Post AJTJv6CCJGIb91cTR2 by xurizaemon@toot.cafe
(DIR) More posts by xurizaemon@toot.cafe
(DIR) Post #AJSpuMPlWeh4X2hJlg by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-05-15T03:45:58Z
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I'm a kindergarten coder. I'm mucked around with very some simple BASIC, Pascal, C#, and Python, I know the bare bones of Bash, and I once learned enough Git to be dangerous. If I want to earn a living from programming, what are the essential skills and knowledge I'd need to spend some time learning to be useful to an employer?#AskFediverse #programming
(DIR) Post #AJSwJlTE6aWbCooUPg by mark@tech.lgbt
2022-05-15T04:57:38Z
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@strypey Depends on the employer. For me in the statistics world it's R, SAS, and SQL.Some software companies live in completely different worlds to each other, each with a different paradigm of choice. My friend (an experienced developer) was recently job-hunting and avoided all the employers looking for Microsoft skills in favour of the languages and libraries he's already good at.
(DIR) Post #AJSxrjglKsjpTouJZw by mark@tech.lgbt
2022-05-15T05:01:03Z
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@strypey Awareness of basic concepts goes a long way (for example version control, objects, functions, readable code, data structures, the pros and cons of different tools).
(DIR) Post #AJSxrk7Lk20OoHLY1I by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-05-15T05:15:09Z
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@mark I grok most of that, although on the final point, my knowledge is entirely 2nd-hand. I'm in a catch-22, in that the job listings I see require a level of relevant experience, but the only way to get such experience is in a job. Ideally I need to find an entry-level job with an employer who's willing to tolerate lower productivity while I upskill. But these seem rare as hen's teeth these days. I guess imposter syndrome could be holding me back from applying for jobs I could actually get?
(DIR) Post #AJSyGrJE8leGLzsWCO by mark@tech.lgbt
2022-05-15T05:19:38Z
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@strypey It could be worth going out on a limb. Developers are in short supply. A bit of intelligence and willingness to learn could be enough. Recruiters go crazy at the barest hint of a developer.
(DIR) Post #AJT03xxSJCYZ7PfuCG by tetrislife@qoto.org
2022-05-15T05:39:42Z
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@strypey I am assuming you will try working remotely first. A LinkedIn profile? (nobody bash me up for making a practical point - I too know a GAFAM silo is anti-thetical to society and ethics) And a couple of useful projects on Github? (nobody ...)You say you don't have experience, but there seem to be lot of people around with messy experience so it is not a big drawback. C# and Python are already solid keywords, maybe mention of their ecosystem is missing? Say, Django exposure or .Net foundation or something?You only need to land 1 job first!
(DIR) Post #AJT2ZoZovIEhCLvyPw by Br3nda@cloudisland.nz
2022-05-15T06:07:49Z
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@strypey it's less about language and more about methodology. Knowing how to write code that the next coder will understand because you used terminology they recognise. Like models and regression tests and seperation of concern leading to repeatability.
(DIR) Post #AJT4G9BMnnRTDpFHvM by isaacfreeman@cloudisland.nz
2022-05-15T06:26:39Z
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@strypey It sounds like you know the general principles of programming and could pick up another language quickly.From there, a company will be looking for experience in their domain: web development, iOS/Android, embedded firmware, devops… whatever area of programming they’re hiring people to do, they’ll want to know you have some familiarity. Not just for your existing skills, but to be sure you like that field enough to stick around.
(DIR) Post #AJTF8taJUiQaJceup6 by harald@hub.volse.no
2022-05-15T07:59:55Z
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@Strypey That will depend very much on what kind of software that employer is making. A typical webdev shop will require pretty much the exact opposite of a shop making small embedded devices for industrial control systems.Essential skills that everybody needs is a good understanding of version control. If you know your way around the most common workflows of Git, you're good!You also seem to have been exposed to enough languages to have figured out they are mostly just different ways to express the same ideas.Learning more languages is never wrong, but if you have a favourite among the ones you already know, try learning it well. Learn it's idioms, common ways of doing common tasks, etc. Also a overview of common data structures, lists, heaps, stacks, queues, etc and when to use them is always useful. And while it's good to know how to implement each of them, you'll probably never need to in a real job (unless you end up doing embedded systems for industrial control. :)In short, you may already know enough to be useful. If you see a job you think could be interesting, give it a try and apply for it.Good luck!
(DIR) Post #AJTF8tvwCJj1OgmBWq by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-05-15T08:28:34Z
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@haraldThis is such valuable feedback. Thanks so much for the time and thought you put into this post!
(DIR) Post #AJTFRYn51x6pKGWwr2 by LovesTha@floss.social
2022-05-15T08:32:03Z
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@strypey a domain. It sounds like you have enough knowledge of programming to be useful somewhere.Find something in your job history that has applicability to some industry and search in that domain. I needed as much programming as I did to land the more senior role that I did, but they would have hired me in some role because I had a safety background.
(DIR) Post #AJTFtOcoQ4SFuF07Tk by xurizaemon@toot.cafe
2022-05-15T05:59:55Z
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@mark @strypey most local tech communities seem to have a #jobs channel where you could see what skills are in demand (i hang out in a few, and I'm sure there are plenty more)I wonder if/what (tech?) worker coops exist in AotearoaI believe you have strong organisational skills which might suit employers or other orgs alongside/instead of a dev role (should you/they consider yr dev skills insufficient)
(DIR) Post #AJTFtP5WhJQJLIR3Ee by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-05-15T08:37:07Z
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@xurizaemon> I wonder if/what (tech?) worker coops exist in AotearoaMe too. I'm only aware of Loomio and I get the impression they've got enough staff. I'd be willing to have another go at starting one, but maybe a consumer-owned platform that hires tech staff, rather than a worker-owned one. But I've seen plenty of overseas evidence of either being workable.@mark
(DIR) Post #AJTFtPMXg32CC4Odl2 by xurizaemon@toot.cafe
2022-05-15T06:03:43Z
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@mark @strypey i feel like "there's lots of demand for $tech-x" type answers are not good cos ppl will have wildly different experience of any tech-x valueIt really has to be something which gels for you somehow, familiarity helps but so does having the technology click(& for you I suspect the employer too - i wouldn't expect you to last long at an adtech co! That's a compliment)Likely also helps if it's accessible to get experience!
(DIR) Post #AJTFtPzBMNwW7uTUzA by xurizaemon@toot.cafe
2022-05-15T06:05:21Z
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@mark @strypey i mean, i hope you get good answers all the same, i just don't think "there's heaps of work in React Native" is such a useful response?
(DIR) Post #AJTFtQcsylha733Cs4 by xurizaemon@toot.cafe
2022-05-15T06:09:59Z
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@mark @strypey that said i would def spec out my character with a few points into GitA little bit of issue queue triage on OSS projects might be accessible for an organiser type. "Maintainer, can i help weed the queue?"Dev roles are way more than writing code (you know that I'm sure). Knowing how to configure
(DIR) Post #AJTFtREohk2k0gnUzg by xurizaemon@toot.cafe
2022-05-15T06:11:56Z
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@mark @strypey (bumped)tools is great (if the tool is something you can get paid to configure), fundamentals of web, a11y. Just spouting now EOF
(DIR) Post #AJTG1UmPQ6PXJNLs8G by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-05-15T08:38:11Z
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@xurizaemon> i hang out in a fewHow do I join these?@mark
(DIR) Post #AJTG8q1ip40rEd11fc by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-05-15T08:39:40Z
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@xurizaemonThis is really feedback feedback, thanks :) @mark
(DIR) Post #AJTGGFKj8EwdkURBWC by Br3nda@cloudisland.nz
2022-05-15T06:11:32Z
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@strypey so I think start somewhere u can get mentoring. You can write working code on your own but once it gets bigger it becomes an indecipherable to others without common concepts.
(DIR) Post #AJTGGFjtcf4t0YDHkW by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-05-15T08:41:11Z
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@Br3nda> start somewhere u can get mentoringThat's a good idea, thanks. Any suggestions on how to find a mentor?
(DIR) Post #AJTH3bJ6DrqE5ZD5oe by Br3nda@cloudisland.nz
2022-05-15T08:50:07Z
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@strypey usually this happens on the job. At a good employer who sees the value in training
(DIR) Post #AJTHXl2maNuWyTxT0K by lightweight@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-05-15T08:54:23Z
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@strypey ultimately, you need some evidence (both for your own edification and to convince a potential colleague) of your sound judgment and ability to learn what you need to know. I suspect you're better equipped than many to do that. I know of more than a couple career 'kindergarten coder' who've done very well by showing good judgment, managing expectations, and delivering on what they've promised. Maybe I'm one of them, hard to say ;)
(DIR) Post #AJTI3ROfAWO5J5IfmS by lightweight@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-05-15T09:00:12Z
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@strypey @mark to be honest, when I was hiring devs, one of the things I looked for in prospective employees was imposter syndrome. I'd always pick someone like that over someone who was overly confident. I know (as one of them) that the former will do what it takes to learn what they need to know.
(DIR) Post #AJTIqYy3oCzIyeHRCq by xurizaemon@toot.cafe
2022-05-15T09:10:02Z
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@strypey @markThis is a bit like recommending a tech but I'm recommending a community, so ymmv and you should look for others matching your tastes!- https://github.com/thisdot/tech-community-slacks#-new-zealand- https://python.nz/ (idk if there's a chat?)- there's an NZ DevOps slack?- local meetups if they exist- https://drupal.org/slack- https://chat.civicrm.org
(DIR) Post #AJTJdaHdhnMzFPoU8u by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-05-15T09:19:04Z
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@xurizaemon oops, I meant great feedback, can't even blame autocucumber for that fail 😂@mark
(DIR) Post #AJTJv6CCJGIb91cTR2 by xurizaemon@toot.cafe
2022-05-15T09:11:01Z
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@strypey @mark std disclaimers re slack, meetup etc - i say go where the community is
(DIR) Post #AJTJv6XT2BJSCzZSaW by xurizaemon@toot.cafe
2022-05-15T09:11:13Z
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@strypey @mark except Facebook
(DIR) Post #AJTJv6rJqNBzCYrJWy by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-05-15T09:22:15Z
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@xurizaemonJust out of curiosity, why draw the line at FB? @mark
(DIR) Post #AJTL5Iiuge1sqfLnqy by xurizaemon@toot.cafe
2022-05-15T09:35:06Z
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@strypey @mark draw the line where it suits you too :)
(DIR) Post #AJTQuy0xQWojRxFKZU by markusl@fosstodon.org
2022-05-15T10:40:33Z
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@strypey Chin up. 🙂 Everyone who has a dev job today, including me, got into the market with no previous commercial experience. The jobs are out there, if you can find them.I don't know your age and salary requirements, but some companies (including my employer) recruit graduate software engineers, who are there to learn as much as to contribute, and who rise through the ranks if they show aptitude. That might be a way in for you.1/n@mark
(DIR) Post #AJU0aYV6Aq2ksVuXIm by vertigo@hackers.town
2022-05-15T15:04:01Z
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@strypey These are based on my experience being in the field for over 30 years. You'll note the lack of mention of any particular programming languages or other "hard" skills. I had to learn a lot of this stuff the hard way.More than anything else, you should to know how to work in a team setting.Written and spoken language skills in a diverse setting are vital. Especially practice learning patience when working with employees in other time zones or countries. Programmers in India, for example, have a different style of communicating and set of expectations than, say, programmers in Israel, Argentina, or China. Accents frequently make it hard to understand one another, especially over laggy network connections that interfere with videoconferencing systems.Speaking of which, teleconferencing systems are a lot like ham radio. People frequently muffle their microphone, or do things which generates a ton of background noise, which can make hearing people difficult. Experience getting the signal out of the noise it's extremely handy. When that becomes impossible to do, practice tact in informing them of the problem, and try again. Key word here is have patience!Finally, having sympathy for your fellow teammates is a biggie. Know when to identify when they're having problems, and be willing to volunteer to help them out. Don't just assume they will figure it out for themselves beyond a certain period of time). Learn to ask for help yourself as well; your fellow team members might lack in empathy in their own ways too. BUT... Be mindful! Everyone had their own plate of stuff to get done. Like all skills, it takes experience to learn the balancing act.The hard skills are pretty easy. Once you acquire and refine the soft skills, though, you'll find that your work experience becomes much more comfortable, and you'll be called as an individual contributor much more than someone who doesn't have as much soft skills experience.
(DIR) Post #AJU0aZNgtriDbpS8OW by EdS@mastodon.sdf.org
2022-05-15T17:20:36Z
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Great thread. I'd suggest making contributions to open source projects: that's learning how to, and demonstrating that you can, work with other people. Creating tickets, engaging in discussion, submitting pull requests and having them accepted.For employment purposes, probably good to pick one language and try to get a bit better at it.Python might be the best choice, of the ones you list. It's a healthy community too, at least here in UK.@vertigo @strypey
(DIR) Post #AJU6aFbd1VCc0DCeQa by highfellow@social.tchncs.de
2022-05-15T18:27:22Z
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@strypey I am in a similar position to you skills wise so I can't speak with authority, but I read a book recently called the pragmatic programmer which seemed to have good advice on the tools you'd need and the attitude and philosophy that would help if you want to work as a programmer. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5wBQEp6ruIAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=pragmatic+programmer+goodreads&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi-3_DjkOL3AhVcQEEAHSUcCRoQ6AF6BAgMEAM#v=onepage&q&f=false
(DIR) Post #AJUiUCVZQLxqupuaIa by xurizaemon@toot.cafe
2022-05-15T09:46:08Z
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@strypey @mark that last thought was me joking 😃
(DIR) Post #AJUiUCrY6dXs10C8Ya by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-05-16T01:32:15Z
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@xurizaemonFair enough :) I'm aware that it's an arbitrary line, that each person has to draw for themselves. I was just wondering what it is about FB that puts it beyond the pale for you. I can guess but I'd be interested in any thoughts you're willing to share on the subject.@mark
(DIR) Post #AJUmMkfqubpKNZQNuK by xurizaemon@toot.cafe
2022-05-16T02:15:37Z
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@strypey @mark nah, just jokes - don't really find conversations about which services are terrible or acceptable are productive discussions for me, so i will nope out of them.
(DIR) Post #AJUmY9vZMPUBt3DQ3s by xurizaemon@toot.cafe
2022-05-16T02:17:19Z
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@strypey @mark On tech communities my take is: go where the community is.Like going to gigs where you know the bar owner is a dick. We're not there for the owner but for the community, so we achieve more walking in the door.To focus on "but $SERVICE is evil" means the practical result is likely to be missing out on community.That said, there are still services I find too much, and as you say: which flips that bit for each of us is arbitrary/complex
(DIR) Post #AJW1VgE8VZivfD8U3U by highfellow@social.tchncs.de
2022-05-16T16:39:54Z
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@strypey @xurizaemon @mark do you know the book 'ours to hack and to own'? It's about coops in the tech sector. It might give you some ideas. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/31548242-ours-to-hack-and-to-own
(DIR) Post #AJZGHuyOy0qO8AYGTg by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-05-18T06:04:27Z
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@highfellowAe, great book. I read most of it a few years ago and met both the editors at conferences since then. @xurizaemon @mark
(DIR) Post #AJZJCdzYyWaVsYGuQq by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2022-05-18T06:42:32Z
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@xurizaemon> which flips that bit for each of us is arbitrary/complexIndeed. FB is a bridge too far for me too. But in China it was socially impossible not to use WeChat (I tried for a year ;) and I used Didi too (ride-hailing service). I draw the line at installing proprietary software on my Trisquel systems. But I'll hold my nose and use most things that work in a browser if the community is worth it (eg the Cashless crew use Discord).@mark