Post AJDnQBYaDS3CtFuHaq by Properal@liberdon.com
(DIR) More posts by Properal@liberdon.com
(DIR) Post #AJDHJWo5c4r8EgwR8K by Properal@liberdon.com
2022-05-07T15:28:08Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
(DIR) Post #AJDHJYJg07iUuwjB0S by Properal@liberdon.com
2022-05-07T15:29:26Z
0 likes, 2 repeats
Wait wasn't the alcohol poisoned by regulators?
(DIR) Post #AJDHaRq9KgnjkqyOTw by Pagliano@kiwifarms.cc
2022-05-07T15:41:00.704984Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Properal there's a lot of ways to fuck up distilling toothat being said, the danger of poisoning is not the principal reason why distilling is so heavily regulatedone of my family members keeps telling me about a book called "A Libertarian Walks Into A Bear" or something, which was apparently about an attempt at a full-on ayn rand no-government town in new hampshire, but some retard decided to feed the bears and then the bears started fucking with everybody or something
(DIR) Post #AJDJYRHGeZINL4pLG4 by akeno@liberdon.com
2022-05-07T16:03:02Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Properal Did they blame this one on "infectious diseases" too?
(DIR) Post #AJDK26bk4FNHv7Y9zM by Properal@liberdon.com
2022-05-07T15:56:40Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Pagliano That book is about a bunch of city slickers moving to a small town, feeding wild bears, and causing a nuisance. It's not really about libertarianism.
(DIR) Post #AJDK270CbIwN8yzh7A by Pagliano@kiwifarms.cc
2022-05-07T16:08:24.407130Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Properal what i was told was that it was an example of what happens when attempts at a no-government approach to society collides with the ability of a few humans to fuck up their surrounding ecosystem in unexpected ways for everybody elsei like libertarianism as an opposing force to government, for the same reason i like conservatism: government has a very strong tendency to forget its constituents and shift its focus toward self-preservation, preying on the people it's supposed to serve in order to enrich the governing class, and continued resistance against government expansion can slow the rotbut governments do need to exist, because no matter what you do to try to make people capable of self-government, they'll inevitably trend toward ignorance and degeneracy as long as there aren't immediate direct consequencesit's an interesting societal problem to work out
(DIR) Post #AJDP7WjMrzJ89rWNvc by Properal@liberdon.com
2022-05-07T16:56:48Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Pagliano Governments often remove consequences. In the poison example above the government officials were not held accountable for killing 10,000 people and to this day people blame libertarianism for those deaths.Voters, politicians, lobbyists, judges, bureaucrats, policemen— almost never bear much of the cost of their actions or receive much of the benefit.http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Machinery_3d_Edition/Market%20Failure.htm
(DIR) Post #AJDP7X4zZabZEvdedM by Properal@liberdon.com
2022-05-07T17:00:19Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Pagliano I accidentally deleted my post. I tried to recreate it. I think this was a response to my post:https://liberdon.com/web/@Pagliano@kiwifarms.cc/108261706276696376
(DIR) Post #AJDP7XPYL93GGhG4gK by Pagliano@kiwifarms.cc
2022-05-07T17:05:25.171672Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Properal yeah this is what you posted
(DIR) Post #AJDcKYj83fhhW9xDaS by Properal@liberdon.com
2022-05-07T19:17:59Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Pagliano The bear example shows the problems of government ownership of animals. The tragedy of the commons. Rural people have adopted customs to mitigate the problems. They often shoot dogs that chase deer, shoot predators that predate livestock, don't feed bears, poach... Urbanites that move out to the countryside often clash with these norms. This often results in demands for government regulation to solve problems that private ownership would mitigate.
(DIR) Post #AJDcKZAmOrp0tutIga by Pagliano@kiwifarms.cc
2022-05-07T19:33:26.544264Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Properal any time people move to a new area, it's on them to gain an understanding of the local ecosystem in order to not fuck it up either by feeding the bears, killing every single bear, or releasing bear-killing poison death toads into the wild and letting them breed out of controlwhen europeans came to north america, they very often exploited the mammal populations for furs, extincting the sea mink and very nearly extincting beavers and other shit, passenger pigeons were obliterated as well and buffalo very nearly went extinct, due to overexploitation by people to whom it was a living and didn't care about the long termand even before the europeans, the american indians hunted all the horses to extinction, never rode them until they were reintroduced by europeanswhen a bunch of outsiders show up to an established system, there's always disruption, mitigating it is a pain in the ass so yes, people often get all "wouldn't it be nice if there was a SYSTEM"and then surprise the system doesn't fucking work either
(DIR) Post #AJDnQBYaDS3CtFuHaq by Properal@liberdon.com
2022-05-07T21:12:57Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Pagliano Yes, sometimes systems need to change. One of the most famous papers on property rights references a Native American tribe that transitioned from common ownership of hunting territories to private ownership to address over hunting that came with the advent of the fur market.https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/9780230523210_9
(DIR) Post #AJDnQBvyoSlY3oqy3s by Pagliano@kiwifarms.cc
2022-05-07T21:37:41.811541Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Properal uhhhhhh
(DIR) Post #AJDr8UBac8zRGty2fw by Properal@liberdon.com
2022-05-07T22:19:11Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Pagliano Link to PDF: https://edisciplinas.usp.br/pluginfile.php/4125701/mod_resource/content/1/demsetz.pdfYou can use Google schalar to get around many paywalls: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C38&q=Toward+a+Theory+of+Property+Rights+Harold+Demsetz+&btnG=
(DIR) Post #AJDrXckBvsP93O8fui by Pagliano@kiwifarms.cc
2022-05-07T22:23:53.022842Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Properal thanks fren, will read laternever mind the impersonator, he's one of the strange recurring phenomena that occur over on kiwifarmsours is a magical realm
(DIR) Post #AJEc1j4TZJ6LFvv0vA by Pagliano@kiwifarms.cc
2022-05-08T07:04:44.981556Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Properal i read over it, it's kind of dense in terms of wording in the way that i generally see from papers like that: lots of talk about externalities, etcbut i see what it was getting at with property ownership and communal property, and i liked the discussion, though i note that it didn't really have an explanation as to what's to be done when activities on one property are causing a lot of shit to other properties: damming a waterway was one instance, as was this:The reduction in negotiating cost that accompanies the private right toexclude others allows most externalities to be internalized at rather low cost. Thosethat are not are associated with activities that generate external effects impingingupon many people. The soot from smoke affects many homeowners, none of whomis willing to pay enough to the factory to get its owner to reduce smoke output. Allhomeowners together might be willing to pay enough, but the cost of their gettingtogether may be enough to discourage effective market bargaining. The negotiatingproblem is compounded even more if the smoke comes not from a single smokestack but from an industrial district. In such cases, it may be too costly to internalizeeffects through the marketplace.even in the discussion of natives defining separate hunting territories for themselves, trouble arises if someone decides to mess around for the sake of personal enrichment (e.g. take active measures to lure prey off his neighbors' territories and onto his own, without directly trespassing) -- you run into the issue that people will try to fuck with each other in order to get ahead, which is one of the fundamental issues with human nature that needs to be understood and kept in check
(DIR) Post #AJFVhJc26noJwFSVay by Properal@liberdon.com
2022-05-08T14:35:04Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Pagliano Yes, dispersed costs and concentrated benefits is a challenge. However it is a huge challenge for government:https://youtu.be/mgJ644LPL6gI suspect the tort system actually worked to punish polluters despite this challenge because progressives hampered laws suits against polluters in the name of allowing the progress of industrialization. Regulations protect polluters from lawsuits.https://youtu.be/Fxhk4FuU0YQ
(DIR) Post #AJFZzZouzEslEeRtZ2 by Pagliano@kiwifarms.cc
2022-05-08T18:16:39.883237Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Properal regulations have a strong tendency to be pushed for by big businesses who can bear the burden, fucking over small businesses that can’tgoing back to the original example of distilled spirits, i suspect that the principal force maintaining the ruinous degree of regulation on home distilling is the liquor lobbylike, stills are dangerous if built/operated incorrectly, and if you don’t know what you’re doing you can produce tainted moonshine too, but i very much doubt that’s the actual principal reason for all the red tape