Post AIseyTosFBCdmHlanw by binarycat@pleroma.envs.net
(DIR) More posts by binarycat@pleroma.envs.net
(DIR) Post #AIseyTosFBCdmHlanw by binarycat@pleroma.envs.net
2022-04-27T16:54:07.332792Z
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imo object-oriented stuff makes more sense for storage and database stuff than for logic
(DIR) Post #AIx0mhXoMfw2UePjii by IceWolf@meow.social
2022-04-29T18:54:08Z
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@binarycat Honestly we like it for UI. Things like a VisualizerView class in our music visualizer, for instance.
(DIR) Post #AIx0miHtbKnYnZyXYG by binarycat@pleroma.envs.net
2022-04-29T19:17:19.414548Z
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@IceWolf imo we still don’t really have a great paradigm for UI.OOP helps a bit, UI is a fairly nice use for a lot of OOP features, however it’s very easy to get problems with redundant data if you aren’t careful.handcrafted UIs have the potential to be very effecient, and usually have less potential to get in weird states (eg. opening a menu multiple times), but usually have less accessibility features.honestly, i think part of the problem is the interfaces that libraries have to fit within, plan9’s devdraw seems to be the only one that’s kinda decent to work with directly, things like X11 almost require being wrapped in a higher level abstraction.
(DIR) Post #AIx0mjSvDpDES48rNQ by IceWolf@meow.social
2022-04-29T18:54:42Z
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@binarycat Definitely not "everything must be inside an object", though!(Java is really weird about this.)
(DIR) Post #AIx29LzEmW8wFRbk4e by LunaDragofelis@embracing.space
2022-04-29T19:20:48Z
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@binarycat @IceWolf An idea for an UI paradigm I had is describing the data and typessuch as "input file" or "editable text" or "changing picture"
(DIR) Post #AIx29MhC95IyRmAqae by IceWolf@meow.social
2022-04-29T19:21:20Z
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@LunaDragofelis @binarycat Declarative UI would be cool!Apple's doing that with SwiftUI, but it's proprietary.
(DIR) Post #AIx29NUpAZ0IvhOTwm by IceWolf@meow.social
2022-04-29T19:21:45Z
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@LunaDragofelis @binarycat (note: we know zip about SwiftUI beyond "it's declarative", it may not be like that.)
(DIR) Post #AIx29OEYQXaFDWn0E4 by IceWolf@meow.social
2022-04-29T19:22:09Z
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@LunaDragofelis @binarycat oh!! And HTML is basically this!
(DIR) Post #AIx29Owrln1rQxWOIK by binarycat@pleroma.envs.net
2022-04-29T19:32:35.026957Z
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@IceWolf @LunaDragofelis the problem with HTML is that a lot of people completely ignore all the semantic aspects, and just see it as a way to put pixels on the screen the way they want.this is why you get websites almost entirely built out of <div>, despite the fact that there are more specific elements that have the intended semantics.theoretically, with XHTML and semantic markup, you would need a lot less APIs, as you could just pull out the desired data with a simple XPATH expression.however, semantic markup is not easy, so many people don’t even try.
(DIR) Post #AIx36PSDX7cu5UK51E by IceWolf@meow.social
2022-04-29T19:35:17Z
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@binarycat @LunaDragofelis It's not all that hard it you're writing your HTML by paw... then again, I don't know how common that is >,,>
(DIR) Post #AIx36Q0xRxPppEZpAW by binarycat@pleroma.envs.net
2022-04-29T19:43:18.417491Z
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@IceWolf @LunaDragofelis well, there’s a lot of different HTML tags, and they often have overlapping semantics, <nav> vs. <menu> vs. <header>. and with XHTML, this is even worse, as you can pull in entire separate markup languages, which are quite likely to have elements with overlapping semantics.
(DIR) Post #AIx3BQJ5n27OBFRgTQ by LunaDragofelis@embracing.space
2022-04-29T19:38:35Z
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@IceWolf @binarycat more websites should look like this https://www.davros.org/rail/culg/pretty much plain HTML, easy to read on mobile and desktopwould be even better if there was more support for user-side styling instead of CSS being expected to come from the server
(DIR) Post #AIx3BQv1W0SY4tByb2 by topaz@meow.social
2022-04-29T19:39:40Z
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@LunaDragofelis @IceWolf @binarycat How's our commissions page? https://brightfur.net/commissions
(DIR) Post #AIx3BRVtIvwxvERQ3s by LunaDragofelis@embracing.space
2022-04-29T19:42:02Z
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@topaz @IceWolf @binarycat it's definitely not badI like the bold charm of unstyled webpages though
(DIR) Post #AIx3BRsZwa693b3XQO by root@moth.zone
2022-04-29T19:43:30.977681Z
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@LunaDragofelis @topaz @IceWolf @binarycat i think everyone should look at their website unstyled to make sure it's acceptable. it's a good accessiblity thing
(DIR) Post #AIx3HnmVQRLeirFFey by binarycat@pleroma.envs.net
2022-04-29T19:45:22.551533Z
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@root @LunaDragofelis @IceWolf @topaz as someone who used 9front as their primary OS for a good while, i would very much appreciate this…
(DIR) Post #AIx3Izt7tkc6YouaFk by topaz@meow.social
2022-04-29T19:45:09Z
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@root @binarycat @IceWolf @LunaDragofelis The amount of times CSS on a corporate website hasn't loaded and we've gotten HUUUUGE little icon-font-type icons taking up the whole screen...
(DIR) Post #AIx4Lusx3T3frqmmI4 by topaz@meow.social
2022-04-29T19:45:58Z
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@root @binarycat @IceWolf @LunaDragofelis Our commissions page actually looks quite nice unstyled, it turns out, although the reference images are a little bit bigger than maybe they should be. And the size varies, because the image size varies.
(DIR) Post #AIx6rZltI6rjYihugC by Seirdy@pleroma.envs.net
2022-04-29T20:15:34.497535Z
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@root @LunaDragofelis @IceWolf @topaz @topaz Thing is, there actually are some style overrides you should do for accessibility: see the “inaccessible default stylesheets” section of this thing I wrote [1]The WCAG also recommends increased line spacing and decreased line length for readability.One test I recommend is generating PDFs using pandoc and xetex. Run this command to generate a PDF from a webpage, ignoring CSS:pandoc -f html -t pdf -o out.pdf -s --pdf-engine xelatex --citeproc $URL[1]: @binarycat: You can take a look at that page’s source; I hope it’s a good example of semantic HTML, microdata, microformats (none of the classnames except “unstyled-list” and “pix” are used by CSS, they’re only there for microformats parsers), and proper use of ARIA. Should look good in lynx, links, and pandoc; w3m has a bug that causes it to render soft hyphens, which I include for narrow-viewport compatibility. <header>, <nav>, and <menu> most certainly are not the same thing; assistive technologies treat them very differently, and that distinction is really useful!
(DIR) Post #AIx6racM92piBRFoSO by binarycat@pleroma.envs.net
2022-04-29T20:25:26.438236Z
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@Seirdy @topaz @IceWolf @LunaDragofelis @root yes, those those elements are different, but it is not immediately obvious how so. these are far from the only tags that this applies too. some people prolly aren’t even aware of all of these.
(DIR) Post #AIx7SMyroFZkbVJz5U by Seirdy@pleroma.envs.net
2022-04-29T20:28:28.414870Z
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@binarycat @IceWolf @LunaDragofelis @root @topaz I mean, it says so quite clearly in the spec.The WHATWG made a version of the spec specifically for webdevs, and the "elements of HTML" section is something every web page author should have a look through: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/dev/semantics.html#semantics
(DIR) Post #AIx7SNm8r2zV4KNKtM by Seirdy@pleroma.envs.net
2022-04-29T20:29:50.594500Z
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@binarycat @IceWolf @LunaDragofelis @root @topaz You can also see the difference right in your browser devtools if you check the accessibility tree: they all have different roles.
(DIR) Post #AIx7SOKAoWDGlsIVw8 by binarycat@pleroma.envs.net
2022-04-29T20:32:05.277527Z
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@Seirdy @IceWolf @LunaDragofelis @root @topaz my point is not that it is too complicated and should be made simpler somehow. my point is that creating good semantic markup requires considering a bunch of different things, and i think that’s part of why it isn’t super popular.
(DIR) Post #AIxP0oeJ8ywTTyiSAa by Seirdy@pleroma.envs.net
2022-04-29T23:41:45.338312Z
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@binarycat @IceWolf @LunaDragofelis @root @topaz Hmm, I think I get what you're saying; I'm just not sure header/nav/menu was the best example since they serve such different purposes.One area of confusion for me was where to <aside> rather than <section>. I decided that the best use for <aside> was for non-sectioning content that is tangential to <main>, at the same DOM level as <main> or as a top-level child of it.Honestly understanding ARIA (and the first rule of ARIA) makes HTML a lot easier.