Post AIPxHe1oV14MZAzL3Q by oklomsy@social.linux.pizza
(DIR) More posts by oklomsy@social.linux.pizza
(DIR) Post #AIPuF39eK8YrlNizNA by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-04-13T19:58:33Z
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Second reminder that DRM is effective.No reasonable anti-DRM activist would use lack of effectiveness as an argument against it, because it's very effective. If you don't believe me, it's because you can't see the wider picture.
(DIR) Post #AIPua4cm3R4uP2N9Ae by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-04-13T20:02:21Z
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@Lazol No problem, myopic federated replier!
(DIR) Post #AIPv3lLOIq3zIFOlAe by alcinnz@floss.social
2022-04-13T20:07:36Z
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@avalos It's been really effective in establishing a culture where most are happy to stream everything, making those of us saying that doesn't suit our media viewing habits look unreasonable!It's been really effective at making streaming-only appear to be the natural way to publish things online, with even explicit anti-capitalists not seeing how this is a fundamentally capitalist viewpoint!
(DIR) Post #AIPv6AWtdOndz4vYI4 by be@floss.social
2022-04-13T20:08:09Z
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@avalos It only has to be a deterrent for most people. That it can be easily bypassed by people who try doesn't matter much in the big picture.
(DIR) Post #AIPvU6w2eMgFmo6aW0 by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-04-13T20:12:29Z
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@alcinnz Exactly! It has a lot to do with the culture they helped establish, but also has to do with the way they exploit people's lack of time, energy and tech know-how.
(DIR) Post #AIPvZVc6K8mTlyLtRY by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-04-13T20:13:28Z
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@be Keyword: most people. That's enough to make rich people happy.
(DIR) Post #AIPvjcNw0D09fbXvua by niconiconi@cybre.space
2022-04-13T20:15:15Z
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@avalos I think that depends on your definition of "effectiveness". Is patching a C program an "effective" way to ensure system security? Depending on who you ask, the answer can be "Yes" (it blocks known exploits) or "Never was, and never will be." (it does nothing to stop the same type of exploitation from reoccurring, only mitigations and security audits can bring improvements).Same is true for DRM. Does it force people to go through a difficult reverse engineering process? Yes. But does it ever successfully stop the duplication of a copyrighted Blu-ray movie in the long run? Never.
(DIR) Post #AIPwDgv1i71oQ1MgHQ by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-04-13T20:20:43Z
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@niconiconi You're totally right. That's what I mean by “the bigger picture.” Even if it's possible to illegally make copies of DRM'd content, those who know where and how to get them are a minority, and most of them would rather pay a monthly subscription because it's easier and more comfy. That's the wider picture.
(DIR) Post #AIPwIZge1gYrR9xyQi by josias@floss.social
2022-04-13T20:21:28Z
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@avalos @be This is why I think we should make methods of breaking DRM more accessible, and improve the distribution of DRM-removed media (unauthorized copying). But that might just make them even more aggressive.
(DIR) Post #AIPwjWUi0ItPM2EXJo by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-04-13T20:26:28Z
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@josias @be The moment everyone knows about torrents, is the moment when DRM will actually turn ineffective.No, wait, there are some missing factors: convenience, storage and Internet speeds.
(DIR) Post #AIPxHe1oV14MZAzL3Q by oklomsy@social.linux.pizza
2022-04-13T20:32:30Z
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@avalos @josias @be But these are all improving. ISPs are investing in higher speeds for consumers, customers are buying computers with more storage then they will ever need, and software developers are improving their software in terms of convenience It's inevitable that torrenting will become an actual convenient way of distributing files.
(DIR) Post #AIPxKEXZibXqO14xm4 by alcinnz@floss.social
2022-04-13T20:33:06Z
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@avalos @josias @be What I advocate: Help entertainment which deserves to succeed but lacks the advertising budget get popular amongst even people who don't care that it's DRM-free! There's a convenience factor here too...Undermine the messaging that DRM's necessary for funding this creative work!I very much worry that the "piracy" route only reinforces the ideology behind these laws.
(DIR) Post #AIPxdoPOaOL78CaZZQ by josias@floss.social
2022-04-13T20:36:37Z
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@avalos @be Convenience is surmountable. I've been casually working on designing a system that improves the convenience of such systems.As for storage and Internet speeds, I think torrents already have a solution for this. People can download a lower-resolution version and upload less if they are unable. Those with surplus use that to share with those who are limited."Streaming" torrents is particularly useful here, since the whole torrent doesn't necessarily need to be stored on disk.
(DIR) Post #AIPzpgSWAUELrKq0yu by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-04-13T21:01:12Z
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@oklomsy @josias @be > It's inevitable that torrenting will become an actual convenient way of distributing files.Well, when that happens, there's no doubt DRM will become ineffective.
(DIR) Post #AIQ0FEWWeacakSta8u by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-04-13T21:05:49Z
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@alcinnz @josias @be > Undermine the messaging that DRM's necessary for funding this creative work!Isn't it necessary, though? If our point about DRM being effective is true, then I'd assume DRM actually helps producers earn more money than they would without it.What we need to analyze here is whether the amount of money they earn without DRM actually gives them enough margins after the production and distribution costs.> I very much worry that the "piracy" route only reinforces the ideology behind these laws.Agreed.
(DIR) Post #AIQ0eDTvfFvukyaseO by josias@floss.social
2022-04-13T20:41:31Z
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@alcinnz @avalos @be Indie media is incredibly helpful, and I believe it should be celebrated and normalized a whole lot more.As for "piracy", I don't believe we should avoid resisting something just because someone will use that resistance to convince people to push back harder. That just discourages doing anything to resist.Instead, maybe we should use this to show people that copyright itself must be reformed/abolished, so that they will find it ludicrous to support such laws.
(DIR) Post #AIQ0eE2fa5iqUiqcng by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-04-13T21:10:19Z
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@josias @alcinnz @be > Instead, maybe we should use this to show people that copyright itself must be reformed/abolished, so that they will find it ludicrous to support such laws.I don't think copyright should be abolished, because it is actually very necessary; but rather reformed so as to become less anti-consumer and anti-culture.
(DIR) Post #AIQ0lUbeOV5NtWfung by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-04-13T21:11:38Z
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@josias @be > "Streaming" torrents is particularly useful hereNow, that sounds interesting, please tell me more.
(DIR) Post #AIQ1HDJEEw6hW0BTfs by alcinnz@floss.social
2022-04-13T21:17:22Z
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@avalos @josias @be I don't know whether it helps them earn *more* money or not given the biases in existing examples. But ultimately what I care about is that they get all the money they need, not all the money they possibly can.I don't have the numbers, but there are some excellent counterexamples showing audioshows at least don't need DRM to achieve top production quality.
(DIR) Post #AIQ1OAoJva4PnF2tTU by antolius@mastodon.social
2022-04-13T21:18:37Z
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@avalos @josias @be This is already true in a lot of places. For example I think more people around me know of the Pirate Bay than of Disney+. Of course techy savvy folks are familiar with the streaming service even if it isn't available in their region. But they also know of torrent. The masses will use what is available to them. Torrent succeeded because it is decentralized. It doesn't incur the same cost as rolling out and operating a streaming service.
(DIR) Post #AIQ28jF2FMFZtpjynA by josias@floss.social
2022-04-13T21:27:02Z
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@avalos @be Instead of downloading the whole torrent, the client downloads sections of it and renders it as it downloads.This strategy can also allow you to "seek" through a torrent and download appropriate fragments. See WebTorrent for an example of this. https://webtorrent.ioMost streaming clients I've seen (like PopcornTime) only delete the downloaded file after the application is closed, but I don't see why you couldn't just store a segment of it in storage-constrained situations.
(DIR) Post #AIQ3UR5wUomfwZP0Ai by be@floss.social
2022-04-13T21:42:09Z
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@avalos @alcinnz @josias DRM is pushed by the same companies that create the economic conditions that make it difficult for artists to sustain themselves with their art, so I think it's absurd to suggest that DRM helps artists get paid.
(DIR) Post #AIQ488wrNqOdFM5VpI by eldaking@weirder.earth
2022-04-13T21:49:20Z
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@avalos Yeah. It is often easy enough to break, but it requires breaking, which is one step too many - enough to be an effective deterrent.It also works particularly well in combination with copyright laws - the "personal" copying that is particularly hard to enforce laws against is hit hardest by inconvenient DRM.
(DIR) Post #AIQ4zH37zieBigM1uy by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-04-13T21:58:57Z
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@be @alcinnz @josias Agreed. The structures created around copyright law are very exploitative and abusive towards artists. What I mean by “DRM is effective” is that it is effective for the actual people making most of the money, not the artists.
(DIR) Post #AIQDyJiNUyKXHfGd0q by TerryHancock@mastodon.art
2022-04-13T23:39:36Z
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@avalos The investors BELIEVE DRM helps them produce more money. Whether this is in fact true or not is far more complex.And note that this compounds: as an artist applying DRM helps you get funded, BECAUSE producers believe it does, NOT because it actually does.Just think of the way the stock market reacts to any kind of change that spooks investors. It's not about the reality, but about the perceptions.@alcinnz @josias @be
(DIR) Post #AIQEAn7bzQolxm1CAC by waweic@chaos.social
2022-04-13T23:41:51Z
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@avalos @josias @be I don't think internet speeds matter a lot here. If they have some effect, it will be easier to torrent something over a long time span and watch it in one piece. Also, concerning storage, 1TB is really, really cheap nowadays, even in solid state form. It will take you quite some time to watch through 1TB of 1080p video
(DIR) Post #AIQEYAytRnPOcd5hsu by TerryHancock@mastodon.art
2022-04-13T23:42:18Z
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@avalos To complicate matters, people with talent are more likely to have produced work in the past. Which means they've already been proselytized into the copyright/DRM cult. It has become a cultural belief within the production centers.Because of this, NOT accepting the belief causes harm to the artists' careers. So they usually go along with it.I know a number of people in the industry who say some pretty nonsensical things about copyright, out of loyalty.@alcinnz @josias @be
(DIR) Post #AIQF3tandJtPxVwjuy by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-04-13T23:51:51Z
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@waweic @josias @be The thing is, most people don't want to wait, so they choose to stream, and nowadays all streaming platforms are DRM'd. Regarding storage, I personally don't think it is cheap enough, especially for people in third-world countries.
(DIR) Post #AIQGNKcpRyXlFuj9Ye by waweic@chaos.social
2022-04-14T00:06:32Z
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@avalos @josias @be In another part of the thread, there was some talk about streaming torrents. I do think that P2P solutions are vastly superior in most cases. Especially with third-world countries, prices per GB can be really, really high if there even is any internet access. Add to that the high price of DRM'd streaming services, if they are available
(DIR) Post #AIQGcdQvnvuDvpSYGe by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-04-14T00:09:19Z
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@waweic @josias @be Yes, I was actually going to mention torrent streaming clients in my reply, but I forgot to do it. Yes, they are great and promising, imo.
(DIR) Post #AIQJgfYm8iq3Y1kBFI by josias@floss.social
2022-04-13T21:46:14Z
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@be @avalos @alcinnz Economic conditions are key here, since the whole reason copyright and DRM exist are because of economic power. The general public would not want DRM, and copyright's primary use has always been to benefit publishers over creators and others.Reforming copyright within the dominant economic system isn't going to fix broader issues, and can even help reinforce (or at least distract from) them.
(DIR) Post #AIQJgg9dveKTOMzci8 by eldaking@weirder.earth
2022-04-13T22:34:01Z
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@josias @be @avalos @alcinnz Copyright exists not so that artists can have rights, but so that they can sell away their rights.
(DIR) Post #AIQJnzj5Ymqa7U3pLs by TerryHancock@mastodon.art
2022-04-13T23:46:37Z
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@avalos The flip side of that is that people who are against DRM tend to be outsiders who haven't proved their artistic merits. And people in the industry tend to conflate the two.It's HARD to get noticed as an artist, let alone succeed. Most people using DRM don't make money, just like most people who don't.Finding the SIGNAL in all that noise isn't easy. So it's very easy for faith-based beliefs to persist.@alcinnz @josias @be
(DIR) Post #AIQJo0EzeAMriQzJ56 by alcinnz@floss.social
2022-04-13T23:51:00Z
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@TerryHancock @avalos @josias @be Some have definitely proved their artistic merits to me! Gregg Taylor's the perfect Batman! Jonathon Simms writes and narrates superb horror!Yes, there's a lot of noise to dig through. That's labor I'm gladly undertaking, given the quality I've been finding...
(DIR) Post #AIQJo0njZ09nSBF3EO by TerryHancock@mastodon.art
2022-04-14T00:08:55Z
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@alcinnz Well, with free content, you do have to dig through your own "slush pile" to find stuff you like.But the "signal" and "noise" I was talking about is the data on whether sales was impacted by DRM use (or not).It's very hard to untangle whether you're not making money because people just take your work without paying, or because they just don't really like your work.For an individual artist, this is virtually impossible. But hard even for the aggregate data.@avalos @josias @be
(DIR) Post #AIQJo1NXPsnTFDze2S by TerryHancock@mastodon.art
2022-04-14T00:12:31Z
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@alcinnz I mean, I have a book that I've sold about 4 or 5 copies of, total, meaning that I still haven't paid off the cost of getting an ISBN.The same book has been downloaded thousands of times from the Internet Archive.But did those thousands of downloads correspond to people reading it? Bots trawling for torrent content? People who just download free stuff and don't read it?No idea. Personal responses suggest maybe a dozen people read it?@avalos @josias @be
(DIR) Post #AIQJoAKK9CZczrYhmK by TerryHancock@mastodon.art
2022-04-14T00:34:09Z
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@alcinnz Point being: how many sales did I "lose", because I didn't restrict access to those who paid for a copy?The way the MPAA/RIAA do the math, I lost over $50,000.But I believe that is grossly inaccurate, of course. I doubt I would've sold much more than I did. Possibly less.Since there is no clear way to find out, people believe what they are predisposed to believe. Or what their employers, friends, investors, etc. believe.@avalos @josias @be
(DIR) Post #AIQKry45mJr251LLvM by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2022-04-14T00:56:46.707430Z
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@TerryHancock @alcinnz @avalos @josias @be Makes me wonder how RIAA/SACEM/GEMA/… (the music ones) does the math for things like public librairies.Context: They're absolutely horrible bloodsucking capitalists when it comes to bars/schools/…As for DRMs effectiveness: From a geek standpoint, they're broken crypto, but it actually doesn't needs to work. Usually just create enough premium for the normal distribution (quick bugfixes, access to online servers, …) and most people will think there is some copy-protection (Steam itself has none, games have to add their own).DRM is just putting a useless lock to deter most people, for the remaining part treats of lawsuits probably works enough.DuhLock.gif
(DIR) Post #AIQbc6uKpfbe5mnuJk by Aman9das@fosstodon.org
2022-04-14T04:04:31Z
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@avalos Proof? I have seen many cracked versions of software and books. Look up archive.org yourself..
(DIR) Post #AIQbvgzGugtPUeRzYe by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-04-14T04:08:05Z
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@Aman9das Yes, they do exist. DRM is as crackable as it is effective. Why? Because as me and others have pointed out in this thread, it serves as a huge deterrent for most people.
(DIR) Post #AIQcQ4OuQXFInRvYRc by Aman9das@fosstodon.org
2022-04-14T04:13:33Z
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@avalos Ok that is indeed true.But wouldn't that be true even without DRM?Paid Open-Source Software works pretty well too. Look into ZorinOS or GOG or paid software on play storethese don't stop you from using the software if you obtain them from illicit means. Yet people are happy to pay.
(DIR) Post #AIQfTPKXMrrCRJAJua by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-04-14T04:47:46Z
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@Aman9das DRM makes copying harder enough that most people don't know how to do it or where to get DRM-free copies from. In this world, those who even know what a torrent is are a small minority.Regarding paid open-source software, what tells you those companies aren't struggling? I'm not saying they are, I'm curious of whether they make enough margins for the devs to not only sustain the project, but also themselves.I'm a huge advocate of free software, so I would love to prove that making enough money out of free software is the rule rather than the exception.
(DIR) Post #AIQfgQhpZ2zkTFGol6 by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-04-14T04:50:08Z
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@Aman9das If anyone knows some good research on the matter, or is interested in producing it, please let me know! I'd love to be part of it.
(DIR) Post #AIQj8wOBezuQhmMvdw by clay@quanta.wiki
2022-04-14T05:28:50.779560Z
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99% of music worth listening to came out before DRM was invented... so the evil law-breakers all downloaded it from Napster in 2002ish. Those sickos are probably enjoying Front 242 right this minute.
(DIR) Post #AIQjjXYEyB9QO1WUpU by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-04-14T05:35:31Z
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@clay > 99% of music worth listening toOops, then I guess everything I listen to isn't actually worth listening to! I will delete it all, thanks so much random internet person!
(DIR) Post #AIQksyGJ83RNmyCDHE by clay@quanta.wiki
2022-04-14T05:48:21.699692Z
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haha. What's the current generation's Van Halen, Rush, or heck even Beetles?? Doesn't exist. But it's not your fault. I mean even all the MATH was mostly invented by Newton. Not every generation of humans can be "great". :)
(DIR) Post #AIQljPEG6yUOU3Eyw4 by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-04-14T05:57:54Z
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@clay You can't seriously think your generation was the last great generation. We can't have Beatles, Rush or Van Halen because things change, times evolve: young people want their own music.
(DIR) Post #AIQmiJ9tIOd1JyEoMq by Aman9das@fosstodon.org
2022-04-14T06:08:54Z
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@avalos look at the zorin charity drive, they generated 30,000 euros in a weekhttps://blog.zorin.com/2022/03/18/thank-you-for-supporting-humanitarian-aid-for-ukraine/
(DIR) Post #AIQn5BHMl19tXmdnt2 by Aman9das@fosstodon.org
2022-04-14T06:13:01Z
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@avalos other notable examples are termux, simple mobile tools, conversations xmpp client.You can ask @donno how much revenue was generated. Really sorry Donno, I didnt know about the 25 dollar deposit 😔