Post AH6HXhmSEMiK2lM2KW by rand@succubi.services
(DIR) More posts by rand@succubi.services
(DIR) Post #AH6FFVJZdjIcGE2ULY by rand@succubi.services
2022-03-05T10:27:05.273Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
wayland sucks, the whole concept sucks, it's gonna cause in a lot of self-invented wheels in the form of "compositors" and they'll have their own quirks and bugswayland feels like yet another example of porting the windows misery to free platformswhy????
(DIR) Post #AH6FFVmzsKppjTnzCy by chjara@mk.absturztau.be
2022-03-05T10:27:33.916Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@rand@succubi.services because X is literally prehistoric technology and really really needs to be replacedbut yeah wayland fucking sucks
(DIR) Post #AH6FHnNjRD00sF4oXg by rand@succubi.services
2022-03-05T10:27:55.626Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@chjara@mk.absturztau.be "if wayland is the solution, I'd like my problem back"
(DIR) Post #AH6H1PKZI6r1YWuUuu by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2022-03-05T10:47:27Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@rand what does any of this have to do with ms windows?
(DIR) Post #AH6HXhmSEMiK2lM2KW by rand@succubi.services
2022-03-05T10:49:01.873Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wolf480pl@mstdn.io it results in flaky, unpolished and generally unenjoyable software like those you see on windowsI've never had a wayland session that lasted longer than a week before, but my Xorg sessions last months and sometimes even an entire year
(DIR) Post #AH6HXiJmETMvi6weGm by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2022-03-05T10:53:14Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@rand idk what compositor you're using, but I've easily had wayland sessions longer than a week with sway.Also, I flaky and unpolished isn't exclusive to windows, I've seen plenty of if with Linux as well, including X11-related stuff.I thought maybe you had some insight how windows is doing things under the hood in a similar way, or has APIs similar to wayland, and how these are fundamentally flawed, but it looks like you didn't even look past the surface.
(DIR) Post #AH6HpWo5ljazDpcRnM by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2022-03-05T10:56:28.647568Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@rand > wayland feels like yet another example of porting the windows misery to free platformsWell done, you can now use something which isn't a Unix or a Windows, as you clearly don't get either's designs.
(DIR) Post #AH6HvaVIw7yoQRikiG by rand@succubi.services
2022-03-05T10:51:09.586Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wolf480pl@mstdn.io the problem that leads up to that is:- the need to reinvent the entire display server for every individual project- a single point of failure brings down the entire session
(DIR) Post #AH6Hvb2cwEdQ5nJMeW by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2022-03-05T10:57:35Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@rand with X11, there's also a single point of failure that brings down the entire session: the Xorg server.You could argue that Xorg is less likely to crash because random kids write WMs and not the display server, and with wayland the random kids end up writing a display server.But this overlooks two things:- Xorg is a rotting mess that nobody wants to maintain- most waylands compositors are built on top of wlroots, so they're not rewriting the core display server functionality
(DIR) Post #AH6ISf62slRYE2g2am by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2022-03-05T11:02:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@rand though I wonder if you could have a protocol where the display server does nothing except allocating buffers and passing events between the clients and the compositor... it's not like it'd have to copy entire frames, since it could just pass the FDs to the compositor... and in case of a compositor crash the clients wouldn't lose a connection and the compositor could just reconnect and pick up where it left off...I don't know enough about wayland to know how feasable that'd be to do...
(DIR) Post #AH6IliVOQsRsIecSZ6 by rand@succubi.services
2022-03-05T10:59:08.309Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wolf480pl@mstdn.io most is not all, and as a matter of fact the two popular desktop environments reinvent their own display serverand just that takes away a significant amount of programmers that could have maintained a single display server
(DIR) Post #AH6IlivcrLQrc0tPSC by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2022-03-05T11:06:56Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@rand yeah they're kinda unlucky that they implemented wayland before wlroots existed.But there is a fork of KDE's kwin that replaces much of their in-house code with wlroots. As for GNOME, they're a lost cause IMO, a bad combination of being stubborn and understaffed.Also, I think it's important that there are multiple implementations of the protocol, to make sure the spec matches the reality and implementation bugs don't become de-facto standard.
(DIR) Post #AH6JgxUNOdOBHERGCm by rand@succubi.services
2022-03-05T11:11:19.451Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wolf480pl@mstdn.io you can still have multiple implementations if the server is better defined like in X11, I think the problem lies within wayland's conceptI'm not saying X11 is the right answer, but wayland certainly isn't, either
(DIR) Post #AH6JgxuxnmekbgsUe8 by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2022-03-05T11:17:18Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@rand idk if I'd call X11 server "better defined", and the spec way is too large for anyone to bother implementing from scratch, with all the legacy cruft.I think wayland's "server == compositor" idea might be wrong, but IIRC it's not embedded in the protocol.And the idea behind the protocol itself - that there are no drawing APIs, clients are handed a shared buffer they render directly into, and they only see their own resources and not those of other clients - that seems good to me.
(DIR) Post #AH6Kq4Pt6oY7K5FQpc by rand@succubi.services
2022-03-05T11:00:55.300Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me being aggressive without specifying a reason is not a very effective way of communicating
(DIR) Post #AH6Kq4vnCC4Ov2AuYq by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2022-03-05T11:30:10.808013Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@rand Because it's a glorious mess to explain and would basically take a full article if not a book.See https://hacktivis.me/articles/Why%20I%20embraced%20Wayland but I think it would need to have few more things on it.
(DIR) Post #AH6Mrdg1hIAYsXfkJc by rand@succubi.services
2022-03-05T11:36:08.733Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me the way wayland promotes reinventing the display server for different compositors really makes it more difficult to have a robust implementation like Xorg, and the fact that failure in such a flaky self-invented display server brings down the entire session is inexcusable I'm not saying X11 is the answer, but wayland certainly isn't also. some concepts of wayland might be appealing, but overall it is still fundamentally flawed
(DIR) Post #AH6MreAVrwYWP5w5po by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2022-03-05T11:52:14.748780Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@rand You're trashing a protocol (wayland) because the implementation you tried sucks.Is IPv6 doomed to suck because the transition is messy (and some implementations were horrible)? Or should we acknowledge that things usually can't change smoothly?(Both also have major FUD because barely anyone cares to check things)And I've yet to see protocol transitions which weren't a huge mess (OStatus→ActivityPub was messy, even if it went fine for most).Also I'm ignoring the "just works" with Xorg, you've likely learned to accept bugs or limitations that any non-Xorg user would find absolutely ridiculous.
(DIR) Post #AH6d7eL0bcyspRUvoW by chozu@fedi.absturztau.be
2022-03-05T14:17:01.102623Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@rand @wolf480pl no you don't, and no it doesn'tLibraries exist to implement compositors.As for single point of failure, at worst, it's the same as xorg, since if xorg crashes your session will crash.At best, because with wayland you can actually improve things, your compositor crashing doesn't mean anything and you can just relaunch it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdnRwPBFBk