Post AGGhPcy2extzEDiJgO by kev@fosstodon.org
(DIR) More posts by kev@fosstodon.org
(DIR) Post #AGGfkWFMds9KYdeNc0 by kev@fosstodon.org
2022-02-08T13:19:22Z
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I really don't understand all the love for #Gemini. What am I missing?https://kevq.uk/gemini-isnt-the-solution-to-the-broken-web/#moa
(DIR) Post #AGGgIMKtzpArfMNQWG by TrechNex@mstdn.social
2022-02-08T13:25:28Z
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@kev I could be mistaken, but I don't think that mass adoption is actually the objective. It's basically just the modern equivalent of creating a quirky enthusiast network of radio hams.
(DIR) Post #AGGgWGHVIwdowRPstk by yyp@fosstodon.org
2022-02-08T13:27:58Z
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@kev Gemini is much much much simpler in implementation than the current Web.I'm sure I can make a gemini client in an evening, but a web browser would take ages to build considering how big the related specs are.I guess the main focus of Gemini is not (and unlikely going to be ever) the average public, so...For instance, my blog is both available on http and gemini (with the latter being first-class but whatever) so people can use what they prefer.
(DIR) Post #AGGgcTsheY9orImWpc by nathand@fosstodon.org
2022-02-08T13:29:06Z
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@kev Nothing. It's a watered down HTTPs protocol that uses markdown for presentation (which is often, ironically, converted to HTML for rendering on the client).It's got no support for images and is staunchly "minimal".
(DIR) Post #AGGhPcy2extzEDiJgO by kev@fosstodon.org
2022-02-08T13:38:04Z
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@TrechNex i like the analogy to ham radio, thanks. And yeah, the projects goals definitely aren’t to take over the world.That’s my problem - the tech community think it should.
(DIR) Post #AGGhZKrooMcbzFQqYq by kev@fosstodon.org
2022-02-08T13:39:49Z
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@yyp hmmm not sure I agree. HTML can be as simple or as complicated as we like.You can even install a markdown editor then edit > copy as HTML so folk dont even need to know the syntax.I think the point about client simplicity is moot, as we already have excellent browsers.
(DIR) Post #AGGhayIDiEkkYNYrEe by huy_ngo@fosstodon.org
2022-02-08T13:39:59Z
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@kev Not a big fan of gemini myself but:> it’s a text-only web protocolIt's not the same protocol as web; it's something with more limitation, such that it's hard to implement something like cookies or browser fingerprinting.People who think it can replace web probably think of web only as a publication platform (as it originally is).
(DIR) Post #AGGhemeiv8yrcVuA4m by kev@fosstodon.org
2022-02-08T13:40:02Z
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@nathand glad it’s not just me!
(DIR) Post #AGGhwMYigdpxtXTl32 by underlap@fosstodon.org
2022-02-08T13:43:53Z
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@kev I came across Gemini only the other day when someone posted a link and I had to ask them for a proxy which worked so I could view the content!The only thing I can think of which may be an advantages is that the user knows that each page can't contain tracking cookies etc. If you do this using HTML, the onus is on the web site to respect privacy and the clients won't know ahead of time that this has been done.But this could be achieved using some kind of text over HTTP protocol.
(DIR) Post #AGGi4H6KrXsNHgyWTQ by nathand@fosstodon.org
2022-02-08T13:45:09Z
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@kev I, like you, don't think it's *bad* or actively harming the ecosystem, but it's certainly more navel gazing than participating in a conversation on the problem it tries to solve.
(DIR) Post #AGGiFNWLKrTeNaR0Wu by ariel@feditoxos.eu
2022-02-08T13:46:52Z
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@kev @yyp "we already have excellent browsers" we have three engines: Blink (Chromium), Gecko (Firefox) and WebKit (Safari and other minor browsers like GNOME Web or Falkon). Blink is from Google, a company that basically controls the web (see how they tried to impose FLoC, Manifest v3 and others). Gecko is from Mozilla, which lives off Google and has terrible management. Webkit is just incomplete (e.g. lacks WebRTC and others). Al the other browsers are just based on these. 1/2
(DIR) Post #AGGifc9ZYOzvI7IIQC by yyp@fosstodon.org
2022-02-08T13:47:16Z
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@kev > I think the point about client simplicity is moot, as we already have excellent browsers.I argue that it still should be possible, even if we have "excellent browsers" (I see firefox as acceptable, but in no way good (I tried compiling it once and it's a horror))
(DIR) Post #AGGj5NglxHSpxY6rOC by joel@fosstodon.org
2022-02-08T13:53:06Z
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@kev I mean, the thing stopping Gemini is support by normal browsers, you can now say "They will never do it" but that's not really Gemini's problem just like Firefox removing ftp support, RSS and other things is not because those protocols are actually worthless, but they just dont wanna focus on them for... reasons.I just want Firefox's Reader mode to be enabled by default on all sites, and allow a bit more customization. Maybe there's a plugin for that somewhere...
(DIR) Post #AGGjCwN9OvRLYVXJQ0 by sotolf@fosstodon.org
2022-02-08T13:54:00Z
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@kev Yeah, something that would mark a page as simple would be a lot nicer, so that we could prefer them, it would be so nice, for now I use noscript and enjoy a simpler web.
(DIR) Post #AGGjz2nqnMeLOqxk2a by MatejLach@social.matej-lach.me
2022-02-08T14:06:58Z
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@kev I kind of agree but I guess the premise is that on Gemini *nothing* is tracking you vs http/html you'd always have your browser loaded choke full of plugins trying to stop tracking because going from a page that doesn't track you to one that does is just a click away.
(DIR) Post #AGGk9MQwfEbXB9AUC0 by bortzmeyer@mastodon.gougere.fr
2022-02-08T14:08:48Z
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@kev " you also need special software to view any Gemini site" Same for the Web. You need software for everything.
(DIR) Post #AGGkCZGBQrEppOfCXw by wholesomedonut@fosstodon.org
2022-02-08T14:05:50Z
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@kev Gemini as a protocol is way simpler. A single person can implement both a browser and a server in a very short timespan (a week)compared to getting a feature-parity Web2 browser built.The privacy is built-in on Gemini, it removes the choice to track. CGI support is limited.The bad parts though? Lots of bike shedding and meta-discussion. The network feels pretty fragmented; I really do feel like I am flying through space finding disparate, disconnected colonies when I see new “capsules”.
(DIR) Post #AGGkDHz39PGsXHzeaW by bortzmeyer@mastodon.gougere.fr
2022-02-08T14:09:29Z
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@kev Regarding the very common remark "you can do proper and privacy-preserving Web sites", question 2.5 of the FAQ was written just for that https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/faq.gmi
(DIR) Post #AGGlOz6pFfJLQVlsXo by AaronTheIssueGuy@mast.aaron.place
2022-02-08T14:22:37Z
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@kev Agreed, geminini is great many ways... but it certainly isn't an awnser to the problems the web is facing. I like to use gemini when I have a bad internet connection or overused my dataplan but it is mostly for nerds. Heck I even wrote a Gemini/Gopher client that uses HTML to display content to the user.Still fun to tinker around with
(DIR) Post #AGGmpKCBZiw6JBOznU by pixelherodev@fosstodon.org
2022-02-08T14:38:39Z
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@kev @yyp I think this is the crux of the issue.I don't think there's a single excellent browser. I don't think there's a single browser I'd give so much as a 2 on the 1-10 scale.If it uses any of the three common engines, it's basically asking to get infected. If it doesn't use any of those, it can't use university or government websites, among others.Others have their own reasons, but I suspect that the people who like gemini do not agree with your statement about excellent browsers :)
(DIR) Post #AGGmzsOtFzh5HyNNOi by pixelherodev@fosstodon.org
2022-02-08T14:40:21Z
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@kev Oh, and there's a VERY false claim in your site:> Remember, folks. HTML doesn’t track you and neither does Gemini. So they’re both equal in terms of privacy.It's not the language that violates privacy, it's the tool. Firefox has invaded user privacy multiple times. Chrome does it as a matter of course. I don't trust ANY HTML5-capable browser not to violate my privacy; that would not change if they added gemini support.The issue is the client, not the language.
(DIR) Post #AGGnDTtt90NxMEMXFg by kev@fosstodon.org
2022-02-08T14:43:00Z
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@pixelherodev firefox and chrome arent HTML though, so it’s not false. You’re confusing 2 different things.
(DIR) Post #AGGneEpfH7kuRY95Um by AaronTheIssueGuy@mast.aaron.place
2022-02-08T14:18:27Z
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@nathand @kev cough... cough... cough... slowly hides his code for a gemini client that converts to HTML cough... cough..
(DIR) Post #AGGneFQB5MxkGnEFPM by nathand@fosstodon.org
2022-02-08T14:38:41Z
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@AaronTheIssueGuy @kev that’s not a bad thing! I mean, it makes sense to handle it that way. I just find it ironic and humorous. Technology of our time.
(DIR) Post #AGGneFqPVpwja9VCIS by kev@fosstodon.org
2022-02-08T14:47:47Z
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@nathand @AaronTheIssueGuy I agree. I’d like to take that for a spin when it’s ready!Like i said in the post, i don’t hate Gemini - i think it’s a cool project; i just don’t think it’s the answer to all our problems, as some claim.
(DIR) Post #AGGnwXMV7ZpB7mEK7E by kev@fosstodon.org
2022-02-08T14:51:05Z
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@joel I’d be very surprised if there isn’t an extension or about:config setting that can do that.
(DIR) Post #AGGnyCfB38xrVWlC1g by pixelherodev@fosstodon.org
2022-02-08T14:51:14Z
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@kev Firefox and chrome are how people *view* HTML. Drawing a distinction is like saying "DOCX isn't insecure, but Microsoft Word inserts a backdoor into every encrypted DOCX it creates."Sure, the format isn't the problem, and *can* be used safely; that doesn't change the fact that *most users* are not doing so.I suspect that most people viewing your article are doing so via FF or Chrome. You may not have meant to say that that's safe, but that's what readers will likely pick up.
(DIR) Post #AGGo3PljkZ8HbPJUau by kev@fosstodon.org
2022-02-08T14:52:34Z
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@MatejLach yeah, that’s a great point. I never thought of it that way.
(DIR) Post #AGGoEN2uDNJeLHZI7k by kev@fosstodon.org
2022-02-08T14:54:29Z
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@bortzmeyer difference being is that every single OS that i can think of comes with a web browser. That’s not special software.
(DIR) Post #AGGoK5eNntdQ81pDge by bortzmeyer@mastodon.gougere.fr
2022-02-08T14:55:30Z
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@kev And how do you think the Web started? Because people installed "special [sic] software".
(DIR) Post #AGGpMsR9UGslyFWsGO by feld@bikeshed.party
2022-02-08T15:07:16.330129Z
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It's nostalgia. People want their BBS, MUDs, and shitty websites back because it soothes their anxiety of "erhmagherd too much JavaScript!!!!!"
(DIR) Post #AGGw0360OISg30hS7M by ChrisWere@linuxrocks.online
2022-02-08T16:21:21Z
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@kev @TrechNex I've got to be honest. I haven't seen that sentiment, like at all.The closest is a few techies have said that it's replaced the web **for them**. And that was an exaggeration. It comes across as a bit of a straw man if you're not going to provide examples.Also, should other people's misunderstanding of gemini really be used as a criticism against the project itself?
(DIR) Post #AGGwOxN4oPXDX4Yt5U by garritfra@fosstodon.org
2022-02-08T16:25:42Z
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@kev I don't remember where I read this, but someone questioned why Gemini is built on TCP, instead of leveraging existing HTTP technologies and slapping "text/gemini" as a content type on top of it. HTTP and Gemini have a very similar structure, so why do we need an entirely new tech stack to get the simplicity of Gemini?
(DIR) Post #AGGwhZviBsvUKfdqHw by adamsdesk@mastodon.technology
2022-02-08T16:28:51Z
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@kev I entirely agree with you. Also what I think is being missed is visually appealing content is what people naturally enjoy. In general people like photos, videos, styled pages to make it easier to consume. To me Gemini at its current state will not be globally adapted. Most people don't want to read unstyled and non visually appealing content. It may evovle to something better time will tell.
(DIR) Post #AGGx1e7QKHSR7EglFo by adamsdesk@mastodon.technology
2022-02-08T16:32:21Z
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@kev by the way I noticed a mistake at "Because he fact is", change "he" to "the". Good read as always.
(DIR) Post #AGGxHe3UKVjrYITcqO by jlamothe@fosstodon.org
2022-02-08T16:35:34Z
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@kev Here's the way I see it.Like both you and the Gemini developer point out, Gemini doesn't replace the web, but here's what it *does* do:When I visit a Gemini capsule/site, I know that it *can't* use JavaScript to track me. A lot of the content that I'm interested in doesn't require all the added bloat of the modern web.Yes, I can disable JavaScript and so forth, but that breaks most sites. Gemini gives me a simple experience where I don't have to deal with any of that.
(DIR) Post #AGGxbb2XFaypzYXpb6 by adamsdesk@mastodon.technology
2022-02-08T16:39:02Z
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@kev On the other side, I can see how some, not the general public, like it. It's fast with no extra garbage. Unfortunately this is not what most people want. We need styling, CSS.
(DIR) Post #AGH1c6JFOHuymzrEAq by feld@bikeshed.party
2022-02-08T17:24:26.697554Z
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this? http://viznut.fi/texts-en/permacomputing.htmlThis reads like "I only know about computers so I am hyper sensitive to my perceived concept of wastefulness in this industry"
(DIR) Post #AGH2tXOW2hTtfXCTeC by tinyrabbit@floss.social
2022-02-08T17:37:49Z
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@ChrisWere @kev @TrechNex I agree with this. I see a lot of people complaining about people who want to replace the web with gemini, but I don't see anyone saying they want to replace the web with gemini...The target audience for gemini is the lingering gopher crowd. Patching encryption onto gopher is quirky, gopher maps look horrible on the eye, and plain text documents without hyperlinks means a lot of copy pasting.People don't talk about gopher, but people talk about gemini.1/2
(DIR) Post #AGH6v4l7sXAHFnlUIq by scientiac@fosstodon.org
2022-02-08T18:23:33Z
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@kev This explains most of the things :https://andregarzia.com/2022/01/gemini-is-a-little-gem.html
(DIR) Post #AGHB8xaDkrBOrwXY48 by pavot@fosstodon.org
2022-02-08T19:10:56Z
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@kev if a blogpost exists both on HTTP and Gemini, I'm inclined to read it on Gemini because I know there won't be any tracking present. Even smaller personal websites sometimes integrate some form of tracking. Gemini is also nice because I know I'm going to see a lot of small personal websites, whereas on the normal web following links I'm bound to come across some JavaScript-plagued site. When it comes to small personal websites, Gemini is just better, that's where it shines.
(DIR) Post #AGHELgyL7oOkyhaHk8 by futureisfoss@fosstodon.org
2022-02-08T19:47:04Z
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@kevWhen I use Gemini, it feels more like a blogging platform than a replacement for the web. The project itself says its not trying to replace anything, and I agree.As someone who don't know how to make websites and such, its kinda cool knowing that I can write a gemini capsule just using markdown syntax. Also, what if you write a Gemini capsule and simply convert it to HTML so you get an easy lightweight website also ? Is it possible ?https://512kb.club is nice BTW 🙂
(DIR) Post #AGHJ9Hj3fGR4yPL744 by ben@cawfee.club
2022-02-08T16:58:46.319988Z
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@kev Listen it, I really hate you.
(DIR) Post #AGHSEPeeVmCQbFnaTY by splatt9990@fosstodon.org
2022-02-08T22:22:34Z
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@kev FWIW, the capsule thing is because gemini and many of the terms used in it are inspired by the Gemini NASA missions in the mid 1960's. This is because (in the mind of the original creator at least) these missions were a perfect analogy of what the project wanted to achieve. Just as Gemini (the NASA mission) was a mid point in complexity between the Mercury and Apollo missions, Gemini (the protocol) is a mid point in complexity between gopher and the web.
(DIR) Post #AGHXuv8mKz9kBWykAS by hxd@mastodon.sdf.org
2022-02-08T23:25:49Z
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@pixelherodevI would not use FF or Chrome if it was possible. This is why the fix for the web must start with ease of client implementation. So we have a choice, that we don't have today.@kev
(DIR) Post #AGHfDn05Wff27UrGpE by feld@bikeshed.party
2022-02-09T00:48:10.622757Z
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> It is about where computing is going, as the hard line of climate change approaches.Well there's your problem. You been fed lies about how much computers have to do with climate.
(DIR) Post #AGHfhIf6t6EaiN7MC8 by feld@bikeshed.party
2022-02-09T00:53:40.562651Z
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I hope we use a million more times in computing power than we currently have worldwide before I'm dead. And I'm certain we will. And datacenters will be powered by renewables with no carbon footprint and we will capture the heat to use as a heat pump further driving our efficiency.
(DIR) Post #AGII8bdUFRJTdbo25Y by ilpianista@functional.cafe
2022-02-09T08:03:29Z
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@kev you know what? You convinced me. I was running a #gemini capsule, but I just stopped the server because https://512kb.club is what I really need.
(DIR) Post #AGINLCKEAB9SfpcZP6 by dusnm@fosstodon.org
2022-02-09T09:01:52Z
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@kev It's impossible to do this for one.
(DIR) Post #AGIoyFdgTRFD0WZIjg by jakimfett@hackers.town
2022-02-09T13:16:19Z
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@feld you have assumed much from a few words.My comment about the hard line of climate change has little to do with energy...if anything the false promises of the current energy glut is part of the problem! This comment applies across indistries (including post-orbital), and the cost I am referencing is the entire supply chain logistics which currently are neither carbon neutral nor efficient, and have not made serious movement that direction in the last five decades or so. It could happen, but it is unlikely.As to the "heat pumps" comment, it ignores basic thermodynamic principles, and if cooling were part of the solution, it will look more like putting solid state data centres in cold places, not adding extra mechanical shyte to maintain.Seriously, you are missing my entire point here because you are straw-manning things that have nothing to do with my actual position on the matter. Certainly you have made no effort to ingest those research resources I offered. But that sounds like a you problem, and my patience for correcting assumptions about minescule bits taken out of context is growing thin.Do you intend to have a conversation about the actual engineering & logistics? Start by asking questions.
(DIR) Post #AGIoyGB0TXtofs9ufw by feld@bikeshed.party
2022-02-09T14:12:16.872771Z
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You don't have any expertise in the engineering and logistics and your posts have the most exhausting prose on the entire internet. You may very well be a GPT-3 bot.
(DIR) Post #AGIqwXkaMhrAVY6s8e by gustavo6046@fosstodon.org
2022-02-09T14:33:51Z
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@kevI think more people should look at IPFS. It's like a decentralized file storage thing, but with content addressing and a global underlying network and whatnot. It's kinda BitTorrent-y in a way.It's definitely a bit suspicious that it talks about Web3 stuff, and even includes documentation on how to mint NFTs using it. But it's still a neat project on its own right, useful for backups and for transmitting files around.Honestly, it probably has a lot more merit to call itself "Web3".
(DIR) Post #AGMBBy3Sr1YUyvb960 by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-02-11T05:03:57Z
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@nathand Your take is extremely inaccurate. There is no Markdown, but rather a Markdown-inspired “gemtext” that is very minimal. The reason why Markdown wasn't chosen was because of its ambiguity, lack of standardization, complexity and, ironically, because most Markdown libraries compile to HTML anyway, which is an unnecessary intermediate format, according to the specs.Gemini has support for MIME types, so a Gemini browser can implement support for literally any kind of file, including images. Also, it differs a lot from HTML in its structure, so you can't call it “watered down HTTP”.Gosh, do your research.
(DIR) Post #AGMBUmBbCqsZfoN6em by avalos@mstdn.social
2022-02-11T05:06:38Z
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@nathand Your take is extremely inaccurate. There is no Markdown, but rather a Markdown-inspired “gemtext” that is very minimal. The reason why Markdown wasn't chosen is because of its ambiguity, lack of standardization, complexity and, ironically, because most Markdown libraries compile to HTML anyway, which is an unnecessary and bloated intermediate format, according to the specs.Gemini has support for MIME types, so a Gemini browser can implement support for literally any kind of file, including images. Also, it differs a lot from HTTP in its structure, so you can't call it “watered down HTTP”.Gosh, do your research. 🙄
(DIR) Post #AGMtGsacoTosQNs53o by tek_dmn@mastodon.tekdmn.me
2022-02-11T06:06:35Z
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@avalos So for the record: There's a lack of standardization in Markdown, meaning that there's several incompabitle versions with subtle differences.So to solve that... we took markdown and made it slightly different, and incompatible, with some gopher-inspired changes? Sounds like https://xkcd.com/927/ to me.It would have been just as simple to pick CommonMark or GFM (the two biggest markdown standards I've seen), and have the server spit that out for client-side rendering.1/2
(DIR) Post #AGMtGuaLOUmcc5ksts by tek_dmn@mastodon.tekdmn.me
2022-02-11T06:10:38Z
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@avalos Also, having looked at the protocol spec... no, it doesn't differ a lot from HTTP, it uses the same idea in a different form.1-line host and path request, 1-line response with a numerical response code, reason (called "META"), and then response data. That's HTTP/0.9, assuming no methods (default "GET"). Sure, response codes aren't 3 digits, they're 2, but beyond that it's the exact same general idea, and amount of information conveyed, just a slightly different format on the wire.2/2
(DIR) Post #AGNL3kIv6Z2lgB7EWG by lxo@gnusocial.net
2022-02-11T18:28:57Z
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the web has become toxic with all the automatic execution taken for granted by abusers who won't hesitate to engage in user surveillance, data collection, wasting of resources and remotely-controlled apps. gemini focuses on delivering information, actively avoiding the landmines that the web set for itself
(DIR) Post #AGNLbXSFNyJhfmalPs by thatguyoverthere@charlestown.social
2022-02-11T18:36:49.467400Z
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@lxo @kev Actually, HTML is just a tool. It doesn’t respect or disrespect a user’s privacy. It’s website owners that do/don’t respect a user’s privacy. So to say that Gemini respects user privacy seems strange to me.It’s not just the website owners responsible for this. The browser is also responsible. As Alex pointed out the browser executes code beyond just rendering html. Even CSS is now a program with the ability to process variables and the like. You can disable a lot of that stuff, but you will still download the code even if you don’t execute it.
(DIR) Post #AGOZFBt8Tt8mvpMnei by ryan@mast.verya.pe
2022-02-11T07:03:46Z
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@ChrisWere "It's not Gregg's, is it?"
(DIR) Post #AGVSEzuGipwbg5PKTY by Mr_Teatime@social.tchncs.de
2022-02-15T16:28:20Z
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@kevThe appeal I see in replacing https with something more constricted:If you're on a GEMINI page, you know the operator is doing nothing fishy in the background. On privacy-friendly lightweight website, you can't be sure unless you know how to check.The implementation of Gemini, though, is so spartan as to be deliberately unappealing.If it supports pictures, why not inline pictures? That could make it work for lots of things -- but it doesn't wwant to, so it won't.