Post AEmYfGo49hmHzE0TfU by SulphuricMirror@spinster.xyz
(DIR) More posts by SulphuricMirror@spinster.xyz
(DIR) Post #AEjd4M1vgizRlkpOjI by Ladyfat@spinster.xyz
2021-12-24T16:51:58.290074Z
4 likes, 2 repeats
“Boring middle class breeder”“Domesticated zombies”“Go back to mumsnet”Feminism has a mother problem.
(DIR) Post #AEjj4L7LgFxKfDjsci by Jar@spinster.xyz
2021-12-24T17:59:12.205754Z
4 likes, 1 repeats
@Ladyfat I have seen some crazy misogyny from feminists towards mothers. Pregnant women and mothers are in a vulnerable position to abuse, either from the medical field or spouses. If they are unlucky in this way, I think feminists should be non hostile and try to make sure there are resources to help women avoid this happening to them or helping them if it does. From rantingcrocodile on tumblr and quote from Andrea Dworkin.
(DIR) Post #AEjlDAJ7RRSpeRa3m4 by starsstorm@spinster.xyz
2021-12-24T18:22:20.137918Z
5 likes, 0 repeats
@Ladyfat Feminism absolutely has a mother problem.
(DIR) Post #AEjo7wuY7Z0CWBIDB2 by HebrideanHecate@spinster.xyz
2021-12-24T18:53:06.329282Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@starsstorm @Ladyfat Yeah, I really am sick of this shit, and the hypocrisy of the gatekeeping,man fluffing head girls, they make me want to puke.
(DIR) Post #AEjoLewji5o4r6qxay by Frau_BerchDUH@spinster.xyz
2021-12-24T18:32:44.025625Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@starsstorm @Ladyfat I never wanted to stay home and have kids, and back in the day there was HUGE pressure to be a SAHM, like that was the ONLY image of women society wanted to see, so I pushed back against that hard, and a lot of other girls did, too. Unfortunately, moms got trashed and they're the ones who need the most support, especially now.
(DIR) Post #AEjrs6a0nxElgkO3YO by FrustratedTherapist@spinster.xyz
2021-12-24T19:16:47.268872Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@Ladyfat I absolutely think the world has a mother problem and feminists are not immune. I actually believe misogyny is rooted in mother-hatred: we all come into this world through our moms, we are all completely reliant on our mothers when we're little, and (when men aren't legislating our bodies) moms decide which humans get born. That's a tremendous amount of power for women to have and men resent the hell out of it and feel the need to control us. The misogynistic expectations of all women is that we "mother" them somehow, whether that be actually giving birth or just constant caretaking in one form or another. We are expected to be "mothers" to the exclusion of our humanity. The life-giving parts of our bodies happen to be the parts of our bodies that are most objectified and degraded.And mothers are seen as the ultimate resources as they produce more humans who will eventually turn into producers, consumers, and soldiers. As all women are potential mothers, we all must be subjugated in order to be exploited. But we can't have women uniting so misogyny casts a wide net to keep us hating each other and divided.
(DIR) Post #AEjrvGIP8Zc2gtelJw by Kay@spinster.xyz
2021-12-24T18:57:18.863560Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Ladyfat That's hilarious. Just last month a spinster who makes YouTube videos made one all about a comment of mine here, that she totally misunderstood. Apparently I'm not a proper feminist, because I failed to live by her personal feminist values (which includes political lesbianism I take it, but I can't exactly ask for clarification or I risk outing myself on YouTube). I also use too many words. Young women who call themselves feminist seem to really hate mothers with a passion.
(DIR) Post #AEjrxYcA03n05HzXpQ by Tiggy@spinster.xyz
2021-12-24T18:55:39.899438Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@Ladyfat I don't block often but the majority of my blocks on here are because I've seen a feminist giving unjust abuse to mothers or other women. Definitely an issue in the feminist world.
(DIR) Post #AEjtnNGtWAvNuvJhwG by Rogue_Koala@spinster.xyz
2021-12-24T19:50:01.637225Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
I don't think it's misogynistic to expect a mother to be a mother. I think it's misogynistic to deny mother's the gratitude they deserve for being mother's. It shouldn't be taken for granted or go unappreciated. But it isn't hatred of women to expect a person to take care of the child they have created. Inspired by my belief that if mothering becomes misogyny children won't get their McFlurrys. @FrustratedTherapist @Ladyfat
(DIR) Post #AEjtnNdw8VM94O66r2 by FrustratedTherapist@spinster.xyz
2021-12-24T19:55:05.454240Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Rogue_Koala Well we can't have anyone being denied their McFlurry!@Ladyfat
(DIR) Post #AEjtpUUZduhktHiywq by Ladyfat@spinster.xyz
2021-12-24T19:59:46.410860Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@FrustratedTherapist @Rogue_Koala I think there is room in feminism for mcflurries
(DIR) Post #AEjujx1YkSjFb84kHg by Rogue_Koala@spinster.xyz
2021-12-24T20:00:06.242053Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
Good.@Ladyfat @FrustratedTherapist
(DIR) Post #AEjv70b5d7EjL8gnYm by grace_hawthorn@spinster.xyz
2021-12-24T20:05:04.650848Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Rogue_Koala @FrustratedTherapist @Ladyfat i also think this is a perennial attempt to divide women. Libfems have the biggest issue with mothers bec they think that 'equality' means being 'like men' (which means 'someone else' has to do the boring domestic & reproductive labour. Ruth Serwotka calling women 'domesticate zombies' is a perfect example of a woman captured by a men's class movement - unions - and failing to bring a feminist lens to it). Radical feminists have always had the backs of mothers & bring a focus to the meaning of care; who does it, what it means, whether it's recognised, how it's exploited. And also to the reproductive autonomy of women; women who desperately want children (with or without men) and can't have them, women who are pregnant and don't want to be, women who've had all their children and are devastated to find themselves pregnant again, young women who've decided this is the best thing to do now, women who want more for themselves and their children. And to the economic survival of mothers - how do we make it possible for women to raise children without relying on men or the state (this is in no way an easy question and one we have yet to really find a workable answer to)? how do we make men pay for their children when they've fucked off? how do we keep women & their children safe from abusive men? Refuges have spent decades building practice that is ALL about the relationships between mothers and their children, the challenge to surrogacy is not only about the commercialisation of women's bodies but also about the fundamental recognition that we separate new-borns from their mothers only in the most extreme of circumstances and as a decision of last resort (in all circs except surrogacy) bec we know how much harm it does to women & to babies. Radical feminists understand that bearing a child has a massive impact on women in every way; physiologically, emotionally, psychically, in terms of identity, priorities, economically, socially - all of it. Libfems appear determined not to recognise that setting women with children against women without is another mechanism of patriarchy fuckwittery, and needs to be fully resisted. (Personally, my mum should never have had children, she's a raging narcissist and actually terrible as a parent in pretty much every way. As a feminist, it took me much too long to recognise how toxic she is, and what that's meant for me. But i can hold that knowledge at the same time as knowing that in different circs she may not have had children & that would have been a good thing, and it doesn't alter my analysis that mothering is isolated, unappreciated, unsupported (and should be none of those things) and not the inevitable destiny or 'life's meaning' of all women. I'm an outstanding friend to mothers & have many beloved children in my life, and i love everything about both of those things)
(DIR) Post #AEjw4Xc6WGAwp8YE52 by Rogue_Koala@spinster.xyz
2021-12-24T20:10:45.821822Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
It's a really bizarre conclusion for a woman to think the most authentic way to be a woman. What it truly means to be female. Is to be like men.The degree of error involved is mind boggling. Being like men shouldn't even come into it.The true way a person is oppressed is when they are robbed of experiencing their true potential. Not becoming like something else. How do people get this wrong @grace_hawthorn @FrustratedTherapist @Ladyfat
(DIR) Post #AEjw4YDgGYEWhg8EeO by grace_hawthorn@spinster.xyz
2021-12-24T20:16:42.753230Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@Rogue_Koala @FrustratedTherapist @Ladyfat liberal feminism has always been based in shaky foundations. But, the power of men being the Reference Human across every structural system is a powerful one. If you spend forever (and back it up with pretty much every god) attributing the 'valued' qualities to men, it's not that surprising that women will fall over themselves to demonstrate them (and distance themselves from the 'unvalued' ones). Happens across class & race as well, it's baked into oppressive dynamics. It's also comforting to think we can change this individually, and that by changing ourselves a bit, we'll be ok. Wrong, but comforting. Confronting the reality of how deeply organised, entrenched and overwhelming patriarchy is is immeasurably painful. Not surprising we'd resist it if we could find any other possible way out. (also a tautological impossible - not everyone can be equal in a hierarchy)
(DIR) Post #AEjybcKSCzngueC9BI by sleepwalker@spinster.xyz
2021-12-24T18:47:47.870955Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Jar @Ladyfat women who occasionally come to feminists for empathy and support (stranger women are for some reason more capable of it that than their male love of their life... sus) just to return to their nigel with full strength ready to take another portion of abuse and neglect are absolutely "selfish"
(DIR) Post #AEjyl430WM2HUEXULQ by Rogue_Koala@spinster.xyz
2021-12-24T20:49:29.055620Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
The power dynamics of sex makes it all boring.@grace_hawthorn @FrustratedTherapist @Ladyfat
(DIR) Post #AEjyl4UIsrs0qtJHtI by grace_hawthorn@spinster.xyz
2021-12-24T20:50:08.762891Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Rogue_Koala @FrustratedTherapist @Ladyfat even more boring to live it, frankly 😉
(DIR) Post #AEjyl4rhTsaM1SFyMK by Rogue_Koala@spinster.xyz
2021-12-24T20:53:14.935568Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
I have power over you ..... 😂@grace_hawthorn @FrustratedTherapist @Ladyfat
(DIR) Post #AEjyl5DgAAAN7cXWcK by Ladyfat@spinster.xyz
2021-12-24T20:54:59.516057Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Rogue_Koala @grace_hawthorn @FrustratedTherapist keep up that talk and you won’t get a McFlurry!
(DIR) Post #AEjzXgii2YG9KNELnE by Rogue_Koala@spinster.xyz
2021-12-24T20:55:50.520307Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
😂 kicks over Lego @Ladyfat @FrustratedTherapist @grace_hawthorn
(DIR) Post #AEjzXhEG9FUquDzXyC by grace_hawthorn@spinster.xyz
2021-12-24T20:57:40.991180Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Rogue_Koala @Ladyfat @FrustratedTherapist (may you step on it in bare feet 😉 )
(DIR) Post #AEk4DfkoQDkUJJUOgK by Jar@spinster.xyz
2021-12-24T21:56:11.756231Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@sleepwalker @Ladyfat Are women who benefit from feminist resources selfish if they return to their abusive husbands afterwards? I more feel bad for them because in my opinion a lot of media tells women that they will be able to fix an abusive man and change him, from romance novels and tv shows, you see this idea often. A lot of women want to be perfect and loving to change a man to be better to her and be valued, without realizing that being a wonderful person doesn’t make an abusive man change. Abusive men, along with the rest of society, do a number on women’s self esteem and worth so it can be difficult for her to realize that she doesn’t have to deal with that. I understand having anger for women throwing other women down, I have dealt with various sex work is work lipstick feminist women, woman following the transgender rights stuff, women in the medical field, friendships and it’s hard to not get angry with them when they get hostile with me, but I don’t think misogynistic language like calling them bitches or dick holsters or things like that is a good response to it.
(DIR) Post #AEkB5duC6vc5wIznvs by spin@spinster.xyz
2021-12-24T22:12:51.161171Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Jar @Ladyfat I don't know what these women expect. I wish people stopped having children altogether and the human race died off but I know that this is not gonna happen. Whats the point on critizing women who are pregnant and women who date men? Do they think that attitude could one day prevent most women from doing these things?
(DIR) Post #AEkUeB8ix15rzMyQGO by sleepwalker@spinster.xyz
2021-12-25T02:51:35.745820Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Jar @Ladyfat like I don't know it or didn't go through it. I would still be in that state if I was told "it's ok to never commit or change anything about yourself and just leech off other women from time to time". Feminists must reject the sanctity of choice and opinion no matter what these choices and opinions are if they want to have any hope.
(DIR) Post #AEkViBzLpwaLjZ4EPA by Cala137@spinster.xyz
2021-12-25T02:34:00.517443Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@Ladyfat it's sad because feminists defended a mother's right to have her kids after divorce, for example and feminists have pointed out that so called "women's" labour that mother's do is valuable and should be compensated. Motherhood as an institution is bad probably, but we still must fight to protect mother's and their rights.
(DIR) Post #AEkWNrJX5uVBm9NJyK by EatKnitSleep@spinster.xyz
2021-12-25T02:54:19.242078Z
4 likes, 0 repeats
@sleepwalker Genuinely surprised to see such a shitty attitude towards abused women here. Women who go back to an abusive nigel may be putting him first. They may be putting the children first (in a misguided way). They may be putting their parents, culture, religion etc first... but selfish? No. @Jar @Ladyfat
(DIR) Post #AEkZclthoaZfBO65gG by sleepwalker@spinster.xyz
2021-12-25T02:58:31.291838Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@EatKnitSleep @Jar @Ladyfat oh yeah totally shitty to all involved to endorse and support her to continue such "relationship" because it's very very not nice to tell a woman to dump her man, after all being abused is a Human Right, and how's she supposed to live without Sex and Love and stuff? Better for feminists to dump all their effort into a black hole and for a woman to never leave. But at least everyone was nice and nobody was offended, that's what matters.
(DIR) Post #AEkZcmOtwbWmk8h0Iy by Jar@spinster.xyz
2021-12-25T03:48:04.922839Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sleepwalker @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat So do you think feminists should not help make resources available for every woman and keep whatever we do for ourselves? Just so you know, I lean more towards cultural feminism. All women are impacted by sexism in the medical field when drugs are not tested on the female body, when female specific health conditions are not studied, when doctors do procedures that harm us more than help us like the “husband stitch” and therapy historically has some blaming undertones, radfem analysis on these things and resources for dealing with them can help all women, even if they are not feminists themselves. Sexual abuse shelters can help women whether they are partnered or not partnered, since sexual abuse can come from a Nigel or a stranger. Giving women that option to leave helps give women more liberty, if they need it, and many will. Women have to start somewhere before they can become more feminist, and it is not an easy path to take but some might. So I’m not sure if doing things to help any woman no matter her political alignment is really pouring things into a black hole. Some women here have children and male partners but this doesn’t mean they don’t also direct their advocacy towards other women. Do you think we should only help other feminists?
(DIR) Post #AEkZejHIWcLFdb48ki by EatKnitSleep@spinster.xyz
2021-12-25T03:33:23.313136Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sleepwalkerYou seem to be replying to a completely different comment to the one I actually made.Maybe you've never been in a relationship with an abusive man, if that's the case then I'm pleased for you. Most women who have been in that situation take several attempts, and a lot of support, to actually leave. If you're not in a position to offer that support, that's fine. But please don't accuse abused women selfish. @Jar @Ladyfat
(DIR) Post #AEkcJYroL0V385k5uy by sleepwalker@spinster.xyz
2021-12-25T03:54:51.007045Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Jar @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat women must be helped but on the condition that they won't throw themselves off the cliff again once they feel better and come crawling back. Allowing this is being a maintenance worker for patriarchy, not a feminist
(DIR) Post #AEkcJZTO5IYd0dK6UK by EatKnitSleep@spinster.xyz
2021-12-25T04:02:37.032847Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@sleepwalkerIf you don't want to help women who are in crisis, nobody is forcing you. But who, exactly, do you think feminism is for? What do you think is the alternative to 'allowing' abused women only one attempt at getting away from an abusive Nigel? Maybe you think they should get two chances. What is your cut off point? Patriarchy isn't going to disappear just because we abandon women who don't get out the first time we show them the exit, which seems to be what you are suggesting.@Jar @Ladyfat
(DIR) Post #AEkchKIg9EDqtydqng by Jar@spinster.xyz
2021-12-25T04:22:31.165482Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sleepwalker @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat I disagree that this is “being a maintenance worker for the patriarchy.”I understand that you see feminists running shelters and giving out printed resources as having a burden of healing other women, so they go back a little happier to abusive men, keeping things going along as normal. But the fact that women have an option to leave a partner who turns out to be violent or a rapist is disruptive to the patriarchy, not maintaining it. The old brand of patriarchal institution, marriage does not have the same binding power over women anymore. Women can now divorce and seek shelter if things go badly, which gives them more autonomy than the traditional view of them as property to their husbands. This should place pressure on men to behave more decently to their wives if there is an option of her going off to a female community if things go badly, even if she might go back and forth due to whatever damages she has taken to her self worth. This doesn’t benefit men because they have to put in more effort, and hopefully the violent ones end up not reproducing (as long as abortion is acceptable for rape.) Which is why pornography has swept in to soothe men, who, for whatever reason, happen to be unsuccessful with women.
(DIR) Post #AEkkcqtuJP7SCCQsgC by sleepwalker@spinster.xyz
2021-12-25T04:56:12.874154Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Jar @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat well it is, an unpaid worker at that. I never said that women should not be helped, I said that feminists must insist on women getting out and not getting back and not let themselves be used as a recharging station or as a way to "force" men to behave better by being better caretakers. Western feminism is so spineless
(DIR) Post #AEkkcrIip8y7RA2hMG by Jar@spinster.xyz
2021-12-25T05:51:21.228170Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sleepwalker @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat Even if you view this as maintenance for the patriarchy, I think that the real world effects are actually weakening, rather than helping it. The thing is, abusive men do not change. They are also numerous and wield large amounts of power in society, given how many rapists and child molesters get turned loose in the streets. The option of women to leave is a massive risk to them and their grasp on control. Men’s rights advocates really would love to get rid of divorce because of how much it destabilized things. They have statistics that apparently partnered men do the best in the workforce, followed by single women, and trailed by single men. The labor that women provide to their partners helps these abusive men excel and maintains their power. They will also not change so women have to get away permanently. However, you have to think of abusive relationships and patriarchy in general, as similar to a cult. You cannot brute force someone out of a cult dynamic where they face brainwashing and coercive control. It takes time and careful persuasion to get someone out of that situation and mindset, and ultimately they have to be ready for it themselves. Rather than being a recharging station, it can be a window, to show women that there is another way to do things once she is able to fully wake up. If we can provide non hostile support that is widely known about and accessible, it might be easier for women to achieve this in the first place.As for forcing men to be better caretakers, I suspect this is more something that may happen naturally over time rather than an explicit goal. Women face a difficult dynamic compared to other groups because human reproduction forces us to interact with men in some way. A majority of women have romantic inclinations towards men. If I remember correctly, you are a political lesbian but I’m not sure if people are actually able to alter their attraction like that if they are not bisexual. Western feminism is weak because it was seen as a legitimate threat and crushed and twisted into lipstick “feminism.” I live in the United States and have to my knowledge, never met another feminist.
(DIR) Post #AEkmheNmTuYwjAozL6 by sleepwalker@spinster.xyz
2021-12-25T06:10:00.373694Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Jar @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat there are no abusive men because men having power over women, the right to kill and rape them is not abuse, it's use, precisely they way it's intended. Women must realize that it's a feature not a bug, the myth of an abusive man is precisely what keeps women in these cycles of being used and taken from. If women need to fuck men due to "reproduction" then lesbians and just women who don't date aren't women? A biologically different category? Sure, women put up with men because they don't want humanity to die out. That happened. Nevermind that it keeps happening during overpopulation too
(DIR) Post #AEkt5dWVvWK4joj7z6 by Jar@spinster.xyz
2021-12-25T07:26:11.732189Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sleepwalker @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat “If women need to fuck men due to "reproduction" then lesbians and just women who don't date aren't women?” :blobfoxdisapprove: I’m not sure how you got that I believe woman having sex defines what women are. I do not have sex and I am female. My point was that permanent separation of the male and female sexes is complicated because of the nature of human and mammalian reproduction. Individual women may choose not to have sex or reproduce but the strategy that continues a species for thousands of years tends to be the one that persists on a whole, unless something drastically changes. And yes I’m saying there are some factors that are likely biological here, whether in sexual attraction or the general urge of members of a species to reproduce. I know some women who are endless romantics or who have a strong love for babies and want to be a mother from a young age. Where they see a picture of a baby and freak out with happiness. These girls would collect so many baby pictures on their phone to show me. I don’t think anyone trained them to think this way, and not every woman experiences this, I’ve only known two. However, the want of the romantic woman to find a loving man or the desire to be a mother do not reflect the current state of men that exist, the current state of motherhood or the state of the medical field dealing with pregnancies, but it will be difficult to prevent them from trying. I’m talking about the desire of women in this case, we know how men view women and sex.
(DIR) Post #AEktjtdZR32yIVE0W0 by Jar@spinster.xyz
2021-12-25T07:33:28.215165Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sleepwalker @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat “If women need to fuck men due to "reproduction" then lesbians and just women who don't date aren't women?” :blobfoxdisapprove: I’m not sure how you got that I believe woman having sex with men defines what women are. I do not have sex and I am female. My point was that permanent separation of the male and female sexes is complicated because of the nature of human and mammalian reproduction. Individual women may choose not to have sex or reproduce but the strategy that continues a species for thousands of years tends to be the one that persists on a whole, unless something drastically changes. And yes I’m saying there are some factors that are likely biological here, whether in sexual attraction or the general urge of members of a species to reproduce. I know some women who are endless romantics or who have a strong love for babies and want to be a mother from a young age. Where they see a picture of a baby and freak out with happiness. These girls would collect so many baby pictures on their phone to show me. I don’t think anyone trained them to think this way, and not every woman experiences this, I’ve only known two. However, the want of the romantic woman to find a loving man or the desire to be a mother do not reflect the current state of men that exist, the current state of motherhood or the current state of the medical field in dealing with pregnancies, but it will be difficult to prevent them from trying. I’m talking about the desire of women in this case, we know how men view women and sex.
(DIR) Post #AEm1ApwGBis5TyihUG by sleepwalker@spinster.xyz
2021-12-25T08:17:08.659784Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Jar @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat you don't think women are trained to like babies and want to be with men, really? Well if you like the thought of being an animal without free will be my guest. I think women can decide stuff about their lives, but only if they believe that they can.
(DIR) Post #AEm1AqNYYEhoqdUV28 by Jar@spinster.xyz
2021-12-25T20:31:29.153979Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sleepwalker @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat I do think they likely had training towards this direction, but I also knew women with a similar upbringing who turned out to be lesbians and had a feeling of disgust towards all of the baby pictures. :blob_cat_giggle: So there is an underlying element in why not all women responded to that environment in the same way. Of course women can make their own choices, but part of feminism is looking at the reasoning behind these choices, and whether it is cultural training or influenced by biology. As well as the overarching dynamic between male and female sexes as a whole. We are, in fact, animals, so who we are is always a mix of cultural training and genetics. So, if you remove and undo the training, it is possible that some women will still have a desire to have a child, and there are feminists here who do have children. They can choose to follow their desires or not, but we know they sometimes will not choose the feminist choice given how society is now, and possibly even how it will be in the future. And many women will not encounter feminism in the first place. We have to be sympathetic to women who deal with the effects of society harming women, because it does, no matter what path they take, and avoiding overt misogynistic language towards them is an easy thing to do. Helping with this doesn’t necessarily have to be free work either. Writing books, whether fictional feminism books, or factual books about society can help, providing female only spaces like gyms can help women notice the effects of separatism. Non-feminist women can still support these without being considered selfish. It is not always easy to help women who are at risk of abuse, but in my opinion, hostility will not help.
(DIR) Post #AEm7FztzAhPpYXV4SG by sleepwalker@spinster.xyz
2021-12-25T21:38:57.434581Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Jar @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat also if everything is already natural why does patriarchy need to force women into what's already natural for them?
(DIR) Post #AEmAs8Ro9DEKvUCIQC by Jar@spinster.xyz
2021-12-25T22:20:09.080053Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sleepwalker @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat It’s possible to believe that patriarchy trains women to behave in certain ways. Behaviors that they would not do without it, while also realizing that genetics has some role in things as well. These aren’t contradictory positions.
(DIR) Post #AEmCyH43DtgZIS8l9M by sleepwalker@spinster.xyz
2021-12-25T21:06:24.351130Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Jar @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat well they respond differently because they're different people. Should we also look for genetic causes of gender non-compliance, religiousness, taste in music, foreign language preference? If everything is predetermined then what's the point of trying to change things? If women are biologically destined to be sexually used by men then what's the point of feminism? Women who want to change stuff, change it, while you debate whether it's genetically possible.
(DIR) Post #AEmCyHTZh06OZc58vw by Jar@spinster.xyz
2021-12-25T22:43:40.252616Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sleepwalker @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat I understand that you are uncomfortable with the idea that genetics may play a role in behaviors and sexual attraction. However this doesn’t mean that I think things are impossible to change.“If everything is predetermined then what's the point of trying to change things? If women are biologically destined to be sexually used by men then what's the point of feminism?”I think you are misunderstanding in some way...? I don’t think women are predestined to be used by men or predestined to be submissive, or anything like that, but attraction to men and the feeling of wanting a child may be influenced by things besides socialization and culture. This doesn’t mean that women want to be used, are meant to be used or are destined to be used. I also think that things *can* change, even if there are genetic influences along with cultural ones. “Women who want to change stuff, change it, while you debate whether it's genetically possible.”I have given examples of how and why I think change can happen. Meanwhile, you have said nothing about what should be done besides that we should abandon women who are unable to leave an abusive relationship the first time. If you believe in evolution, or even things like picking non aggressive wolves out of a pack for centuries until you get dogs, it is clearly possible for behaviors to be influenced by genes, and for this to change over time in the right conditions. Male and female sexes in most species are in a dynamic called antagonistic coevolution, where the interests of one sex are opposed to the interests of the other sex. This doesn’t mean that because males are naturally violent that women are naturally submissive, but rather that male violence serves their own interests and training women to be submissive when we are not naturally like that also serves their interests. But violence against women and use of women harms women and goes against women’s interests, you can see in romantic heterosexual women and women who want babies, very idealistic ideas of relationships, which do not match the reality of how men are. Women usually do not want to be used like they are now, unless they have some kind of traumatic experience or grooming which imo is happening in the modern left/liberal “sex work is empowering” patriarchy that has filled in for the traditional patriarchy.
(DIR) Post #AEmDiK5WJUFfzlmkJU by shadow@poa.st
2021-12-25T22:30:38.702295Z
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@Jar @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat @sleepwalker Are female rabbits trained by a rabbit patriarchy to be attracted to male rabbits, and to propagate? The only difference between us and the rabbits is that we're clever enough to have the succinct ability to state the obvious necessary preconditions for the continued existence of our species. Women would still have children with men, whether they were told to or not. Otherwise, I would not have been alive to tell you this.
(DIR) Post #AEmDiKa0U8ddWK35pg by Jar@spinster.xyz
2021-12-25T22:51:59.570795Z
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@shadow @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat @sleepwalker I’m saying that heterosexual attraction and a desire to have kids can occur naturally without cultural influences. Meaning, women cannot train themselves to be lesbians. However, certain behaviors like being submissive, accepting violent behavior as normal, certain views of the self as useful for *only* reproduction or attraction, plucking eyebrows and shaving are all behaviors trained into women from a young age. So I think it is a mix. You are seeing right now a conflict between beliefs of radical feminism and other forms of feminism.
(DIR) Post #AEmILw3HUvvIqfskWe by sleepwalker@spinster.xyz
2021-12-25T04:05:44.824076Z
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@EatKnitSleep @Jar @Ladyfat again if you already know what I'm suggesting I don't know why I bother. Props for not saying "by your own logic" followed by something absolutely contrary to my message
(DIR) Post #AEmILwSRzM3Y6jeqky by EatKnitSleep@spinster.xyz
2021-12-25T04:08:47.715371Z
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@sleepwalker Ok. I don't know what you're suggesting, I can only guess based in what you've posted here but Since you're obviously arguing with A strawman of your own creation, rather than responding to any of the points I've made, I will not bother engaging further.@Jar @Ladyfat
(DIR) Post #AEmKjRsXX5iy7tCJZA by Christ_is_Lord@poa.st
2021-12-26T00:10:37.625346Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@Jar @shadow @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat @sleepwalker Y’all seem to be falling into the classic dichotomy of culture vs biology, when in reality culture is downstream from biology (with history and geography being secondary influences). Using your example, plucking eyelashes is an attempt to look more healthy and feminine (low set brow is masculine and one of the ways trannies don’t look feminine). The specific practice of drawing on eyebrows or plucking them is a cultural practice derived from a biological predisposition.Every healthy biological organism seeks to optimise the health of its self, offspring, and partner. Creatures who do not want to reproduce are unhealthy. Zoo animals who don’t want to reproduce are rightfully treated as ill. Humans who reject their deepest biological impulse should be regarded the same.Refusal to eat is a symptom of illness. Suicidality is a symptom of illness. Refusal to reproduce is a symptom of illness. The strife within feminism is purely due to the false assumptions within it. Feminine behaviour isn’t something pushed onto women. Every study has shown that women (in general) prefer caring, considerate, and human professions. Women are more agreeable. Women are more prone to anxious emotions. Women are more empathic. Women have different requirements and needs for their romantic partner. Look at the gay and lesbian community and the problems unique to each community. Promiscuity, infidelity, and obsession with youth are not “how men are taught to view women” they are “how men treat others” (even when they are consciously rejecting social mores. Women who are attracted to women have the same problems women who are attracted to men, except exaggerated: no boundaries, extreme immediate emotional over commitment and co dependence, and deep insecurity regarding the other’s commitment.(As an aside the studies seem to show an extremely strong family components to the likelihood that a girl will grow to be a lesbian.)As long as Feminism continues down this path is will continue to split into two camps: those who reject the existence of the biological (all feminity is social -> trannies) and those who reject treating women according to their biology (men and women are different, can not be reconciled -> break away feminist society).The third way, and the path I don’t think the feminist left are capable of taking is recognising that women and men require distinct and different legal structures to support them.
(DIR) Post #AEmVhdCVZ7y29psDzc by SulphuricMirror@spinster.xyz
2021-12-26T02:12:51.487890Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Jar What I wish we could do, when we have single sex schools/camps/clubs again, is develop a curriculum meant to start when girls are very young and follow them as they grow up (ideally) that would basically be a deprogramming of female compliance/self-hatred/sex object brainwashing that all females are subjected to. At best we get a little 45b minute long documentary in school about "media awareness" that teaches "photoshop bad, those women are unrealistic so don't feel bad" and that's it. That is shit! It's not enough. We need a separate education program for females that specifically counteracts all the male supremacist propaganda we're fed from birth and it needs to teach girls that they are worth so much, and males are lucky to breathe the same air as us. But that won't be possible until we establish more separatist spaces. I think it would be awesome if radical-minded school teachers could put some thought to what a curriculum like that could look like.
(DIR) Post #AEmWaNbLGWUHhhayuG by SulphuricMirror@spinster.xyz
2021-12-26T02:07:20.129552Z
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@sleepwalker @EatKnitSleep @Jar @Ladyfat I think you can tell a woman to dump her man and still support her through female solidarity even if she doesn't, or at least doesn't right away. You don't have to give energy to any individual you feel like you don't want to or can't, but no women should be excluded from female liberation. If you personally want to wash your hands of pick mes you personally know, that's fine. But they still fall under the category 'woman' and feminism is still for them, too.
(DIR) Post #AEmYSzHTUQXE9luCiO by sleepwalker@spinster.xyz
2021-12-26T01:59:08.085670Z
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@Jar @shadow @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat if it's impossible then how did I and thousands of other women do it? How can you back up your statements? Have you seen a human society without culture where women still ended up straight?
(DIR) Post #AEmYSzlFhiM1e7pz84 by Jar@spinster.xyz
2021-12-26T02:44:31.758673Z
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@sleepwalker @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat @shadow I’m saying that even now, there are some women who have attraction to other females and some who do not. There is a long conditioning for women to have heterosexual attraction, and yet some women end up having no attraction to males despite this. So why wouldn’t it work the other way, where conditioning women to have attraction to other women doesn’t work in every case either? In mainstream transgender culture, the sexuality people are conditioned to have is bisexual, or pansexual, since you are supposed to be attracted to either sex or else it is discrimination against some gender presentations. Yet, somehow, lesbians have not managed to develop attraction to transgender women. Women who grow up in this environment assuming most people are bisexual and that they are bisexual, may find that, when it comes down to it, they do not have romantic or sexual feelings towards other females, despite it being encouraged or expected. So it seems to me that it is not possible to alter or choose sexual attraction, unless you are already bisexual.
(DIR) Post #AEmYYJeFBypQlx631M by sleepwalker@spinster.xyz
2021-12-26T02:18:58.642553Z
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@SulphuricMirror @EatKnitSleep @Jar @Ladyfat suuuuuuure "don't help women" that's I said, yes totally, that's right, you got it absolutely right 👌 I just get the feeling everyone who replied to me has a Nigel, wants to have one or thinks it's a woman's right to have one and that's why you can't even read straight and equate changing feminist attitude from just helping to helping but also preventing to refusal to help at all.
(DIR) Post #AEmYYK5BZoNa7VhZ0y by SulphuricMirror@spinster.xyz
2021-12-26T02:26:12.563669Z
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@sleepwalker @EatKnitSleep @Jar @Ladyfat I'm not quite sure what you mean by "changing feminist attitude from just helping to helping" but for what it's worth I don't have a Nigel and don't want one either. I find males physically and morally repugnant. I was trying to say that I don't think you should feel forced to expel your energy on women you feel are "lost causes" because that... sucks. I get that. I just still think they should ideally benefit from feminism, as much as possible. The fact that they have a parasitic male in their life will make benefitting from feminism hard than if they didn't but they still can a bit. I would love it if women could go full separatist but I know it's not realistic for all women. I would like for society to have degrees of female separatism established as a norm and a legally inalienable right, though. As for myself, I would happily step through a Stargate to an all-female planet and never look back lol.
(DIR) Post #AEmYfGo49hmHzE0TfU by SulphuricMirror@spinster.xyz
2021-12-26T02:04:55.004269Z
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@EatKnitSleep @sleepwalker @Jar @Ladyfat She may be putting her fear of the unknown or her fear of dying of exposure if he kicks her out or something else like that "first". I don't know every woman's situation and I don't pretend to. And women have such low self-esteem and self-worth thanks to the psy-op that is "female socialization", I try not to judge too much.
(DIR) Post #AEmbK9jbYNXLpnXlWS by sleepwalker@spinster.xyz
2021-12-26T03:11:45.478977Z
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@Jar @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat @shadow you just used a lot of words to say no true Scotsman. Yes indeed why would women fail to have attraction to men who are not only bog variety oppressors incapable of love and connection but also reduce women's existence to a fetish attire? Boggles the mind.
(DIR) Post #AEmbwrQ5a5xqKGs4J6 by Jar@spinster.xyz
2021-12-26T03:23:33.066095Z
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@sleepwalker @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat @shadow I fail to see how this is no true Scotsman. If women now are growing up expected to feel equal attraction to both males and females under transgender ideology, why would they still end up unable to have attraction to females even if they *try* to do so? Females are less violent, more empathetic, more relatable, so why would women raised under that cultural environment where bisexuality is celebrated still not end up having romantic feelings for females?
(DIR) Post #AEmccA8ws8xGGjY2e8 by Frau_BerchDUH@spinster.xyz
2021-12-26T03:30:00.954865Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@sleepwalker @Jar @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat If we're going to help, we need to help without conditions. You can't change another person's mind or emotional state or religious beliefs. You offer help, you don't offer proselytizing and lecturing and moralizing. If they need therapy, offer that and let them absorb it as they can. Otherwise you're just treating women like children, which is what patriarchy does and why it is so damaging to women.
(DIR) Post #AEmez2LCFPNUdfJOy0 by sleepwalker@spinster.xyz
2021-12-26T03:41:31.459393Z
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@Jar @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat @shadow male-loving is still celebrated everywhere like it was for millennia. What do you even mean by "bisexuality is celebrated", you mean the push to reframe attraction as stereotype-based? If so, there's no real push like that when it comes to Tifs, they're dragged along just to make TRA appear less MRA, there's no push for straight people to change their ways either, lesbians are practically the only targets of this campaign, and second why should women start liking women who hate and mutilate themselves and pretend to be men? Also can you stop ignoring the fact that political lesbianism was a real movement once and worked for many women?
(DIR) Post #AEmez2lmeYe3y7kdPM by Jar@spinster.xyz
2021-12-26T03:57:32.865357Z
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@sleepwalker @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat @shadow No I’m talking about growing up in the environment where pansexual, meaning having attraction to people regardless of their sex, and basing it solely on personality is pushed as the mainstream online trend, and now even in schools. There are subreddits and social media pages dedicated to making fun of straight relationships called “are the straights ok?” and sexual orientation is taught in school at young ages. So young people are growing up assuming that they are pansexual or bisexual and then discovering that in person, attraction does not ignore people’s sex, even for females who thought that they were bisexual and should have attraction to people regardless of their sex. Does this mean that women who fully expected to have romantic feelings for other women are somehow not trying hard enough or have some kind of internal fear to get over? Because this does happen to people now. This trend mostly harms lesbians, but all women are heavily targeted by this rhetoric. Women’s groups, regardless if they are lesbian focused are barraged with transwomen are women, expected to change their language about health conditions or and told be kind or else they are banned. Women tend to believe in the ideology more because of this campaign.I realize that political lesbianism is a thing, but why are women who genuinely expected to be attracted to both males and females still unable to have attraction to females? It seems like it does not work for everyone.
(DIR) Post #AEmmhMieXfDWGIMsoS by sleepwalker@spinster.xyz
2021-12-26T04:47:15.470688Z
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@Jar @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat @shadow well precisely, genderism is a MRA movement aimed at pushing women down, not at destroying heteronomativity. You don't see the difference between the nominal agenda and the real state of things? Nobody is expected to be bisexual, women are expected to be sexually available to men with no excuses. We're also told that we live in equality and that marriage is about love, does it mean that it's what happens in reality? Women are not and will not be expected or raised to love each other while patriarchy exists. It will certainly not be done by a male terrorism movement like genderism. Don't be ridiculous.
(DIR) Post #AEmo49wEKMh9Ek9SKW by Jar@spinster.xyz
2021-12-26T05:39:19.690637Z
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@sleepwalker @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat @shadow Look, I used to be deep in the tra stuff until early summer this year when I finally woke up. The general goal is to erode women’s boundaries as well as erode womens’ ability to make distinctions between the sexes and discuss those distinctions. Since women are targeted by this rhetoric, this has an effect on all women, but to different degrees. It does not challenge heteronormativity in that it doesn’t critique piv sex and does not allow a place for homosexuality to exist. However, the promotion of pansexuality, where you don’t factor sex into attraction, as well as not having genital preferences impacts all women in that environment. Far more young people are identifying as bisexual than before due to growing up in this environment. But many women discover that they actually have trouble with sexual attraction to other females, despite the idea that they should not have a preference one way or another. So when this happens to someone, are they not trying hard enough? What is the problem there?
(DIR) Post #AEoMKKGrGmAZW3dly4 by sleepwalker@spinster.xyz
2021-12-26T09:11:49.368156Z
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@Jar @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat @shadow look, when all "people" who are expected to be sexually available at all times are women and when almost all of "people" who are called bigoted for rejecting someone are lesbians and these "someone" are almost always men it doesn't mean that "people are expected to be pansexual". Nothing new under the sun, just men forcing women to spread legs like millennia before. Your argument depends on the idea that the cardboard cutout of progressiveness that genderists use to cover plain old patriarchy is a real thing. But if you're not deep in tra stuff anymore why do you even act like it's true?
(DIR) Post #AEoMKKlLRQYX2bu7UG by Jar@spinster.xyz
2021-12-26T23:37:55.629588Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@sleepwalker @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat @shadow “Your argument depends on the idea that the cardboard cutout of progressiveness that genderists use to cover plain old patriarchy is a real thing. But if you're not deep in tra stuff anymore why do you even act like it's true?”It isn’t progressive and it does target specifically lesbians, but young people growing up in this environment do not see that the progressive message is a facade. And having girls who are not lesbians can start considering themselves pansexual rather than straight as a side effect, opening up their consideration for a relationship with a female. For example, in this movement you are strongly encouraged to pick a gender and micro sexuality which is unrelated to attraction to the two sexes and is more related to aesthetics or planet alignments so that you can make a pretty pastel flag. So a lot of kids are trying to not be straight and identifying as some flavor of bisexual, but still having trouble not seeing sex when they get off the internet. This is not the traditional be straight and marry a man stuff.
(DIR) Post #AEoUxCR58Kcy8vTBwW by sleepwalker@spinster.xyz
2021-12-27T01:11:19.505568Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Jar @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat @shadow I still don't understand why you think that I promote genderism and that the evidence of it not working is the evidence of me being wrong.
(DIR) Post #AEoUxCuVMwABcBEgnw by Jar@spinster.xyz
2021-12-27T01:14:35.794122Z
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@sleepwalker @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat @shadow I do not think that you are promoting genderism, I’m pointing out that even growing up in an environment where pansexuality is encouraged can still result in women not developing attraction to the same sex, even if they attempt to do so and expect to be able to.
(DIR) Post #AEoYFfJymCOinwe1Ng by WeedEater@kiwifarms.cc
2021-12-27T01:51:33.249920Z
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@Jar I wish I could take your entire post and send it to my mother in law. This is so on the nose it's hurting my soul, especially with those tumblr examples provided. Thank you for your info!
(DIR) Post #AEotQzNEeyuHDePNDc by sleepwalker@spinster.xyz
2021-12-27T05:18:49.094007Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Jar @EatKnitSleep @Ladyfat @shadow and I'm saying that women are not expected to relate to each other and see each other as people under genderism. If anything women's humanity and even existence outside of male fantaisies is erased even more, women are reduced to birthing bodies, menstruating and validating vaginas, you name it. Attractive much? Women don't have the right to say no to men, regardless of their other attractions. The movement that focused on women's humanity, solidarity, focus on each other and separation from men worked fine. Then fell under a male "progressive" backlash just like now queer lesbian "rights" are falling under another one.