Post AEQautdmas3wGDZp20 by natecull@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by natecull@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #AEM7lC6RvrrP3ox7wm by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T08:38:22Z
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@openrisk An altogether alternative branch.Not HTTP based. Not client-server. Radically peer-to-peer, radically offline and syncing only when spotty local networking or sneakernet (or even a website as a sync conduit, if we must) is present.But not Ethereum based either, because, ewww.And sadly even Scuttlebutt or Gemini doesn't quite hit the spot for me.
(DIR) Post #AEM7lCXOJhPYPNYdwO by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2021-12-13T08:40:52Z
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@natecull @openrisk Take a look at hypercore if you haven’t yet. Might be closer to what you’re looking for. https://hypercore-protocol.org/
(DIR) Post #AEMFwilBeazdAC0y1I by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T07:11:30Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
I am in favour of the term "Web4" to describe small, local, personal, private, efficient, cryptography-based decentralisation that is not linked to cryptocurrency, far right money-laundering, slow non-parallel non-deleteable global public ledgers, proof-of-e-waste, proof-of-plutocracy or monetized in any other way.
(DIR) Post #AEMFwjGNmbwkiwbse0 by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T07:19:37Z
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Web 0: Literally Tim Berners-Lee's NeXT at CERN.Web 1: I'm using NCSA Mosaic to download NASA pictures of Mars, whoa!Web 2.0: TV (by Disney Netflix+) with a Buy Button (which is patented by Jeff Bezos, who also owns you)Web3: The one by David Fincher where everyone is killed off at the start, it's set in a prison colony, Sigourney Weaver shaves her head and it's a giant scam machine built by the same literal fascists who tried to do a coup. Just skip it.Web4: Maybe we get this one right?
(DIR) Post #AEMFwnZfkpkm5vfLGa by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T07:21:31Z
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I admit that I am a huge part of The Problem because I use both Netflix and Disney+,but at least I haven't yet invested in Springtime For Hitlercoins
(DIR) Post #AEMJCRip4JXgog6BF2 by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T09:58:46Z
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@bob @openrisk @aral I get that registering human-readable names and making introductions to cryptographic identities is a tricky problem, but yeah, I think both DNS and PKI are very suboptimal solutions now. I figure given elliptic curve ciphers, even QR codes ought to be a solution to 'how do I find your name/number" by now.How blocks can be stored by nodes is another problem. Some kind of "pay your way by hosting content" kind of thing maybe? But I don't wanna host child porn.
(DIR) Post #AEMJCS8hW6F66wCqZs by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2021-12-13T10:50:44Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@natecull might be interested in Holochain:https://www.holochain.org/I get the impression Nate doesn't receive my posts for some reason, so many one of you could mention it?FWIW I'm irritated by all these buzzwords using "web" despite intentionally not using the protocols that make it "the web". FreeNet isn't any kind of "web", and neither are SSB, Blockchain-based apps etc. What we're talking about is potential replacements for the web. @bob @openrisk @aral #Holochain #decentralization
(DIR) Post #AEMJCTZKCb8KXnfciO by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T10:02:08Z
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@bob @openrisk @aral (And that's not a trivial observation; Freenet, the original distributed hash table network, was kinda built on the concept of "you will host child porn and that's part of the deal, because how else do we make search efficient" and I was, nope, not gonna do that, find another way. And I'm not sure that problem has been solved yet).
(DIR) Post #AEMJJ1IhhV4mtp15Au by se7en@freespeechextremist.com
2021-12-13T10:52:10.397094Z
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@strypey @natecull @aral Is there any implemented version of this?
(DIR) Post #AEMJQKWsbia2Yy8IfA by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2021-12-13T10:51:24Z
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@natecull might be interested in Holochain:https://www.holochain.org/I get the impression Nate doesn't receive my posts for some reason, so maybe one of you could mention it?FWIW I'm irritated by all these buzzwords using "web" despite intentionally not using the protocols that make it "the web". FreeNet isn't any kind of "web", and neither are SSB, Blockchain-based apps etc. What we're talking about is potential replacements for the web. @bob @openrisk @aral #Holochain #decentralization
(DIR) Post #AEMKjVWC4hYI6JWJqi by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2021-12-13T11:08:08Z
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@se7en Do you mean Holochain? It's still fairly experimental, but have a look at:https://holo.host/
(DIR) Post #AENCJmURkLSajXsuxM by Azure@tailswish.industries
2021-12-13T21:08:33.773919Z
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@natecull So, question: Why local?All the other stuff I agree with, but the sneakernet/wi-fi grid seems to take connecting to people I can't easily walk to off the table.
(DIR) Post #AENCZ6ledZhLy1F4fg by hhardy01@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T21:11:08Z
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@Azure @natecull RFC 2549IP over Avian Carriers with Quality of Servicehttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2549
(DIR) Post #AENDYomJcZZM80ycsq by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T21:18:55Z
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@Azure Because every time data packets traverse a geographical barrier, they travel through Someone Else's Computer, and that Someone Else almost certainly does NOT have your best privacy interests at heart.Currently we have the absolutely insanely dangerous situation where, eg, you can literally push a button on a doorbell in your house, and your doorbell button maybe communicates with your doorbell speaker by sending an Internet packet to the USA and back (and you don't live in the USA).
(DIR) Post #AENDYpFNsUozaAZqC0 by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T21:20:41Z
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@Azure This sort of thing, imo, should NOT happen.But it only won't happen if we explicitly make it clear, as a fundamental design principle, that "data should remain geographically local - or on systems you physically control - unless absolutely necessary".Data should stay first on your phone. Then on your local LAN. Then on your home server. Then on an encrypted tunnel through your ISP. It shouldn't leave your city if the endpoint is in your city.
(DIR) Post #AENDYpfcIxnytWqn56 by Azure@tailswish.industries
2021-12-13T21:22:28.938452Z
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@natecull All right, so not so much giving up on communicating with things that are far away, just not involving things that are far away if you're communicating to next door.(I do despise the way data will go from your phone to some server and then from the server back to a device next to you all because the Architects of Mist and Vapor think two hosts connecting to each other is just an unthinkable task.)
(DIR) Post #AENDYtT0Bo5ifYylyS by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T21:22:27Z
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@Azure Yes, if you have no other option you should *be able to* use IP to talk to a website and use that to exchange data.But you should be very aware that probably every commercial web host is bugged, that agencies or corporates can if they want read everything hosted on it, and so you shouldn't necessarily make that your first data channel.If sneakernet or local LAN or local WiFi is available, that MUST be used FIRST.
(DIR) Post #AENHCmaLUgUWlx7tIm by kornel@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T12:13:10Z
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@bob @natecull TLS today has very little to do with Netscape's. ACME and CT have fixed the most glaring problems of PKI. I think the remaining complaints now are just from people who distrust (in social sense) any authorities (in political sense), and incorrectly apply non-technical meaning to "trusting" "authorities" in cryptographic sense. TLS is merely an out-of-bounds check of a private key (it'd be so hot if it was called a "wallet" instead!)
(DIR) Post #AENHCmyS33m1yiP8sK by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T21:08:22Z
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@kornel @bob "TLS is merely an out-of-bounds check of a private key"I... don't think that can be true, at all?There's a whole PKI infrastructure of Certification Authorities behind TLS.I guess it's not TLS the protocol that I dislike but rather the social/economic infrastructure of CAs, such that to do TLS in practice you MUST HAVE a relationship with a CA (like Let's Encrypt, say), and that CA could turn you off with the flick of a switch by refusing to renew your cert.
(DIR) Post #AENHCnRAKIk5Plq4dE by kornel@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T21:31:40Z
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@natecull From technical perspective, you just need enough CAs to exist that they can't all collude to keep you off the Internet. PKI + CT isn't really that different from a Proof-of-Stake cryptocurrency, only the stake is in real money. In a proof-of-stake cryptocurrency all stakers could collude to keep you out too.
(DIR) Post #AENHCnr2m5RUi1wjy4 by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T21:33:21Z
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@kornel "From technical perspective, you just need enough CAs to exist that they can't all collude to keep you off the Internet. "Really? Are you sure about that? How about the money they charge?Would be interesting to see what happens to the free Web -- now that TLS is mandatory and Let's Encrypt has become the only free CA - if Let's Encrypt just one day shut down.Three months later, all the free Web would be dead, wouldn't it?Do you really think new CAs would jump into that gap?
(DIR) Post #AENHCoGZFBrJzBt7ke by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T21:35:21Z
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@kornel For comparison, I can generate my own private key by rolling some physical dice in my lounge and creating a Minilock / Curve25519 key and write that on a piece of paper and give it to you and NO THIRD PARTY AT ALL ever needs to know we had that conversation.How is the PKI method involving CAs in any way better than - or even comparable to - that?
(DIR) Post #AENHCokLSTg7TXouAK by kornel@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T21:37:26Z
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@natecull What you've described is a PSK system. There's also TOFU alternative. But CA/PKI solves a harder problem: identity check *without* a prior contact with the recipient.
(DIR) Post #AENHCpBdozVqqCahiC by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T21:40:47Z
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@kornel And for much of the free Web, my identity isn't anyone's business and I don't see why I should be forced to set up a TLS CA registration just to make Google happy.In a sane system I could still sign all my posts so you know they're all from crypto identity "1234abcde" and haven't been changed in transit or over time, and who or what "1234abcde" is just is not. your. business.If you absolutely NEED to track 1234abcde back to some OTHER identity, then yes THAT's when PKI comes in.
(DIR) Post #AENHCpbWGmDG8ShN32 by kornel@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T21:41:45Z
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@natecull That's TOFU.
(DIR) Post #AENHCq0KmW3vNQJBj6 by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T21:42:03Z
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@kornel I haven't heard that acronym before. Can you point me to a definition?
(DIR) Post #AENHCqQDEIlKfgPr3w by kornel@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T21:42:13Z
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@natecull Trust on First Use.
(DIR) Post #AENHCqrVaob42LBebo by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T21:44:32Z
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@kornel And it's basically all Let's Encrypt provides, isn't it? Since LE certificates only prove that "the entity publishing this website controls the DNS for this website" which, no kidding, that's quite a surprising fact and adds a lot of knowledge to my trust vector about this website.Yet somehow to get to this, and not get a browser security popup, I have to insert this third-party organization into my website who can shut it down at any time just by not even doing anything.
(DIR) Post #AENHCrIRye9DNtnAbQ by kornel@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T21:49:10Z
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@natecull The CA<>origin connection is indeed a vulnerable part of the system, which relies more on physical network security (multiple perspectives) rather than cryptography. At best there's some BGP RPKI to help, which is another PKI system, but for ISPs.
(DIR) Post #AENHCrjOMThMjSOgb2 by kornel@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T21:50:25Z
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@natecull But the important part is that once the CA<>origin verification is established, even if it's basically TOFU, then everyone else can reuse that verification right from the start, without each user exposing themselves to TOFU risk individually.
(DIR) Post #AENHCs7UuqyrwDfwAa by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T21:55:19Z
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@kornel I can see that such toplevel identity <-> crypto-identity assignment is an actual usecase where public, non-repudiatable blockchains do solve an actual problem.Basically both DNS and CAs are two separate ways of solving this problem and we've somehow ended up with both of them (and I'm guessing it's because DNS was the ARPANET approach while X.500 was the OSI approach, and both systems were still in play in the early 1990s when SSL was hammered out)
(DIR) Post #AENHCsUBYV834aI3X6 by kornel@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T21:58:41Z
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@natecull Bare DNS not really, because it gives you IPs, and these are just as MITMable as domains themselves. DNSSEC + DANE or DNSSEC + IPSec keep a chain of trust, but these technologies are dead.But all of these have the same architecture. You get a root cert with your computer, then can verify authenticity of domains using that cert (and some certs in between signed in a chain).
(DIR) Post #AENHCst04EyiJXtsDA by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T21:59:53Z
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@kornel It is very interesting to me to ask why DNSSEC and IPSEC died.It probably doesn't have anything to do with the last 20 years of the War On Terror and the USA's very strong interest in absolutely controlling the cryptography space.
(DIR) Post #AENHCtIWXLOXahqFzk by Azure@tailswish.industries
2021-12-13T22:03:13.738427Z
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@natecull I don't know if DNSSEC /died/, but it certainly wasn't helped by corporate IT departments wanting the ability to inject false responses to DNS queries.(DNS blackholes, for example)IPSec, I'm willing to guess, collapsed under the weight of complexity.(Though I know someone who was involved with it who says the NSA was a factor in its design ending up as difficult, complex, and fragile as it was.)@kornel
(DIR) Post #AENHRQ4VTsXbI9DHjk by Azure@tailswish.industries
2021-12-13T22:05:58.815293Z
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@natecull Also just plain incompetence. systemd-resolved wanted to support DNSSEC out of the box, but it violates the spec badly enough a lot of perfectly valid domains error out. So instead of having DNS queries secured by default on new Linux systems, as could have happened, all the distributions just turn its DNSSEC support off completely.@kornel
(DIR) Post #AENIH9vYkZWOHNhRAm by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T22:14:02Z
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@Azure @kornel Huh. Systemd doing the wrong thing to Linux.That's a very surprising turn of events!
(DIR) Post #AENIwSasFng02qiZzE by coopdot@chaos.social
2021-12-13T14:08:05Z
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@natecull "Web 3.0" used to be the semantic webhttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_Web
(DIR) Post #AEOsmDIjXLZnUNowLY by whami@weirder.earth
2021-12-14T15:53:54Z
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@natecull @Azure Ha. At the exact same time I read this I am sitting in a hotel room watching my husband move files from my friend's computer to his using a USB plug instead of via anything touching the hotel WiFi or beyond.
(DIR) Post #AEOvaSUHY4leyZJCgC by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-14T17:10:30.685059Z
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@natecull Springtime for Hitlercoins? What is that supposed to be a metaphor for?
(DIR) Post #AEOvgxPxSnlSdrNwOG by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-14T17:11:41.236406Z
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@natecull Crypto enthusiasts are 'literal fascists'? Really? Come on now, you're smarter than that (I vainly hope).
(DIR) Post #AEOvtAK7J1t88xTSsq by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T08:45:22Z
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@aral @openrisk Append-only-log kills it for me, sorry.I neither need nor want that. I want the right to quietly forget my mistakes (others are welcome to trawl them up IF they want to pay for storing them). What I need and want is to be able to randomly generate my own private key, sign the current hash and version number of my "home page' with that, then sync my homepage hash and blocks of the data making up that page with others somehow.How storage is paid for is a problem I guess.
(DIR) Post #AEOvtAnBYx8lb74gC0 by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-14T17:13:53.640788Z
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@natecull @aral @openrisk IPFS sounds like it will work for you then.
(DIR) Post #AEOvxRuRrbPNqNVinw by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T09:17:07Z
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@openrisk @aral I think so. I remember the BBS era, where both sharing and subscriptions coexisted, but we had more fun on the boards we didn't have to pay for.I'd like a world where we didn't need either web hosts or mandatory HTTPS certificate granting authorities inserting themselves into our business. That's probably impossible since Google controls the browsers and Wants TLS Everywhere, but, if all our posts were already signed/encrypted end to end, why would we need TLS as well?
(DIR) Post #AEOzqebkeVS516mSR6 by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-14T17:58:15.811922Z
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@strypey @se7en I'm suspicious of anything that has an ICO.
(DIR) Post #AEP0L4VEwKs614Et84 by eldaking@weirder.earth
2021-12-13T17:42:42Z
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@natecull Considering the trend, maybe we should be trying web -1 instead.
(DIR) Post #AEP0L4rvZz1H9Qr0Ua by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T20:41:10Z
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@eldaking Pretty sure Web -1 was FidoNet.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FidoNet
(DIR) Post #AEP0L6cP4fn2ZrbdZY by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T20:45:41Z
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@eldaking The 1996 peak from this random Russian guy's graph which I'm sure is extremely peer-reviewed does fit with my personal anecdotal experience.I was on BBSes from I dunno, 1986 maybe? But FidoNet only from about 1991 to 1996. After 1996 came the BBS crash as major telcos became ISPs and everyone rapidly switched from BBS to Internet and Web technologies (and the whole local-first BBS social fabric fell apart in the process).
(DIR) Post #AEP0XpYno6ifRAzP04 by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T20:55:42Z
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@3np "Blockchains should only come into play where necessary/useful....Effectively though, you fundamentally can not have one without the existence of the other"I... don't think that logically follows?I want a private-key signed publishing system so that I can publish immutable (hash-indexed) blocks of data (with some well-known format, probably text, heck, even Gemini maybe, as a default but not the only one)...... and I *don't* want any append-only stuff to be baked INTO that.
(DIR) Post #AEP0XpyKHD8UiKvmme by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T20:58:19Z
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@3np Obviously using a signed-publishing protocol people COULD implement blockchains ON TOP of that, and that's great for them if that's a thing they want.(that could enable all the crime, etc, which would be bad, but I don't have to be part of that)But I don't want to be forced to not have the ability to ever edit or delete my own index to my own data, which I feel is what the "append-only" part of "blockchain" means.Non-repudiation is okay for SHARED, but not privately authored, data.
(DIR) Post #AEP1z3WG7FhcVGLU4O by kornel@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T22:04:39Z
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@natecull I think it's less grand than this. They're just technically difficult to deploy (think IPv6, but harder), and DNSSEC is a CA system, but the CAs are hardcoded and irreplaceable (you literally have to trust Verizon).
(DIR) Post #AEP2GH7imyf5cR4y6C by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T22:08:40Z
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@kornel but is it impossible to imagine that these systems ended up technically difficult to deploy and broken by design... just like all the encrypted email systems... because, um, perhaps some of the people on the technical committees weren't, how shall we say, entirely committed to their success?I mean there's literally both the NSA and a US Cyber Command whose goal is to do offensive cyber warfare, but neither of these two organizations have any influence on Silicon Valley, right?
(DIR) Post #AEP2GHXFG54utb1Lsm by kornel@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T22:13:12Z
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@natecull I've heard a hypothesis that if NSA wanted to sabotage encryption on the Internet, the current OpenSSL API design would be the best way to do it.
(DIR) Post #AEP2GHwljBUkAkxjfM by kornel@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T22:14:57Z
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@natecull I'm not a fan of imperialism and meddling of 3-letter agencies, but I'd rather not discuss it. Especially in "crypto" context that leads to "all gov bad, trust noone, let's do mad max instead".
(DIR) Post #AEP2NdmExi1Ju9XlZ2 by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-14T18:26:38.057414Z
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@kornel @natecull all gov bad, trust no one, let’s do mad max peaceful anarchy instead
(DIR) Post #AEP2THOx4DM6FHL6rA by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T22:19:31Z
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@kornel Still, I think my original point stands.If someone shut down Let's Encrypt, there would be a vast amount of collateral damage all across the Internet, because it's now a central failure node that wasn't there before.And I'm not convinced that the forever existence of a nonprofit in the USA is completely assured.I'm not entirely happy that Wikipedia and the Internet Archive are both single nonprofit entities either. But at least if those shut down, my website still loads.
(DIR) Post #AEP2d2aYzl7lCUQQS0 by kornel@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T22:24:09Z
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@natecull I agree that shutdown of LE would be awfully disruptive, but I don't think that's a fundamental problem of CA PKI. The system supports many CAs. If we had more ACME-based CAs, we could make clients just fall back to other ones.Getting more free CAs is more of a funding problem, than a protocol problem.Have you heard of Perspectives as a replacement for CAs?
(DIR) Post #AEP2d33dFgNOee1dlA by kornel@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T22:27:23Z
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@natecull There was a proposal to make a more "p2p" system of CA. Each site could use any cert it wants (self-signed). Anyone anywhere could observe what key the site serves (like CA verification). Then any use could pick a few observers they trust, and if all observers report the same key, that's an assurance that they don't lie, and that network hasn't been hacked, because it'd be too hard to MITM so many random networks at the same time.
(DIR) Post #AEP2d7F7gtwddRQsE4 by kornel@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T22:30:02Z
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@natecull And in the end Google's answer to this was:1. We have to ship some default observers with Chrome, because we can't have a browser broken until user enters some IP addresses.2. Approximately nobody changes defaults.3. We can't send billions of users to some amateurs on the internet.4. Therefore we'd have to run observers ourselves, or fund some companies large enough to maintain them.5. Congratulations, that's a CA system.
(DIR) Post #AEP2twkjwhy41XFLoO by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T22:32:21Z
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@kornel It might be *like* a CA system, but it seems like it would be much, much, simpler.But sure, maybe the current 30-year-old system we have is the only possible one.
(DIR) Post #AEP2txAGPoNtIhBjay by kornel@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T22:34:28Z
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@natecull I think the problem boils down to some unavoidable fundamentals:1. you can have direct secure connection if the address is itself cryptographically secure (like tor private servies). but these will be unreadable.2. If you want nice names, you have to have nice names to addresses database, and have to trust it to map properly.
(DIR) Post #AEP2txYMyBfOVSSzAW by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T22:36:02Z
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@kornel Yep.Resolving human names to crypto identifiers is the real problem, I think, and that's the one that's very tough to solve, because human friendly names are scarce resources, so MAYBE "charge lots of money to a third party to rent a name every year, creating a small class of naming-infrastructure billionaires" is the only possible way of preventing namesquatting .
(DIR) Post #AEP3694200bJgI5Qq8 by kornel@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T22:38:57Z
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@natecull That's even before human problems like namesquatting.We don't have a solution for making secure connections without establishing a chain of trust.All of the solutions only rearrange pieces of how the chain is built and maintained. It can start with certs in your root store, it can start with a root block of a blockchain. You can have a proof-of-stake of unicorn coins, or proof-of-stake of dollars and CAB forum paperwork.
(DIR) Post #AEP369UcP9rt0kWfHU by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T22:40:31Z
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@kornel "We don't have a solution for making secure connections without establishing a chain of trust."Why do you need a solution for secure connections without a chain of trust, if the address itself - just like a telephone number - is the connection?People used to have Rolodexes and business cards to exchange telephone numbers. Why couldn't they again, for crypto address strings?
(DIR) Post #AEP36CfiaLWss2k4Uy by kornel@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T22:40:21Z
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@natecull You can pay for maintenance of the system either with direct fees or donations to Mozilla, or with dollars pumped into sales of newly hashed blocks. In the end someone has to have hardware and networks and time to run them, and blockchains don't do these directly.
(DIR) Post #AEP36DaRBStphxHMuG by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T22:42:05Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@kornel Ie, print your crypto string in a newspaper. If they publish it wrong, sue them.Why are all of these 20th century telephony solutions impossible all of a sudden "because Internet"?
(DIR) Post #AEP3u3tPV46G7bv9Tk by kornel@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T22:44:39Z
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@natecull Those are chains of trust. You can't invent a destination address out of thin air, so you have to rely on someone else—whom you must trust—to give it to you.
(DIR) Post #AEP3u4NXh2Cdd41DRg by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T22:45:14Z
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@kornel The entire business world ran on this system for a century. How is this impossible, suddenly?
(DIR) Post #AEP3u4mMCm3Is1d27k by kornel@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T22:46:16Z
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@natecull The civilisation has ran on chains of trust since the beginning.But cryptographic security is a new thing, and telephones didn't have it.
(DIR) Post #AEP3u5CwbvJsCU4GZ6 by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T22:49:38Z
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@kornel I'm saying that Curve25519 crypto identities are very short, typeable strings just like phone numbers are. And we get crypto security for free.They're a little longer. But they're not huge and impractical like RSA keys were.A public key can fit on a QR code, now.So we could use them just like phone numbers. Resurrect all those century-old business practices. The Rolodex. The Business Card. Personal introductions. Posters. Billboards. QR codes.Am I missing something here?
(DIR) Post #AEP3u5c76LS7SXqMnQ by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-14T18:43:40.360387Z
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@natecull @kornel I don't know about Curve25519 but, say, IPv6 addresses can be much longer, too long to memorise. So it's not going to work for everything.Blockchain is the only known solution to Zooko's triangle. Unless maybe we use a petname system, but I don't really know how those are supposed to work.
(DIR) Post #AEP3u5iUicYZmKpSk4 by kornel@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T22:45:13Z
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@natecull You can sometimes make the chain short by meeting site's author personally.
(DIR) Post #AEP40gOnFQonHfl0Jk by enlight@decept.org
2021-12-13T23:45:41.573830Z
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@natecull @kornel Curve25519 is used in ECDSA which is a digital signature algorithm, it is not a cryptographic algorithm. How are you going to encrypt ?you might be talking about ECDH
(DIR) Post #AEP40goJiXEcYphO6K by kornel@mastodon.social
2021-12-13T23:48:12Z
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@enlight @natecull Encryption and authentication are separable. We were discussing the authentication.DH is great, but it can't resist an active MITM attack, which is why an extra authentication is needed.
(DIR) Post #AEP40hB0MBNnhCJVSq by enlight@decept.org
2021-12-14T00:03:52.326300Z
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@kornel @natecull DH is not vulnerable to MITM.security.stackexchange.com/questions/184248/is-diffie-hellman-key-exchange-protocol-vulnerable-to-man-in-the-middle-attack
(DIR) Post #AEP40hXgzpWypYvcpM by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-14T00:14:18Z
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@enlight @kornel Doesn't this article literally say "DH resists MITM by using Certificate Authorities" ?which feels like it means that DH is doing very little magic on its own if it has to rely on an external third party to prove identity, but maybe that's just me
(DIR) Post #AEP40hvnYCoU2KCsOu by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-14T00:17:02Z
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@enlight @kornel It seems to me that with 2021's crypto technology we could do Certificate Authorities much cheaper than we could in 1991, but,the very last people I would trust to be anywhere near the role of "even nearly completely trustless third party" would be anyone involved in 2021's blockchain or cryptocurrency scenenot technically, just socially
(DIR) Post #AEP4AO2cM8mHFE0nKa by berkes@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-12-14T08:28:30Z
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@natecull Thats a lot of things it isn't.I like the idea. A lot. The pitch needs some work, though. Positive (it fixes X, allows Y) rather than negative (its not Z) often helps😃
(DIR) Post #AEP4AORmqYuWVHmtYu by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-14T08:30:28Z
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@berkes It's not a pitch. It's a list of things I personally hate.
(DIR) Post #AEP4AOsNFiB5pkE80G by berkes@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-12-14T08:31:24Z
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@natecull so why would we want web4?
(DIR) Post #AEP4APGpmlkB3bff84 by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-14T08:34:19Z
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@berkes I have no idea why *you* might want it. You either know you do or you don't.Why *I* want it?I want a new decentralised replacement for the Web. I've wanted it for a long time.And now a thing is coming along called "Web3" that claims to be that thing that I want, but it's made of ghouls and horror and naked speculative capitalism without even the *pretence* of a product underneath. So why I want a Web4, is to distance myself as far from both Web 2.0 and Web3 as I can get.
(DIR) Post #AEP4AQ9QVnPdmvDGDo by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-14T08:31:10Z
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@berkes If you're trying to pitch, you've already lost your soul.
(DIR) Post #AEP4ATywGjOrfYKwQi by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-14T08:38:51Z
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@berkes So the "pitch", if you can call it that is:"Decentralism, but without Nazi vampire zombies eating your brain"I'm not sure how to describe a thing that is about not having something, without saying what the thing is that I don't want to have.Why Web 2.0 isn't good enough? Because it's full of Cloud and Adtech.Why Web3 isn't good enough? Because it's full of neofascists scamming each other; that is in fact its main selling point.I'd like both of those worlds out of my computer.
(DIR) Post #AEP4AVXMUEWsUbRwiu by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-14T08:48:19Z
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@berkes It is quite a challenge to try to formulate my vision in positive terms because I see it in negative terms. "Freedom from" a rolling disaster.I suppose that's why it's more aspirational than it is practical.If you just want to get stuff done in society, you'll put up with whatever hoops society requires you to jump through, which today is Adtech and tomorrow, if the Web3 people succeed, might well be Literal Fascism.I guess what i'd like, in positive terms, is an escape hatch.
(DIR) Post #AEP4AX8GYVdxRLivsu by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-14T08:51:08Z
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@berkes To try to make the terms a little more positive:I want a shared computing realm where money, power and greed are not the dominating influence, as it is today in Adtech and Cryptocurrency.Still negative, sorry! I'll try better.A shared computing realm which is inherently secure and private (is privacy a "negative"? it is a thing very hard to demonstrate that you have except by proving its absence) and which helps its users think clearer, and act more kindly towards each other.
(DIR) Post #AEP4AZStslKyfvORKC by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-14T08:55:43Z
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@berkes Also, a shared computing realm which is robust to external forces which would either break its lines of communication, or change its character.That would mean being robust against the waves of both natural disasters and social disasters that we expect to see during this century.The social disasters might take the form of any or all of: economic crashes; unavailability of replacement hardware; no reliable Internet; pervasive cybercrime; authoritarian government; militant extremists.
(DIR) Post #AEPAvmP0CQcI8OSpCi by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-14T20:02:26.762713Z
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@kornel @natecull 'mad max' was supposed to have a line through it but apparently that doesn't work on Mastodon, only Pleroma (and Misskey?)
(DIR) Post #AEPBQsVjXPaK3aRQMy by anubis2814@social.isurf.ca
2021-12-14T20:07:59Z
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A pitch is just education and making it in a way people who don't care can understand it and make them care and do more research.
(DIR) Post #AEPBWrD7Hk8PlHaIMK by berkes@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-12-14T08:53:27Z
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@natecull The positive spin might be something like:Centralisation leads to tech polarisation, decayed privacy, surveillance state.This is web2. Decentralization fixes that. One way to achieve decentralization is to put monetary incentives to run it, this is web3. This inevitably come with scammers, waste, greed and more polarization. Web4 achieves decentralisation by giving you friendly peers, freedom. ... (I've a hard time finding why people would participate.)
(DIR) Post #AEPBWrczjWpp3XgxhA by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-14T08:58:02Z
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@berkes A reasonably good summary, but if you can't imagine why people might participate in anything that isn't a means of making money, then Web4 probably isn't for you and you would probably be happier in one of the other two Webs.
(DIR) Post #AEPCxsn5cNCeR3rS9w by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-14T20:19:02Z
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@Hyolobrika Not all cryptocurrency "enthusiasts" are literal fascists,but,literal fascists are the biggest cryptocurrency "enthusiasts"because of the crimes and the fascism that they need money laundering for. And their desire to get insanely rich extremely fast so that they can hold power over others.
(DIR) Post #AEPDnyX9VjfFIzFKkq by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-14T20:23:10Z
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@3np "anything that limits "far right money laundering" on a technical level as part of our common protocols and stacks will also mean a withdrawal of individual digital freedom."That's not the main problem.The main problem is that the cryptocurrency and blockchain space is *built by and for* far-right money launderers.It's not just that "this technology could let this happen". It's that *the very specific people making this very specific technology are, specifically, doing this".
(DIR) Post #AEPDnz5BTCt10XAVnc by like50bears@shitposter.club
2021-12-14T20:34:39.175314Z
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@natecull lmao, nigger.
(DIR) Post #AEPDo2rrOgbakMxvaS by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-14T20:26:59Z
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@3np I have three separate concerns:1. Privacy - can be and is abused, but is worth doing for itself. But I don't want to personally enable the worst actors.2. "Blockchain", ie public, world-writeable, append-only logs. These have only a tiny set of uses, have some very bad negatives, and are oversold right now. Public key encryption and hashing without chaining are much more general and interesting.3.Proof-of-work, proof-of-stake, proof-of-storage: disastrously terrible.
(DIR) Post #AEPDry7B0iF9AF05hI by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-14T20:32:23Z
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@anubis2814 @berkes Depends who you're pitching to and why.If you're pitching to someone with money or power or popularity because you want money or power or popularity, and so you keep rewording your ideas to attract their attention so you can get those things,then you have lost your soul.Because the desire for money or power or popularity will take over your desire to make a good thing.This is what's happened to both social media and the crypto space. I saw it happen in realtime.
(DIR) Post #AEPDryYpLuMSXzwAnQ by anubis2814@social.isurf.ca
2021-12-14T20:34:23Z
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Yeah but a simple web4 pitch isn't souless, if anything its putting a soul back into the internet, though sadly trying to get average people to switch to the fediverse in a way they can understand is nearly impossible why we have to create better pitches to them.
(DIR) Post #AEPIwC4zX0MJP7oR4S by berkes@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-12-14T08:58:33Z
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@natecull clarity and kindness sound like good solutions.Generally a pitch describes a problem (I.e. the things you want to avoid or fix). And then the solution.So negativism, AFAICs is not bad, as long as it describes the problem. The solution then is positive.do you also hate a smelly toilet? Here's PoopieGone, a fragrant si fresh it pushes all bad things away?😃
(DIR) Post #AEPIwCQyDHwKVI5zKS by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-14T08:59:50Z
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@berkes I mean I suspect that since you have "bitcoin" in your username, that you are literally trying to build Web3, so I wish you well in that pursuit, but I want to stay quite a long way away from it.
(DIR) Post #AEPIwCoMoIeffr2fnU by berkes@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-12-14T09:13:04Z
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@natecull Yes. And no. I do believe that (monetary) incentives are required for any free/open(source) project to thrive over the long term. I thought that web3 could be that. I'm not certain if web3 can overcome the laser-eyed moneygrabbing mobs, though. So I think that incentive is too strong and has killed it.I don't know the solution, but I think it will be some middleground. Web4 could be that.
(DIR) Post #AEPQmdkEcKIdwa3iyW by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-14T23:00:04.795422Z
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@natecull>the cryptocurrency and blockchain space is *built by and for* far-right money launderers.Prove it.
(DIR) Post #AEPQqLpVAPAtXWIB7I by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-14T23:00:44.952111Z
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@natecull>proof-of-stake, proof-of-storage: disastrously terribleWhy?
(DIR) Post #AEPVGPviwaV7bPt4tc by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-14T23:08:36Z
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@Hyolobrika because both of 1) they grant more power over the network to people with more money, which if you want a society ruled by a tyrannical authoritarian elite, that's exactly how you get it2) they create an incentive for the deliberate waste of energy and destruction of electronics, both of which are frankly evil
(DIR) Post #AEPVGQKtR0dMrTfB7w by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-14T23:50:16.073770Z
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@natecull1)Do you have a better solution to the fact that banks and government (i.e. people with money) control our economy and our lives?Everything works that way btw. Including other kinds of decentralised networks (if you can pay for an instance or even just a regular old forum (the web is a decentralised network) you have power over your users)2)I don’t understand this one. I specifically removed ‘proof of work’ from the quote because I know the criticisms. I left ‘proof of stake’ and ‘proof of storage’. How is the former wasteful? The latter is only wasteful if it is not catalytic (i.e. if the space and disk i/o cannot be used for other things). Filecoin uses catalytic proof of storage.
(DIR) Post #AEPVXniXkwUEIi0m12 by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-14T23:52:59.557537Z
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@natecull| 1)Do you have a better solution to the fact that banks and government (i.e. people with money) control our economy and our lives?Everything works that way btw. Including other kinds of decentralised networks (if you can pay for an instance or even just a regular old forum (the web is a decentralised network) you have power over your users)| 2)I don’t understand this one. I specifically removed ‘proof of work’ from the quote because I know the criticisms. I left ‘proof of stake’ and ‘proof of storage’. How is the former wasteful? The latter is only wasteful if it is not catalytic (i.e. if the space and disk i/o cannot be used for other things). Filecoin uses catalytic proof of storage.
(DIR) Post #AEPVXz87KCTlhD3qu8 by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-14T23:52:41.688766Z
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@natecull| 1)Do you have a better solution to the fact that banks and government (i.e. people with money) control our economy and our lives?Everything works that way btw. Including other kinds of decentralised networks (if you can pay for an instance or even just a regular old forum (the web is a decentralised network) you have power over your users)| 2)I don't understand this one. I specifically removed 'proof of work' from the quote because I know the criticisms. I left 'proof of stake' and 'proof of storage'. How is the former wasteful? The latter is only wasteful if it is not catalytic (i.e. if the space and disk i/o cannot be used for other things). [Filecoin](https://docs.filecoin.io/) uses catalytic proof of storage.
(DIR) Post #AEPVjC0LnUDuoNlxmy by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-14T23:53:40Z
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@Hyolobrika Proof of stake isn't *wasteful* per se. But it's literally just naked plutocracy. It's saying "yeah, just let the biggest billionaires literally mint their own currency, that will surely create economic equality".Not what you would want to put in a protocol if you really wanted banks and people with money not to control your lives.Proof-of-work also does this, just indirectly. The richest billionaire can buy and burn the most GPUs or hard drives. That's not democracy.
(DIR) Post #AEPXoHSP9UuH4vRs6y by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-15T00:18:48.423879Z
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@natecull So what about catalytic proof of storage?
(DIR) Post #AEPdvmCJrDYmAdslBQ by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T00:42:48Z
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@Hyolobrika I don't know what that specifically is, but any kind of "proof that you control X amount of hardware capacity" suffers from the same two problems:1) the richer the investor, the more hardware they can buy, so it's just automatically handing money-printing machines to the richest investors, so it will automatically generate accelerating economic inequality2) its use as a speculative investment will cause hardware to become much more expensive to use for its *actual* purpose
(DIR) Post #AEPdvmgo1rwjhC96hc by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T00:47:32Z
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@Hyolobrika and 3)the entire concept of using computers to create artificial scarcity makes me angry.You're taking a world of inherent abundance, and using it to create scarcity, so that you can copy the economic behaviour of old scarce assets in order to make a few people, selected from an ecosystem heavily stacked with actual criminals, rich.Instead, we should work out how to use digital abundance (the fact that knowledge naturally copies rather than moves) to create social abundance.
(DIR) Post #AEPdvn5yWI4yxFvCvw by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-15T01:27:22.987802Z
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@natecull Cryptocurrency doesn't destroy that digital abundance though. You are thinking of DRM. (NFTs/CryptoArt sort of tries in a way, but pathetically).The idea is to make a digital *currency*. Do you think that currency should be able to be endlessly copied?
(DIR) Post #AEPdvqqWZg64aUivPE by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T00:52:24Z
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@Hyolobrika I admit that this last part is a very hard problem. There's room for a lot of different approaches to it.But that's what I think we should be doing instead of creating currencies or tradable speculative assets: Working on ways to use computers to help humans share their time and resources, and multiply their productivity, in ways that don't require a notion of currency and are resistant to abuse by criminals OR elites.Volunteer communities. Gift economies. Reputation systems.
(DIR) Post #AEPdvsjrXPxMSPcdIe by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T01:00:55Z
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@Hyolobrika We should also not be using real-world commodities - eg houses - as speculative investments either. It's destroying our cities.Changing the mindset that this kind of "investment" driven economic behaviour is "normal" rather than destructive, will be hard. That's why I think it will be easier to try out new ways of behaving in new net-based communities.On the upside, there's a huge space for social entrepreneurship. Just not the kind that expects to personally get rich/powerful.
(DIR) Post #AEPeGyN3nCuK0T0tM0 by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-15T01:31:13.442576Z
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@natecull| 1)Is that better or worse than handing a money-printing machine to the *government*, the most powerful and also a pretty damn rich entity?| 2)That doesn't apply with catalytic proof of storage.
(DIR) Post #AEPehMZ0T2XuZHBX6m by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-15T01:35:59.238146Z
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@natecull>In order to make a few people richWho is trying to do that?
(DIR) Post #AEPf8WSVmjxD4n67ma by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-15T01:40:52.940259Z
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@natecull Doesn't a gift economy rely on having a consistent identity across interactions? Not everyone wants that. I for one, like to change my username when I go on a different site occasionally. Not everyone wants to have all their words linked back to their main username. This is why I like Owncast's signin-free approach to usernames.
(DIR) Post #AEPfoOvKBvV1ruXn6m by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T01:29:03Z
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@Hyolobrika "The idea is to make a digital *currency*"Yes, that's precisely the part that I think is foolish.Look around you; humankind's obsession with acquiring currency is destroying the world. Why would we want to replicate that obsession online?In the digital world, we have the chance to be better. We shouldn't throw that away.
(DIR) Post #AEPfoPLYcOU1BGojzs by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-15T01:48:27.087310Z
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@natecull So, you are saying that we shouldn't buy things online, only in the real world? I'm sure you don't follow that rule yourself.Btw, why is people's desire to acquire currency destroying the world? This is something I've never thought to ask until now.
(DIR) Post #AEPgGW0vQIdhy1ZNKK by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T01:39:55Z
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@Hyolobrika You are, if you're promoting cryptocurrency.It is the direct result of the economic system that you've chosen to promote. It's what that system does. Pure capitalism concentrates wealth. It does not spread it.
(DIR) Post #AEPgGX49VmobEK5Szo by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-15T01:53:32.518489Z
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@natecull I meant who *intends* to do that. Certainly not me.
(DIR) Post #AEQWAjfcvmpyCWAlpw by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-14T19:32:07Z
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@berkes Agreed. I'd like for there to be sustainable ongoing development where people get paid fairly for services, but not speculative monetization where the incentive is just to create artificial and deflationary digital scarcity. What systems could best help separate those two, I'm not sure.I don't even really think "Web4" is a particularly useful term at this point. Maybe "Small Web", as others have suggested.
(DIR) Post #AEQWAk5rMFoxVsRij2 by berkes@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-12-14T19:34:06Z
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@natecull The IndieWeb is still out there. https://indieweb.org/Sounds like you may like that?
(DIR) Post #AEQWAkb3UGm54d2dLk by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-14T20:29:44Z
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@berkes Close, but I don't want HTTP client-server based technology. I want something like Secure Scuttlebutt - local, peer-to-peer, agnostic of networking technology - but without forcing append-only logs on me.If I accidentally post something terrible by mistake to my log, I *need* the ability to get that heck the heck off of my hard drive, forever.Any technology which prevents me from deleting my data from my machine, is an absolute non-starter for me and should be for anyone.
(DIR) Post #AEQWAkxO9EdgBtUTA0 by lxo@gnusocial.net
2021-12-15T02:03:44Z
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IMHO, deleting stuff you've already published is no more than an illusionyou can truncate your log, restore it to an earlier state, but if the system won't restore the subsequent bits you'd already published from the network, it's no more than fooling youposting a follow-up withdrawing the earlier post is probably the most realistic achievable scenario, unless you're willing to break into and erase others' memories (be they biological or electronic)or you can abandon, disown and delete the old log, and start a new one. none of this can undo the accident. it's uncomfortable, no doubt, but misaligning expectations and reality is no more than a source of frustration and disappointment
(DIR) Post #AEQWqEj8MtTSOUbP1c by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T02:21:34Z
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@lxo I understand that I can't take back any data that's on other people's computers, and I don't want to have that ability anyway; it would just be used against my computers.But I need the ability to remove any data I wish to remove, from MY computer.I will not use any system that forces me, on MY computer, to store any data that I do not want to be there.This is non-negotiable.
(DIR) Post #AEQWqFA4kj1bk3Cv1E by lxo@gnusocial.net
2021-12-15T02:36:25Z
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sounds good to me (not that you need my approval or anything ;-)I'm glad you're not someone who conflates the two issuesSSB is probably not for you indeed: besides your own append-only log, you're expected to host and share logs and attachments of others you follow. that would probably feel uncomfortable for you.alas, that sort of burden-trading is a building block for a lot of community, decentralized technology that makes the utility of the whole greater than the sum of the parts. I wish there was some way you could be part of it, without clashing with this choice you've expressed. that's a challenge I often run into, and if you have any ideas on how to overcome it, I'd love to hear (or read ;-) them
(DIR) Post #AEQWqFb18YZl5boR0q by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T02:39:21Z
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@lxo I feel like, unfortunately, that it's SSB that's made the choice in this situation. The only choice left to me is to politely decline to participate because of the extreme danger of non-deleteable data.I otherwise like SSB's principles, but that one breaks the whole deal for me.Earthstar is a possible alternative that isn't append-only, but it still seems a bit heavyweight.When I do find a decentralised system I feel safe using, I will join at that point.
(DIR) Post #AEQWqG0Bcyi0LfaXFA by lxo@gnusocial.net
2021-12-15T03:43:27Z
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oh, right, SSB is definitely not for you, that much was clearmy question was not towards SSB specifically, but about what it would take, in a decent(ralized) P2P system in which parties hold data for each other, to avoid triggering your reasonable and legitimate objection. any kind of controls, settings, that would help you feel safe (if that's the right word) to participate? e.g. would it help if all the data was encrypted and you couldn't tell what it is or whose it is? or would you rather be able to know and choose, presumably after the fact, that you don't wish to hold a specific piece of data any longer?
(DIR) Post #AEQWqGMsGcrBU2Cebg by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T03:59:23Z
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@lxo "what it would take, in a decent(ralized) P2P system in which parties hold data for each other, to avoid triggering your reasonable and legitimate objection."Primarily I want the ability to manage *my own data physically on my machine or in my datastore*.That means:1. I need the ability to NOT automatically host data blocks from unknown strangers, which might well be child porn. This was an actual problem with Freenet back in the day.No, encryption does not make it better.
(DIR) Post #AEQWqGmOjjH0lC92OG by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T04:01:30Z
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@lxo 2. Assuming I have some kind of personal "index" document which I control, I want the ability to remove anything from the index that I have previously published.Ie, my index MUST NOT be an append-only log. There is no need for it to be, and it's hazard not a benefit for it to be.I don't so much care about data blocks hosted on other people's computers. I can't control those and don't want to.But my computer/index, I need control, because I'm responsible legally and morally for it.
(DIR) Post #AEQWqHF70yF4CFZy9A by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T04:04:02Z
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@lxo So a system I would like would be this:1. There are data blocks accessed by hash, which people can choose to host or not host on their computers. There is no automatic downloading of random data blocks onto my computer. I only download precisely what I request, nothing more.2. There are index blocks accessed by (public key + version-or-date) such that only the latest version is stored by default and if I request a pubkey, I get that latest version.
(DIR) Post #AEQWqHhpIDD7dJ0tu4 by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T04:07:06Z
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@lxo 3. There are presumably servers in the role of SSB's "pub", such that they can request indexes and sync up any data blocks named by hash in the index. How long they store the blocks for is I guess up to the server administrator. Maybe you pay a subscription for long-term hosting of blocks. Maybe a server has blacklists of known-bad blocks that they refuse to host.At any time I can purge any data block from my local system.
(DIR) Post #AEQWqICJSrb59rHFQG by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T04:09:45Z
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@lxo Obviously if I put a hash in my index and then perform a sync to someone else's computer, such as a pub, the data blocks named in the index are going to end up on that computer. I can't ask that computer to delete them and be sure that it will.But if someone is going to keep a data block around without me actively naming it and keeping it alive, they are going to have to do that themselves and pay for the storage for as long as they want that. I'm not going to do it for them.
(DIR) Post #AEQWqIg5g9PseDD1pw by lxo@gnusocial.net
2021-12-15T04:28:12Z
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thanks for sharing your perspectives, it's appreciated. I perceive it a quite challenging, but I'll look into integrating these concerns into the (so far vaporware) P2P redundant storage layer I propose for the software architecture at https://www.fsfla.org/blogs/lxo/draft/decent-computingI realize the SSB-given context may have influenced your perspective, so, in case you're interested enough to have a look at the proposal and adjust your position, and offer suggestions, I thank you in advance for it ;-)I also see potential for P2P off-site backups, and I hoped encryption and data fragmentation could relieve someone from responsibility over what one doesn't even know to be hosting for the other, but allowing someone to *know*, so as to possibly reject, what they might otherwise hosting for others poses quite a challenge. my first reaction is that such a system wouldn't be suitable for you either, and I don't see how to improve it so that it could be
(DIR) Post #AEQWqMKy4ctfzrMDT6 by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T04:16:55Z
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@lxo This requirement blows away any hope of a simplistic hash-to-IP-range kind of distributed hash table being the routing method. It think we just have to let that die; it's a very bad idea.Instead, I think something maybe like Named Data Networking might be the way, where we have a hierarchy of string spaces and routing somehow goes by prefixes in that string space. That way we're only sharing precisely what we choose to.The details of routing are no doubt very tricky.
(DIR) Post #AEQWqOG4vmArxH5L7o by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T04:20:57Z
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@lxo Like maybe it's not string spaces but pubkeys. Maybe as well as creating personal pubkeys, we allow people to create "routing group" pubkeys such that they join a routing group for some kind of geographical or thematic area, and the indexes/blocks posted to that pubkey show how to locate specific individual pubkeys. Subject to moderation by the entity who runs that routing group and can choose to blacklist bad actors.Just a wild guess, but that's maybe a rough kind of ballpark.
(DIR) Post #AEQWqv4WvjXpj0w5Cq by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T04:31:07Z
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@lxo "I hoped encryption and data fragmentation could relieve someone from responsibility over what one doesn't even know to be hosting for the other"Freenet, back in the day, held that belief. Some were okay with it.I was not okay with it. I took one glance at the public pages and saw that they were filled with child porn, or what appeared to be people advertising it. And it would be on my computer if I participated.And so I dropped Freenet and ran far, far away. And will not come back.
(DIR) Post #AEQWqwg8xNE4hxXdTM by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T04:33:33Z
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@lxo "allowing someone to *know*, so as to possibly reject, what they might otherwise hosting for others poses quite a challenge"Doing the right thing is not often easy. But we do the right thing because it is right.Forcing home users into becoming data mules hosting random data packages from random strangers, many of whom are outright criminals, on their home machines is not the right thing, and it ought to be fairly clearly apparent that it is not the right thing.
(DIR) Post #AEQWx5L3fjk9Itbg0G by lxo@gnusocial.net
2021-12-15T04:58:42Z
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the framing as "mules" does get the feeling across loud and clear :-) I get the concerns about hosting intolerable stuffhowever, I was here thinking "I'm glad my ISP doesn't block encrypted data I transfer through their wire, on the grounds that it might contain bits they can't see, but that they might prefer not to carry" it's a similar conundrum, and I'm pretty sure that allowing ISPs to decrypt everything so as to be able to curate what they're willing to transfer is not the right solutionrunning a Tor node (bridge, relay, exit, whatever) has made me think a lot about this. I assume there is weird shit flowing in there that I wouldn't want to touch with a 10ft pole, but helping those who live under censorship get information in and out, and helping maintain infrastructure for free communication also makes room for abuse. I rationalize it with presumption of innocence, and hope that the good makes up for the bad, but that's just me. I doubt there's a one-size-fits-all
(DIR) Post #AEQYp0cFXysuFRvO6a by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-15T12:04:51.536633Z
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@natecull @lxo I think you would like Aether then. Last time I checked, the developer expressed a desire to implement the ability for node operators to choose what and whom they host after an influx of Voat refugees.Also, I mentioned IPFS earlier. @clay has created a social media built on top of IPFS PubSub called IPSM. I don’t know what happened to the page.
(DIR) Post #AEQZBBtqH6xRcBjLvM by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T02:14:11Z
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@Hyolobrika "Btw, why is people's desire to acquire currency destroying the world? This is something I've never thought to ask until now"Yes, I imagined that you hadn't thought about that. If you had, you wouldn't be such an uncritical supporter of capitalism.The world is suffering a long-term ecological crisis, which is causing extinctions of species, caused by the global economic system (which is, since 1989, primarily capitalist) investing in things that generate short-term returns.
(DIR) Post #AEQZBCL8dcnAyqV9TE by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T02:16:01Z
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@Hyolobrika What's causing, for example, rain forests to be clear-felled, causing species extinctions, climate change, and massive ecological harm, just so that palm oil trees can be planted so that "the market" can make a few extra dollars?The desire for money is causing that.The market is a very poor judge of what's the best thing to do. A human with a conscience should not do what the market tells them makes the most money.
(DIR) Post #AEQZBCkJ82vQEuHFhY by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-15T12:08:51.664687Z
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@natecull What's your alternative to the market that still respects human liberty?Later in the thread you talk about paying for hosting. If you are okay with that I don't understand why you are not okay with the existence of currency.All I'm suggesting is to be able to pay for things over the internet without gatekeepers. I wasn't trying to increase the amount of capitalism in the world.
(DIR) Post #AEQZFmIStROxenR1jU by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T02:12:23Z
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@Hyolobrika The universe doesn't especially care about intent, it cares about the objective results of our actions.I will grant you that you probably don't believe what I've told you about capital's tendency to concentrate. So you probably think that by promoting cryptocurrency you *aren't* making a few people rich.All I can suggest is that you, well, do your research and watch what's happening. Also perhaps read up on the 1920s stock market and see if you can spot any similarities.
(DIR) Post #AEQZFmhdNrXCurD7xo by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-15T12:09:41.553519Z
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@natecull The universe isn't conscious. We are.Morality can and *should* be concerned with intent IMHO.
(DIR) Post #AEQaHujYazXgMCgny4 by thatguyoverthere@charlestown.social
2021-12-15T12:21:17.036245Z
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@natecull @Hyolobrika what's the fed? The rich minting their own money only we can't play at all.
(DIR) Post #AEQautA0NaF8lre2cK by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T01:35:29Z
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@Hyolobrika "Is that better or worse than handing a money-printing machine to the *government*"1) It's certainly not better, and has given up right from the start on even *aspiring* to be better.2) Since 1933, the financial industry at least has been somewhat regulated. The Cryptocurrency scene deliberately wants to go back to the 1920s model of complete unregulation. This created the 1929 stock market crash. It will do precisely the same for Cryptocurrency, except on a much larger scale.
(DIR) Post #AEQautdmas3wGDZp20 by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T01:38:55Z
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@Hyolobrika Basically, a government in a democratic country is moderated by elections.Pure unregulated capitalism does not have that moderation mechanism.The potential for pure unregulated capitalism, if left to its own devices, to create atrocities on a planetwide scale is unlimited. Inequality will go straight vertical.To make democracy more democratic, political donations and election finance should be cleaned up. That means *more* regulation, not less. Strict budgets on fundraising.
(DIR) Post #AEQauu3J3yTlXNWCoa by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-15T12:28:17.798925Z
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@natecull When it comes to wealth, I think that the wellbeing of the poorest is more important than the difference between the poor and the rich.I also care about inequalities of power more than inequalities of wealth.Then again you could rightly say that the one leads to the other.That's true, but I don't know of any way of alleviating inequality of wealth without creating a manager class that controls wealth distribution.I should probably read more about non-state socialism etc. Do you have any pointers?
(DIR) Post #AEQb9rYCe9067e6TAm by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-15T12:31:01.614699Z
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@natecull I've been regulated by governmental organisations far too much in my life. Sorry, but the idea that we need *more* regulation ain't gonna fly with me.
(DIR) Post #AERT16m64MV4G1sPiK by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T22:20:51Z
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@Hyolobrika "The universe isn't conscious. We are. Morality can and *should* be concerned with intent IMHO."True, that's a good point.But at some point, wilfully refusing to see the predictable results of one's actions counts as intent, doesn't it? "Reckless disregard" I think is the legal term for that, or one of those.I see what I think is a lot of reckless disregard for the social impact of capitalism (which has now been well documented for centuries) in Libertarian circles.
(DIR) Post #AERT17ESMvBXfz93uy by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-15T22:34:29.974991Z
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@natecull I'm not "willfully refusing" anything. If you have a point, back it up or get out.
(DIR) Post #AERTfgqhMj8zitNcC8 by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T22:33:04Z
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@Hyolobrika "Later in the thread you talk about paying for hosting. If you are okay with that I don't understand why you are not okay with the existence of currency."I'm okay with the existence of currency *since it already exists offline* and a number in a computer can just reflect that.I'm not okay with *deliberately destroying/consuming inherently valuable computing resources to create online scarcity*, which is what cryptocurrencies do.I'd be happy with, say, a system of signed IOUs.
(DIR) Post #AERTfhERwQ8uuYUaDQ by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-15T22:41:50.831068Z
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@natecull>I'm not okay with deliberately destroying ... which is what cryptocurrencies doNow we are going around in circles. I already told you about catalytic proof of storage. What's your response?>I'd be okay with a system of signed IOUsAre you serious?Ok, great idea. You can take my IOUs as valuable and I can sign as much as I want. Money printer go brrrrr!
(DIR) Post #AERU8VtJBa2I8TLQrQ by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-15T22:47:03.791076Z
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@natecull (I feel like I'm being a bit too mean to you with those last two posts, but then again you did start off this thread with a ridiculous strawman about crypto people being "literal fascists" and recently had a go at me for something I didn't actually intend to do so...)
(DIR) Post #AERUNCQ3rawQ5ZfRFg by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T22:36:56Z
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@Hyolobrika "I should probably read more about non-state socialism etc. Do you have any pointers?"There was a whole vast socialist movement that existed even before Marx. The 1800s were an interesting time. Some of it was religious groups, some of it was "fraternities" (Freemasonry, etc)... which I guess filled the role of unions and life-insurance agencies as well as being theatrical, racist and a bit ominous because of all the secrecy.But even the "State" is a very modern concept...
(DIR) Post #AERUNExSQOqLxjJ8aG by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T22:44:21Z
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@Hyolobrika ... since before the idea of "States" there were just generals, feudal lords, kings and emperors.If either left-anarchists or right-anarchists succeed in "Smashing the State", they'll also smash things like fire departments, libraries, schools, and food safety inspectors. And go back to the old idea of "a guy with a gun shooting anyone who steps on his land". And the guys with the biggest guns own all the land.That's not a step forwards for human freedom, in my opinion.
(DIR) Post #AERV1YaWrLxWQZo7vs by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T22:48:49Z
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@Hyolobrika The cryptocurrency scene being heavily stacked with *literal* neofascists is not a strawman.Have you really not stumbled on any of them? Then I would submit that you are not seeing what's right in front of them.*You* might not intend for your actions in supporting cryptocurrency to increase inequality in the world.But it's what the system does.You can choose to see that, or choose not to.
(DIR) Post #AERV1Z4f3K3tw1uBto by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-15T22:57:00.889750Z
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@natecull Is cjd@mastodon.social a neofascist? How about feld@bikeshed.party? How about theblockchainsocialist@social.coop? Where are the neofascists in the cryptocurrency space?And even if there are, what difference does that make? Adolf Hitler spoke German. He was in the "Germanophone space". Does that make German a "Nazi language"? Is Pleroma "Nazi software" just because poa.st et al exist (I wouldn't be surprised if you believe this one)?
(DIR) Post #AERV1aVdiVEiNzXFaa by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T22:49:53Z
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@Hyolobrika I mean it's been out there for a while if you'd been paying attention.https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/24/bitcoin-currency-far-right-neo-nazis-cryptocurrencies
(DIR) Post #AERV1cK0yh7s0W6zkO by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T22:51:01Z
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@Hyolobrika https://apnews.com/article/cryptocurrency-coronavirus-pandemic-technology-business-europe-f7f754fc2c68b0eb0d712239323f26c3Are you looking, or are you deliberately closing your eyes?
(DIR) Post #AERVG7dxK0FNChM78q by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-15T22:59:39.232164Z
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@natecull Andrew Anglin also breathes air.Don't breathe air, it's evil.
(DIR) Post #AERVQq354wsjouDYUS by thatguyoverthere@charlestown.social
2021-12-15T23:01:35.078697Z
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@natecull @Hyolobrika the thing is the problems you have mentioned as being a result of capitalism are actually the result of a specific system not the idea of free trade as such. The global banking system driven largely by the printing of dollars by the Fed which is centrally managed and specifically designed to generate debt. we are then responsible for that debt without any chance to say neigh.Crypto decentralizes control of the currency and limits the quantity so that we can use it to represent real value. When the fed prints new money today you have less value stored in the money you own.A shared symbol for stored value that is consistent is important. I don't trust governments or banking cartels with this responsibility. Do you?
(DIR) Post #AERVRV6iQL9PA3EXLc by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-15T23:01:42.333767Z
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@natecull The guardian is not a source of truth. Especially the opinion pieces: https://archive.md/rVRnz
(DIR) Post #AERVoMnFV8882J20sC by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-15T23:05:50.533329Z
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@natecull Thats why I favour a middle path. Libertarianism, rather than authoritarianism or anarchism. I was half-joking with my previous statement about anarchy.
(DIR) Post #AERWv3bTLaKiV7HFJY by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T23:14:19Z
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@thatguyoverthere @Hyolobrika "Crypto decentralizes control of the currency"It does not.It hands control of the currency *directly* to the rich.As opposed to somewhat tempering the control of currency by filtering it through an independent agency appointed by a democratically-elected government.Remember what happened in the 1920s, before there were financial regulations?That's what's happening with cryptocurrency. It will end the same way.
(DIR) Post #AERWv40zogkXmHDd68 by thatguyoverthere@charlestown.social
2021-12-15T23:18:14.190438Z
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@natecull @Hyolobrika > As opposed to somewhat tempering the control of currency by filtering it through an independent agency appointed by a democratically-elected government.who the fed? 🤣 The fed was created in 1913 and within a little over a decade we headed into the Great Depression. Nearly 40% of all currency currently in circulation was created during the pandemic
(DIR) Post #AERXnhTTK91XnPahDU by petit@social.ufeff.club
2021-12-15T23:28:08.029345Z
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@natecull @thatguyoverthere @Hyolobrika Transferring power from the state to private interests decentralizes power. Transferring power from private interests to the state *also* decentralizes power. The public sector and the private sector can both refer to "the people".We've gone through about a century of fiat regulatory capture and law enforcement abuse. People are willing to give private currency control a try again.
(DIR) Post #AERYECpbMVy2Zpa4Jc by petit@social.ufeff.club
2021-12-15T23:32:55.324644Z
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@natecull @Hyolobrika The internet treats censorship as a fault and reroutes around it. Patreon, GoFundMe, PayPal, Apple Pay and Google Pay tried to censor. People routed around. This is why the fediverse is filled with annoying tankies and goosesteppers.
(DIR) Post #AERcnSIWFYXOUtAcy0 by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T23:08:53Z
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@Hyolobrika Yep, you certainly can choose to keep denying.But I'm telling you this so that as the Andrew Anglins on your side of the political aisle (Libertarianism is not the centre) gain more wealth and power because of the economic system you support, you have a chance to notice and set up some boundaries.Otherwise you risk sleepwalking all the way into your 1933.
(DIR) Post #AERcnSgcnvotheRsXY by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-16T00:24:06.457333Z
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@natecull I should have said 'in-between' rather than 'middle'.Why are fascists more likely to become wealthy and powerful in a free market system than anyone else? This is the bit that doesn't make sense to me.
(DIR) Post #AERisEz5m8hANakTVQ by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-16T00:55:54Z
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@Hyolobrika "Why are fascists more likely to become wealthy and powerful in a free market system than anyone else?"1) Because they're more ruthless, more willing to lie and commit atrocities to get and hold onto power. Ruthlessness, lack of empathy, a celebration of unfairness, an unwillingness to submit to laws created by "weaker" (ie: more empathetic) people: that's the core of the Fascist ethos.2) Because since 1947, the people pushing "free markets" worked with former Literal Fascists.
(DIR) Post #AERisFZFbhcQBjfLrk by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-16T01:00:00Z
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@Hyolobrika ie, the "former" Fascists from Italy and Germany became a core part of the US-led anti-Communist alliance (see eg: the Gehlen Org), and the hardest of the hard core "free market" thinkers were so virulently opposed to not just Communism but every shade of Socialism that they found much common cause with these Actual Historically Existing Fascists.So they're more willing to do illegal things to win, and they're already deeply embedded on the right wing of US politics / economics.
(DIR) Post #AERisG0BzXAZXIGrrM by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-16T01:10:04Z
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@Hyolobrika If I thought that unrestrained "free markets" naturally rewarded empathy and honesty and hard work and service to others rather than ruthlessness and fraud, I'd be in favour of them.But I think history has shown us that they don't.The Libertarian hope is that all you need is "stable money" and the market just sorts everything automatically.Sadly I think that's the opposite of what happens. Markets become a war; there's a winner and many losers; the winner takes rent forever.
(DIR) Post #AERisGPMTxIonM2y5g by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-16T01:12:09Z
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@Hyolobrika If you could have some kind of market-like mechanism that didn't allow a winner to take control of the assets of others and thereby compound their wealth and power at an accelerating rate, leading to the bankruptcy of the many and godlike power for the few.... that would help.But the only mechanism I know that balances capital's natural tendency to concentrate, is taxation.
(DIR) Post #AERisGwgU3xQShda1w by petit@social.ufeff.club
2021-12-16T01:32:10.818565Z
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@natecull @Hyolobrika But then you're just replacing a single individual with the state, which isn't even human.
(DIR) Post #AERisI8Q3uwG9O8Sxc by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-16T01:15:56Z
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@Hyolobrika I mean, do you really think a billionaire is literally a billion times better of a human being than a person who has one dollar to their name?When their DNA is virtually identical?If markets deliver this outcome, then something's wrong in how markets judge and reward human worth.
(DIR) Post #AERisJphkT9nPvOY4G by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-16T01:19:16Z
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@Hyolobrika If the wealth differential between, CEOs / investors and workers was, say, only a hundred times, I probably wouldn't say that capitalism had failed.But at a billion times and rising? Yeah, no. That's a broken machine delivering a broken product. The wealth gap, and the recreation of an aristocratic class, started really accelerating in the 1980s as regulation got dismantled, so smashing up what little regulation remains seems like it will just make full feudalism return faster.
(DIR) Post #AERoF47OqBIR6uKyoK by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-16T01:34:27Z
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@petit @Hyolobrika The "state" is made of humans. It is as human as any other group of humans, which is to say, completely human.How kind or empathetic that group of humans is, depends on the rules they have chosen to live by.If the rules they have chosen to live by includes giving each other equal votes, then that seems more kind and empathetic to me than letting the richest ones among them rule the poorest.
(DIR) Post #AERoF4WZKbQgMy752e by petit@social.ufeff.club
2021-12-16T02:32:19.344042Z
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@natecull @Hyolobrika The state and market are both made of humans. History has shown neither are as empathetic as the humans they're comprised of.Market: "Let's just like let the richest people keep accumulating wealth! :)"State: "Let's just like let the most powerful institution keep accumulating power :)"
(DIR) Post #AESiFdGTlISPY3QnSK by samuraikid@freeatlantis.com
2021-12-16T02:48:45Z
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@natecull @Hyolobrika paper money = privacy simple has that
(DIR) Post #AESjIo2MGdFlmSu4ye by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-15T09:03:41Z
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@lxo "I'm glad my ISP doesn't block encrypted data I transfer through their wire, on the grounds that it might contain bits they can't see, but that they might prefer not to carry"So am I. But I think the "common carrier" status gets them out of a lot of trouble; providing wiretaps for law enforcement on demand gets them out of the rest."running a Tor node (bridge, relay, exit, whatever) has made me think a lot about this"Ah. Right. So yes, I am not comfortable running a Tor node either.
(DIR) Post #AESjIoW8Tv4ZGoprOK by lxo@gnusocial.net
2021-12-16T00:13:08Z
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erhm, I thought I understood your stance as a moral one, rather than a liability-averting one, but your response about "common carrier" status seems to point the opposite direction. surely being labeled, or regarding oneself as a common carrier, vs a common mule, doesn't address any of the moral issues that you appeared to be more concerned about. I guess it's a combination of both moral and legal, after all?
(DIR) Post #AESjIovIyLCoWsbxce by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-16T00:49:59Z
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@lxo It's both.It's the user's device. It must be the users' choice as to what data goes on it.*Even if* you were 100% certain in your own mind that the high moral good of helping activists... and/or spies ... evade police in bad foreign countries outweighs the harm of actively enabling cyberattacks and the worst kind of crimes, it's *still not morally right* for a system designer to *force* illegal material onto a user who could go to prison for having that material on their device.
(DIR) Post #AESk4y7E6BNOwG987s by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-16T13:20:24.837735Z
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@natecull Do you mean how companies acquire each other? I've heard it said that corporations only exist and become big and powerful because the state recognises their existence and gives them or the humans behind them special privileges, like limited liability from failure. If that's true then the solution to megacorps would be to simply stop the state from getting involved.
(DIR) Post #AESkMfrahNHXXjH9CC by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-16T13:23:37.017912Z
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@natecull And ancoms worked with MLs during the Spanish civil war (and then got backstabbed). 'Left-wing' and 'right-wing' are broad terms. They encompass both libertarian, authoritarian and anarchist ideologies.
(DIR) Post #AESkcWRLVBMywzYZGK by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-16T13:26:29.001609Z
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@natecull By those same reasons, they would be more likely to gain power anywhere, including in the state. Do you think they are capable of amassing wealth to gain power in a market but incapable of working their way up through the ranks of power in a government?
(DIR) Post #AESlfWgb8y7qXJgeXY by thatguyoverthere@charlestown.social
2021-12-16T13:38:13.979136Z
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@natecull @Hyolobrika fascism and a free market are incompatible. Fascism is public private partnership. The state chooses who to partner with, I.e who succeeds. Basically what we have today. This is not a free market. In a free market the government would not be subsidizing businesses which props up large organizations that might otherwise fail and leave room for new innovative people to fill the space.
(DIR) Post #AESli8PVr8iU7EwIOu by lxo@gnusocial.net
2021-12-16T01:20:25Z
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> It must be the users' choice as to what data goes on it.right, but that doesn't seem to apply to our ISPs, not because they must be allowed to chose what data goes through their wires, but because they have common carrier status, which has nothing whatsoever to do with any moral objections they might have.so if we our own computers play the role of routers, caches, or otherwise storage for others, and if we had similar immunity to that given to common carriers, would that be enough to alleviate your concerns about hosting or routing data for others?I expect that, if the data is encrypted so that you can't possibly have a clue as to what it is, it would be pretty hard to hold you criminally liable for it. nearly all criminal law requires intent, which would be challenging to establish if neither you nor anyone else can tell what's in there. it's like carrying a bunch of harmless subatomic particles, that only a machine someone else has can rearrange into (il?)legal matter
(DIR) Post #AESli8u01n6RdnCdv6 by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-16T01:23:51Z
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@lxo "would that be enough to alleviate your concerns about hosting or routing data for others?"No. It wouldn't, for reasons I've already explained.I remember this "but it's encrypted so you're not REALLY to blame for all the extremely illegal material that you know is on your machine but can say in court that you don't KNOW that you know" argument from Freenet.It did not convince me. It was obvious that I would be materially supporting something utterly repugnant to me.
(DIR) Post #AESli9NQGOdf72y8mW by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-16T01:25:11Z
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@lxo I mean how many times do I have to politely say "sorry, but no, I do not want you to put even encrypted child porn on my machine" before I need to say that in less polite terms?
(DIR) Post #AESli9mEm8UKM0ZxSa by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-16T01:29:21Z
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@lxo If I was *selling* access to the network to others, that might be different. There would be a moral argument that I'm providing a necessary service and that without that service I am depriving people of an essential right.But on my own machine? Where I can choose to participate in a community that seems to skew extremely crime-heavy, or not? No thank you, goodbye, please take your Uber/AirBnB For Crimes somewhere else. I don't need to participate in this.
(DIR) Post #AESliAAhJC3PZs1UaO by lxo@gnusocial.net
2021-12-16T03:10:13Z
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> how many timessorry if I wasn't loud and clear myself, but I've got that point already. what I haven't quite got is the exception:> If I was *selling* access to the network to others, that might be differentI don't see why being paid would make it acceptable to host or route child porn, or to be a drug mule for that matter.what makes it hard for me to grasp it is that, in some of the services we're talking about, people are not paid to offer them, while in others, people get similar service in return, which may count as payback, but none of this seems to matter. while in other cases, as you mentioned, selling them seems to be a key element in making it acceptable. I'm sure that makes sense to you, and I look forward to grasping that reasoning myself, and I hope you're still willing to explore and expose it further. regardless, I thank you for your help so far
(DIR) Post #AESliAY5uClkkQyB3Q by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-16T03:13:24Z
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@lxo "I don't see why being paid would make it acceptable to host or route child porn, or to be a drug mule for that matter."It wouldn't.Unless, the service you were being paid for had by far a clear majority of legitimate, lawful use cases, and the criminal use cases were a tiny minority.That's the situation I think applies to telcos and did not apply to Mega. Perhaps each person has to make that judgement for themselves. For me what I saw was criminal use cases in the clear majority.
(DIR) Post #AESliAwYRGKpyIPiBE by lxo@gnusocial.net
2021-12-16T03:49:07Z
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some analysis of consequence of drawing this line as I guessed (correctly or not):criminals will strive to hide their activities, and thus they will naturally seek privacy-respecting communication services for these activitiesnoncriminals, in turn, should they decide whether or not to participate using this line, will see the criminals there, that are likely to be early adopters, and steer themselves away from privacy-respecting therefore criminal-infested services, and stick to services that do NOT respect privacymeanwhile, noncriminals that use a different line, such as the *potential* for lawful uses of privacy-respecting services, might join, and turn the services into ones where the majority of uses are lawful, enabling even people who draw the line as I guessed doso I guess this line wouldn't prevent its adopters from joining, after all, it just makes them later adopters of privacy-respecting services, provided the services succeed at attracting many lawful adopters first
(DIR) Post #AESliC6A91cBYNutnM by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-16T03:15:54Z
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@lxo For background: When I first started looking at Freenet, it was the mid 2000s, the early George W Bush years, and I was very concerned about the potential for the War on Terror to spin rapidly into a neofascist or at least hard-core authoritarian government. So defying *that* government by setting up alternate routing servers felt like the right thing to do.But as soon as I saw the Freenet public index pages, I eeked hard and bailed. The "rebels" looked objectively worse than GWB.
(DIR) Post #AESliE8iYUqZst7y3U by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-16T01:30:45Z
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@lxo But even for selling a service that skews crime-heavy:See Kim Dotcom and Mega.I don't think he was the good guy in that court case.
(DIR) Post #AESmUZ6ttF9sp8KKoK by natecull@mastodon.social
2021-12-16T02:34:17Z
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@petit @Hyolobrika You're overlooking voting in this analysis, which is quite a large thing to overlook.Elections are like if you had markets, but no participant in the market could buy out all the others and destroy them.I think we should have many more elections, and hold them about many more things, and much more often.This would be a much better use of computer networks than recreating the economic behaviour of gold.
(DIR) Post #AESmUZeDtLoUUTuwka by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-16T13:47:25.720689Z
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@natecull @petit So, are you saying you want some sort of democratically governed command economy?
(DIR) Post #AESnD4OKwrSIaAhiXA by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-12-16T13:55:29.713953Z
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@thatguyoverthere your first point is a good one, but I have a feeling @natecull has blocked or muted you
(DIR) Post #AESnMSyGvo0xQ9zdLc by thatguyoverthere@charlestown.social
2021-12-16T13:57:11.513151Z
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@Hyolobrika @natecull yeah he didn't like my calling out his fallacy yesterday. Its a shame.. Admittedly I didn't hold back. The whole racism card really gets on my nerves and degrades conversations faster than anything else imo