Post ADjFIvTdzBhXsAMftQ by codeforchaos@cybre.space
(DIR) More posts by codeforchaos@cybre.space
(DIR) Post #ADiyTqJdokK7pVJ1DU by Sandra@idiomdrottning.org
2021-11-23T17:41:36.772115Z
2 likes, 2 repeats
"They say disk space is cheap. This is not true, not for the root devices of modern computers. Built-in storage has in fact been shrinking." ♥https://ludocode.com/blog/flatpak-is-not-the-future
(DIR) Post #ADiyyathC1fwzGpj28 by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2021-11-24T11:29:51Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Sandra I don't agree with the author that branded apps distributed directly from developers to users, bypassing the distros, is what we need. But if someone wants that anyway, the what the author proposes would indeed be better than Flatpak et al.
(DIR) Post #ADiz6vqjB3UgHmQ9gW by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2021-11-24T11:32:06Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Sandra Also, if I were to choose between having a stable ABI and some proprietary apps, vs having ABI in constant flux, where updates break things, and I can't fork apps anyway because updating a fork to newer versions of deoendencies is too much work, then I'll take the former.
(DIR) Post #ADj0ejEUgyM2xKDUlk by Sandra@idiomdrottning.org
2021-11-24T11:46:28.922720Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wolf480pl I want distros too ♥Debian. I wish it was easier to make debs, though.
(DIR) Post #ADj0ejlSiOj4bZdp9k by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2021-11-24T11:48:44Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Sandra Did you know about dpkg -b?But yeah, I too wish debhelper wasn't the mess it is.
(DIR) Post #ADj2So82rZAcZddxyq by csepp@merveilles.town
2021-11-23T22:05:24Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Sandra "There is one glaring exception to my claims regarding Linux library stability. That exception is GTK. #GTK famously breaks their libraries with reckless abandon."This is actually bad even for libre systems. Eg.: it means the library doesn't support grafting on Guix, so if you want to push a security fix quickly (or use a customized version on your own system) then you have to recompile every dependent package.
(DIR) Post #ADj2Sog4p2OOHBZ91c by ebassi@mastodon.social
2021-11-24T00:08:04Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@csepp @Sandra That article is entirely FUD, and the bit about GTK is grotesquely wrong. I contacted the author who *at least* fixed the paragraph about the versioning and LTS policy that has been in place for the past 5 years and that he hadn't bothered to read. He kept the entire section the same, even if the whole thing is contradicted by the official GTK team policy.
(DIR) Post #ADj2TpKzqzxoc3BhPk by csepp@merveilles.town
2021-11-24T00:17:55Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@ebassi @Sandra Heck. Supporting source for others who were wondering:https://blog.gtk.org/2016/09/01/versioning-and-long-term-stability-promise-in-gtk/
(DIR) Post #ADj2VmaR3LD2eyLEmG by Sandra@idiomdrottning.org
2021-11-24T07:14:24.608982Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ebassiThe paragraph you are arguing against (and I agree with your arguments wrt that paragraph) is there as a caveat against the rest of the article. Paraphrased: "Flatpak is bad, but, one argument for it is the flux of GTK's ABI."To the extent that GTK supports its LTS releases, the case laid forth in the rest of the article is stronger.@csepp
(DIR) Post #ADj2Vn39KaB661mAXA by ebassi@mastodon.social
2021-11-24T12:07:55Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@Sandra @csepp No, the article is full of weird non-sequiturs or outright fabrications, like the fact that flatpak, which deduplicates files on disk, consumes "more space". It's based on the mistaken assumption that you can create a stable platform in a volunteer-based, decentralised environment that is predicated on the fact that people can (and will) fork projects, without a top-down decision making chain
(DIR) Post #ADj2VojN55XtJGXOz2 by ebassi@mastodon.social
2021-11-24T12:09:48Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Sandra @csepp Flatpak is necessary because the FLOSS ecosystem is not like Windows. Even Windows has been encouraging app developers to ship their dependencies for 30 years
(DIR) Post #ADjFG5H96D7zORACye by Sandra@idiomdrottning.org
2021-11-24T13:01:54.334904Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ebassi @csepp Here is how the deduplication works: https://docs.flatpak.org/en/latest/under-the-hood.htmlPretty nifty; posted that on Lobste.rs too.
(DIR) Post #ADjFG5kDM8NcqalQHo by ebassi@mastodon.social
2021-11-24T13:02:58Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Sandra @csepp A useful blog post to get some numbers: https://blogs.gnome.org/wjjt/2021/11/24/on-flatpak-disk-usage-and-deduplication/
(DIR) Post #ADjFIvTdzBhXsAMftQ by codeforchaos@cybre.space
2021-11-24T13:50:46Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ebassi @Sandra @csepp but doesn't the author in OP have a point, though, regarding disk space bloat. The counter-argumenter makes the point that he only has ~9 GB of runtime on his machine, but these only span about 4 years worth of binary updates. The original thesis is that *in the future* it would amount to tens of GBs, and taking into account the reference timeframe of 25 years (the win32 argument) and the admitted deduplication rate of about 40% (low sample rate though, also bound to be varying a lot), it doesn't seem too far off the mark
(DIR) Post #ADjFIvw0HkO1I7dK64 by ebassi@mastodon.social
2021-11-24T13:53:40Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@codeforchaos @Sandra @csepp In general, deduplication is highly affected by reproducibility in builds; if components stay the same across both applications *and* run times, then the efficiency goes up in the face of new releases.The point, though, is still the same: you either do this, or you have to expect that every project is going to be built and shipped by your downstream, which has well known scalability issues
(DIR) Post #ADjFIwaPrUiFJSXb5U by ebassi@mastodon.social
2021-11-24T13:55:13Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@codeforchaos @Sandra @csepp The FLOSS world does not, and cannot really have a centralised single place where to package all software; the closest thing you get are Flatpak run times, or Steam bundling Ubuntu 12.04 for years in order to have games run without rebuilding them from scratch everywhere
(DIR) Post #ADjFIyQuzmIt2a72Yq by ebassi@mastodon.social
2021-11-24T13:57:12Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@codeforchaos @Sandra @csepp I wrote a thing a few years ago: https://www.bassi.io/articles/2017/08/10/dev-v-ops/In short: Linux distributions work like sysadmins deploying OS and C/C++ apps to users. Nothing really works like that any more.
(DIR) Post #ADjJEvMyqLAECJaxnc by purple@nya.social
2021-11-24T15:17:40.566Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ebassi@mastodon.social @codeforchaos@cybre.space @Sandra@idiomdrottning.org @csepp@merveilles.town your site is impossible for me to read due to its low contrast and light font face.