Post ADcCyltdagJtw3WPQW by handle@sunbeam.city
(DIR) More posts by handle@sunbeam.city
(DIR) Post #ADOv3v2CebxmIPOOu0 by tindall@cybre.space
2021-11-14T18:55:04Z
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actually, i'd love to hear about this. folks who used "web 1.0" forums, based on stuff like phpBB, extensively, and now use Mastodon, Twitter, and the like:what does microblogging give you that forums didn't?
(DIR) Post #ADOv3vcMUAt26YJHGK by tindall@cybre.space
2021-11-14T19:00:27Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
my personal answer is that (mastodon especially) lets me more easily define a circle of friends who can see certain posts, and update them about my life - but even that's a hack on top of multiple accounts!i think I really just want g+. :(
(DIR) Post #ADOv3wB6P0fxqIZ1Pc by tindall@cybre.space
2021-11-14T19:07:41Z
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part of what I'm hearing is that people want to be able to consume forum-like communities in a centralized place with consistent markup for posting.sounds like a well-defined C2S "forum protocol" would help a lot...
(DIR) Post #ADOv3wjULABJYweU0e by msh@coales.co
2021-11-14T19:12:29Z
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@tindall I don't see why not ActiivityPub could be that protocol with agreed upon conventions on how to implement forums with it?I'd really like to see the fediverse become (even less) microblogging-focused basically
(DIR) Post #ADOvkbP3WERxrWR0sa by piggo@piggo.space
2021-11-14T19:20:14.744241Z
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@msh @tindall literally just install phpbb, the wheel is already invented. Maybe it could look less ugly and use nicer smileys but that's it
(DIR) Post #ADOw6DHbsShNQTFzJQ by tindall@cybre.space
2021-11-14T19:21:30Z
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@piggo i suggest you read the thread you're replying to for the reasons people aren't just doing that.
(DIR) Post #ADOw6DoDvCmp3cW29A by piggo@piggo.space
2021-11-14T19:24:06.610057Z
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@tindall yeah sorry it didn't load.Google+ circles is everyone's dream, isn't it...
(DIR) Post #ADPEvgbWQ6L2J8GS80 by rysiek@mastodon.technology
2021-11-14T22:53:43Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@tindall what microblogging on fedi gives me vs. old phpBB forums?Audience, I guess.phpBB forums were necessarily limited to a specific community.Fedi is way bigger and broader than this. And I love it.
(DIR) Post #ADUSQGimGgSGSPfzoe by zladuric@mastodon.technology
2021-11-15T01:44:18Z
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@tindall g+ was awesome idea, to bad they missed the execution, that could have broken down the Facebook cesspit. On topic, just a few toots above was a mention of Usenet. What I like about fediverse is I think partially there, you can relatively narrowly target your interests, but actually interact with people and not just consume content.
(DIR) Post #ADUSQHIw6FNWGYasAy by ivan@vucica.net
2021-11-17T11:19:53.219197Z
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@zladuric What started to horrify me about Fediverse is how my posts get replicated very widely and aggressively to hosts maintained by unknown parties, without certainty I can delete them — especially years down the line. This persistence — seemingly even stronger than what’s on centralized platforms — made me reduce my use quite a bit.I like selfhosting a lot, but uncontrolled replication from my self-hosted system means I’m not really selfhosting my fedi-posts.I liked G+ a lot.@tindall
(DIR) Post #ADUTTSEO1zpYyeXncG by ivan@vucica.net
2021-11-17T11:31:40.758450Z
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@tindall Microblogging lets me shout into a void, at least until it turns out that the void is not so empty. Forums were much more structured for me. I was too late for the Usenet party.But, has it turned out to be of any real use? Not really.I did not find a circle of friends who continues using any social network in a productive way, so my social life went back to ephemeral chats. I dropped forums about 10 years ago, FB about 8-9 years ago, sh&tpost mailing lists about 5-6 years ago, G+ about 1-2yr before its demise.For me, Twitter turned into shouting into the void about 5 years ago, and fedi turned out to be both chaos filled with posts I get irritated with, and devoid of nearly all of my contacts. Discussions on fedi are overly public and (as mentioned elsewhere) creepily over-replicated, meaning most of the time I’ll keep my mouth shut rather than participate. In 2021 sadly I wouldn’t adopt Usenet for the same reason.An option is to post anonymously, but I’m too old for that. I also realized anonymous accounts I have tend to turn into pseudonyms eventually, negating any benefits of being anonymous.So, I don’t know. What I think I’d like is G+ that my friends actually adopt and have some reason to look into our particular “community” / “group” / “circle”, like a group chat we use on Telegram. Mailing lists are fun too.@zladuric
(DIR) Post #ADUuhBPO4UIDcTSbnU by humanetech@mastodon.social
2021-11-17T16:32:47Z
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@msh @tindall The thing is that every type of application has its own use cases where it shines. Microblog vs. Forum idem.I just posted how an interesting discussion forks out in many parallel branches (in my case 30+) and becomes unmanageable (btw, here's the thread hierarchy: https://mathstodon.xyz/@ColinTheMathmo/107292124580473329 )And forums serve better as archives too, whereas on fedi microblogging.. everything sinks into history really quick and becomes very hard to find afterwards.
(DIR) Post #ADUx3JdqLD9LQvu5Am by galaxis@mastodon.infra.de
2021-11-14T23:15:53Z
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@tindall Microblogging gives me a space to drop thoughts without much care for form or structure. It's convenient and mostly entertaining for consumption, but I don't really like it. It's fire-and-forget outbound, and inbound is a disconnected random stream.Most forums I used were small communities built around a topic, moderately active. It was hard to stay when you lost connection to the main topic.Funny you mention G+ - for all its failures, it was a good place between forums and blogs.
(DIR) Post #ADUx3K6CdlpoqtAjNQ by humanetech@mastodon.social
2021-11-17T17:01:55Z
5 likes, 3 repeats
@galaxis @tindall I frequently encounter that all interesting discussion on #mastodon really needs a forum. Below is the hierarchy of a recent discussion I had, and it has more than 30 parallel branches. Manage that. Plus in a week time it is all forgotten history.
(DIR) Post #ADUxco5D9WF7ytd0Ge by freemo@qoto.org
2021-11-17T17:09:25Z
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@humanetech incidentally this sort of a map at the top level of a post would actually be a great way to navigate it. Hover to see a preview, highlight whatever node you are reading at the time as you click through it.@galaxis @tindall
(DIR) Post #ADUxfibhy5BrroDUuW by lain@lain.com
2021-11-17T17:10:02.149246Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@humanetech @galaxis @tindall collapse all the 'threads' that happen because of the 500 char limit and it's not that bad anymore
(DIR) Post #ADUxqHRPJN8knXR1I8 by humanetech@mastodon.social
2021-11-17T17:11:30Z
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@freemo @galaxis @tindall That is a good idea! The map is credit @ColinTheMathmo who created the @Chartodon bot service.cc @weex something for #ecko?
(DIR) Post #ADUy2J5uzRD9Ov7OMq by Hyolobrika@fedi.club
2021-11-17T17:14:08.260560Z
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@humanetech @galaxis @tindall there is a Pleroma frontend called Fedi-FE that uses a tree view. not to mention the dedicated ActivityPub Reddit-likes such as lotide and Lemmy
(DIR) Post #ADUy6UsR7mul6OoIS0 by humanetech@mastodon.social
2021-11-17T17:14:26Z
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@lain @tindall @galaxis Yes indeed. That would help a lot in this case. But it also happens often that as one is typing the 2nd toot in a series that someone else reacts and creats a fork in between.
(DIR) Post #ADUyBYojtyWwlrUmHY by ademan@thebag.social
2021-11-17T17:15:47.011626Z
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@lain @tindall @galaxis @humanetech oh… geeze… are they color coded by the author? Yeah there’s like 5 in a row from one of the authors…
(DIR) Post #ADUyKjLK8a5g1P6ovg by fikran@thebag.social
2021-11-17T17:17:27.091536Z
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@humanetech @galaxis @tindall Thinking aloud, you could have the server manage such branches and point to the posts.
(DIR) Post #ADUyvn4RF010IUsmeW by weex@c4.social
2021-11-17T17:23:40Z
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@humanetech @freemo @galaxis @tindall @ColinTheMathmo @Chartodon Definitely! An earlier step in the process is for a server to traverse such a tree and solve this simpler problem: https://github.com/magicstone-dev/ecko/issues/266A navigable graph UI would be super cool!
(DIR) Post #ADUyw2RK6CEXxohluC by humanetech@mastodon.social
2021-11-17T17:16:44Z
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@ademan @tindall @lain @galaxis Yep, here's the full discussion chart:https://mathstodon.xyz/@Chartodon/107292055314001084
(DIR) Post #ADUyw4HTFnXbfq6vpI by humanetech@mastodon.social
2021-11-17T17:18:27Z
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@ademan @tindall @lain @galaxis There's also the issue that some branches went off-topic and I had to gently remind of that.
(DIR) Post #ADUyw6A6GApjVYg4cC by humanetech@mastodon.social
2021-11-17T17:21:39Z
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@ademan @tindall @lain @galaxis Btw, this discussion is forking interestingly as well.. I am in 4 parallel chats now.Calling @Chartodon
(DIR) Post #ADWJUGV6AIQ1xYc90C by doenietzomoeilijk@mastodon.nl
2021-11-18T08:49:06Z
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@freemo @humanetech @galaxis @tindall I recall a Usenet client having such an overview at the top of your post, a bit like the branches in a git repository - although it's been decades, so I might slightly misremember. Actually, a git-like view might work quite well to give you an idea of where you are in the convo. It'd be a client-side thing, though.
(DIR) Post #ADWdJcIuSswJTcWDLs by onan@dobbs.town
2021-11-18T12:31:19Z
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@tindall As the Mayor of https://dobbs.town I can provide a forum for members of the Church of the SubGenius that is inexpensive, easy to maintain, easy to moderate, and net generative to slack. We can, at the same time, take up or not the opposite to be seen by and respond to other groups.SubGenius has always been an early-adopter cult. We’re in the hardware of several early home computers. The first self-contained Linux. Slackware, is ours. Now we are in top 10% of fediverse by members.
(DIR) Post #ADXLbP8VM1yjJ92Hgm by portpupper@social.sakamoto.gq
2021-11-18T20:47:36.115070Z
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@tindall > consume forum-like communities in a centralized placeThis is the main reason why I believe web 1.0 forums died off. Reddit ate their audience by being the everything forum. Not only did it give one login to rule them all, it also gave infinitely-nested replies to allow for discussions to drift into natural off-topic territory rather than a long forum thread being derailed into an off-topic discussion. The cost of deeply-nested replies are extremely repetitive conversations where users unintentionally dogpile one another because they can't see that five others made the exact same point hidden behind a "see more" link.While early adopters of Tumblr+Twitter were web 1.0 users who migrated, their mainstream popularity is from people who became terminally online long after the web 1.0 forums were eaten by Reddit.> consistent markup for postingAs much as I'd prefer Textile, LaTeX, or Org Mode to Markdown, all four of these options are strict improvements to BBCode or XHTML with half the interesting tags stripped by the sanitizer.
(DIR) Post #ADXLgcQ3Oaw9x6jMO0 by clarfonthey@toot.cat
2021-11-14T18:57:15Z
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@tindall honestly... mobile versions. forums just stopped being developed and then that was that
(DIR) Post #ADXLgcy5M49veeeXQm by tindall@cybre.space
2021-11-14T18:58:08Z
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@clarfonthey yeah, this is something i definitely agree with. for all it's faults, discourse has done a pretty good job with this, and i feel confident it would be pretty easy to do for most kinds of forum software!
(DIR) Post #ADXLgdR9bzPZ6oFkjw by clarfonthey@toot.cat
2021-11-14T19:17:02Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@tindall honestly discourse really isn't a valid substitute for forum software since it really didn't match any of the original vibes it had going for it. it's a flat set of threads; it's a replacement for ticketing systems, really, not a forum
(DIR) Post #ADXYaxcUxRozN7BSPA by pry@raru.re
2021-11-18T23:13:09Z
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@tindall I would probably say the main thing for me (someone who never used something like phpBB but wants to) is that I actually have found a really great community of people here on the fediverse. I feel its much harder to find a phpBB forum for the things that I am interested in now
(DIR) Post #ADY3mcwwjRw3Jnn7GS by codeforchaos@cybre.space
2021-11-14T22:14:41Z
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@tindall honestly, I miss forums. Microblogging gave me invisibility. During the forum years, threads were openly inviting to engage and discuss. Microblogging is mostly just people brain dumping and it’s seldom clear whether you can engage or not. I’m part, and not part of the crowd. Microblogging feels like being on a busy city street, being there but not seen or acknowledged, and looking at all the people who are there too, not to be distracted. Forums on the other hand felt like communities, you’d even be welcomed upon joining. Microblogging is giving me longing and social anxiety.Twitter burned me out hard and fast. But I’m still #onhere somehow. :oh_no:
(DIR) Post #ADYOI32UGJWA7iWIUK by humanetech@mastodon.social
2021-11-17T17:03:46Z
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@galaxis @tindall And if your masto post references a forum discussion, asking to contribute there, then still no one does that so you have to copy/paste yourself to keep things in sync (having to create a forum account is a big barrier, of course)
(DIR) Post #ADYOI3gBshHE6r60NE by dredmorbius@toot.cat
2021-11-18T11:23:13Z
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@humanetech User accounts are a huge barrier period.The time when you could just post to a forum (or Usenet) via an anonymous form or self-asserted identity ... had its appeals. I'd love to see some kind of client-side PKI-based identity assertion rather than all the current crap of needing accounts or having some centralised identity service (which was what G+ was originally intended to be, BTW, since everyone's waxing rhapsodic over it here...).Use robust tech, hide that from the users who need to have that hidden from them. But enough with centralised identity.(And yes, it should support pseudonymity.)@galaxis @tindall
(DIR) Post #ADYOI4EDqAUzoP1BQ0 by ricardojmendez@mastodon.social
2021-11-18T20:40:34Z
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@dredmorbius @humanetech @galaxis @tindall Fascinating reading this - it's exactly one of the key design principles of something that a friend and I are working on: designing for personas.https://distributedc.org/#/post/zdpuAxUCDJSmGHsXKphXGkVqdEgGshhAu67r7Zyd3domWMF8N/799545d3-4778-53b8-91c8-3f5a5a6f5cb6Would love to read what you think if you give distributed[C] a try. Not adding more details for now because it would be great to see what kind of questions come up on a first encounter.(UI is still kind of raw - we are focusing on the core for now)
(DIR) Post #ADYOI4ZUZ5VqsMyAZU by dredmorbius@toot.cat
2021-11-18T11:58:34Z
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@humanetech And of course, spammers, griefers, propagandists, and worse, mostly ruined this.If there were some way to bring back some semblance of this though it'd be nice.@galaxis @tindall
(DIR) Post #ADYOI4ii0osxKxHWwC by dredmorbius@toot.cat
2021-11-18T22:59:17Z
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@ricardojmendez First impression is: this is a tabula rasa.To the extent that I can't for a good sense of what it is or is meant to be.I've made some attempt to make sense of the social media / user-generated content space as part of the project of moving people off Google+, a/k/a the Plexodus. See:https://social.antefriguserat.de/index.php/Social_Platforms@humanetech @galaxis @tindall #DistributedC #SocialNetwork #PlexodusWiki #SocialMedia #UserGeneratedContent
(DIR) Post #ADYOI5Uv7ZRxkTq25I by dredmorbius@toot.cat
2021-11-18T23:03:30Z
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@ricardojmendez One article that isn't there, though it probably should be, would be titled "So you want to start a new social network".It would probably draw heavily on my observations around the ill-fated "kinder, gentler Reddit", a/k/a Imzy:https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/500ysb/the_imzy_experience_well_that_escalated_quickly/ (one of a series of essays, but the key one).TL;DR: new social networks basically face two problem phases: 1) growth, 2) the problems of having grown.@humanetech @galaxis @tindall #UserGeneratedContent #SocialMedia #PlexodusWiki #SocialNetwork #DistributedC
(DIR) Post #ADYOI68GlGvRiWFSPw by dredmorbius@toot.cat
2021-11-18T23:07:46Z
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@ricardojmendez For a mature network, it's Problem Set 2 that is most evident. Veterans of mature networks are aware of the problems encountered at scale, and design a new network to address those problems.But to get to Problem Set 2, you've first got to address Problem Set 1: growing big enough to have those problems.And that's really tough because a huge element is sheer dumb luck. I mean, one lesson of G+ was that even with Google's backing and what was quite probably a $10 billion+ budget, specifically engineering growth is really, really hard. G+ didn't fail entirely (it had 10--100m active users, at least at its peak), but it certainly had the perception of failing.And as I've noted elsewhere in this very large thread, they actually addressed many of the issues of Problem Set 2.@humanetech @galaxis @tindall #DistributedC #SocialNetwork #PlexodusWiki #SocialMedia #UserGeneratedContent
(DIR) Post #ADYOI6kuRbpleMKJe4 by dredmorbius@toot.cat
2021-11-18T23:27:05Z
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@ricardojmendez A common theme of the most successful forums I've seen is that first and foremost they addressed some extant group or community's real needs. Usenet, BBSes, mailing lists, Slashdot, Reddit, Facebook, Twitter. Probably Instagram and TikTok.And that extant group had at least some level of aspirational appeal that others would be drawn to.Dates refer to formative periods, not the full reign of the modeUsenet (1970s -- early 1990s) was mostly technically-inclined college students (largely graduate), faculty, and staff, as well as some tech/military sector companies and a few government departments.BBSes and dial-up services (late 1980s -- mid 1990s) saw strong early growth amongst military families dealing with overseas stationing. I'd always sensed a somewhat stronger theme of this from that community, but it wasn't pointed out to me that these services explicitly marketed to military families until decades later. Cheap fast comms of a widly-distributed and large population.The WELL (1980s) was a BBS catering specifically to personal computing enthusiasts around the existing Whole Earth community.Mailing lists (1980s -- early 1990s) initially addressed programmer and technical-user needs to share development and peer-based technical support, as well as of distributed academic groups. (Email was largely limited to the same groups as Usenet and drew heavily from the same cohort.)Slashdot (late 1990s) was free-software geeks looking for a news / discussion source which wasn't beholden to Microsoft and its desktop monopoly and anti-Linux FUD, as well as the burgeoning set of dot-com / Web1.0 companies and technologies.Digg and later Reddit (early-to-mid 2000s) were something of refugee communities from early Slashdot, and both largely saw en-mass defections to themselves. Arguably that crown's now passed to HN, which similarly revolves around tech and startups much as Slashdot once had.Facebook (2004--8) was Literally Harvard, the Literally Ivies, then Literally Selective Universities, then Literally College Students. It based growth out of a young (long-term habit-forming) and appealing (both to other users and advertisers --- educated & high income potential) group.Twitter (2009--2014ish) seems to have largely appealed to media in both researching and publicising news stories, as well as interacting amongst themselves.Instagram and TikTok (late 2010s / early 2020s) seem to appeal strongly to the celebrity community --- pop music and cinema largely. (It's still early, I'm out of touch, this may well be wrong.) @humanetech @galaxis @tindall #UserGeneratedContent #SocialMedia #PlexodusWiki #SocialNetwork #DistributedC
(DIR) Post #ADYOI7OG5JJFcOjjyi by dredmorbius@toot.cat
2021-11-18T23:37:30Z
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@ricardojmendez An alternative to cohort-based communities is mechanism-based or technical ideology. Imzy was one of these, I'd argue that Tildes (ex-reddit staff) is, and Diaspora, Mastodon, and much of the Fediverse are.There are also anti-cohort communities, largely defined by opposition to a specific existing community. Typically, "we've been kicked out of X so we're starting / joining Y". In almost all cases these Go Very Poorly: Gab, Parlour, Truth, SomethingAwful, 4chan, 8chan, 8kun, ... Imzy was this to some extent.The problems these groups face are on both Problem Set 1 & Problem Set 2:The initial founding cohort is not high affinity to outsiders. Problem Set 1.The mentality driving technical infrastructure is very often opposed to good / effective / competent Problem Set 2 issues.Basically, the networks have terrible hygiene, sanitation, and trust & safety systems. Where they exist at all they're typically aimed at persecuting designated scapegoat populations. This is good for building a highly-tribalistic group, but poor at either scaling or promoting accurate rather than ideologically-conformant information and messaging.@humanetech @galaxis @tindall #DistributedC #SocialNetwork #PlexodusWiki #SocialMedia #UserGeneratedContent
(DIR) Post #ADYOI7xLypNlNF9lgG by dredmorbius@toot.cat
2021-11-18T23:56:28Z
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@ricardojmendez Having said all that...... it's really hard to see how a platform or network or protocol will be used without seeing extant use cases. And the first issue I've got with DistributedC is that I don't see any content.G+ faced a similar issue, the "Ghost Town" impression: people would join, register an account ... and then face a blank home stream. Attempts to populate this through identifying friends, suggested users, and/or an exceedingly bland set of topical suggestions ... were at best of limited success.Onboarding is a challenge. And my view is that onboarding individuals is a broken model, rather, onboarding groups should be a core goal.An example of this is Discord which originated as an out-of-band discussion channel amongst gamers. Wikia adopted a similar strategy around various fandoms. Rather than onboard individuals, these bring entire extant communities together at once (see earlier). They've remained somewhat niche, but are successful within those niches.@humanetech @galaxis @tindall #UserGeneratedContent #SocialMedia #PlexodusWiki #SocialNetwork #DistributedC
(DIR) Post #ADYOI8YDlksBDaPD96 by dredmorbius@toot.cat
2021-11-19T00:00:22Z
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@ricardojmendez The other issue I have is that I don't see how DistributedC is actually handling identity. Best I can tell, it permits multiple identities, but still centralises their management.That's ... an issue.Mind: centrallised tracking of identities can be critically important in trust-and-safety, and that there's an inherent challenge between providing a decentralised and privacy-conscious service and ensuring various forms of abuse, ranging from name-calling to global crime syndicates or worse, aren't readily facilitated. That's a tall order.Not sure how well this corresponds with what you have in mind, but I hope that's at least marginally useful./end/@humanetech @galaxis @tindall #DistributedC #SocialNetwork #PlexodusWiki #SocialMedia #UserGeneratedContent
(DIR) Post #ADYOI9E3GEKjJJycLY by dredmorbius@toot.cat
2021-11-19T00:59:21Z
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@ricardojmendez Addendum 1:What problem is DistributedC trying to solve? What is/are its goals and methods?See: https://old.reddit.com/r/dredmorbius/comments/2fsr0g/hierarchy_of_failures_in_problem_resolution/(That's phrased as a failure chain, but you can invert logic to get a necessary success chain: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28972349)What community/ies does it address?How will it sustain itself?@humanetech @galaxis @tindall
(DIR) Post #ADYOI9V4ExwcA5wCrw by dredmorbius@toot.cat
2021-11-19T00:00:50Z
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#tootstorm (for my own reference) #UserGeneratedContent #SocialMedia #PlexodusWiki #SocialNetwork #DistributedC
(DIR) Post #ADYOI9ljF1GuzljVq4 by dredmorbius@toot.cat
2021-11-19T04:34:44Z
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@ricardojmendez Addendum 2:I'd suggest finding some extant group (or groups) with unserved communications needs, and serving those.All the better if there's a clear growth path from that initial group to a wider population.This doesn't necessarily have to operate in concert with developing the platform, though I strongly suspect it's best if the two are reasonably well coupled.@humanetech @galaxis @tindall
(DIR) Post #ADYOIAU2aGiXDCStuK by dredmorbius@toot.cat
2021-11-19T04:39:25Z
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@ricardojmendez Addendum 3:The difference between Problem Set 1 and Problem Set 2 is pretty stark. The stuff that helps you in 1 does little for you in 2 and vice versa.The transition between the two can be quite sudden. As in overnight you go from "how do we survive/grow?" to "how do we deal with our own growth and consequences?"And you've got to solve the problems in order. First 1, then 2. The other way 'round really doesn't work.Failure to solve both (in correct sequence) also doesn't work. It's no good if you nail 1 and foul up 2, or vice versa.Problem Set 1 does, as noted, have a large element of sheer dumb luck. Standard portfolio theory (diversify your risks / spread your bets) applies.It's usually best to take on an incumbent in a domain in which it does not, will not, or can not compete, rather than to assault it head on.@humanetech @galaxis @tindall
(DIR) Post #ADYOIB2mV6VSwwie3c by humanetech@mastodon.social
2021-11-19T08:50:04Z
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@dredmorbius Very thorough and great feedback!Wrt "please try this" I too find it important to know 1st whose behind it, what it does, what are values / rationale and how is it monetized.Identity is imho most important to get right on a decentralized web. People should be in full control of them, a 'portfolio' of easily managed identities that can be anonymous, pseudonymous or verified which you choose to attach to available communities, services, apps.@ricardojmendez @galaxis @tindall
(DIR) Post #ADYefyIH9gv7cfKnNw by zladuric@mastodon.technology
2021-11-17T14:33:50Z
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@ivan @tindall Yes, you can never take back the online stuff. Fedi is replicated all over, but so is twitter, reddit, lots of facebook, more public circles of G+.If I have a thought I oughta keep to myself, I better keep it to myself. Even secure E2EE chat platforms are not safe, for two reasons: 1. the other end might be compromised itself (or mine, but let's assume not), and 2. encryption will get broken into and read eventually.
(DIR) Post #ADYefzdw8dqDo8Tbmq by zladuric@mastodon.technology
2021-11-17T14:36:06Z
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@ivan @tindall I think it's best to treat all of the internet as caffes. Some are downtown, everybody's there, you most like aren't noticed (and if you are, everybody's following you anyway). Some are small local cafes. You'll go to both of them with friends to have a beer, but you never know where the waiter is from, or did the owner install some cameras.
(DIR) Post #ADYeg172fuiWMh6MnA by zladuric@mastodon.technology
2021-11-17T14:38:17Z
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@ivan @tindall all that said, I like to go downtown hipster caffes to have some fun, see what's the newest fashion and all. But I prefer a local corner cafe where I'm acquainted with the waiter and usually recognise most of the other patrons.I don't wanna bring Ash into this thread, but, thanks, Ash, for hosting mastodon.technology cafe and serving hot cooffee and/or cold beer to the people around here :)
(DIR) Post #ADYjAjdo5EOoyJKWvY by humanetech@mastodon.social
2021-11-19T08:50:23Z
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@dredmorbius Trust associated with an identity is a combination of implicit trust ("I know this anonymous person from prior interactions") and verified credentials ("French gov authority says they are French, FSFE says they are Developer.. this is a French FOSS developer")There's way more to this, and very complex. Also not particularly referring to VC standards draft, just conceptual.Wanted to say something on the 1) Growth and 2) Manage growth points.@ricardojmendez @galaxis @tindall
(DIR) Post #ADYjAkLPT7HH9XjLtI by humanetech@mastodon.social
2021-11-19T08:50:44Z
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@dredmorbius This takes the perspective of someone offering a full-blown social network and then make it successful. It is thinking in 'apps', full-blown 'feature islands'/platforms that offer a complete experience.In the Decentralized Social Web based on open interop standards we get opportunity to do a further breakdown, where app and server/platform boundaries become less visible or even disappear.@ricardojmendez @galaxis @tindall
(DIR) Post #ADYjAkxhAlu14HdvZA by humanetech@mastodon.social
2021-11-19T08:51:08Z
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@dredmorbius This web has both Identity and Community embedded in its fabric, not tied to any app/platform.Communities as they exist IRL are intricate social structures. They intertwine, overlap, interconnect, nest etc. They have common relationships between them, and personal relationships that differ per individual. These relationships have semantics, they are meaningful and determine the role a group or individual has to other 'actors.@ricardojmendez @galaxis @tindall
(DIR) Post #ADYjAlW56vPMmvjOAC by humanetech@mastodon.social
2021-11-19T08:51:29Z
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@dredmorbius Now consider the division this brings.You have the personal experience where people navigate the community fabric with the identities of their choice via its relationships and they make new ones according to preferences ("My foss_developer identity becomes maintainer_of this_project", "My anonymous_cat identity chats in this_chatroom", etc).On the other end of the spectrum you now have Providers of capabilitilies, features, components, apps.@ricardojmendez @galaxis @tindall
(DIR) Post #ADYjAndFFGKJLj68bg by humanetech@mastodon.social
2021-11-19T08:51:50Z
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@dredmorbius A provider is also a person or organization (an actor) and does much of the same in terms of forging relationships in the social fabric.They may offer a Forum capability and tie it to one or more Communities. A forum_host identity may approach other hosts from different provider and agree to collaborate. They may share subsets of their community e.g. by synching content on a shared theme.In doing so they benefit from existing communities.@ricardojmendez @galaxis @tindall
(DIR) Post #ADYjApSKSomd0S0Rs0 by humanetech@mastodon.social
2021-11-19T08:52:17Z
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@dredmorbius They don't have to 'growth-hack' an empty app platform necessarily. They also have less need to implement a feature-complete platform. They collaborate with many other providers to create task-oriented experiences that attract individual people and communities.From personal perspective similar thing happens. You may invite communities to an attractive place. The full group (e.g. your family) may join, or a subset, new relationships are formed.@ricardojmendez @galaxis @tindall
(DIR) Post #ADYjArEZquyIWNaUiG by humanetech@mastodon.social
2021-11-19T08:52:38Z
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@dredmorbius This is roughly the outline of what I call "Community has no Boundary" paradigm. Social networking reimagined.In this vision it is not needed to make 3yr programming all-or-nothing gambles on a full-blown social platform and growth-hack until the network effects start to work in your favor.In fact the entire idea of "packed present" feature-complete walled gardens starts to make less sense, when you can have tailored unique experiences.@ricardojmendez @galaxis @tindall
(DIR) Post #ADYjAt3f4TQcB6Unya by humanetech@mastodon.social
2021-11-19T08:53:06Z
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@dredmorbius There'll be competition not on app scale, but domain-specific components that interoperate so they are like building blocks.Both server/domain and app boundaries disappear.It will open new revenue models. I could offer rock-solid Revision Tracking or Content Review that can be combined with a Forum component for open science communities.Of course much of this stands or falls with the levels of Interoperability that can be achieved.@ricardojmendez @galaxis @tindall
(DIR) Post #ADYjAv5rVGNQUVXagS by humanetech@mastodon.social
2021-11-19T08:53:31Z
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@dredmorbius Both on fedi and e.g. SolidProject we have Linked Data to express domain-specific semantics, define micro-ontologies, closed-world vocabularies that define one concept well.. and then create building blocks from those to use in task-oriented services and apps. Cover the needs of specific domains, interact with other domains, etc.It is complex, but also it need not all be standardized. You choose building blocks on a set of qualitative criteria@ricardojmendez @galaxis @tindall
(DIR) Post #ADYjAwqgydQlw2SVJg by humanetech@mastodon.social
2021-11-19T08:53:58Z
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@dredmorbius Key to this vision is to move some currently app-specific parts to the core communication layers of the stack.Besides Identity, Community, a set of common Relationship types this would include a discovery mechanism for Modules, their Capabilities and compliance levels, plus ways to integrate/invoke them into your message-oriented service/app design. Something like that.Imho if we had a bit more of this the fedi could make big strides forward@ricardojmendez @galaxis @tindall
(DIR) Post #ADYjAydILPu1T4CpiC by humanetech@mastodon.social
2021-11-19T08:54:21Z
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@dredmorbius Consider how things work now: A maintainer chooses to host a federated app, say Mastodon. They get a big chunk of functionality where all features are pre-determined and they depend fully on the devs to evolve them.The community is implicitly the server where they launch stuff. They can only implicitly state that it has a Theme, via the domain name and the CoC/ToS. They might restyle it with some CSS, and maybe add some app-specific extensions@ricardojmendez @galaxis @tindall
(DIR) Post #ADYjB0JA7EzEfCnmbo by humanetech@mastodon.social
2021-11-19T08:54:46Z
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@dredmorbius And that's about it. Even the fact that they are the Maintainer is not a fedi-native concept.Also the community is not fedi-native. It's implicit, only exists in the minds of participants. Of course to an extent this will always be the case, as there's the boundary where the digital abstraction of community moves to their IRL personal perception of it."Community has no Boundary" aims to offer a better abstraction, and it can be fedi-native.@ricardojmendez @galaxis @tindall
(DIR) Post #ADYjDbhW3r8BDMR0QC by feonixrift@hackers.town
2021-11-14T19:02:27Z
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@tindall I just want what g+ could have been if it weren't Google
(DIR) Post #ADYjDcK9kC2V9CVreK by seachaint@hackers.town
2021-11-14T19:10:51Z
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@feonixrift @tindall If it's the "circles" model, didn't they just "borrow" that from Diaspora?If only we could get Diaspora on ActivityPub, now..
(DIR) Post #ADYjDdlUO3UtcGJCtM by feonixrift@hackers.town
2021-11-14T19:03:32Z
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@tindall and... Ok the awful thing is I think I have an idea what it would take to build it?
(DIR) Post #ADcCx9FRnYklmRwtto by xavavu@red.tiliches.net
2021-11-15T21:47:37Z
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@✨Nora Tindall Wow, reading through some of the comments on here, I see a lot of longing for G+ (or certain feature(s) of G+). The only fediverse platform (that I'm aware of) that currently comes close to matching the functionality of G+ Circles, Collections, and Communities is Zap.Like Circles, Lists in Zap allows one to share only select posts with a subset of contacts. You can have lists for family, close friends, classmates, coworkers, etc. Contacts can be on more than one list.Collections in Zap work just as they did in G+. They serve to curate one's posts by topic. Others can follow the collection instead of the main channel (for example, if only interested in someone's "tech" posts but not "personal" or "politcal").Groups in Zap would be like G+ Communities. Zap groups can also be an effective way to get some of that functionality of web forums in the fediverse.As such, Zap is more than microblogging. Posts can be composed using a subset of Markdown and/or BBCode. Images can be embedded. Hyperlinks can be added. And of course #ActivityPub.So if any other projects out there are considering incorporating any similar functionality, no need to start from scratch. These features are already working in the fediverse today.#googleplus #gplus #circles #aspects #forums #groups #zap
(DIR) Post #ADcCyltdagJtw3WPQW by handle@sunbeam.city
2021-11-14T20:13:02Z
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@tindall I was in the wilderness for a long time after I drifted away from my favourite vbulletin forums – the friction of using $some_random_website instead of a client for the "well-defined C2S 'forum protocol'" utopia that you describe became too much, and 15 years later that protocol and those apps still don't really exist 😕 i use Discourse fairly heavily now and I like it, even if it feels like a hacky stopgap a lot of the time (not being able to build their own native client app is... not a good sign to me).
(DIR) Post #ADcCymTnQFF9kCRHmq by handle@sunbeam.city
2021-11-14T20:14:28Z
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@tindall the two things i think are missing from from the activitypub ecosystem to be the forum replacement i want it to be are:#1 groups - I don't even really care if they're private (never used G+ so I never got used to "circles"), I just want to be able to join interest groups on masto like I could on Facebook#2 email integration. there's a *huge* opportunity here to eat Facebook's lunch, they made their email notifications worse than useless because they couldn't stuff enough ads in them, this is one place discourse really shines. people don't even necessarily realise they're on a forum instead of a mailing list! For folks who are hard-wired into their email clients, or who have preferences for email over webapps for accessibility reasons, it'd be a huge and easy improvement.
(DIR) Post #ADcCyoMQQcXHZv0QZk by spencer@motley.club
2021-11-14T20:48:27Z
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I'm with you on groups! Friendica, which I'm running, supports what it confusingly calls "forums", which are kind of like groups—when you tag them, they replicate the post and share it to all subscribers.I would love it if making, joining, and sharing to interest groups were a lot smoother in the ActivityPub ecosystem.
(DIR) Post #ADcCyorcYdUP8fbLCS by humanetech@mastodon.social
2021-11-17T16:16:06Z
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@spencer @tindall @handle There's renewed discussion on #ActivityPub Groups on #SocialHub at:https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/standardizing-on-activitypub-groups/1984And on another note.. #Discourse is slated to get federation support via its plugin architecture if all things go well:https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/discourse-will-be-joining-the-fediverse/2071I would love to see Community be a native fedi concept, which is Groups + Relationships, both to members and other groups. And would replace Instance - a technical division - as de-facto community.