Post ADbO2PscIHsH9H1bU0 by gray@fosstodon.org
(DIR) More posts by gray@fosstodon.org
(DIR) Post #ADaldCxxNF0pbD4jQm by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-11-20T12:23:04Z
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Some thoughts on recent #Linux elitism (not sure elitism is the right word, but I can't think of a better one right now) I heard on Late Night Linux. ☹️https://kevq.uk/this-is-whats-wrong-with-linux-community
(DIR) Post #ADamH5EPYAzfC5mmHI by pyre35@fosstodon.org
2021-11-20T12:30:27Z
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@kev I actually feel like this extends to techies/tech-nerds/whatever you want to call us/them. Can't tell you how many people claim to have the "best" solution only for the overwhelming majority to discover that it's overly complex and cumbersome. It is elitism. We should just call a lot of things "good" solutions, and not let perfect be the enemy of good. occasionally it's a good exercise to scroll through stack overflow and discover some of those "best" solutions lol.
(DIR) Post #ADamPRy2tzHe1d7XKC by pyre35@fosstodon.org
2021-11-20T12:31:59Z
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@kev also what's the old saying? the best solution is the best one that works for you? something like that.
(DIR) Post #ADamdF7VStsSEZ7fH6 by levi@fosstodon.org
2021-11-20T12:34:29Z
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@kev IDK, I think there's a difference between saying "this is the best way" and "this is the way everyone needs to do it".I would actually agree that self hosting a UI like round cube is better than an installed app like kmail or something, but I'd be very wary of who I suggested it to.
(DIR) Post #ADanECVq7fc6rT7wm0 by markusl@fosstodon.org
2021-11-20T12:41:03Z
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@kev You're right. Making people feel as if they're too ignorant for Linux or won't be welcomed by the community, or as if running Linux is a full-time job, is an excellent way to stop them using it.
(DIR) Post #ADapf7DG8PW69TOjOC by levi@fosstodon.org
2021-11-20T12:36:14Z
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@kev as an aside, I didn't enjoy Jim's participation at all. he came off as arrogant. that's fine, I'm sure he's a great guy, I just usually enjoy the LNL banter immensely and he had a completely different flavour.
(DIR) Post #ADapf7kw7CSHpv9csi by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-11-20T13:08:25Z
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@levi I’m glad it’s not just me. That’s why i stopped listening to 2.5 Admins. He comes across as very arrogant to me too.
(DIR) Post #ADapfAABAJprImyoVM by levi@fosstodon.org
2021-11-20T12:42:43Z
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@kevaside II:spinning up round cube isn't as easy as installing an app, but its nowhere near as complex as a lamp stack. I've used their docker container in the past, can spin it up with a one liner:https://github.com/roundcube/roundcubemail-docker
(DIR) Post #ADapyDS5A6sz0JRHsG by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-11-20T13:11:53Z
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@levi i think it’s all subjective, right? All depends on what someone’s needs are i suppose.Personally, I’d recommend the standard webGUI over a self hosted one. Pretty much email services come with webmail these days. Don’t see the point in reinventing the wheel.
(DIR) Post #ADaq1KXPH0p1qiPlT6 by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-11-20T13:12:25Z
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@levi docker containers are a whole other thing that come with their own complexity.
(DIR) Post #ADaq5hfxBngMlhUuum by linmob@fosstodon.org
2021-11-20T13:13:06Z
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@kev Honestly, I find that this eliticism is less bad than it used to be when I started in the 2000s, and I doubt it's a Linux problem: Some humans just need to brag and depreciate others. I feel sorry for them.I also wasn't a fan of the LNL discussion, but more for the fact of simply not mentioning good old solid boring Evolution (and loads of other desktop software). It just was a spontaneous discussion. Still, I might try and setup Roundcube once I have the time to do so.
(DIR) Post #ADaqDa15Y8Y7KZ8gbo by picamanic@fosstodon.org
2021-11-20T13:14:31Z
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@kev If you want to see what real LinuxElitism is, look at https://sysdfree.wordpress.comBut seriously, there is a problem with Linux, but elitism isn't it.Ubuntu was the poster-boy for easy-to-use Linux, and it and Mint are reasonable ways to ween computer users away from Windows [the real villain here].The problem is that Linux has become too bloated through corporate influences. Sysdfree is a reaction to that.I have a rant capability, but life is too short.
(DIR) Post #ADaroPPk21pF7InOAy by kosmoplan@fosstodon.org
2021-11-20T13:32:30Z
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@kev good post, and 100% agree. And it is everywhere (e.g. programming languages - who hasn't heard “X is rubbish”, said even in front of people whose entire career is based on using that language).You might not be sure of what the point of the article is. To me, the outcome is we should be more humble and respectful. I think this is getting increasingly annoying in our field.
(DIR) Post #ADat3ha2s9OFkwTHX6 by Sire@fosstodon.org
2021-11-20T13:46:02Z
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@kev I bet you 20$ that the eBay guy doesn't even use Gentoo.
(DIR) Post #ADatDN9BhIPrHOWIyG by b847c1960@mastodon.online
2021-11-20T13:48:13Z
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@kev great post, i enjoyed the content. I also think it is partially true because self imposed rules and elitism might be a way to push yourself further (weird, right?). I am sure that there is another way but maybe this is the root for some peopke sounding like that? Just a thought here :-)
(DIR) Post #ADayaPDMg0RC7fHC8u by joeligj12@fosstodon.org
2021-11-20T14:48:23Z
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@kev @levi I see your point but I think its worth pointing out that native clients were a thing before web based ones
(DIR) Post #ADayeQ1bbbyznIgosq by joeligj12@fosstodon.org
2021-11-20T14:49:11Z
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@kev @levi I see your point but I think its worth pointing out that native clients were a thing before web based ones, so they were the ones reinventing the wheelI kinda wish that never happened, because it would mean that native clients would be a lot better today!
(DIR) Post #ADazpSfCEg6t7K2NEm by fedops@fosstodon.org
2021-11-20T15:02:19Z
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@kev same here. And his abrasiveness is accentuated by how chill Allan is.@levi
(DIR) Post #ADb0J5BG6ofyyR9u76 by fedops@fosstodon.org
2021-11-20T15:07:43Z
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@kev I agree with him that email clients have not aged well. Since everyone uses webmail by Google these days anyway, a lot of development seems to have stopped.It's interesting they mentioned Mailmate, which is one of the most feature rich and still actively developed email clients; alas available only on Macos.Personally I hate webmail and the thought of storing emails in a database makes me cringe. That's why I stick with tui mail clients.But as you say - there is no best way.
(DIR) Post #ADb1jUonVk19yGoNCC by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-11-20T15:23:40Z
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@fedops I really like the way Allan conducts himself, but then Jim pipes and almost undermines him. Yeah, not a fan.@levi
(DIR) Post #ADb3YOgKBcW9f4gRpg by pyre35@fosstodon.org
2021-11-20T15:44:13Z
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@levi @kev best is just way too loaded of a word. It's very presumptuous. I think the world would be a lot better place if people had a little humility. There are only a select few people that are expert enough at something to say what is the best way, and even then, as @kev puts it, it depends on the user. Also, there is an often forgotten principle that oftentimes when people become experts at things, they forget how to teach or learn, and thus really have no business lecturing on "best"
(DIR) Post #ADb4XubE8CeUJjdEP2 by seb@ioc.exchange
2021-11-20T15:55:19Z
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@kev IMHO most of the Linux elite is judgmental and doesn’t try to understand other people’s needs and abilities. If everyone would be more curious about one another’s circumstances, the linux community could be much more helpful.
(DIR) Post #ADb5N7ZZekrLK2HF7w by charims@social.pcwideopen.com
2021-11-20T16:04:30.278143Z
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for some people, opening the terminal is too much for them..., so even a one-liner is out of the question. That doesn't make them a bad user, it just means they aren't an operator, which is just fine.I like roudcube. I think its a good solution, however, I prefer #aerc myself. Still, I can see why Thunderbird, Geary, or Kmail are better solutions for the more graphically inclined. Its all just choices though, and that's why I like the Linux ecosystem (Gnu or not) because I get choice, I can build my environment to suit me. For some users their level of customization relies heavily on the choices made for them by people who understand the underpinnings and can create smooth workflows. This is OK too.Different choices are NOT lesser choices. They are just different. The Linux community has many noisy people(myself included) who throw their opinions around and cast judgement on the choices of others, the state of projects, etc. I think the solution to this is actually from the silent majority, through encouraging bystander intervention. To call it out when they see this happening. Thanks for intervening @kev
(DIR) Post #ADb66hCE3XLIpz5V56 by icedquinn@blob.cat
2021-11-20T16:12:49.186196Z
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@seb @kev as it has always been with unix."how can you not have just known that spkfbpf was the command to prevent the computer from deleting all of your files?"
(DIR) Post #ADb6dFf3S3Smzm61BY by ssafar@fosstodon.org
2021-11-20T16:18:31Z
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@kev it is one thing to assume that everyone can deal with messy installs, but... it's the same attitude that prevents us from making said installs less messy, toomost of it should have been simplified away, but we keep thinking "don't worry, only sysadmins will do this anyway"(actually, https://simonsafar.com/2021/installing_services/ is kinda about this; I should probably rewrite it to be half as long, but then I still got to produce another 56 of these first :D)
(DIR) Post #ADb6tNYZrcSs7GkxvM by pyre35@fosstodon.org
2021-11-20T16:21:37Z
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@ssafar @kev lol love the disclaimer at the top :) Have often felt like that as I chug through the challenge!
(DIR) Post #ADbBENV1fhOppvMcsK by admin@happylittle.cloudns.cc
2021-11-20T17:10:13.627048Z
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@charims >for some people, opening the terminal is too much for them..., so even a one-liner is out of the question. That doesn't make them a bad user...Disagree@kev
(DIR) Post #ADbKeeFytEcsvPvcDQ by alatiera@mastodon.social
2021-11-20T18:55:43Z
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@kev That was a nice and fun blogpost to read. Thanks! The ebay guy was hilarious.
(DIR) Post #ADbNPFYoj9MTql5VWy by norcalgeekdad@mastodon.social
2021-11-20T19:26:27Z
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@kevGood thoughts. Thanks for sharing.
(DIR) Post #ADbO2PscIHsH9H1bU0 by gray@fosstodon.org
2021-11-20T19:33:31Z
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@kev I had similar thoughts while listening to that episode. I also didn’t enjoy it at all, which is rare.This overly complex thinking is rife, as others have already said. Why use a desktop app when you can spin up a Kubernetes cluster with 23 docker containers and a VPN for your web based text editor…
(DIR) Post #ADbP90i2NNTD43mhxQ by alacer@fosstodon.org
2021-11-20T19:45:44Z
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@kev Ubuntu is used by Google and Based on Debian which is Quite mature and Stable in itself. Well There are Advance users of MAC-OS and Windows, I agree to the Point.Linux has suffered alot and Microsoft has again taken advantage by Making WSL and Docker likes part of Windows. Hopes of Desktop UI are gone with Android Being mostly Mobile Centric.
(DIR) Post #ADbTNG4uQnZwbKX3QG by levi@fosstodon.org
2021-11-20T20:33:26Z
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@kev containers can be complex, but running roundcube in a container is not particularly so.
(DIR) Post #ADbTmPoBOL7k1Chivw by AaronTheIssueGuy@mast.aaron.place
2021-11-20T20:37:56Z
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@kev Same goes for guides concerning linux. The comandline is great for advanced users but it will throw of anyone who is used to Windows or MacOS and some guides dont even mention GUI based solutions. The addressee of those guides is clear: Advanced users
(DIR) Post #ADbX3GlCaKlyk32Que by nathan@wpbuilds.social
2021-11-20T21:14:33Z
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@kev this is why I no longer touch Linux. I LOVE the ideals, but the technical expectation is often simply ludicrous. IF any distribution were to fully embrace the expectation that typical users hate computers and never want to address settings or configuration options, I think that it would do really well.
(DIR) Post #ADcCLgRrubP3kGtWFM by alcinnz@floss.social
2021-11-21T04:57:19Z
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@kev I wrote something similar recently: https://adrian.geek.nz/fossbros
(DIR) Post #ADcFzudAtwS1B23bAO by humanetech@mastodon.social
2021-11-21T05:38:19Z
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@LinuxLounge @kev While Kev's linux phenomenon may best fit the bill of elitism, in the case of FOSS 'purism' may be better.People that are promoting the use of FOSS - which can be very user-friendly, not elitist - but aggressively blame others for using too little of it whenever they spot the use of some 'evil' non-FOSS.The advocacy follows a "Purity Spiral".(See definition I extracted from an article, and recognized + encountered in a FOSS context on e.g. fedi)https://community.humanetech.com/t/social-media-and-purity-spirals/5263
(DIR) Post #ADces7iupxzWJv7oa8 by herag@dobbs.town
2021-11-21T10:17:03Z
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@kevI simply find it odd that they say to use a webmail service... doesn't that defeat the whole point of having a client? Why not just use the web client for your email service to begin with?
(DIR) Post #ADcgWNt4GBEFzMdRcO by ghost_letters@fosstodon.org
2021-11-21T10:35:31Z
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@herag @kevOne solution does work offline the other does not.With a local (web tech based) client you can manage muliple different mail accounts. In contrast, with gmail webclient you cannot manage mails from any other mail provider.
(DIR) Post #ADch3UnjZhoqzKvfpg by evilham@chaos.social
2021-11-21T10:41:23Z
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@kev the conversation you quote would have been so much different if instead of asking like an elitist prick and making assumptions based on tools you use, they'd have said "nice, what do you like about them?" and both not make assumptions and allow for a far more interesting conversation.People are weird, you do you, it's great .
(DIR) Post #ADchbmZjzrrFxajWBU by herag@dobbs.town
2021-11-21T10:47:43Z
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@ghost_letters @kev I guess I don't understand then... why not just use a native client? Maybe I'm just not in the same mindset as the dudes from that podcast... actually, I know I'm not. Everytime I listen I am just out off by their whole tone about Linux to begin with.Just not my cup of tea I guess.
(DIR) Post #ADcpkBm6zMcg462TkO by ghost_letters@fosstodon.org
2021-11-21T12:18:51Z
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@herag @kevI would say it is just a matter of different assumption how the tech stack should look like. Having the frontend in a browser has its own advantages.Actually I like the idea of having a local server and reuse the browser for rendering the UI.Of course native clients have also benefits, but I think the pros and cons are not really the topic here. Still I like the architecture. Let me know if you wanna discuss this further. :)
(DIR) Post #ADdLq4nd28uihYbF4q by KelsonV@wandering.shop
2021-11-21T18:18:23Z
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@kev The eBay story is just bizarre to me. I was thrilled when Linux distros matured to the point where I didn't need to compile my own kernel anymore...15 years ago!I guess by that guy's standard I'm still a noob too! :blob_dizzy_face:
(DIR) Post #ADdPOpuGhFniVfyJ9s by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-11-21T18:58:17Z
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@KelsonV i thought it strange too. Clearly he has lots of free time. 😊
(DIR) Post #ADdnxk1My6C1I9TD0a by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-11-21T23:33:25Z
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@david that’s interesting, but nothing anyone couldn’t find by other means if they were motivated to do so. Please don’t DDoS me, I won’t be able to watch Netflix or post my drivel! 😂😂Get your points about beginners vs tinkerers and I wholeheartedly agree. It isn’t that which I take umbrage to. It’s the fact it was being sold as the best solution. Plus, LNL is often touts itself as a means of enticing folk to Linux, so I think my point was valid. 😊
(DIR) Post #ADedOXea9bPWPpLexk by danielfgom@mastodon.social
2021-11-22T09:09:34Z
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@kev It's sad but true. Linux often makes basic things complex unnecessarily. Even on server. There are few GUI tools and everything is complex. A Windows server is fantastic GUI wise and relatively easy to administer.
(DIR) Post #ADekEiK0KoM8Hkz4bY by danielfgom@mastodon.social
2021-11-22T10:17:06Z
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@kev And it suddenly occured to me to mention even Mastodon has this problem. Try share a link to a post to an external user (eg email or message it to yourself). Then click that link. What you expect to see: the toot you shared, available to read easilyWhat you get: a "create an account to view this toot" page. It's BS! Who on earth is going to create an account on some obscure platform to read a toot???!
(DIR) Post #ADekEis2IHZtzIuFeK by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-11-22T10:26:27Z
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@danielfgom not sure if that's a config option within Mastodon, but you can share public links from Fosstodon.I just tried a link to this post in a private window and it worked.https://fosstodon.org/@kev/107309366289274322
(DIR) Post #ADelghJXm1vpDufywi by Iutech@fosstodon.org
2021-11-22T10:42:44Z
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@kev I've never used geary, is it good ?
(DIR) Post #ADeovmF02QyCi3QtDU by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-11-22T11:19:02Z
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@Iutech I haven't used it for a long time. I always struggled with it because it was too basic for my needs, but if you just need to send/receive mail, it works great.
(DIR) Post #ADeqkfAOCSxvUY6XEe by tomdeb@fosstodon.org
2021-11-22T11:39:29Z
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@kev Doesn't this his applies to every community? Gamers with their liquid-cooled GPUs? Fishtank nerds? (motor)bikers? pedal bike people? Once one invests a certain amount of time into something, one will naturally prefer solutions in line with one's skills. And by the way, there is not a single good email client on any platform.
(DIR) Post #ADetkkycthEZNHL3mC by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-11-22T12:13:06Z
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@tomdeb hmmm I _kinda_ agree. I suppose there is elitism in every community, but it seems more prevalent in Linux...maybe that's just me?To use fish keeping as an analogy, I'd never tell you you're doing it wrong because you have a sump instead of a canister. It's personal choice.
(DIR) Post #ADeuC4jHZ9VOSFBj2u by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-11-22T12:18:03Z
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@tomdeb and that's the rub for me. It's not that someone had a different opinion than myself, it's the arrogance or saying "my way is best and you're all wrong"
(DIR) Post #ADfGBrdASqiQozdHBw by Dashtop@mastodon.online
2021-11-22T16:24:38Z
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@pyre35 a solution that eradicates the problem?
(DIR) Post #ADfKvLRyqHVm9YLGzY by mike@fosstodon.org
2021-11-22T17:17:35Z
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@kev @tomdeb Honestly, the community I've experienced the MOST elitism from has been the Apple community. Just reading the comments section on an Apple specific site gives me the urge to vomit. Jim did come off as super abrasive though. For me it wasn't necessarily the elitist attitude. LNL has that without Jim. Just ask them about KDE or XFCE. For me, Jim is just one of those people that rubs me the wrong way. I feel like he could be annoying for me regardless of what he was saying.
(DIR) Post #ADfNgy4rFGiBTIMYnA by fedops@fosstodon.org
2021-11-22T17:48:32Z
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@mike I think the difference is in /how/ something is being said. If Félim and Joe enthuse about KDE and Xfce respectively I don't take it as derogatory against users of other DEs. That's different to how Jim comes across.@kev @tomdeb
(DIR) Post #ADfOUzrItd1XTXsXKa by mike@fosstodon.org
2021-11-22T17:57:37Z
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@fedops I don't disagree, especially since Jim annoyed the hell out of me the second he signed on, but this makes elitism purely a matter of perception. If I found Jim intelligent and thoughtful with an insightful and cheerful take on technology, I may feel the same way about Jim you feel regarding Félim and Joe. It's my opinion that if we're going to be calling out elitism within the community, we need to call out what's being said, not just how likable the person saying it is.@kev @tomdeb
(DIR) Post #ADfesVj8AxPAEwI2uO by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-11-22T21:01:11Z
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@mike yeah, i find him very annoying too.@tomdeb
(DIR) Post #ADfyG3jxmMI3WJcbqK by pyre35@fosstodon.org
2021-11-23T00:38:16Z
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@mike @kev @tomdeb apple community is elitist? What? color me surprised.
(DIR) Post #ADgKfplKZLiIgmxNoW by MrDers@fosstodon.org
2021-11-23T04:49:27Z
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@kev @mike @tomdeb I don't think he is elitist because he strike me as thinking he is better than most people. He may think he is more informed and maybe smarter, but not morally or ethically better. That might be the way I view the term elitists, or Apple people. Either way he is like that uncle that knows his crap, you just need to deal with the rough edges. I'm hard to offend though.
(DIR) Post #ADgXdqj7JOLWVMIzdg by danielfgom@mastodon.social
2021-11-23T07:14:47Z
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@kev You're right. That works properly now. Just a week ago I shared a toot and it didn't work. Anyway glad its sorted.