Post ACuqeMSkdBAJ0CGSR6 by matograine@mastodon.zaclys.com
(DIR) More posts by matograine@mastodon.zaclys.com
(DIR) Post #ACowTvUctXtvQAU5a4 by herag@dobbs.town
2021-10-28T10:38:49Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
So I've heard from the anti #bitcoin people.Pro bitcoiners, why is bitcoin not a ponzi scheme?
(DIR) Post #ACoxbxrS4e6F2KYcym by yukiame@noagendasocial.com
2021-10-28T10:51:28Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@herag if no new Users join the network a Ponzi falls apart but Bitcoin would chugg along
(DIR) Post #ACoxhRzhT2ifwN212W by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2021-10-28T10:52:27Z
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@yukiame @herag but will its price keep going up?
(DIR) Post #ACoxlvIkRhXpzf4dge by yukiame@noagendasocial.com
2021-10-28T10:53:13Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@wolf480pl @herag No but its speculative and not critical to the question Ponzi or not
(DIR) Post #ACoxmPsal02epW4gim by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2021-10-28T10:53:21Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@herag side question: why is gold not a ponzi scheme?
(DIR) Post #ACoxtOwocVhXy0Nfv6 by herag@dobbs.town
2021-10-28T10:54:37Z
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@yukiameSee? Now I had not thought about that, that is true. I wonder though, is it worth the cost? Like not just the environmental cost. I have a pretty strong inclination to think that the environmental cost with dissipate with time and tech advancement.But the current model makes me wonder if it is a sustainable project with how expensive it is to spend bitcoin. Not only that, but to setup a lightning network is not exactly user friendly either.Any thoughts on that?
(DIR) Post #ACoxwIjECPmlXzPMjQ by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-10-28T10:55:08Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@herag Ponzis have a very clear definition: People are lied to about the value of the asset and their money is appropriated.A stablecoin where the issuer does not have the backing asset could be considered a ponzi, a native coin that floats with the market cannot.What I think you really want to ask is "why is bitcoin not a speculative asset", and the answer is that it is.Speculative bubbles are a huge issue but they are not the same as ponzi or pyramid schemes.
(DIR) Post #ACoy3Yo4or2vRL8alU by herag@dobbs.town
2021-10-28T10:56:27Z
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@wolf480plOh that's a good question. I think with gold, it is only necessary for the price to remain stable for it to be a good mode for value exchange. Maybe the same is true with bitcoin... I'm not sure.
(DIR) Post #ACoy4xkXZEuZ5Z9Upc by yukiame@noagendasocial.com
2021-10-28T10:56:43Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@herag Lightning Network is for Dealers or Merchants who have several 100s payments /day. the normal Users just uses a Lightning capable Wallet (Muun) which is very user friendly
(DIR) Post #ACoyQROcXOpR7J8naq by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2021-10-28T11:00:35Z
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@herag nobody's paying with gold though... it's more of a value store than value exchange means.
(DIR) Post #ACoyUuGj8E6Rp2ZuFM by Hyolobrika@counter.fedi.live
2021-10-28T11:01:22.994761Z
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@herag I'm not really pro-bitcoin (but I am in general pro-crypto) but I think people call it a Ponzi scheme because it is volatile.@icedquinn has an argument for why it will eventually become stable with use.
(DIR) Post #ACozDP6VqeHYCK1Cs4 by herag@dobbs.town
2021-10-28T11:09:26Z
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@cjdAh, so it is therefore not a good store of value then. So what should the money of 'the resistance' be? I have often wondered.... and I don't like instability at all... like the US dollar... that thing can eat my pants because it fluctuates so dang much.
(DIR) Post #ACozbylysrOPly8KS8 by likho@writing.exchange
2021-10-28T11:13:54Z
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@herag Here's a different perspective. Does the issuance algorithm of Bitcoin contribute to wealth inequities? (like a Ponzi schemes)The answer is yes. In theoretical economics, Bitcoin is considered temporally asymmetric b/c of the disparity between older & newer users. Block rewards decrease from whole numbers to what is currently dust. If Bitcoin had it's own economic zone (independent from fiat), it would have class of early adopters who hold most of the wealth over later adopters.(1/2)
(DIR) Post #ACozurChFXxLnddBWy by likho@writing.exchange
2021-10-28T11:17:19Z
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@herag Someone will point out that fiat currencies have a class of people who own most of the wealth. This is also true as fiat currency is also temporally asymmetric. Both Bitcoin and fiat are spatially and temporally asymmetric. There are many interpretations to draw from Bitcoin. Most commonly, that it is a great investment to get in early for. Less commonly: real world monetary policy contributes to wealth inequities independent of the question of "who owns the means of production".(2/2)
(DIR) Post #ACp0HSDWJe44xtn7p2 by feld@bikeshed.party
2021-10-28T11:20:37.716629Z
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@herag if Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme why hasn't the government intervened? Why is there an MIT course on it? Why are banks and everyone in the payments industry getting involved? Any investment into a ponzi by a publicly traded company is chum attracting major lawsuits for defrauding investors / violating fiduciary duty. Where are the lawsuits? Nobody suing Tesla or Square yet, for example? StrangeIs everyone being scammed or do they recognize something you don't?Or is it possible that something with every attribute of gold except lacking use as a commodity but has the ability to easily audit/verify reserves and can be effortlessly moved worldwide is a new asset class?In a ponzi you try to make money off the flood of new investor capital. In bitcoin you make money because bitcoin is undervalued and you understand that as currencies around the world inflate and fail the proper valuation of Bitcoin increases as a result of investors moving capital into an asset that cannot be diluted."Why not buy gold then?"Too hard to audit and move, and too difficult to mine.We've only been doing this experiment for 100 years. Up until WWI we had gold standard worldwide except China and India basically who used silver. (Never buy silver; they can mine it faster than anyone can buy it)So to fight WWI many countries suspended their gold standard and printed money as they were running out. After the war the damage to the economy would have been too great and made everyone poor essentially if they returned to the gold standard because so much was printed to fund the war effort. So instead they tried to carry on with fiat.Which created the economic conditions that led to WWII(Exchange rates used to be simply based on the grams of gold backing each unit/coin of currency, but after WWI they had to start making things up and inventing valuations of economies... another massive issue)I would still buy bitcoin today even if the price was $1M per coin. That's still undervalued.21,000,000 / ♾ (the entire world's money supply combined)
(DIR) Post #ACp0hoPOQmSLJtugBU by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-10-28T11:26:08Z
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@likho @herag This is to some extent true for gold as well though. The easy to find gold has already been found. Now you need to build deeper and more expensive mines in order to find more gold.Also, the current block reward is 6.25 Bitcoin. Hardly dust.
(DIR) Post #ACp1FfpsoJpoZtRyO8 by likho@writing.exchange
2021-10-28T11:32:17Z
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@jcbrand @herag I don't think gold-backed or gold-based currency is conducive to resolving wealth inequities. Bitcoin shares some of the same problems as traditional currencies because those were not problems it was designed nor aimed to solve.
(DIR) Post #ACp1Tlba9ni8WdTtRI by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-10-28T11:34:48Z
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@likho @herag Easy money (fiat) is debt based and creates a debt-spiral (as we're witnessing right now) that is unsustainable unless growth continuously outpaces growth in debt (which is no longer happening).This is environmentally unsustainable (infinite growth on finite planet and all that) and also incentivises unnecessary consumption because debt pulls consumption forward from the future to the present.This actually makes the current fiat system ponzi-like.
(DIR) Post #ACp1cSVsVgPdv1xRse by dhfir@expired.mentality.rip
2021-10-28T11:36:24.804494Z
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@herag @yukiame ehh?With cheaper power+better computing, all that changes is the amount required to make a profit.Block difficulty is constantly adjusted to ensure they are solved at a consistent rate, and as such, more cheaper power+computing means more resources used by miners means more difficult blocks means approximately equal consumption of power.I think I did not phrase this well?But it's the best I got.
(DIR) Post #ACp1eSroALdJaxAiHI by likho@writing.exchange
2021-10-28T11:36:46Z
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@jcbrand @herag The more precise terminology is temporal and spatial asymmetry. As I mentioned in (1/2), Bitcoin and fiat both fall under these categories.
(DIR) Post #ACp1h4QnTQHgg5mQfQ by likho@writing.exchange
2021-10-28T11:37:14Z
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@jcbrand @herag The more precise terminology is temporal and spatial asymmetry. As I mentioned in (2/2), Bitcoin and fiat both fall under these categories.
(DIR) Post #ACp1n9h8ogMgjxKIz2 by Zergling_man@birds.garden
2021-10-28T11:31:25.742812Z
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@likho @herag https://worldcoin.orgAlso, https://nano.org but it's not really a solution to that. It's just a cooler crypto.
(DIR) Post #ACp1nAKUSNqAhzjjJg by likho@writing.exchange
2021-10-28T11:38:19Z
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@Zergling_man @herag I use Ğ1 as it's closer to the economic theory and already has an active marketplace.#monnaielibre
(DIR) Post #ACp1qH1i0uUiLdQxKy by feld@bikeshed.party
2021-10-28T11:38:54.001689Z
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@herag US and UK came out of WWI with the only two currencies that weren't severely damaged. I don't know the timeline of UK's move away from gold/silver off the top of my head. The US seized gold in the 30s, and after WWII we strong armed everyone into making the $ the global reserve currency instead of creating a new global reserve currency like the IMF / World Bank people wantedAnd then the US dropped the gold standard in 71 so we could print money for VietnamAnd now we have countries all over the world that are both officially and unofficially dollarized and will suffer greatly from the US printing trillions of dollars because none of that will ever reach their citizens; it just makes them poorer.They have few choices: try to make their own currency again, use someone else's and pray this doesn't happen again, or switch to Bitcoin as the reserve
(DIR) Post #ACp1tXONcgebyRauie by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-10-28T11:39:27Z
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@likho @herag A lot of the inequality in the current system is due to money printing by central banks, the Cantillon effect and the fact that financial assets are unnaturally inflated through central bank interventionism.This would not happen in an economy based on sound money (e.g. gold or bitcoin backed).Some inequality will always exist in a free society, but the current situation is made much, much worse by the central banking fiat system.
(DIR) Post #ACp2KYK2H1R0g1Razo by naruciakk@kawen.space
2021-10-28T11:44:22.130289Z
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@herag >why is bitcoin not a ponzi scheme?Why do you ask people to prove the negative?
(DIR) Post #ACp2KtLA81oVrb8IAS by onan@dobbs.town
2021-10-28T11:44:23Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@herag If a Bitcoin were worth one million dollars, or worth one dollar, it is a currency that is not generated by any government. That single attribute makes it interesting.Governments may be competent or not competent at what a person thinks they should do (and what a person thinks governments should do is not always agreed upon). But when a social function that had been considered the monopoly of some government is found to not require any government, I find that interesting.
(DIR) Post #ACp2M3epFsK89Qt0oS by herag@dobbs.town
2021-10-28T11:44:38Z
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@likhoWhat I want to know is, why didn't I ask this question before. Now I have a book's worth of knowledge to read. HahaWhen I have time(just started work) I will respond.
(DIR) Post #ACp2PVSULdbtF8lBIG by likho@writing.exchange
2021-10-28T11:45:15Z
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@jcbrand @herag Commodity-based currencies (precious metal backed, bitcoin) have been tried in the past and have a different set of problems. I'm willing to try temporally and spatially symmetric currency IMO because each relative unit is a representation of time and every member of an economic zone ideally has a fair chance of co-producing the currency.#monnaielibre
(DIR) Post #ACp2RIdeyzV63vqAcK by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-10-28T11:10:15Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@herag When a ponzi scheme runs out of money, the lie is exposed and the price of the asset instantly collapses to zero, often causing people to lose everything. This is why ponzi schemes are Very Illegal.Contrast, when a cryptocurrency "runs out of money" (heh) the price goes down until someone considers it a good buy and it settles out. Cryptocurrencies are susceptible to bubbles, but (except in the case of e.g. unbacked stablecoins) they have an entirely different risk profile than ponzi.
(DIR) Post #ACp2Txk58Dg47d782C by feld@bikeshed.party
2021-10-28T11:46:04.481447Z
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@herag "Why bitcoin? Why not some other coin?"Some others like ETH will thrive but BTC has the largest / most distributed infrastructure and proven reliability.Smart contracts are amazing financial tools but I don't think they're appropriate for a reserve currency. Smart contracts being hacked erodes trust with nontechnical users and the possibility of (temporarily) breaking/halting the chain with malicious contract code is too risky in my opinion.Hope that makes sense
(DIR) Post #ACp2VMH1PV7sUhBeJk by herag@dobbs.town
2021-10-28T11:46:17Z
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@onanOh that is a very good argument I think. That is what has been lurking behind my mind's eye for a while... this is something I must think about as well. If I had known I would get so many responses to, I would have waited until after work to post it.
(DIR) Post #ACp2i23NtnFFY0qrBY by likho@writing.exchange
2021-10-28T11:48:36Z
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@herag I think "Ponzi scheme" and Bitcoin get discussed too often, but it frames the discussion in a narrow way that people are too used to.But here's a real book on the economic theory I based my answers on:https://en.trm.creationmonetaire.info/index.html#monnaielibre
(DIR) Post #ACp3TGvARK25GiX9Wa by yukiame@noagendasocial.com
2021-10-28T11:42:24Z
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@dhfir @herag Nopower is more expensiveMiners don't stop when they reach Profitmore hashing Power is better securityDifff is adjusted every 14d and it is done to keep the Block time at ca 10min and also to react to suddenly increase in hashing power aka quantum computing etcthe Adj has nothing to do with the consumption of Powerand is done automagically by the Network and the CEO (joke) can't manipulate this.The Network does not care how much power it consumes
(DIR) Post #ACp3THTYNTXQzMcc7c by dhfir@expired.mentality.rip
2021-10-28T11:57:08.047180Z
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@yukiame @herag miners do, however, stop when they cannot make profit(see how countries with higher electric costs have few miners-it's not profitable)More hashing power requires more computational power. More computational power requires more electrical power.I mentioned the changing Difff-it's part of my argument.And a network that does not care how much power it consumes will consume as much as possible/required.The more power is available, the more will be used, with costs continuing to rise regardless.And the environmental impact?Not looking good.
(DIR) Post #ACp3aMMIcZa89zbWGO by likho@writing.exchange
2021-10-28T11:58:26Z
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@herag I think "Ponzi scheme" and Bitcoin are discussed too often, and it frames the discussion in a narrow way that people are too used to.But here's a real book on the economic theory I based my answers on:https://en.trm.creationmonetaire.info/index.html#monnaielibre
(DIR) Post #ACp3io2ZaJ9cKYPAGW by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-10-28T11:59:55Z
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@likho @herag Sounds like a perpetually inflating money supply in order to create new units for new entrants.People should be earning money by providing valuable goods and services that others are willing to pay for, not producing new monetary units from nothing since by doing that they're effectively stealing buying power from everyone else (rich and poor alike).Bitcoin miners provide a service, which is maintaining and securing the distributed ledger.
(DIR) Post #ACp4IcW5uJqz0zI5Ue by yukiame@noagendasocial.com
2021-10-28T12:00:38Z
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@dhfir @herag you got it now.eth2 moves to Prove of Stake which eliminates this frivolous consumption and scales better with also hopefully fewer fees
(DIR) Post #ACp4Id3lt6nAhR2yzA by dhfir@expired.mentality.rip
2021-10-28T12:06:24.366118Z
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@yukiame @herag that was my understanding from the start?I'm aware I didn't phrase it great and was missing some vocab, but I already knew this.
(DIR) Post #ACp5S31Opdw1mLzc36 by Pross988@iddqd.social
2021-10-28T12:19:15.258458Z
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@herag it's less of a ponzi scheme and more of a put against the dollar.
(DIR) Post #ACp5i5e4qPUUY9jXKy by likho@writing.exchange
2021-10-28T12:22:14Z
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@jcbrand @herag Ğ1 has a relative unit and an atomic unit. The phenomenon and problems associated with inflation do not apply because of the relative unit.(1/2)
(DIR) Post #ACp5kyVlpCClIEDvk0 by likho@writing.exchange
2021-10-28T12:22:45Z
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@jcbrand @herag "People should be earning money by providing valuable goods and services that others are willing to pay for, not producing new monetary units from nothing..."You applied the wrong concept to the wrong context. But people exchange goods and services with Ğ1 on https://www.gchange.fr/Most of the Bitcoin earned was in its early years either mining, clicking a faucet when you could get 5 BTC every 24 hours on an adless site; and now speculating. (2/2)
(DIR) Post #ACp5lu0a3JibcI4qB6 by likho@writing.exchange
2021-10-28T12:22:56Z
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@jcbrand @herag Ğ1 operators fulfill a similar function within a fraction of the energy cost.(3/3)
(DIR) Post #ACp69NV2ZRcRk6WDA0 by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-10-28T12:27:08Z
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@herag Ok so that's a different question entirely, and I think it's one that every person has to answer for themselves.For me, an '87 baby in America, the events which formed my opinion of government were Waco, Serbia, 911, Afghanistan, Iraq, torture, and 2008. So for me, Bitcoin was a store of value that Doesn't Do That Shit.
(DIR) Post #ACp8WgxAblmye6v8U4 by yukiame@noagendasocial.com
2021-10-28T12:08:42Z
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@dhfir @herag nah you made too many logical mistakes
(DIR) Post #ACp8WhQaqNKC7MgdLU by dhfir@expired.mentality.rip
2021-10-28T12:53:47.215580Z
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@yukiame @herag as already stated, I am aware that the text I typed is a mess.But like.My perspective has not changed, I just took a bit to put it in sane people language.
(DIR) Post #ACpAvs1ulMB69BH1Si by herag@dobbs.town
2021-10-28T13:20:43Z
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@cjdYou and me both. I'm an '88 baby. I think of every 'store of value' Monero is my favorite. But I am not one to jump on a bandwagon easily. I would like to stop contributing my taxes to all of the things you mentioned... that is the main appeal of cryptocurrency to me. But I think I am a young Padawan that has a lot to learn.
(DIR) Post #ACpCAcXejGgkPSiYVs by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-10-28T13:34:35Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@herag I like Monero, the team are some very awesome people and AFAICT they are totally in it for the right reasons.I have some misgivings about the technology. I mean privacy at a typical household scale is absolutely necessary, but privacy in a sense of tax havens, anonymous shell companies and human trafficking, this is a major problem. And privacy coins don't make the difference.
(DIR) Post #ACpEnDYFmC7W6bWsXQ by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-10-28T14:03:59Z
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@likho @herag I don't see anything on that site about how this currency actually works.
(DIR) Post #ACpFA5cXQg6AAWRK5I by feld@bikeshed.party
2021-10-28T14:08:09.024404Z
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@cjd @herag > privacy in a sense of tax havens, anonymous shell companies and human trafficking, this is a major problemCrypto won't be the catalyst to make this worse though. It's already a very well oiled machine using existing currencies and payment methods. You'd have to argue against all cash, essentially.
(DIR) Post #ACpFbH1z76ePNOIwBU by likho@writing.exchange
2021-10-28T14:13:03Z
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@jcbrand @herag That would kind of be like going to Amazon to see how the US dollar works. If you want to read the theory behind Ğ1, it's in Théorie Relative de la Monnaie by Stéphane Laborde. English translation:https://en.trm.creationmonetaire.info/index.html#monnaielibre
(DIR) Post #ACpIhHiRmPlV6Hiw3k by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-28T14:47:44.106081Z
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@thor @herag Though not a bitcoin maximalist, I'm pretty pro-bitcoin, and it is a ponzi scheme. But so is the US dollar, at the end of the day. Successful bubbles are called currencies. So "why #1" is : it is a ponzi scheme and the benefits of keeping it around outweigh the costs (in providing an alternative to closed remittance systems, central banks and their corruption, paypal and its jankiness, etc) outweigh the downside that one day, entropy will win and your keys will be useless trinkets worth about as much as an ancient greek obulii (pictured below). Once upon a time what you see below could have got you a few nights high with a hooker. Today it's scrap metal that is fit for the junk pile, at best."Why #2" is that, while yes, it has virtually all the properties of a ponzi scheme...but the length from beginning to end can be functionally infinite and can include the facilitation of otherwise very difficult trade across interestellar distances - imho #interstellartrade ledgers will be blockchains of some kind - perhaps bitcoin itself will only ever be used on earth, but it's sidechains *won't*. So if you start with a ponzi scheme, and as a currency extend it far into the future....if it's "counterintuitive" enough, and difficult to pull an exit enough...people just won't bother, and it'll continue to go for long, long periods of time. Maybe it'll collapse tomorrow. Maybe in 2100/2200/3000/etc when we have a big fight over minting new coins again. But so far it hasn't, and a lot of us are betting really good money that it won't."Why #3" is that yes, it is a ponzi scheme. But that it's a means of facilitating trade *as* a ponzi scheme in a way that is not just globally and locally useful but useful *in a new way* that until bitcoin we didn't even have a word for. It is useful for things like analyzing the true cost of energy (by tying the value of energy directly to the value of computation), something that now that *that's* out of the bottle, is not going back in - but even that is minor in comparison to the value of human interactions that are now possible in this new, albiet ponzi way. Economics has yet to learn about this aspect fully imho, though Graeber's Debt: the first 5000 years hinted at it: there's a level of commitment that you need to do to enable complex trade and complex institutions - in a sense, double entry accounting is a bit of a 'scam' from the perspective of those who run institutions - as eventually their cut goes away. Until the invention of double entry accounting you would run a business for personal profit, and little ancilliary benefits that accrued to you and your family were just sort of an expected benefit of doing business. Post double entry accounting it became feasible, and thinkable that you could run something like a nonprofit/NGO. It was *implicit* in the idea of a double-entry system but it must have taken a few generations for someone try and successfully make the first one work. Similarly, depending from *who's* perspective - bitcoin might also remove value from you and your interaction with some blockchain enabled systems, because of similar reasons. If you're a RIAA gatekeeper, you should be afraid of artists being paid directly in cryptocurrencies like bitcoin, because it means eventually the whole of the music world will run on DAOs without you. But, really, there's a lot more gatekeepers than that who should be so afraid. And that's a good thing.
(DIR) Post #ACpJvfBZPtVztmlYKu by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-10-28T15:01:32Z
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@likho @herag I'm more interested in how it's implemented than the theory behind it.No need to read up on Austrian economics to read and understand the Bitcoin whitepaper, which is also quite short.
(DIR) Post #ACpNt9XoUElV0EEE4W by Moon@shitposter.club
2021-10-28T15:45:55.834760Z
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@jeffcliff @herag @thor it's not a ponzi scheme.
(DIR) Post #ACpNxl76kNL6gDvw9Y by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-28T15:46:46.392894Z
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@herag @thor [1] https://www.facebook.com/jeff.cliff/posts/10151256019087909
(DIR) Post #ACpO44rOF7gbezav4q by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-28T15:47:54.893579Z
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@Moon @herag @thor obuluses (obulii?) are a ponzi scheme. in the beginning, you had women who were getting dicked for them. and in the end they were holding worthless scrap metal
(DIR) Post #ACpO8xigDbkwxiqk4G by Moon@shitposter.club
2021-10-28T15:48:47.351674Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@jeffcliff @herag @thor the feature of a ponzi scheme is that people have to be putting money in for current "investors" to take a profit, that doesn't describe bitcoin at all.
(DIR) Post #ACpOPBhO0oT8x1yuie by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-28T15:51:43.819948Z
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@Moon @herag @thor it was certainly true in the beginning. And there's going to be a need for someone to pay certain costs going forward, which can be interpreted as people putting money in. The incentives are pretty damn balanced (ie mining fees vs value etc) but not perfectly so.
(DIR) Post #ACpOz2czDOojF81HzU by smithy@shitposter.club
2021-10-28T15:58:12.591316Z
5 likes, 2 repeats
@Moon @jeffcliff @herag @thor my problem with much of the bitcoin & crypto community is that they argue one should invest in crypto on the grounds that it's the currency of the future - but I feel very few people in the community are actively working towards pushing its adoption as an actual substitute currency (e.g. better second layer solutions, vendor adoption, etc.) & the overwhelming bulk are just content to treat it as an asset. So, definitely not a ponzi scheme imo, but hyped-up for the wrong reasons.
(DIR) Post #ACpP3gEpt0cjFcw4Ke by Moon@shitposter.club
2021-10-28T15:59:02.350848Z
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@smithy @herag @jeffcliff @thor I'm fine with criticism I just don't think it's an actual scam.
(DIR) Post #ACpP4G94NvOycAVyLI by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-28T15:59:09.140647Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@smithy @Moon @herag @thor that's fairbut I amI ask literally every single business I deal with to accept it, and will actively go out of my way to use a vendor who uses it over its competition if available
(DIR) Post #ACpPHGe7pl9dvtF9eK by smithy@shitposter.club
2021-10-28T16:01:30.102057Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@Moon @herag @jeffcliff @thor I agree - in fact I think crypto & other blockchain shit has tons of potential in driving the future economy - if it's a "scam," then so is any other run-of-the-mill stock lots of hyped-up folks buy into
(DIR) Post #ACpPOhZo6ccPTzliQC by smithy@shitposter.club
2021-10-28T16:02:50.831362Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@jeffcliff @Moon @herag @thor nice - wish that was the case for more crypto enthusiasts
(DIR) Post #ACpPfnHi8Vyc6pSENc by thor@pl.thj.no
2021-10-28T16:05:55.426726Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@smithy @jeffcliff @Moon @herag i don’t remember joining the thread but it is down my alley. like others, i’ve dabbled in crypto for speculation. but if you look away from stupid expensive Bitcoin and Ethereum, there’s this modern transaction infrastructure there. you can move money quickly and cheaply without banks. and it works, and due to all the speculators, it’s really easy to convert to/from fiat. i’m in Norway and if i cash out on Coinbase, an American company, i have the money in my bank account the same day, which is rather impressive, seeing as there are Norwegian businesses that don’t execute that fast on a bank transfer.
(DIR) Post #ACpPn9Aj9rL01Dh5ns by Ivan_Ivanovich@poa.st
2021-10-28T16:07:15.585858Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@smithy @Moon @herag @jeffcliff @thor I agreeI'm in it for the money, so it's an investment, I don't even think money should be digital
(DIR) Post #ACpPqAZgOrPbEloAAC by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-28T16:07:48.657493Z
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@thor @smithy @Moon @herag you RT'd it on your feed that's how i found it
(DIR) Post #ACpPs67Tvy9i03XKro by thor@pl.thj.no
2021-10-28T16:08:08.004925Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Ivan_Ivanovich @smithy @Moon @herag @jeffcliff so you hate creatives who want to make a living on the Internet, gotcha
(DIR) Post #ACpPw5zwKPTomTuoXg by thor@pl.thj.no
2021-10-28T16:08:52.872053Z
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@Ivan_Ivanovich @Moon @herag @jeffcliff @smithy come to think of it, you can’t be serious. it’s already digital. crypto just means decentralising it.
(DIR) Post #ACpPxDzg5MrZrwKaqu by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-28T16:09:04.473196Z
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@thor @Ivan_Ivanovich @Moon @herag @smithy not to mention boring, uncreative people who want to do the dumb gruntwork on the internet that has to happen or the whole thing collapses
(DIR) Post #ACpPznb4gWFgry3CiW by thor@pl.thj.no
2021-10-28T16:09:32.974853Z
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@Ivan_Ivanovich @Moon @herag @jeffcliff @smithy you ask for a mortgage and the clerk punches some keys and creates “money” from thin air. that’s how the system works as per today.
(DIR) Post #ACpQ1pzujKzKtUdovY by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-28T16:09:55.201704Z
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@thor @Ivan_Ivanovich @Moon @herag @smithy he's on poa.st, he might be serious.there's definitely a class of anti-tech people who would go back to using gold and/or trading sea shells or round rocks or whatever and be perfectly happy with that
(DIR) Post #ACpQ6ivSS0SePPt2Y4 by thor@pl.thj.no
2021-10-28T16:10:47.095273Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Ivan_Ivanovich @Moon @herag @jeffcliff @smithy it’s rather incredible how defensive people are of the fiat system.
(DIR) Post #ACpQ7J0KJNkKIwRR8S by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-28T16:10:54.405578Z
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@thor @Ivan_Ivanovich @Moon @herag @smithy or, they say "you're the wrong kind of person to give a mortgage to, sorry can't help you"incidentally that's the reason I'm in bitcoin - to buy a house outside of the system
(DIR) Post #ACpQ8YgrTcWRF9vzcm by thor@pl.thj.no
2021-10-28T16:11:07.861049Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Ivan_Ivanovich @Moon @herag @jeffcliff @smithy crypto is constantly being smeared
(DIR) Post #ACpQFfvIz16thf5Frc by thor@pl.thj.no
2021-10-28T16:12:24.494256Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Ivan_Ivanovich @Moon @herag @jeffcliff @smithy you know, i bet people were extremely skeptical of bank notes at first toowait… you are giving me an IOU instead of real gold? :gofy:
(DIR) Post #ACpQbGkdFlBQ0JO8cy by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-28T16:16:19.389307Z
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@thor @Ivan_Ivanovich @Moon @herag @smithy there's still to this day people running around who aren't aware the US ever left the gold standard and are utterly shocked when you tell them this
(DIR) Post #ACpQoeFpBFiAf7MFqC by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-10-28T16:13:33Z
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@feld @herag I am.
(DIR) Post #ACpQoenr8ivwMfHQsy by feld@bikeshed.party
2021-10-28T16:18:41.816232Z
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@cjd @herag so you want human identities associated with every financial transaction?
(DIR) Post #ACpQz1znlTY3BuoYHA by smithy@shitposter.club
2021-10-28T16:20:37.052935Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Ivan_Ivanovich @Moon @herag @jeffcliff @thor Gotcha, so what's your reason for investing in it then? If it's not for the fundamentals or potential future use, then is it simply because you think its value will rise (on the basis of other people investing in it who think it'll be a future currency, etc.)?
(DIR) Post #ACpR4PMgJ4iF7J51fc by mrsaturday@shitposter.club
2021-10-28T16:21:35.269584Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@smithy @jeffcliff @Moon @herag @thor There's honestly zero reason for any e-commerce outlet to not take crypto
(DIR) Post #ACpREzRJ2MCBtcHyxE by smithy@shitposter.club
2021-10-28T16:23:29.749634Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mrsaturday @Moon @herag @jeffcliff @thor if the value of crypto fluctuates more than the value of the good you're trying to sell/buy, that seems like a pretty good reason to not accept it - this is why I think the whole culture of treating crypto as an asset is (in some ways) hindering its goal of becoming a currency
(DIR) Post #ACpRN61qQDhceJFFbM by thor@pl.thj.no
2021-10-28T16:24:57.745199Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@smithy @mrsaturday @Moon @herag @jeffcliff forex is a thing, but i get what you mean too
(DIR) Post #ACpRRz0DyLRaJ1ojdw by thor@pl.thj.no
2021-10-28T16:25:50.920669Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@smithy @Moon @herag @jeffcliff @mrsaturday this is about PR. crypto has the reputation of being the shady cousin of wall street currently, and wall street is flirting with his cous… wait, that came out wrong
(DIR) Post #ACpRVg3gLfHGi4CEKG by mrsaturday@shitposter.club
2021-10-28T16:26:31.050466Z
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@smithy @Moon @herag @jeffcliff @thor That and Silk Road taking off gave it a reputation of being the purview of junkies and crooks
(DIR) Post #ACpRbUctlVLwzXRRCK by thor@pl.thj.no
2021-10-28T16:27:34.042755Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mrsaturday @smithy @Moon @herag @jeffcliff the line between that and “legit” wall street is very thin
(DIR) Post #ACpRdOAcjuqjY17WVc by thor@pl.thj.no
2021-10-28T16:27:54.625410Z
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@mrsaturday @Moon @herag @jeffcliff @smithy speculation and drugs, i mean
(DIR) Post #ACpXUywQuQcANWgUHQ by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-10-28T17:28:33Z
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@feld @herag Actually, I'm not against cash, cash has a brilliant feature that when the amounts start to become big, it becomes really annoying to carry around. Shady banks will deal in arbitrary amounts of money no questions.
(DIR) Post #ACq0s5cBA3xuPGa6uO by likho@writing.exchange
2021-10-28T23:02:44Z
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@jcbrand @herag You can probably find it under "Duniter whitepaper" as Duniter is the software, but it might be written in French.
(DIR) Post #ACrPzQfitbY7txH1vc by girala@mastodon.social
2021-10-29T15:18:51Z
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@likho @jcbrand @herag And there is also https://girala.net/en , a new alternative to #Gchange localizated to #English, #Italiano, #Portuguese #Occità #Euskera #Asturiano #Castellano #Català #serbian Check it and spread the word 🙂
(DIR) Post #ACsHV2tw6bVP0zsnI0 by Hyolobrika@counter.fedi.live
2021-10-30T01:16:51.221467Z
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@Zergling_man @herag @likho Looks cool, but how can we trust whoever makes the Orbs? It appears to be a for-profit corporation, which does not inspire confidence ( https://worldcoin.org/tos : “Your agreement is with Tools for Humanity Corporation, a Delaware corporation (“Worldcoin”, “we” or “us”).” )Also in the ToS:WHEN YOU AGREE TO THESE TERMS YOU ARE AGREEING (WITH LIMITED EXCEPTIONS) TO RESOLVE ANY DISPUTES BETWEEN YOU AND WORLDCOIN THROUGH BINDING, INDIVIDUAL ARBITRATION RATHER THAN IN COURT. PLEASE REVIEW CAREFULLY THE SECTION TITLED “DISPUTE RESOLUTION; ARBITRATION AND WAIVER OF CLASS ACTION” FOR DETAILS.
(DIR) Post #ACsM31Jwt5oNmAVPwe by thor@pl.thj.no
2021-10-30T02:09:25.983069Z
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@smithy @Moon @herag @jeffcliff it would have never been on everyone’s lips if nobody hyped it. humans are broken like this.
(DIR) Post #ACsMKGpoSbTsoYdSWe by thor@pl.thj.no
2021-10-30T02:12:32.781010Z
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@smithy @Moon @herag @jeffcliff i heard of Bitcoin while Bitcoin was still at a low value and i was like “oh this is cute but it’ll never catch on” but then somebody managed to put a spin on it
(DIR) Post #ACsMOE8kQ9CZcENXYO by thor@pl.thj.no
2021-10-30T02:13:16.795446Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Moon @herag @jeffcliff @smithy i have boomers asking me about Bitcoin now
(DIR) Post #ACsMSE08sXfwLMGAZU by thor@pl.thj.no
2021-10-30T02:14:00.086376Z
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@Moon @herag @jeffcliff @smithy yes, it’s for the wrong reasons, but the right reasons for most people to care don’t existmost people aren’t upset with using a bank
(DIR) Post #ACsMX7xUlyBp3BMLeS by thor@pl.thj.no
2021-10-30T02:14:53.262250Z
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@Moon @herag @jeffcliff @smithy maybe they should be but they aren’t.
(DIR) Post #ACsMb1uLDBSVRTkFKi by thor@pl.thj.no
2021-10-30T02:15:35.579467Z
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@Moon @herag @jeffcliff @smithy that message is too hard to explain in a paragraph
(DIR) Post #ACsMeJ4Hrl29X6xYWG by thor@pl.thj.no
2021-10-30T02:16:11.115716Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Moon @herag @jeffcliff @smithy “see, in the 70s, Nixon…” see it doesn’t work, it’s too long-winded.
(DIR) Post #ACsNF1LKjL1pH4RJ4q by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-30T02:22:49.446212Z
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@thor @Moon @herag @smithy that wasn't true in living memory. My great grandma's generation *was* upset with banks, generally. And their children remembered.there's just been a couple of generations of brainwashed people since.
(DIR) Post #ACsNiYkpaSN9INS1Wi by Hyolobrika@counter.fedi.live
2021-10-30T02:26:31.752393Z
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@thor @herag @Moon @jeffcliff @smithy people don't recognise that they exist != they don't exist
(DIR) Post #ACsNvEa1uClAUURUoa by thor@pl.thj.no
2021-10-30T02:30:25.970984Z
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@Hyolobrika @Moon @herag @jeffcliff @smithy let me rewordthe specific reasons that would make people care don’t exist
(DIR) Post #ACupz9lAxGlbjSEavo by matograine@mastodon.zaclys.com
2021-10-31T06:53:59Z
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@jcbrand @likho @herag The closest thing we have to a whitepaper is a serie of articles that I compiled and enhanced a bit here :https://git.duniter.org/api/v4/projects/353/packages/generic/duniter-whitepaper/0.0.4/whitepaper_en_v0.0.4.pdfIt is still unfinished (an academic contributor should have reviewed it...). But most information is there.However, the monetary theory behind libre currency is much more relevant than Duniters implementation. You should get the big picture before looking into details.
(DIR) Post #ACuqeMSkdBAJ0CGSR6 by matograine@mastodon.zaclys.com
2021-10-31T07:01:32Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@jcbrand @likho @herag The closest thing we have to a whitepaper is a serie of articles that I compiled and enhanced a bit here :https://git.duniter.org/api/v4/projects/353/packages/generic/duniter-whitepaper/0.0.4/whitepaper_en_v0.0.4.pdfIt is still unfinished (an academic contributor should have reviewed it...). But most information is there.However, the monetary theory behind libre currency is much more relevant than Duniters implementation. You should get the big picture before looking into details.#duniter #monnaielibre #librecurrency #cryptocurrency #basicincome
(DIR) Post #ACv9VgGjWMawx8DXwu by herag@dobbs.town
2021-10-31T10:32:58Z
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@snowNot gonna lie, I also had bitcoin and crypto muted for a long time.I own some bitcoin though, and I would at least like to learn a little more about it. I have it specifically for purchasing certain things and donating to certain causes that I would prefer not be tied directly to me.
(DIR) Post #ADjm8RF0qR19gm7zJg by raucao@kosmos.social
2021-11-24T20:41:25Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@likho @herag The amount of addresses sharing the majority of coins has been steadily *increasing* over time.
(DIR) Post #ADjmJ1t5RurCF1vFr6 by raucao@kosmos.social
2021-11-24T20:42:59Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@likho @herag (the ones that most chain analysis guesses think are not single holders)