Post ACtpb2JMnotOWTlXJA by yogthos@mastodon.social
 (DIR) More posts by yogthos@mastodon.social
 (DIR) Post #ACtpb2JMnotOWTlXJA by yogthos@mastodon.social
       2021-10-30T16:27:14Z
       
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       It’s clear capitalism isn’t working when US politicians try to bring back child labor https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/30/capitalism-isnt-working-us-politicians-child-labor
       
 (DIR) Post #ACtpb2qgnvY0BpM9FQ by asparagi@hax0rbana.social
       2021-10-30T17:15:15Z
       
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       @yogthos Hearing your viewpoint on capitalism is helping me see its numerous flaws more clearly.  And, I definitely want workers, "unskilled" or not, to be paid a living wage.But, I have a different perspective on laws affecting children.  I did several things earlier than is the custom in the US, including going to college, working while in college, and renting an apartment.  For years, my choices were unduly constrained by laws intended to protect me.
       
 (DIR) Post #ACtpb3VSMM9oEGQhn6 by asparagi@hax0rbana.social
       2021-10-30T17:27:09Z
       
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       @yogthos Age discrimination against the young is clearly legal, and frequently mandated, here in the US.  It seems like a key criticism of capitalism is that as workers, we inherently cannot control our own lives.  We currently consider people to be "children" until they are 18, sometimes even 21 (e.g. benefits at my first job).  Prior to that age, controlling one's own life is even more difficult than it is for older people, but it is equally essential in my opinion.
       
 (DIR) Post #ACtpb43UJpNZvoLsps by yogthos@mastodon.social
       2021-10-30T17:36:22Z
       
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       @asparagi I completely agree with treating young people like adults and providing them opportunity for growth.The problem isn't really with allowing children to do useful work or learn skills, but with forcing children into work. The scenario here is that employers want to use child labor instead of paying higher wages and benefits to adult workers.
       
 (DIR) Post #ACtripoPMHmtyw8Cbw by velartrill@social.ignis.link
       2021-10-30T19:39:03.937153Z
       
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       @yogthos @asparagi something important to keep in mind is that teenage brains are not like ours: they're still in the "programming mode" where they're uncritically absorbing the cultural values and norms that they will later treat as axioms throughout their lives, especially if they are not unusually critically-minded. so it's important to limit both who and what children & adolescents are exposed to, and i'm deeply worried about the implications of introducing them straight into the (sick and alienating) capitalist workforce at that particular age, the kind of things they will internalize based on how their bosses will almost inevitably abuse them and how customers will (mis)treat them. adults generally see bosses as hierarchical superiors to be dealt with and/or enemies to be outmaneuvred, kids may very well come to see them as surrogate parents, even if they are badly treated. i think anyone who cares about child welfare should be horrified by that possibility.i agree with giving young people opportunities for growth ofc, that's super important, but treating them like adults is naive/irresponsible parenting at best and active abusive sabotage at worst, and much of this "kids can be as mature as adults" (they cannot, this is groomer talk) ideology comes from people who whether out of pure ideolmogy, sexual perversion, or simple greed want to be able to unduly influence minors. e.g. if parents had just done a better job of raising their kids and not sent them off to ideologue-infested universities at a highly vulnerable period in their lives, the US's biggest cultural crisis right now (the huge, tribalist split between groups that are totally disconnected from reality) probably could not have happened, or at least not gotten so bad. i've been to US universities and even way back when i was there almost a decade ago, there was already an established culture of trying to usurp parental authority for moral education and i saw many kids turned against their families by this environment. (i was too to some degree, altho my parents were genuinely abusive, so it's more complicated in my case.)i think the best way to help kids acquire useful skills (if mom or dad can't teach them for whatever reason) is apprenticeships. they're a much less horrible, abusive, and much more effective system than school, especially for the actually productive trades like farming or metalworking, and they expose kids to less questionable influences -- the parents can be directly involved in vetting who the kid will come into contact with, can rely on a trusted neighbor or family friend (in connected, high-trust societies anyway) who they know is passionate about their work and has good values, and can generally be confident that their kid won't be brainwashed or abused. it also means that instead of a parasite managerial-class boss they'll have a most likely working-class master, whose class interests do not include extracting the maximum amount of labor from his apprentice, or sabotaging the apprentice to improve his own "job security."and ofc it's also just generally a good way to help build trust and strong ties among a community.