Post ACQyP4fVdRNNeHjSRU by Seirdy@pleroma.envs.net
(DIR) More posts by Seirdy@pleroma.envs.net
(DIR) Post #ACPke99jdjfTOUCeTQ by humanetech@mastodon.social
2021-10-16T06:51:35Z
2 likes, 4 repeats
Fedizens of the #Fediverse ..I want to attract attention to the #weblite hashtag, as something important is happening!@alexandra and @alcinnz have kicked of a great initiative to finally address the #BloatedWeb and bring it back to its essence.Existing standards bodies like #WhatWG #W3C #IETF have lost their way. Long-lasting #BigTech influence has led to #web #specs that serve current #browser monopolists only.A better alternative is now emerging on #Codeberg ..https://codeberg.org/weblite
(DIR) Post #ACPke9jXUcJ9BWxFHU by person@fosstodon.org
2021-10-16T06:58:25Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@humanetech I hope this doesn't end up similar to gemini, I love gemini but it's not built for the same thing web is.
(DIR) Post #ACPl2OAlSaY0uvFCFM by humanetech@mastodon.social
2021-10-16T07:02:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@person It is good that you mention this. Probably something to clearly distinguish early onI have my thoughts, but I think @alexandra and @alcinnz are best to give some insight related to the early vision for #weblite vs #gemini positioning.
(DIR) Post #ACPrPSAJNg5jgZPhA0 by person@fosstodon.org
2021-10-16T08:14:12Z
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@humanetech I think best way to differentiate them is the Weblite is web debloated while gemini is it's absolute essence. Both have their place. gemini is so simple that one person can implement and maintain a browser without much difficulty. weblite will probably still be w bit demanding but also smaller enough where smaller communities can maintain in house browsers for it.
(DIR) Post #ACPrUWdECbnMzBMDpI by person@fosstodon.org
2021-10-16T08:15:05Z
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@humanetech I think best way to differentiate them would be that weblite is web debloated while gemini is it's absolute essence. Both have their place. gemini is so simple that one person can implement and maintain a browser without much difficulty. weblite will probably still be a bit demanding but also smaller enough where smaller communities can maintain in house browsers for it.
(DIR) Post #ACQDIFk1NAsk7M5WF6 by amirouche@floss.social
2021-10-16T07:05:24Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@humanetech @person @alexandra @alcinnz It is missing some rationale and guidelines (sort of like a manifesto) to help contribution and rationalizating choices (and how it is different from #gemini).Is there an existing conversation rationalizing #SansScript ?
(DIR) Post #ACQDIGGdPuyBkVLZ4q by yaaps@banana.dog
2021-10-16T11:32:51Z
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@amirouche @humanetech @person @alexandra @alcinnz This is a good question that looks as though it's in danger of being overlooked. I'm far enough from both efforts to have perspective1/5
(DIR) Post #ACQDIGp1M4TXT9R1fs by yaaps@banana.dog
2021-10-16T11:33:57Z
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@amirouche @humanetech @person @alexandra @alcinnz Application layer - Gemini has its replacement for Gopher that's similar to HTTP, but there's only one header line; really simple and deliberately hostile scale. #weblite can use HTTP, but Alexandra is also working on an alternative to HTTP 3 that provides GET/PUT semantics for streams over QUIC2/5
(DIR) Post #ACQDIHPt8zxxJUgT8i by yaaps@banana.dog
2021-10-16T11:34:36Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@amirouche @humanetech @person @alexandra @alcinnz Presentation layer - Gemini text is a line-based file format with no in-line markup. That means no embedded images, emphasis, or foot notes. Links are broken out to a new line. #HTML6 is HTML. It relies on the same mechanisms that HTML has always used to make #HTMLlite forward and backward compatible, where rendering isn't broken by an author who relies on behaviors to implement dark patterns. A substantial subset of CSS will be supported, but JavaScript and CSS features like media profiles will be obsolete because we will finally see the promises of semantic HTML delivered3/5
(DIR) Post #ACQDIHxZ7mu8zwRMdE by yaaps@banana.dog
2021-10-16T11:35:03Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@amirouche @humanetech @person @alexandra @alcinnz Market niche - This isn't a horse race and these two #smolnet visions aren't in any kind of existential battle. Gemini gets a lot of (largely unwanted) attention as a web replacement from a lot of people who leave dissatisfied with the answers to their questions about why Gemini isn't more like the web. The thing that *those* people want is #weblite. Gemini will have an easier time following its own vision and those who want the web to be a little less... whatever it is will have more satisfying answers4/5
(DIR) Post #ACQDIKi4tpIZWmDXPM by yaaps@banana.dog
2021-10-16T11:35:50Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@amirouche @humanetech @person @alexandra @alcinnz Personal note - That feeling that "there can be only one" that I'm not accusing anyone in particular of having... If you are having that, please call it by its name, "Colonizer fuckery". It's really important to start from the premise that co-existence is possible in any situation where one party is not actually trying to exterminate the other; it's the only way to break out of the vicious cycles feeding the systems you hate5/5
(DIR) Post #ACQyP4fVdRNNeHjSRU by Seirdy@pleroma.envs.net
2021-10-16T21:07:16.596977Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@yaaps @amirouche @humanetech @person @alexandra @alcinnz Gemini *does* allow inline images if you client supports them. They just require a user gesture to load.Authors don't determine whether images load inline, in a popup window, on a separate external display, etc; that is up to the client. The only thing the spec mandates is that one client interaction results in (at most) one network request.
(DIR) Post #ACR8jp39tmmspcKHei by sacredbirdman@mastodon.online
2021-10-16T21:10:32Z
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@dch @yaaps @alcinnz @amirouche @humanetech @person @alexandraWhen we think about what is good or bad it's worthwhile to consider what the goal actually is. "Simpler" or "less bloat" are too vague.What I would like to see are 1) greatly reduced malfeatures (scams, ads, tracking, fingerprinting, pop-overs, rewriting of UI features like scrolling etc.) most of them use JS to achieve that
(DIR) Post #ACR8jpf5cl82jG4ZmK by sacredbirdman@mastodon.online
2021-10-16T21:19:18Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@dch @yaaps @alcinnz @amirouche @humanetech @person @alexandra 2) lighter loads / faster operation. I went to a some national major news sites and of the multiple megabyte payloads around 75% of was JS and 20% was images and html, rest was fonts etc. So, again, a major culprit is JS.3) I would still like to have some core functionality without the previous bloat and hazardousness of JS. To me this functionality includes the ability to query data and refresh parts of the page w/o full reload.
(DIR) Post #ACR8jtvBmqNpwLdUQa by sacredbirdman@mastodon.online
2021-10-16T21:26:17Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@dch @yaaps @alcinnz @amirouche @humanetech @person @alexandra 4) part of the HTML bloat comes from the low-level semantics of the HTML where web devs are trying to piece together UI controls that do not exist in HTML. So, if we would still like to have "web apps" and not just web pages maybe we could borrow ideas from UI toolkits and have a defined set of controls like tree views, dialogs, menus etc. but maybe that goes too far.
(DIR) Post #ACRJQT1afAvWVzZ96G by alcinnz@floss.social
2021-10-16T07:28:34Z
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@amirouche @humanetech @person @alexandra I have written some principles for HTMLite, largely derived from those for W3C's CSS spec ( https://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/intro.html#design-principles ):* Simplicity* Vendor, platform, and device independence* Forwards and backwards compatibility* Maintainability* Flexibility* Richness* AccessibilityI strongly agree with these principles!
(DIR) Post #ACRJQTg0EvFkXKTQ5g by yaaps@banana.dog
2021-10-16T08:38:07Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@alcinnz @amirouche @humanetech @person @alexandra The difficult bit to explain is how behavior works without imperative scripting - JavaScript and WebAssembly. The idea is to treat HTML declaratively, which is to say that the user-agent determines the behavior of elements. This was the idea behind semantic HTML, ages ago. An article, a table, a header, etc. should have a suitable presentation for each context in which it is rendered without any additional work from the authorFor example, why should you download 12 versions of jQuery and 12 different sort routines to sort tables on 12 websites? With a declarative approach, a user agent sees data in a table and can provide sorting, charts, filters, paging, or any other operation the person would want to do with a table in that environment, and none of the behaviors that they don't want. The behavior of the table is coded into the browser and the individual chooses their browser based on the suitability for their own purposesOf course this is horrible for e-commerce because a vendor website doesn't get to micromanage and track your interactions with the data, but that is a sacrifice I'm eager to make 😎
(DIR) Post #ACRJZZePOf63fi46uO by humanetech@mastodon.social
2021-10-16T09:08:13Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@alexandra @alcinnz And check out the announcement in the #Lemmy #Libre culture community I just wrote down:https://lemmy.ml/post/85325
(DIR) Post #ACRJZaAJU2cLGezadc by gert@social.coop
2021-10-16T13:20:47Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@humanetech @alexandra @alcinnz Time for the Markdown Transfer Protocol yet?
(DIR) Post #ACRJvyOU5Cg6mYIVQe by Hyolobrika@counter.fedi.live
2021-10-17T01:06:49.310814Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Seirdy @yaaps @alcinnz @amirouche @person @humanetech @alexandra speaking of gemini, I wonder if it would be possible to have a response data type that allows embedded images. that way we can have one network request per client interaction *and* inline images (and no possibility of tracking pixels)
(DIR) Post #ACRK4Vie447ySGnZnU by Hyolobrika@counter.fedi.live
2021-10-17T01:08:21.919608Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@humanetech @alexandra @alcinnz have you seen this? https://wowana.me/htss.xhtit's something like HTMLite that has already been thought upcc: @opal
(DIR) Post #ACRKOowKJQ9BrHsmPo by Seirdy@pleroma.envs.net
2021-10-17T01:13:02.455978Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Hyolobrika @yaaps @alcinnz @amirouche @person @humanetech @alexandra I personally prefer having images be click to view and collapsible, with alt-text by default. It reduces the need to scroll up and down and makes text accessibility more than a first class citizen: it makes it a requirement.
(DIR) Post #ACRKbNM6BJ2K4VvLbE by Seirdy@pleroma.envs.net
2021-10-17T01:15:18.328151Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Hyolobrika @alcinnz @alexandra @amirouche @humanetech @person @yaaps Also I selfishly like text being more than a first class citizen bc i often use TTS to listen to articles while I'm on the treadmill. Often, a diagram is a better way to communicate an idea, but it's typically not the *only* way.
(DIR) Post #ACRLNq7SXbqRBJBaTo by Hyolobrika@counter.fedi.live
2021-10-17T01:23:03.778670Z
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@Seirdy @yaaps @alcinnz @amirouche @person @humanetech @alexandra I quite like collapsible images too, but we can still have them with my proposal. Although it will mean that you have to load the images whether you want them or not. Hmm, I didn't think of that.
(DIR) Post #ACRRqldqroLlPwVwUC by alcinnz@floss.social
2021-10-17T01:16:09Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Hyolobrika @humanetech @alexandra @opal Looks familiar...The biggest difference is it's defined relative to WHATWG's spec, a convenience I for the most part haven't afforded myself. But very similar intent!
(DIR) Post #ACRRtACMXLtW9pnapE by yaaps@banana.dog
2021-10-17T01:28:07Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Hyolobrika You could abuse syntax highlighting, but that's none of inline, reliable, or good:#Gemini``` image/svg<svg height="100" width="100"> <circle cx="50" cy="50" r="40" stroke="black" stroke-width="3" fill="red" /></svg>```@alcinnz @amirouche @person @humanetech @alexandra @Seirdy