Post ACEHlOTRIMbDtT8xqC by TheAntichrist@todon.eu
(DIR) More posts by TheAntichrist@todon.eu
(DIR) Post #ACE8QPiqYiYS65GtbU by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-10T16:28:21.432076Z
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I wonder what Dr. Meili knows about #Ivermectin that CBC is not telling us? This piece seems to be light on detail.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/ndp-scott-moe-ivermectin-covid-19-treatment-1.6206132?cmp=rss
(DIR) Post #ACE8V0yzy1ogoi1Jqa by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-10T16:29:11.310319Z
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link is cloudflared but tl;dr meili comes out against itI mean: unlike him I'm not a doctor but it's really interesting when the local expert disagrees with scientific consensus. I don't know what to believe really
(DIR) Post #ACE9Z9tSsZ8HZ7yJ5E by TheAntichrist@todon.eu
2021-10-10T16:40:58Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@jeffcliff Scientific consensus is that it probably doesn't work and is most definitely less safe than vaccines. How is Meili coming out against consensus?
(DIR) Post #ACE9aukMALc3ARY4WG by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-10T16:41:27.571801Z
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@TheAntichrist that's not what i'm seeing https://ivmmeta.com/ is pretty thorough
(DIR) Post #ACE9jOZZ9pWNzIXsjA by dhfir@expired.mentality.rip
2021-10-10T16:42:58.384889Z
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@jeffcliff @TheAntichrist I think I still have the pdf?
(DIR) Post #ACE9kd0SyiCH2jiRCy by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-10T16:43:12.912582Z
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@dhfir @TheAntichrist ???
(DIR) Post #ACE9kuPCI1530MPvcG by dhfir@expired.mentality.rip
2021-10-10T16:43:15.840863Z
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@jeffcliff @TheAntichrist
(DIR) Post #ACE9wqvj2KnLhXKM3U by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-10T16:45:25.465821Z
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@dhfir @TheAntichrist > 2011not relevant to covid
(DIR) Post #ACEA13aTv1sq7EOZg8 by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-10T16:46:11.054981Z
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@dhfir @TheAntichrist unless that's on the "less safe" side in which case meh
(DIR) Post #ACEA1yGFCwZ1syMiY4 by dhfir@expired.mentality.rip
2021-10-10T16:46:20.843940Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@jeffcliff @TheAntichrist relevant to ivermeticin.
(DIR) Post #ACEADwCggObOyoPM1I by TheAntichrist@todon.eu
2021-10-10T16:46:41Z
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@jeffcliff Their confidence intervals are embarrassingly small. This looks more like a psychology paper than a medical paper.
(DIR) Post #ACEADweh0H0INfVifg by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-10T16:48:29.783618Z
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@TheAntichrist that's what kinds of confidence you can get with their numbers i guess, when the data supports it
(DIR) Post #ACEHlOTRIMbDtT8xqC by TheAntichrist@todon.eu
2021-10-10T18:04:16Z
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@jeffcliff "To avoid bias in the selection of studies, we include all studies in the main analysis."This is a bad move and confirms the second quote. They are biasing their data but they don't actually even know how it will be biased. They're adding known unknowns to their input by doing so. The alternative would add a bias, but the certainty of the data measured would be improved. Kim et al provides a more narrow picture, but more certainty as to what it is trying to measure.This kind of stuff is why I don't believe laypeople should "do their own research." It's too easy to make weird mistakes that don't quite do what you meant to do. It's necessary to have a grasp *and be evaluated on your memory of the fundamentals* to be reliable with this stuff.Some degree of trust in an expert is necessary here. I was taught enough by a friend in medicine and a few statistics courses to be able to see where a problem could develop, but I suspect a seasoned researcher could make a more effective critique.
(DIR) Post #ACEHlP17H9XPZutrKi by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-10T18:12:58.657216Z
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@TheAntichrist > Kim et al provides a more narrow picture, but more certainty as to what it is trying to measureon the contrary: kim et al had to do a lot of things, as it wasn't dealing with ivermectin alone - it was both wider (in the sense that it had to summarize other drugs efficacy) and narrower (in the sense it didn't include as many studies).> They are biasing their data but they don't actually even know how it will be biased.Hence the need for as wide of a pool of data as possible, with as many patients as possible. The problem isn't that there isn't bias here the problem here is the tradeoff between others search strategies (and lack of data) and their more data (but broader search). This is a point where reasonable disagreement may be made of course but there's a big difference between 'this statistically significant finding which disagrees with this other statistically significant finding differs so due to mechanism X or faulty data Y' and 'people shouldn't even try to reason about this stuff if they aren't insiders to my ingroup'>. The alternative would add a bias, but the certainty of the data measured would be improvedi don't think they need any more certainty, if anything they have too much n'est ce pas?> Some degree of trust in an expert is necessary here.The point of using meta-analyses is to take the individual expert out of the picture, or narrowing down the number experts who can reasonably disagree and how. Right now we have Kim et al, ivmeta, and possibly Meili to compare against rather than the 100s of researchers who have come to their own independent results on narrow, specific areas.> , but I suspect a seasoned researcher could make a more effective critique.Sure. But they aren't. As they do so, whatever they say should be listened to of course.
(DIR) Post #ACERwwyUMTFJcgoeS8 by TheAntichrist@todon.eu
2021-10-10T19:59:39Z
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@jeffcliff I want to be clear, my problem with laypeople reasoning about this kind of stuff is that if they get it wrong, people die. We don't let sign off on engineering decisions for this reason, I hope medicine has similar safety features involved. If these folks get it wrong, will they apologize? Will they give compensation to the people who took their advice for misinforming them? Or should we say that they hold no liability because clearly they're not experts so anyone who actually listens to them is not a reasonable person like the US does with Tucker Carlson.It doesn't help that this information crosses jurisdictions - there's no clear way for me to do something to hold these people accountable if they screw up and vice-versa.
(DIR) Post #ACET9NAksscGIs2b9k by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-10T20:20:34.950343Z
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@TheAntichrist > I want to be clear, my problem with laypeople reasoning about this kind of stuff is that if they get it wrong, people die.And if the experts get it wrong, people die too. If Meili is speaking as a GP and hasn't been following the journals/meta analyses he very well may have missed this.> We don't let sign off on engineering decisions for this reasonBut there's a difference between an expert signing off on something and people independently reasoning about things. I don't think any old joe should be allowed to build a bridge - someone with the iron ring should sign off on anything that the public is going to walk over. Similarly: doctors *should* be the ones responsible for prescribing medication for the same reason, and our public debate on whether to take or not take medicine at the social level should mostly be between doctors, because the public doesn't always have access to the data they do, or the ability to analyze it (your focus above). I'm not taking ivermectin for this reason - no doctor has suggested I do so. If my doctor were to prescribe it, I'd probably take it, after a discussion about the side effects and its likelihood of working and what working even means in the context of a viral infection. > If these folks get it wrong, will they apologize? I don't think they would have anything to apologize for. All they are doing is displaying data that others have published. If there's a new study, they are almost certainly going to include it. Their failure modes are going to be 1) misinterpreting a study (someone has to read the study to catch this and correct them, but maybe no one does)2) missing a study (likely but not that likely: but they actually take this into account, and this is kind of a general problem for meta-analyses generally even ones like theirs)3) active censorship (so far I've seen no evidence of this: this would be a smoking gun against them and there's good incentives to point out if/when it happens). Maybe this happens though! There's no reason to be 100% sure they aren't4) a study comes out in the future that shows conclusively what happens with it at all levels(in which case they aren't necessary anymore)it's kinda like blaming fermat for not discovering the full calculus : he was close but didn't quite get there. Similarly - ivmeta is pointing where the data points, and if people want to act or follow up on it that's on them and *that* is the sort of thing that doctors should sign off on.Public health and epidemiology also involves taking into account lay perceptions into account, and the more you can involve them into the reasoning the more trust you will build in the outcome.> Or should we say that they hold no liability because clearly they're not experts they are, though - it's not often you get experts that disagree with eachother but this is one of those cases> Tucker Carlson.it's really unfortunate that the question of which meta-analysis is legitimate has become a politically polarized question
(DIR) Post #ACETsbqt9WPGrXJq7c by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-10T20:28:45.489070Z
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@TheAntichrist also on the topic: what you're seeing is how far medicine does *not* have these safety measures in place - there were doctors in the US (and elsewhere) who were prescribing stuff that didn't work, sure that it did - evidence based medicine is a strong movement, but it's not universaland we've still got stuff like the pope intervening on this stuffwe're barely out of the dark ages
(DIR) Post #ACEdMmiGEgYgp0kN3w by TheAntichrist@todon.eu
2021-10-10T20:31:42Z
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@jeffcliff I know naturopathy and osteopathy are big in the US. It's incredibly disturbing. I've gotten banned from several blogs for suggesting that their advice can lead to serious harm and that their patients would be better off keeping the money in their pockets to be able to better afford nutritious food or reduce the stress around paying rent down the line.
(DIR) Post #ACEfWJKmWI0wVeR1NY by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-10T22:39:11.279084Z
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@TheAntichrist also incidentally > better afford nutritious food or reduce the stress around paying rent down the line.i don't have the data to support it but I would bet money that this actually *would* be effective at reducing both mortality and QALYs lost to covidEspecially in light of seeing melatonin on the list - this to me screams 'get a good night sleep, drink plenty of fluids and make sure you have a healthy diet, regular exercise, and a meaningful, leisure-filled life with lots of social connections coming *before* you get it. But almost the only way you'll get that is ...not be poor, not have to be a front-line staff dealing with high viral loads, not being exhausted before you get it etc
(DIR) Post #ACEgJkA7YvejuA1Hn6 by TheAntichrist@todon.eu
2021-10-10T22:45:59Z
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@jeffcliff I agree. My main complaint I suppose, boiled down, is that there is no credibility of the authors here. I don't know that I can trust the work because all of the standard metrics I use for assessing whether or not a paper is plausibly credible are unavailable and the paper isn't even in the freely accessible industry standard format. The work that they're doing is useful, but it's hard to tell given that most of the reviews I've seen from industry professionals so far (ignoring COIs) have been critical in part because the information is harder to decipher because it is not in the standard format.
(DIR) Post #ACEgXidU2BhnE0Pxmy by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-10T22:50:38.873607Z
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@TheAntichrist true: but *someone* has to be the first to do what they are doing, and they are that someonethose reviewers are right, and have legitimate concerns some of which might even be best addressed - but at the end of the day the nature of science has changed forever because of ivmetawe won't go back now that we've seen realtime meta-analysis work imho, the next step will be to use it for other large, messy problemsthough perhaps the next one could have True Names associated with it...
(DIR) Post #ACEgYCDe2orWyYYkgC by TheAntichrist@todon.eu
2021-10-10T22:48:19Z
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@jeffcliff I'm probably less of a fan of corporate United State being behind the drive for the vaccination than you. Kind of wish it was a public initiative or *at least* had the IP stripped for generic Canadian production.
(DIR) Post #ACEge405VwIhDv145I by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-10T22:51:47.661045Z
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@TheAntichrist you're probably right, to your credit - on day #1 I didn't care where the vaccines came from: russia, china, US big pharma, whatever....but we're entering year 3 of this pandemic and it's about the time we got some domestic action on this imho
(DIR) Post #ACEgkBsn7YFlPKWbT6 by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-10T22:52:54.110154Z
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@TheAntichrist speaking of which, I wonder how VIDO is doing . . .
(DIR) Post #ACEgpAuEBE0LpGZc6i by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-10T22:53:48.159542Z
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@TheAntichrist getting moneybut not as much as the sportsball team>_< https://news.usask.ca/articles/general/2021/alumni-ron-and-jane-grahams-5.9m-gift-assists-vaccine-research,-huskie-athletics,-engineering-and-education-students-at-usask.php
(DIR) Post #ACElTapDdFAZc3l6wa by ferrarilegends@poa.st
2021-10-10T23:45:54.346404Z
6 likes, 1 repeats
@Eris @jeffcliff @TheAntichrist for a period of time in europe called "the dark ages" the average peasant still lived a better life than most people on earth today
(DIR) Post #ACElagDrxijYNdfUoa by Lathe@kiwifarms.cc
2021-10-10T23:46:58.454045Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@Eris @jeffcliff @TheAntichrist There was a dark age. It was called the Ottoman Empire.
(DIR) Post #ACElcPTVCXof16nzXM by mossadhorn@kiwifarms.cc
2021-10-10T23:47:17.658103Z
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@Lathe @Eris @TheAntichrist @jeffcliff Okay, now this is based.
(DIR) Post #ACEllKl06xOczWFH5U by Lathe@kiwifarms.cc
2021-10-10T23:48:53.688903Z
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@Eris @TheAntichrist @jeffcliff You didn’t specify what year range.
(DIR) Post #ACEmBVVsk6f1scecLo by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-10T23:53:51.717444Z
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@Lathe @Eris @TheAntichrist in case that was directed to meI think we started coming out of the dark ages for medicine about 8 BG (before google), virtually everything before then is suspect, but at least in canada, we started going back around year 10
(DIR) Post #ACEmpnLzpb1MnLEzke by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-11T00:01:08.626881Z
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@Eris @Lathe @TheAntichrist > If your grocery store closed you would starveNot likely, not here in the breadbasket of canada. There's a lot that would go wrong, and we'd still have grain here. I can see enough grain, ready to eat, from where I'm sitting almost to feed me for the rest of my life.if I starve it'll be irrespective of grocery store availability but purely due to socioeconomic factorsMuch more likely to freeze if the natural gas were to be cut, it's a LOT harder to stay warm than to find food here...but it's a big city, I'll probably figure it out.
(DIR) Post #ACEn2xBEblGX2GTvGa by Tripp@poa.st
2021-10-11T00:03:30.424776Z
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@Eris @jeffcliff @Lathe @TheAntichrist Not only does he not know how to create fire, but in the event he does he'll fail to use it in an efficient manner.
(DIR) Post #ACEn8e54X35BXNJUAa by AR-15@poa.st
2021-10-11T00:04:31.600333Z
4 likes, 2 repeats
@Eris @jeffcliff @Lathe @TheAntichrist "I in this present age am wiser and better than my ancestors because I have more gadgets and trinkets! Progress!"Meanwhile his civilization is unraveling after only 100 years while the past civilizations he mocks lasted millenia.
(DIR) Post #ACEn9otvmuXvNxf7RI by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-11T00:04:45.804354Z
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@Eris @Lathe @TheAntichrist I've already made some deals with farmers explicitly for that contingency, and unlike most urbanites I've got experience as a farmhand. > If you starve it is purely due to personal failures.exactly> Retarded urbanite with all the aid of modern technology doesn't know how to create a fire.creating fire is harder at -40 / -50 but i'd like to think i could manage if my life depended on it
(DIR) Post #ACEnHss6uQBI16ej1E by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-11T00:06:13.299023Z
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@Tripp @Eris @Lathe @TheAntichrist incidentally i have made fire using nothing but sticks and string before, and have hand-wound my own stringi might be a useless tit at some survival things, but making fire isn't one of them
(DIR) Post #ACEnIwlJvhxwN9zEbA by Tripp@poa.st
2021-10-11T00:06:24.581623Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@Eris @Lathe @TheAntichrist @jeffcliff Unfortunately nature is swift in her judgement. Slow is the way of man, Nature is a blink of an eye.
(DIR) Post #ACEnQHwNaUAI5DezVQ by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-11T00:07:44.399400Z
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@AR-15 @Eris @Lathe @TheAntichrist ^ this is why I'm open for what is salvagable
(DIR) Post #ACEnyQR2VlyqH4HM4O by AR-15@poa.st
2021-10-11T00:13:54.508592Z
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@jeffcliff @Eris @Lathe @TheAntichrist "it's okay that my civilization died in only 100 years. We can pack it up and build another 100 year civilization out of this one's dying gasps."Do you remember when I told you you don't care about children and their future? This is why I think that.
(DIR) Post #ACEoMm4vh3VgLlY1FQ by AR-15@poa.st
2021-10-11T00:18:18.502717Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@jeffcliff @Eris @Lathe @TheAntichrist You're supposed to want to build civilizations that last millenia, providing your children and theirs with stability and longevity. Not this vampiric crossroads demon shit where you'll sacrifice the future of the planet and everyone's children to give yourself 10 more years of comfort.
(DIR) Post #ACEohHwOwIUKxfLAYK by Lathe@kiwifarms.cc
2021-10-11T00:21:46.335783Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@AR-15 @Eris @jeffcliff @TheAntichrist When you are a bug man or Amerifat that has no religion or standards, why sacrifice anything for anyone else? It’s the same thought process behind cooming and consooming.
(DIR) Post #ACEokzqKAYHzzQGZ0q by Lathe@kiwifarms.cc
2021-10-11T00:22:35.815005Z
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@Eris @AR-15 @TheAntichrist @jeffcliff Thank god! We can keep Chantal going for decades! The Nadir saga will never end!
(DIR) Post #ACEomttFGyju6eXYwq by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-11T00:23:01.885816Z
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@Lathe @AR-15 @Eris @TheAntichrist point of clarification: am i a bug man? what is a bug man?
(DIR) Post #ACEp8dNHMG7xFrx4Gu by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-11T00:26:55.515350Z
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@Eris @AR-15 @Lathe @TheAntichrist :blobthink: okaywhere I differ from other social animals (like bees and ants) is I have a high degree of individualization and memory of other individuals (I know who you are based on our previous interactions, at least to the extent that online communication allows), I've got a better theory of mind than ants/bees do, and can do abstract reasoning about motivations, etcieit's plausible an ant might self-isolate due to a pandemic spreading their hive's neighbourhood but no ant would explain they were doing so on the fediverse
(DIR) Post #ACEpZpKl09tyAHjrPs by AR-15@poa.st
2021-10-11T00:31:52.356101Z
3 likes, 2 repeats
@jeffcliff @Eris @Lathe @TheAntichrist You know you are not a bug and yet you choose to live as one. Sad!
(DIR) Post #ACEqWwa3hYovj45Kb2 by jeffcliff@mamot.fr
2021-10-11T00:42:32Z
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@jeffcliff @TheAntichrist https://twitter.com/balajis/status/1446913057318264835 relevant iei think what we're really getting at is whether consensus mechanisms on important questions can be done anonymouslyi'd argue they can but maybe there's steps that can be taken that aren't "True Naming" the leaders that would facilitate this.
(DIR) Post #ACEqj497Oo60fHGR0a by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-11T00:44:44.908301Z
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@AR-15 @Eris @Lathe @TheAntichrist my hand is forced here, but that's an interesting and insightful way of putting it imho
(DIR) Post #ACEqsoEfPPQ8DOVOVs by TheAntichrist@todon.eu
2021-10-11T00:46:28Z
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@jeffcliff@mamot.fr @jeffcliff@shitposter.club It can totally be done, but the metrics for reliability are kind of necessary. Review by experts who are named but not necessarily involved would be enough imo. I'm sure there are other methods that wouldn't "appeal to authority."
(DIR) Post #ACEr0Hle0ZuDpkUlhA by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-11T00:47:51.674063Z
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@TheAntichrist @jeffcliff now we're getting somewhere imhowhat kind of metrics would be useful? especially wrt encorporating insight from RAFT / paxos
(DIR) Post #ACEsFIVncfS8RMo2Qy by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-11T01:01:46.713272Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@AR-15 @Lathe @TheAntichrist actually that shouldn't have been the answerwhile true, and appropriate answer for most people it's not an an @Eris appropriate responsenoI'm unlike a bug in that I have a will to power, a meaning and pattern that I want to see reflected in the world. An intuition distilled in me by my family, people and culture, that I make sense of and wish to see continue - I wish keep the fire and song of civilization alive because that is who I amaccuse me of being careless with that fire, and having mismanaged it - to that I may be guilty, but it's through action guided by strategy *guided by my values*
(DIR) Post #ACEtRXOWDPeQ1jnids by AR-15@poa.st
2021-10-11T01:15:11.705271Z
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@jeffcliff @Eris @Lathe @TheAntichrist >he thinks bug civilization is worth keeping aliveCringe
(DIR) Post #ACEtb3UcFB60BVBv3g by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-11T01:16:54.953395Z
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@AR-15 @Eris @Lathe @TheAntichrist no i think we can do better than bug life, and it's that higher standard of life which I seek
(DIR) Post #ACEtkTJpanTItAdYKO by Lathe@kiwifarms.cc
2021-10-11T01:18:25.910293Z
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@jeffcliff @Eris @AR-15 @TheAntichrist Too bad there are those that collude to destroy it faster than you can protect it. Western civilization is over boys. All we can do is wait for the foreplay to end so we can get down to the bloody orgy.
(DIR) Post #ACEuHAYoMArWGcEday by AR-15@poa.st
2021-10-11T01:24:25.945757Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@jeffcliff @Eris @Lathe @TheAntichrist if you judge civilization solely by the standard of living then you should want to rebuild 1939 Germany (highest standard of living ever achieved in history) and tear down everything else because it's built specifically to prevent you from doing this.
(DIR) Post #ACEuZukLNQWkisZFtg by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-11T01:27:54.857678Z
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@AR-15 @Eris @Lathe @TheAntichrist i don'ti mean fixing what's currently broken, which includes stuff like what makes individuals individual including allowing for trade, music, art, dance, shared dining, .. it's undeniable that germany 1939 had a lot going on. They, like we, had its problems but there's some things we have to our advantage that they didn't - konrad zuse's machines vs an 4004 there's no contest which is better : we can do better than they did in principle.
(DIR) Post #ACEun0mCGkUBBlgCWG by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-11T01:30:16.862600Z
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@Eris @AR-15 @Lathe @TheAntichrist Right now i'm not really social, noOutside of the fediverse(which was quiet most of today), and work, I have almost zero social contact right now.I meant a theory in terms of understanding other minds(and/or groups of minds). I have a mind, one that is slowly atrophying as the only social contact i have is these little text bubbles> You really see yourself as the ant huh.yeah i kinda do
(DIR) Post #ACEvO8sr5ZcV32V1Um by AR-15@poa.st
2021-10-11T01:36:55.014887Z
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@jeffcliff @Eris @Lathe @TheAntichrist Please stop, you're just going in circles and making yourself sound even more retarded. You're back to "gadgets make us better and wiser!" We already talked about that.You know all that stuff that's broken that you referred to? That's collectively called "culture." The current order of civilization is built around destroying culture. You can't fix it while any shred of our present civilization exists.
(DIR) Post #ACFHWNSIzdprY9PeXQ by Gerfand@poa.st
2021-10-11T04:16:17.597035Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@jeffcliff @Lathe @Eris @TheAntichrist >8 before google>Canadian
(DIR) Post #ACVJeVkA80pLdMwzEu by bypel@neckbeard.xyz
2021-10-18T23:24:14.320801Z
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@Eris @Lathe @AR-15 @jeffcliff @TheAntichrist do bugs have no intuition? how do you know that? your 'intuition'?
(DIR) Post #ACVM1437ScjWJJhQEy by bypel@neckbeard.xyz
2021-10-18T23:50:43.972599Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Eris @Lathe @AR-15 @jeffcliff @TheAntichrist do you know what theory of mind even is?he's explaining why he is *not* an ant, dumbassI am convinced that you have some form of serious mental deficiency
(DIR) Post #ACVM7sc8NJUEs7KLPE by bypel@neckbeard.xyz
2021-10-18T23:51:58.010831Z
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@jeffcliff @Eris @Lathe @AR-15 @TheAntichrist why do you see yourself as an ant?
(DIR) Post #ACVdIo8H4n5zNX9nZQ by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-19T03:04:25.766702Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@bypel @AR-15 @Lathe @TheAntichrist I mean there's 3 ways that we can view ourselves like ants1) As social creatures. In #TheInsectSocieties Edward O Wilson made a pretty good case that if we're serious about looking at what social creatures (including us) really are like, we have to count ourselves as the special case minority, and the ants/social bugs as the general case generally. They group together in groups of up to millions, they have organized, efficient and dynamic agriculture. They survive, both as individuals with leisure and some degree of freedom, but as part of a living whole. It's a simple live, This, I do feel that we are ant-like but I didn't mean *that* when I said it, but perhaps it should be clarified since I don't think people take this for granted when I say this and they should understand this.2) As the *collective*. This part I'd see as a positive way, Eris probably views in a negative way. This is part of what I mean when I say I'm on the left - I'm *ok* with being part of a living collective, in principle. As part of a whole that governs itself dynamically in a way that is in a state of not just balance with its surrounding environment, but in a way that acts *intelligently* with respect to its outside environment[1]. But that wasn't what I meant either. Similarly : I'm a drone - I am a reproductive neuter, sterile, and much like an ant if something like me is to be created going forward, it's the collective that has to do it.3) As an irrelevant part of an irrelevant whole. The *pejorative* sense of being but an ant. As in, not even rising to the level of human being, or even higher ape...but as equivalent to a bug, living in the dirt, not just 'from ashes to ashes, dust to dust, paycheque to paycheque, bill to bill' ...but something intrinsically......not rising to the level or value of a human being. You can step on an ant, and except for that ant, it doesn't much matter to anything else. Individually they don't really account for much of an impact on their environment, either - of course as a collective they do, but as an ant they don't.Though those moments come and go, of feeling more like an ant and less like a human being, being basically socially isolated in work-script to bed cycle (with little fedi breaks here and there) makes it seem that really, i'm starting to closer approximate the ant, though obviously since I'm explaining this to you it's only so far in the ant direction. Eris@kiwifarms.cc probably meant #3 he probably sees that human beings have a spiritual dimension that isn't entirely orthogonal to the 'human' dimension that I would mention. His view is probably something along the lines that it's unworthy of a human being to live as an ant - that something like the #RepugnantConclusion is worth avoiding (to that I agree). We probably just disagree on where the repugnant part starts - that an irrelevant life for a drone of work, food, and rest is not good enough, and that there's something that spiritually calls humans worth hearing the call, and living for, and living up to. Failure to live up to it is to not even be worthy of the name human. Something like that.[1] Godel Escher Bach kind of describes how this 'higher level' activity can be derived from lower level, more or less independent, but simple rule following ants. Edward O Wilson gives some evidence that, at least in some cases, ants *do* follow simple heuristics/rules through chemotaxis and other mechanisms implemented in their biology.
(DIR) Post #ACVeZTKHmpX1j5HktE by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-19T03:18:38.808871Z
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@bypel @AR-15 @Lathe @TheAntichrist here's another example https://twitter.com/jeffcliff1/status/587348718346723328The difference between a human being and an ant is that human beings are capable of empathy for ants.I *am* slowly losing my capacity for empathy. My hard lines are getting harder, and I'm finding that I am seeing less and less wrong with those who utterly despise their outgroups.
(DIR) Post #ACVegiMcH9BSOKpSMK by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-19T03:19:56.973702Z
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@bypel @AR-15 @Lathe @TheAntichrist s/simple live/simple life/
(DIR) Post #ACVfZPeFYrA6H09v8K by numberonedonaldtrumpfan@freespeechextremist.com
2021-10-19T03:29:50.734510Z
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@jeffcliff @bypel @AR-15 @Lathe @TheAntichrist pee pee poo poo
(DIR) Post #ACVt4o8rqIQ6cXmSsi by jeffcliff@shitposter.club
2021-10-19T06:01:10.784970Z
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@bypel @AR-15 @Lathe @TheAntichrist More on #2 There's a discussion about "the spirit of human society", and how mutually beneficial freedom enables it in rms's nyu 2001 talk [1]"the difference between a livable society, and a dog eat dog jungle" at around 35:00-45:00 or so - the difference between going to work and just clocking in...and actually making a difference in the world around youthat helping your neighbour *not* just because you have to, is inherently a human act in this sense - ie what differs between us and ants[1] https://shitposter.club/notice/ACVelDpWIukHPd7Q12