Post ABs8bJ5tkm6aEo0oee by unl0ckd@fosstodon.org
(DIR) More posts by unl0ckd@fosstodon.org
(DIR) Post #ABrMRtXIc3DeZ5H6bA by adidal@cdstm.ch
2021-09-29T16:47:06Z
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@schlink noticed that with my little brothers. sure they understand desktop shortcuts but ask them to save their document on their home directory and they are lost
(DIR) Post #ABrapTNKvaTDjlkga0 by OpenComputeDesign@linuxrocks.online
2021-09-29T19:28:14Z
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@schlink Oh my gosh, I can't tell you how often I have to deal with family members somehow saving things to temporary folders (eg if they opened it from firefox), and then being surprised, dismayed, or just plain not understanding, when they rebooted their computers to find their work gone.
(DIR) Post #ABs8bJ5tkm6aEo0oee by unl0ckd@fosstodon.org
2021-09-30T01:46:38Z
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@schlink I wasn't planning on feeling ancient this evening, but here we are 🤷
(DIR) Post #ABtDlfDZ2yDWg5JdMO by Alonealastalovedalongthe@toot.cafe
2021-09-29T17:50:10Z
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@schlinkSomeone convince me this isn't part of companies desire to alienate users from the computers they use and reinforce the idea that nobody should own anything.There is a difference between understanding file structure hierarchy and being lazy and using a massive downloads folder like I do and not understanding that files have a specific place in the first place.
(DIR) Post #ABtDlfiPCIt4DjkGQq by arefgee@mastodon.online
2021-09-30T06:49:27Z
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@Alonealastalovedalongthe @schlink It absolutely is! This is all because of that thumb-flicking, surveillance probe everyone's given before they even want it. Which is designed to do one thing and one thing only. There's no surprise one can't find a half-decent mobile application for file management. That is the primary device kids use, not a computer. They don't even refer to machines as computers anymore.
(DIR) Post #ABtDlgCXOGzRjBqKOm by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-09-30T14:19:12Z
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@arefgee @Alonealastalovedalongthe @schlink I think this trend is more complicated.On one hand, the specific form this is taking (hierarchical file structure -> search-driven laundry basket) is absolutely driven by specific companies wanting to make consumers more consumer-y, and in particular alienates them from the means of digital production.On the other hand, the hierarchical file structure is not actually all that good, and this newer form is closer to the final form.
(DIR) Post #ABtENnZGRyDrZxeLOC by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-09-30T14:26:08Z
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@arefgee @Alonealastalovedalongthe @schlink The problem with hierarchical file structures is that, well, they're hierarchical.I'm not entirely sure why we settled on the hierarchical system in the first place. I'm guessing it was a combo of trees having nice properties and the work culture of the mid-20th century.Hierarchical systems have problems with non-hierarchical relationshipsIf I have a photo of my family at Christmas 2018, where do I put it? Family? Christmas? 2018? Christmas 2018?
(DIR) Post #ABtExQ2LPnRH1YEkGO by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-09-30T14:32:33Z
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@arefgee @Alonealastalovedalongthe @schlink What the newer generation is doing is breaking out of the rigid hierarchy of the old system. In my example, if they've tagged the photo with Family at Christmas 2018, then they can free text search for any of those things (or a time range via the EXIF data tagged on the photo), and boom: there's that photo.No directories and files required. No remembering their self-specific organization scheme.There's a lot of positive things about this system.
(DIR) Post #ABtO1BAPXffpeSsToW by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-09-30T16:14:05Z
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@arefgee @Alonealastalovedalongthe @schlink That said, it's not the final form and the big companies are railroading people into an inferior, more complex version of this system.The most obvious problem is that the app-based structure of phones is closing off the previously open and uniform structure of the filesystem, which is a huge step back.This kind of separation isn't strictly bad either, a good variant of this would be a pod-based structure, with a common interface for data backups.
(DIR) Post #ABtOJY459ANvsfg0a8 by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-09-30T16:17:25Z
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@arefgee @Alonealastalovedalongthe @schlink As long as the big companies benefit from the complexity of their app-based system moving consumers toward using their cloud backups though, they aren't going to make any efforts to make this more consumer-friendly.After all, they want people to use cloud backups and their sophisticated search algorithms, which make the whole mess manageable for the average consumer.
(DIR) Post #ABtOvG7SJgHZEBEiR6 by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-09-30T16:24:14Z
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@arefgee @Alonealastalovedalongthe @schlink The other issue, which is the real sticking point in the article, is that sometimes you need high a precision organization system, especially when you're doing real productive work.The search system works great for the kind of associative memory use case of organizing photos, where your entry point might be thinking of old family photos or Christmas, or it might be scrolling back in time, but it's not so great for organizing a project.
(DIR) Post #ABtS2Dl7n1DdnUnoeG by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-09-30T16:59:06Z
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@arefgee @Alonealastalovedalongthe @schlink That said, the hierarchical file system isn't the be-all-end-all for the kind of precise organization either.You can get the best of both worlds with a graph-based (or relational-based) system, which can be conceptualized in a file-compatible way as a tagging system.In the photo example, you can tag it with all the different relevant tags, and then it's in all those tag-directories.Meanwhile, if a strict hierarchy makes sense you can create one.
(DIR) Post #ABtSR5nwV9hcMlyq7k by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-09-30T17:03:35Z
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@arefgee @Alonealastalovedalongthe @schlink One might ask: Isn't this just hard links?Not really, as the file has a separate existence, and can be managed independently of the hard links. Like if you delete the file, it vanishes across the board (which, while possible with hard links, requires some special hoop-jumping).It's also not a soft link, as there's no canonical location to which all the other links link to.
(DIR) Post #ABtT5Ythko7EBCyMwS by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-09-30T17:10:50Z
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@arefgee @Alonealastalovedalongthe @schlink The file exists in a giant heap of uniquely identified data, and you interact with it via domain-specific indexed views of the data.Which...is exactly what the next generation of computer users are doing. After all, most apps use a database model to index their searches and make them fast and effective.The problem isn't the new paradigm that's forming, it's the deliberate closing off of the system by those with the power to do so.
(DIR) Post #ABtdMHv584l9zMEOMy by Alonealastalovedalongthe@toot.cafe
2021-09-30T19:05:57Z
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@urusanThank you for the well thought out response!I have thought a bit about this in organizing ideas and information in org mode, which isn't a file system (strictly, tho with text files it can do the work of one) but still provides an interesting basis to think about things.@arefgee @schlink
(DIR) Post #ABu4apvYBU6IHHc0iO by Alonealastalovedalongthe@toot.cafe
2021-09-30T19:07:25Z
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@urusan @arefgee @schlinkI see a lot of competitors to org mode that emphasize non-hierarchical properties and while I make no disagreement that organizing information in hierarchies is a distortion of reality, I am so far unconvinced that human brains can meaningfully interact with ideas at a macro level without creating "hierarchical distortions" as intermediary tools.
(DIR) Post #ABu4aqTEAH2TxjMuCu by Alonealastalovedalongthe@toot.cafe
2021-09-30T19:09:58Z
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@urusan @arefgee @schlinkI think your point about letting go of rigid file systems is fantastic and very nuanced and I guess what I would say is that from the lens of org mode there are many competing thinking systems that emphasize a complete lack of hierarchy and I think they are trying to think outside the box by coming up with an anti-box... its not really thinking outside the box
(DIR) Post #ABu4aqzUEKqLZmSfUO by Alonealastalovedalongthe@toot.cafe
2021-09-30T19:13:45Z
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@urusan @arefgee @schlinkI would love someone to provide direct evidence I am wrong, but right now I conceptualize the human mind in its relation to non-hierarchical systems as a person viewing a sculpture.Sculptures for the most part embrace the idea that there is no specific perspective (hierarchical organization) to view them from, yet the human eye cannot directly sense 3d volumes so a person must walk around the sculpture taking multiple perspectives to construct a sense of the volume.
(DIR) Post #ABu4arXAD7mXGEDYyu by Alonealastalovedalongthe@toot.cafe
2021-09-30T19:18:34Z
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@urusan @arefgee @schlinkMy point is, I don't think the hierarchy is the problem, I think the rigidity of the hierarchy is the problem and the assumed axiom that only a single perspective/hierarchy can exist at a time is the problem.It is an echo of how scientific models of the universe are necessary but are also inherently distortions of reality. The solution is to continually develop new scientific models and use information from each to develop a sense of reality/volume.
(DIR) Post #ABu4arzAX0BQf5JvdI by Alonealastalovedalongthe@toot.cafe
2021-09-30T19:23:09Z
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@urusan @arefgee @schlinkI guess I am arguing for a tag based system like you say, although I might describe it as a system that has atoms that are shared between multiple coexisting hierarchies (such that editing the atom from any one hierarchy updates the atom everywhere else). These hierarchies have no information themselves beyond a recipe for organizing the atoms into said hierarchies.
(DIR) Post #ABu4asPkw9RzzXlA4e by arefgee@mastodon.online
2021-09-30T19:48:58Z
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@Alonealastalovedalongthe @urusan and @schlink , I don't know what you two are smoking, but it seems fucking strong! x'DBoth of you lost yourselves in your own fantasies of future file-systems. This article is not about file-systems. It's about how students and inexperienced professionals cannot comprehend computer basics, because they were not shown. In addition to being given dumbed down systems to use.That's not going to go away with new architectures built on sci-fi fantasy.
(DIR) Post #ABu4astt87YNUzrE2a by arefgee@mastodon.online
2021-09-30T19:56:09Z
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@Alonealastalovedalongthe @urusan @schlink As long as data is stored in files, that file will physically exist somewhere. If one cannot understand that they cannot build "any" kind of "better" system to access it.Also, people don't tag their shit. No point fantasizing they will.And stop spamming the feeds by posting 15 comments at a time, all set to public! Unlist your shit! Or tag it ;D
(DIR) Post #ABu4atMxO2o0x9SRLk by Alonealastalovedalongthe@toot.cafe
2021-09-30T19:58:52Z
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@arefgee @urusan @schlink I am sorry, I disagree with you on multiple points and feel like you are being needlessly condescending but I am genuinely sorry I took up a bunch of your feed and didn't CW
(DIR) Post #ABu4atpJgbUUN6j5YO by arefgee@mastodon.online
2021-09-30T20:09:28Z
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@Alonealastalovedalongthe It's not needless. Completely misinterpreting an entire article, then wasting everyone's time with the same attention-seeking, tech-bro crap that leads to these problems; it needs to be pointed out.The systems that you want to have already exist—within corporations that manage and trade in the world's data. CW doesn't hide a long chain of shitposts. Only masks their contents. Unlist and "Nest" your comments. Just like a filesystem with a hierarchical structure.
(DIR) Post #ABu4auDQEylzZs0L7w by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-10-01T00:11:07Z
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@arefgee @Alonealastalovedalongthe I didn't misinterpret the article. I was exploring an aspect of the article that was mostly just hinted at: all of the younger people and even some of the educators spoke positively of the new model. Why is that?There's more afoot here than just "Big tech companies brainwashed your children! News at 11!"Two other quick notes:* Files (and especially directories) are not inherent to storage* These ideas are over a half century old
(DIR) Post #ABu4nZTAgWnv02PVA0 by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-10-01T00:13:27Z
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@arefgee Is there a nesting feature I'm missing?I will leave you out of future lengthy conversations per your request. Sorry to blow up your feed with a tootstorm.
(DIR) Post #ABu6OSOY3D2Tj8OseO by urusan@fosstodon.org
2021-10-01T00:31:06Z
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@Alonealastalovedalongthe Hold on, I've got to think through what you said here.One immediate thing I can say though is that having a non-hierarchical underlying data is key to the flexibility you are hoping to achieve. In your analogy, it's like having a 3D model of the sculpture, which you can then readily view from different angles.Also, a quick note about tag systems: The hidden hierarchy is the tags themselves. All the tag systems I've used have hierarchical (or flat) tags.