Post AAifslnr5PogVYAM52 by adult_human_female@spinster.xyz
(DIR) More posts by adult_human_female@spinster.xyz
(DIR) Post #AAiTiqemzDgxDRQatU by Berco@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T11:50:32.197960Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
I'm wondering what other Spins think:Whenever someone in the media, or in an article, prefaces speaking on gender woo woo with: "no one hates trans people or questions their right to live authentically..." or some such and then goes on to explain why we GC people point out the conflicts with women's and children's rights, I cringe. Why? Because this assumes that everyone accepts that there are "trans", and that they can transition from one sex to another. For me, this negates my underlying belief in the biology of sex, and that it is binary and immutable. So the appeasing statement about "trans" people is wrong from the get go and makes the following arguments mute, no matter how cogent they are. Anyone else feel the same, or no? What say you?
(DIR) Post #AAiTirAh4bDEoOM4ci by Dingo123@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T12:02:48.992036Z
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@Berco Gender Identity is a Religion that replaces sex with gender identity and that people should not be classified as male or female based on sex because of DSD so they claim people should classify themselves as male, female or something else based on internal subjective perception of themselves.
(DIR) Post #AAiUogX5dmfHVYAppg by DoctorDee@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T12:13:46.737896Z
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@Berco It's not necessary or helpful, and it's also not true--there are plenty of people who hate so-called 'trans people' and question their right to live 'authentically' (even irrespective of the fact that nothing about 'trans' has anything to do with 'authenticity'). Agree with the other commenter (which I can't see right now) that language matters, because it leads to thoughts and feelings.
(DIR) Post #AAiaDYGzzCD6tyK9Eu by Cousin_Isobel@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T12:13:41.488879Z
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@Berco I'm informed by those who are in the trenches, dealing with Democrats and progressives, that softeners are needed because these people really do think we are a "hate"-based movement.However, I do think that discussions about "gender identity" need to be about more than women's and children's rights, although these things are very important. We really need to drive home the fact that, as you say, sex is binary and immutable. It's as simple as that. We can't discuss anything unless we're working from the facts.I'm favor, then, of softeners that point out everyone's rights (to dress as they please, for example), but with a heavy dose of reality, including accurate nouns and pronouns.
(DIR) Post #AAiaDYmY5tRoTp5LPs by Berco@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T12:18:06.811118Z
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@Cousin_Isobel Good points. If put that way, to dress as you like, to believe what you like, but not impose those beliefs on others, then I wouldn't cringe. And yes, they are "softeners" but the way it is done, it is appeasement to lies, delusions and disinformation, in an unhelpful way. Agree with you that we must speak truthfully and carefully and explain ourselves without compromising our principals. Kara Dansky does this excellently without giving an inch.
(DIR) Post #AAiaDZLI0jEkDZL5ZA by Cousin_Isobel@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T12:34:42.682308Z
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@Berco Kara is so perfect! She always manages to sound like a Democrat (which I don't mean as an insult đ
), while using 100% accurate language. She's my model in almost everything I do.
(DIR) Post #AAifslnr5PogVYAM52 by adult_human_female@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T13:13:31.974574Z
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@Berco Agree. I never use the term âtrans peopleâ because it implies there exists a class of people who are this thing called âtrans,â which is impossible because âtransâ is defined by false premises: born in the wrong body, assigned sex at birth, gender is innate, etc. All false. There is no such thing as âtrans people.â There are simply people who call themselves trans. What does exist are people with dysphoria and gender-nonconforming people. And thus, there is no such thing as âtransphobiaâ because oppression does not occur on the basis of how you perceive yourself (âidentityâ) but by how you are externally perceived (e.g. a person of color canât escape racism by âidentifyingâ as white). Discrimination faced by trans-identifying people is the same faced by all GNC people, on the basis of gender-nonconformity, which is rooted in homophobia (which is rooted in misogyny), because GNC people are assumed to be gay.
(DIR) Post #AAifsmJPC73O5OvYG0 by Berco@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T13:32:10.665409Z
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@adult_human_female Well put. But I do get confused by the term "gender non-conforming" because I don't believe in "gender," a made up concept, as we know, by males to define what a "woman" is: femininity. So if we want to eliminate "gender" then GNC is also a nonsense, meaningless word, or should be, because we are all female or male and there is a myriad of ways of being the sex you are, and we all need to respect and accept that as a society. I also question the concept "gender dysphoria" for the same reasons. Yes some people want to be the other sex, hell, I felt that for a while as a budding teenage, clueless lesbian, as so many of us did. And for some the feeling is strong and they can't accept the reality of who they are and perhaps need some mental health assistance. ETC.
(DIR) Post #AAifsmpJHUZfgLr1zE by Gnomeshatecheese@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T13:43:10.042764Z
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@Berco âGender non-conformingâ works fine if âgenderâ is understood to mean âsex stereotypesâ, as it was for a long time in feminist circles. Same goes for âgender dysphoriaâ. A term is needed to refer to sex stereotypes, as they do clearly exist. You might argue that retaining âgenderâ in that meaning is at this point impossible and attempts to do so lead to muddying the waters (and perhaps that âsex stereotypesâ should again take its place), but thatâs another matter. @adult_human_female
(DIR) Post #AAinYj3mNJHlqFZFHE by EmmyNoether@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T12:42:37.902401Z
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@Berco @Cousin_Isobel I guess the questions are: who is your target audience; and do you want to win the political battle or simply to remain true to your principles?For me the target audience is the bulk of left-of-centre voters whoâve had the wool pulled over their eyes by a pincer movement of âbe kindâ and âobscure the truth at all costsâ (by allowing the floating voters to think weâre talking about old-school transexuals whoâve had full surgery, rather than intact men with penises in womenâs prisons, rape centres, sports, etc.)For this target audience itâs important to say âand we still want to leave space for old school transexualsâ - because if you donât add this, you wonât win over a generation raised on Hayley Cropper in Corrie over to the importance of keeping male rapists out of womenâs prisons.As for politics versus truth - I want to win the political battle. I want to stop mastectomies and male cancer drugs being used on underage girls. I want to make sure no woman finds herself incarcerated with a male rapist. I want to make sure no woman loses out on a medal place, or team selection, to a male playing womenâs sports. I need accurate enough language that I can describe the reality of the situation (not CNN style re-writing of peopleâs actual words to replace âmaleâ with âtransgenderâ throughout so the reader doesnât understand whatâs actually going on). But I donât care about making sure my language meets standards of perfect purity at all times. Good enough to describe the reality of the situation in order to win the political battle will do me fine.*For me itâs primarily about doing whatever is necessary to win a political battle.(*Incidentally this is why Mayaâs High Court case in the UK was so important. The TRA lobby wanted to classify language accurate enough to describe the reality of the situation as hate speech, thus removing from us the tools we needed to do a political job. Mayaâs case means they canât do this. The odd âsheâ in the workplace to a trans-identifying colleague - meh, not gonna lose my job or even any sleep over that one.)
(DIR) Post #AAinYjdEFVdrcC9YX2 by Cousin_Isobel@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T14:15:20.278146Z
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@EmmyNoether I appreciate your perspective on this, and I'm curious about something: do Coronation Street fans know that Hayley Cropper was played by a woman?In the U.S., "trans on TV" has meant Transparent and the Jazz Jennings disaster show. (There's also RuPaul's show, though I am not sure whether the participants actually think of themselves as "transgender" or just as drag performance artists, because I haven't seen much of it.) In Transparent and Jazz, "trans" is portrayed sympathetically and viewers might love the characters and be fully on board with whatever they might want, but in the backs of their minds, there is always a little something reminding them, "This is a man," or "This is a boy."Do you think the Hayley Cropper character made viewers think "transwomen" really are women - because actually, the person in front of their eyes, being called a "transwoman," really is female?@Berco
(DIR) Post #AAinYkES17PrTdZHY8 by arx86@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T15:23:54.174692Z
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@Cousin_Isobel @EmmyNoether @Berco I thought it was common knowledge - at least in Britain - that Hayley Cropper was played by a natal woman?Can't think of any trans actors during that period of British TV, presuming drag queens & pantomime dames aren't included.
(DIR) Post #AAivnIYnytwzdEXUx6 by Berco@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T15:06:49.914997Z
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@Gnomeshatecheese @adult_human_female Yes i do think we should again use "sex stereotypes" because the word gender is not ever used consistently with one understood definition. it is misused in its three or four usages (as what's her face the lesbian academic who wrote a recent book on all this stuff has a bit on) and does, imo, muddy the waters. I mean "gender identity" for fuck sake...
(DIR) Post #AAivnJDZXKYnffc3Um by Myrth@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T15:20:55.719521Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@Berco @Gnomeshatecheese @adult_human_female Precisely. I recall in college there was Women's Studies. Some years later it morphed into "Gender."When I was a girl, feminism was about smashing gender stereotypes. Girls could wear pants! That was, in fact, my first act of protest - wearing pants to school in defiance of the dress code which made me wear skirts in bitter cold Midwestern winter conditions, or wear pants and change in the unisex cloak room outside my classroom. Unacceptable!Feminists back then fought for the right to exist outside of gender stereotypes, for women AND men. Men could get manicures, wear pink, wear skirts.Nowadays, the world has re-embraced gender stereotypes. Men fetishize the feminine gender stereotypes and wear makeup thickly plastered on their faces, short skirts, high heels, f*ing GLITTER. And they think that makes them a woman. It's all just misogynistic GENDER STEREOTYPES.
(DIR) Post #AAiwU4PcSYNICidbpA by RamonaQuimbey@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T17:11:29.094567Z
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@Berco the problem is, if you say right off that trans isn't real, no one listens after that point, you are immediately discounted as a mean hateful biget. You have to be all womanly touchy feely first. It's nauseating. I don't want to align with the far right but here we are.
(DIR) Post #AAiwU4qup4D1ZNPPN2 by Berco@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T17:17:19.164529Z
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@RamonaQuimbey I think there are "nice" ways to describe our belief that humans cannot change sex, you don't actually have to say "trans" is not a thing. Also asking people questions if appropriate, like: what is a woman? What is the difference between a man and a "trans" woman? etc. etc.
(DIR) Post #AAixhESEXBM94HhUrw by Gnomeshatecheese@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T17:32:17.660566Z
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@Berco @RamonaQuimbey I think it also, again, depends on the audience. I think that if you talk to the normies who havenât paid much attention to this, âI donât believe thatâ or âyou canât change sex though, no matter what they sayâ can be very powerful arguments. I also think that juxtaposing it with religious beliefs and demands to believe in them can be powerful. Itâs also about pushing on the overton window. Even if the libby-minded stop listening as soon as someone says âI donât believe thatâ, itâs important for those statements to be out there in public, as opinions that people can and do hold and express. Even if they donât think itâs a âniceâ thing to say, they need to be made to face the fact that people can say it and do say it. The real danger is in those sentiments becoming unacceptable (or even unlawful) to be expressed in public.See also religionâŚ
(DIR) Post #AAixhEuwoQKCVL8Qcq by senryu@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T17:39:15.031602Z
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@Gnomeshatecheese @Berco @RamonaQuimbey I just saw someone peak in real time on the bird app "do you mean to say they are putting men in cells with women prisoners?" Keeping the discussion on the abstract level is how they prevent people from seeing the effects since most liberals are insulated from them.
(DIR) Post #AAj0Pz2StafwCH79pg by mathlover@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T17:54:36.932113Z
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@Berco @RamonaQuimbey That humans can never change sex is not a belief. It's a fact. Like gravity. Thinking you can jump out of an airplane and fly is "not a thing" the same way "trans" is not a thing.It does help to ask questions, though. Simply asking what someone means by "trans" or "what is a woman" is effective to demonstrate the total lack of any objective reality for the whole trans edifice. You just keep asking over and over - there are never any substantive responses and the responses all fall apart with the slightest questioning.
(DIR) Post #AAj0PzYixeTnoKCv7A by AnneBevan@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T18:09:02.715174Z
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@mathlover @Berco @RamonaQuimbey Recently someone posted on here a transloonâs reply to the question âWhat is a woman?âHe explained that transwomen and non-transwomen were all ânon-menâ. These pricks are quite happy to be defined in terms of men. So women must accept being defined in terms of men. The pricks say so.
(DIR) Post #AAj0mtqCO4CGjjIvUu by adult_human_female@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T18:13:28.059981Z
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@Berco Good point; I mean, everyone is technically âgender-nonconformingâ to some degree because itâs impossible to fit every sex stereotype 24/7. Thereâs no clear-cut way of delineating what level of GNC will lead to discrimination, but as we do need some way of describing folks who face discrimination for deviating from stereotypes (ie more than just a woman wearing pants), I generally use the term to indicate significant deviation from the most accepted and established norms, like a woman never wearing makeup or shaving, or a man taking his wifeâs last name. Traits that will generally get you criticized in society, deem you âless of a manâ or âless of a womanâ / less desirable as a partner by heteropatriarchal standards, etc. đ¤ˇ
(DIR) Post #AAj13VatmzxySY4FeK by Gnomeshatecheese@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T17:55:54.147873Z
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@senryu Yep. And theyâre doing their damndest to keep the discussion away from the actual things that already happen. Thatâs what the âthat never happens/would never happenâ rhetoric is about. They have to dismiss the outrageous crap out of hand as not real, because they know the majority would balk at it if they knew the reality on the ground.Thatâs also what the âonly a few, poor, vulnerable soulsâ narrative is all about. @Berco @RamonaQuimbey
(DIR) Post #AAj13W4g0Hmlwu0240 by senryu@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T18:08:58.249527Z
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@Gnomeshatecheese @Berco @RamonaQuimbey Just watching Peter Tatchell trot out that inaccurate rhetoric (how many violent TIMs have we documented here just in the last year) and expecting women to show injury first before being able to exclude anyone from our spaces. I am so impatient with the talking points: you know exactly where someone is going and it is simply not true but you have to let them spill the balloon juice before you get to correct them.
(DIR) Post #AAj2MMYlhdtntccpo8 by senryu@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T18:16:10.762973Z
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@Myrth @Berco @Gnomeshatecheese @adult_human_female I'm of the same era and fought to wear pants at work and school. The interim period of young women saying they weren't feminists while enjoying our hard won advancements has helped pave the way to reinforce old stereotypes. You can never afford to stop fighting because men will always find a workaround.
(DIR) Post #AAj4CNICK7v7BIEuu0 by ImpoliteFemale@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T18:52:46.161449Z
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@AnneBevan @mathlover @Berco @RamonaQuimbey this isnt new. There are males walking this earth today who believe the only difference between a man and a woman is women dont have penises
(DIR) Post #AAj4JG6FSr4stsvu3k by ImpoliteFemale@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T18:54:02.460458Z
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@AnneBevan @mathlover @Berco @RamonaQuimbey
(DIR) Post #AAj4QWEzqnSQzKUFAe by ImpoliteFemale@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T18:55:21.588090Z
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@AnneBevan @mathlover @Berco @RamonaQuimbey
(DIR) Post #AAj5TOHXzvIf7wc4XY by Dingo123@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T18:21:57.851105Z
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@AnneBevan @mathlover @Berco @RamonaQuimbey This reminds me the word man used to mean human but then man become male and the word woman was created for female.
(DIR) Post #AAj9t2Jyfa90MYEZnc by FemaleIsNotAFeeling@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T19:15:57.432354Z
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@Cousin_IsobelExcellent point. There are so many articles I share here, that I'd like to share with my liberal friends on my FB, but there's typically always some inflammatory text that would instantly discredit the entire piece and they'd be lost forever to my cause.Newbees to gender-peaking, (ESPECIALLY liberals that support trans ideology) need to be given a soft entry into gender-dissent. Because everything they see that's "mean" usually comes from Republicans and they won't take their earplugs out for any of that or for any hatred. Too many articles don't give me what I need to peak my friends. I don't need sensationalized articles with the worst of the worst (like Chris Chan) that would paint all trans as insestual rapists - I need articles that focus on women and girls, our history of sex-based oppression, the response of our hard won sex-based rights, and how those rights are at perpetual risk by gender ideology.We won't get people to "convert" if we use the "they're all evil" tactic...it's too easy to strike that down with #NotAllTrans. We need to win people over by the plight of women and how gender ideology is affecting us and our rights as a uniquely protected sect of global society. If there were more "soft" articles on gender critical theory that would focus on women's rights, without inflammatory language, I would be sharing them all day. For example, Graham Linehan (love him, don't get me wrong!) almost got a piece shared by me the other day, but he put a few too many snarks in there, so I declined to share. I didn't feel like being called a TERF on FB that day. @Berco
(DIR) Post #AAjKuFqAzPsQ4s4uOG by Spring@spinster.xyz
2021-08-26T20:42:49.766890Z
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@Berco I absolutely agree. The entire bollocks concept of trans needs debunking. It drives me mad when people give it spurious credibility like that. It is nothing but a sexual fetish in males - including the "old school transsexuals" who are also part of the problem. In young women it is simply the latest socially contagious form of self harm. "Non binary", meanwhile, is trans lite for young people who just want to jump on a social bandwagon for a while. Gender means "sex stereotypes" to me so I just say that. I therefore manage 100% without the word gender, which needs binning at this point as it just serves as an all too handy vehicle for this harmful crap. We could also manage without "trans" and "dysphoria" (which just means negative mood). We can refer to autogynephilic men and people who are depressed about what sex they are or what sex stereotype they are pressured to buy into. Simples.