Post AA9F9rm2nnCPi2OlLE by kev@fosstodon.org
(DIR) More posts by kev@fosstodon.org
(DIR) Post #AA94VCHGfNGtsxyJ3g by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T10:06:27Z
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This is an exceptionally good write up about what’s actually happening with the whole #Apple saga.Far too much hyperbole and not enough facts.https://daringfireball.net/2021/08/apple_child_safety_initiatives_slippery_slope
(DIR) Post #AA96ouE9gawpbV2dE0 by rudolf@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T10:32:24Z
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@kev No, that article is bad.Apple plans to include near matches:"Apple's hashing technology is called NeuralHash, and it analyzes an image and converts it to a unique number specific to that image. Only another image that appears nearly identical can produce the same number;"They do not plan unique fingerprinting.So they can also identify any Chinese with a Tiannaman Square on his Apple device.https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/08/apple-explains-how-iphones-will-scan-photos-for-child-sexual-abuse-images/
(DIR) Post #AA97B5tUzQ1I9txZ44 by sotolf@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T10:36:22Z
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@kev It would carry a lot more weight if it wasn't written by a known apple apologist.
(DIR) Post #AA980lEV3Kz98ZQ3zE by x@toot.icyphox.sh
2021-08-09T10:45:47.571046Z
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@kev lol, that article is god awful. and gruber is an apple bootlicker.
(DIR) Post #AA9AMEMU9DIxT5WI5I by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T11:11:59Z
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@x the article is technically accurate. “Apple bootlicker” or not, facts are facts.
(DIR) Post #AA9AeAfOclA9Dkv5we by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T11:15:16Z
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@sotolf as I’ve said before, the background of the person writing it means nothing in this case. The technical information is accurate. Facts are facts.
(DIR) Post #AA9AnXcee1Bp1V6bpo by staticvoidmaine@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T11:16:56Z
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@kev I don’t disagree that this is an excellent write up from someone with faith in Apple to do the right thing.I think what people are concerned about is what he calls out in the last three paragraphs.The rest of the article is very nicely written in order to explain the “what” of the situation, but it does bury the lede a little bit…
(DIR) Post #AA9ApcGSMB5C00iCe0 by ryo@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T11:17:01Z
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@kev Well Daring Fireball... 'nuff said.An Apple Fanboy paradise.Not enough facts? But "we" (free software community, however I only speak for myself) are blaming Google for abusing their power, spying on people, selling their data (that's much like an urban legend), and most "evil" things are not much more than pure speculation.If you want to have hard proof, well then Google, Microsoft and Apple are all the same: Okay!But probably, it IS going to be abused by them. By Apple, too.
(DIR) Post #AA9AqrFk7DGQm5yDiq by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T11:17:08Z
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@rudolf clearly you don’t understand what hashing is, or how it works.
(DIR) Post #AA9AzRt9mwteiOVD16 by staticvoidmaine@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T11:19:09Z
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@kev “This slippery-slope argument is a legitimate concern. Apple’s response is simply that they’ll refuse.”
(DIR) Post #AA9B9NHBnAXhJ1TaMK by staticvoidmaine@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T11:20:57Z
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@kev “Will Apple actually flatly refuse any and all such demands? If they do, it’s all good. If they don’t, and these features creep into surveillance for things like political dissent, copyright infringement, LGBT imagery, or adult pornography — anything at all beyond irrefutable CSAM — it’ll prove disastrous to Apple’s reputation for privacy protection.”
(DIR) Post #AA9BWZHFL51TBcYw5o by staticvoidmaine@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T11:25:10Z
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@kev Apple apologist or not, they seem to call out the important issues in the end.As an iPhone user, this is why I’m investing in and supporting the Linux phone ecosystem now, so that it may be usable some time in the near future in the event that things do take a turn for the even-worse-than-it-is-now from a privacy perspective.
(DIR) Post #AA9BzWOP8uJ2dciUxU by jle@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T11:29:51Z
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@kev Are you developing cognitive dissonance because you bought a MacBook? 😉
(DIR) Post #AA9Cih4OI9bOmftZ8i by XxAlexXx@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T11:38:32Z
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@kev Nice, thanks Kev. Dibs on the first guy to call attention on this
(DIR) Post #AA9D95nIzPc0zjUXHU by thewk@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T11:43:14Z
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@kev @sotolf After looking into what they are doing exactly I also took a deep breath and a step back. But it still concerns me, as some else pointed out here, iPhones, just like any other smartphone, have a ton of security issues and exploits could be used to put that kind of material onto someones phone.On the other hand one could just as easily target ones mail or social media accounts....
(DIR) Post #AA9EaBVvvnyqVVqf7w by sotolf@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T11:59:21Z
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@kev There is so easy to slant facts in one direction, so that something that sounds factual isn't, also big parts of the article was opinions, which by definition is not just facts.
(DIR) Post #AA9F7NUKQtWZCUvRLc by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T12:05:19Z
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@thewk @sotolf absolutely. I too am concerned, but as you said, if you take a step back and look at the facts, it’s nowhere near as bad as many people are making out.I think Apple are setting a dangerous precedent here, but there are advantages too. When my kids are 12, if they send pictures of their junk to their peers, I would DEFINITELY want to know about it.Also, Google have been doing something very similar for years.
(DIR) Post #AA9F9rm2nnCPi2OlLE by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T12:05:52Z
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@XxAlexXx absolutely! First read it from your post, but wanted to add my own commentary. Sorry, should have tagged you.
(DIR) Post #AA9FFxxohXDWe0oVAe by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T12:06:28Z
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@jle must. Buy. More. Apple. Stuff.
(DIR) Post #AA9FK8CcZkMHYdiy48 by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T12:06:52Z
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@jle 😂😂Must. Buy. More. Apple. Stuff.
(DIR) Post #AA9FQC8Ms6MvUKcsdc by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T12:08:43Z
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@staticvoidmaine absolutely. I’m concerned too. But many people are sharing misinformation and hyperbole about what apple are doing.Either they don’t understand the technical details, or they have just chosen to ignore them. Either way, it’s inaccurate.
(DIR) Post #AA9FUlRzVXDeB8z30y by sotolf@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T12:09:00Z
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@kev @thewk> I think Apple are setting a dangerous precedent here, but there are advantages too. When my kids are 12, if they send pictures of their junk to their peers, I would DEFINITELY want to know about it.This technology won't stop that though, as it uses hashes for known child abuse material, and will not catch new things, only stuff that is known.The biggest problem is with false positives here really as there are hash collisions to the algorithms that they use.
(DIR) Post #AA9FXXcZNhse9lFvNo by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T12:09:54Z
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@sotolf well, no, not really. The way hashing works is a fact and can’t be slanted in a different direction. Problem is, there’s too many people out there with an opinion that understand (or ignore) the facts.
(DIR) Post #AA9FavR9I7WUt9Wljk by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T12:10:22Z
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@sotolf well, no, not really. The way hashing works is a fact and can’t be slanted in a different direction. Problem is, there’s too many people out there with an opinion that don’t understand (or ignore) the technical details.
(DIR) Post #AA9Fg4LVaxYVy2LGjY by sotolf@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T12:00:13Z
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@thewk @kev The difference with social media is I don't expect social media to be private, things I share here or on reddit I treat as public, things I save on my phone I don't.
(DIR) Post #AA9Fg4ttX73rggQjKa by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T12:11:05Z
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@sotolf @thewk fair point, and I agree. But the data on your remains private, even with these changes.
(DIR) Post #AA9Fv2pNWQqlbPSE88 by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T12:14:16Z
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@sotolf you just kinda proved my point about people not understanding what’s happening here.There is the child abuse piece that they’re rolling out, but there is also the messaging alerts where parents are alerted to inappropriate images being send or received by minors.@thewk
(DIR) Post #AA9GDL4qPT1ZPlPafw by kev@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T12:17:41Z
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@sotolf hash collisions?? Even using MD5 they’re EXTREMELY rare (Apple aren’t using MD5). The chances of a collision are ridiculously minuscule. Plus, Apple have checks in place to combat that if it happens.There’s a threshold that an account has to hit before it’s flagged. So if there’s a single collision (which is extremely unlikely) it’s nigh on impossible that there will be multiple collisions on the same account.@thewk
(DIR) Post #AA9GFdurL10OQCq8Su by sotolf@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T12:18:09Z
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@kev How so? It's very easy to twist facts and truths around to get it sound different than what it is, if it wasn't we wouldn't have polititians.Also what will happen as a result of what they are implementing is not facts, rather predictions about the future.
(DIR) Post #AA9GIvqJ8yZstAHNh2 by XxAlexXx@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T12:18:34Z
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@kev No don't worry. But please spread this to everyone, cause misinformation is being spread on it.
(DIR) Post #AA9GWYkrmRJFKzET1k by sotolf@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T12:21:03Z
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@kev @thewk There is no need to patronise. I don't think where you got the idea that I was talking abt MD5 as I never mentioned it....No need to hit a strawman as I'm right here trying to talk with you, I also don't assume your position and attack those assumptions, I'm just trying to understand the whole thing without the apologist bent, I've read some good articles about it as well, and I agree it's not a big problem,My objection to this is mostly this article feels fishy to me somehow.
(DIR) Post #AA9GlnrFuSvGWSUPgW by sotolf@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T12:23:46Z
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@kev @thewk > There is the child abuse piece that they’re rolling out, but there is also the messaging alerts where parents are alerted to inappropriate images being send or received by minors.That somehow sounds more scary to me, but as long as it's something the parent controls and can deactivate I don't see too big problems with it.
(DIR) Post #AA9H7eXFFh27ymY47E by obsolete29@indieweb.social
2021-08-09T12:27:51Z
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@kev I don't think I agree with you here. Trusted sources matter because most people are not going to deep dive into everything being claimed. Maybe you're a crypto expert and have thoroughly pored over every bit of all the material published so far but I am not and have not. Overall though do agree that many have overreacted, myself included.
(DIR) Post #AA9HFMgJW2J4vKT3c8 by proactiveservices@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T12:29:13Z
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@kevI guess I've been conservative on what I've been reading, as none of that has corrected any misunderstanding I had. And it leaves me with the same extremely troubled feeling and disrespect for Apple.
(DIR) Post #AA9HQKrUcbIESuvaRk by XxAlexXx@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T12:31:13Z
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@kev got this gem from a youtube video by LOUIS ROSSMAN
(DIR) Post #AA9I8s0qjEJc1TXXqy by aral@mastodon.ar.al
2021-08-09T12:31:39Z
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@sotolf @kev @thewk It’s not scary as long as you don’t fear the parents. In some places this will lead to honour killings. Queer teens will be outed, possibly ostracised or worse. I wonder how abusive spouses will make use of this… and that’s with the scope that’s been announced in version. What’s going to happen to that scope once Putin, Jinping, Erdoğan, Orban, etc., have had their say?https://ar.al/2021/08/08/apple-is-trying-to-redefine-what-it-means-to-violate-your-privacy-we-must-not-let-it/
(DIR) Post #AA9IwAOx9FPxFCJwhc by Moon@shitposter.club
2021-08-09T12:48:22.741336Z
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@kev @sotolf @thewk it's not really a hash it's just image similarity. why would they need a neural network to just hash a file. also Apple does not really have checks because they have access to neither the image from the phone or the abuse image to compare.
(DIR) Post #AA9KKftBpTClo0iJu4 by Moon@shitposter.club
2021-08-09T13:04:01.057534Z
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@kev @sotolf @thewk daring fireball's distinction about image fingerprinting is pretty naive, in the end the image analysis is trying to overcome image cropping, framing, scaling, flipping and transformation, and color adjustment and still receive a match, that is going to entail some imprecision
(DIR) Post #AA9KodgKbIuVeAzHoe by shmibs@tomo.airen-no-jikken.icu
2021-08-09T13:09:22.818018Z
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@Moon @kev @sotolf @thewk (also seems pretty irrelevant, since once infrastructure exists it becomes used for other purposes by whatever government
(DIR) Post #AA9LKp2HvCrs7zbUW0 by Moon@shitposter.club
2021-08-09T13:15:14.940400Z
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@shmibs there is a fig leaf nonprofit that was started by the government that manages the csam database, and they are strangely protective of it. I and a few other people have asked for just the hash database and they will only provide access to it to services they deem are worthy. there's no risk in providing hashes but they won't.
(DIR) Post #AA9M9kAxkcdnp6wUq0 by lasombra@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T13:24:10Z
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@kev Sorry, I can't agree with Gruber on principle 🙂 I think Alex Stamos explanation is worth a read, https://twitter.com/alexstamos/status/1424054542879006728.
(DIR) Post #AA9N8JWlRYEeq71Qe0 by lasombra@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T13:35:17Z
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@kev Sorry, I can't agree with Gruber on principle 🙂 I think Alex Stamos explanation is worth a read, https://twitter.com/alexstamos/status/1424054542879006728.Or from someone who deals with CSAM on a regular basis, https://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/929-One-Bad-Apple.html.
(DIR) Post #AA9OaXYyx5rmQv5Bk8 by guizzy@pleroma.guizzyordi.info
2021-08-09T13:51:41.365028Z
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@Moon @shmibs Maybe they're worried that if abusers have the hashes they could scan their computers for them and know what files are exposing them and what they need to re-encode to change the hash.Though it's not like a smart one couldn't just frequently re-encode anyway and make the database useless on him.
(DIR) Post #AA9Oro84c5iAjbjJzc by Moon@shitposter.club
2021-08-09T13:54:49.536027Z
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@guizzy @shmibs if the hash worked it would be hard to modify the file to obscure it. how curious
(DIR) Post #AA9PL1ArBx0DafxcGG by tuckerc@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T13:59:45Z
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@kev thanks for sharing this. It was nice to read something sane around this whole debacle.I find that the thing that goes viral is not what _is_ happening but some idea of what _could_ happen (in this case all the "now the gov't can ask Apple to [insert crazy idea]!!!")
(DIR) Post #AA9WhO2hXzsAZ8l8Nc by jamie@mstdn.helios.red
2021-08-09T15:22:22Z
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@kev 🍿
(DIR) Post #AA9fJVoXtrUtJ4pQy8 by ixbo@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T16:58:43Z
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@kev Thanks for sharing! I agree, this is a great idea if Apple implements it as described. Your photos remain encrypted, but now Apple has a good chance of catching predators with effectively zero chance of anyone being falsely accused. The only catch is that we have to trust Apple to never do this with other types of material—political dissent, LGBT—and given the closed and proprietary system Apple maintains, we may never know if they do. But hasn't that always been the case?
(DIR) Post #AA9l81LfQjZ3MHDzBw by awesomesheep48@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T18:04:00Z
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@kev @rudolf Sorry, but you clearly don't understand what type of hashing they are using. They are using perceptual hashes, which are designed to have collisions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perceptual_hashing
(DIR) Post #AA9ow0Z0vCizGYzjmq by gabor@fosstodon.org
2021-08-09T18:46:38Z
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@kev I am currently more convinced by the "slippery slope" argument but I may not understand enough of the technical details so I am willing to keep an open mind about the tech...I am more concerned, however, about the fact that this institutionalizes and normalizes parents' spying on their own children. I believe that we would do better to educate our children about privacy in the digital age and the internet and then TRUST them. And until they are old enough to understand, no smartphone.
(DIR) Post #AABMJ2EgMWWGl3252m by rudolf@fosstodon.org
2021-08-10T12:35:21Z
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@kev I do understand what "nearly identical" means. And that is sufficient.
(DIR) Post #AABWlro1DdxsLhwoWu by vitSkalicky@fosstodon.org
2021-08-10T14:32:36Z
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@kevWell, your photos are not shown to a human, but to a machine that tells the human if it finds what he/she was looking for.Are they still private?@sotolf @thewk