Post A944mN2bEbjCWdJLou by the_trunchbull@spinster.xyz
(DIR) More posts by the_trunchbull@spinster.xyz
(DIR) Post #A93qGS8nL5GriY5xgm by the_trunchbull@spinster.xyz
2021-07-07T23:16:46.190457Z
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Wonderful - the alleged homosexual news site is promoting homophobia now. Political fakebians like Julie Bindel claim that it’s shameful for lesbians to accept ourselves as we are.https://lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/06/julie-bindel-on-political-lesbianism-when-lesbians-are-bullied-into-believing-that-our-sexuality-is-written-in-the-genes-it-results-in-a-distinct-lack-of-pride/
(DIR) Post #A93qGShXFv3nSILhq4 by mittimithai@neenster.org
2021-07-07T23:41:26.285951Z
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@the_trunchbull How is this homophobic? A bit long winded of course...you could summarize it by saying that we know that sexuality is a complex cognitive state not simply attributable to a genetics (virtually no behavior is). There are other plausible reasons for homosexuality, including (sound) cognitive decision making. I don't see where she is saying that it is shameful for lesbians to accept themselves as they are.
(DIR) Post #A93vHTwUcre7MieQnw by the_trunchbull@spinster.xyz
2021-07-07T23:43:50.265471Z
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@mittimithai It’s literally in the headline. Her main argument in the article is that lesbians cannot have pride; only bisexual or straight women who have chosen to call themselves lesbians can have pride. Real lesbians who know that conversion therapy does not work (because many of us have tried to convert ourselves at some time or other) must be ashamed of ourselves, in her view. She may not say it in so many words, but those of us who are familiar with the gender cult should be able to read between the lines.
(DIR) Post #A93vHUO8y3lQkTaVu4 by mittimithai@neenster.org
2021-07-08T00:37:38.965132Z
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@the_trunchbull I've always been a touch suspicious of her. Could never figure out what she disliked so much about Posie Parker and it came across as unhinged to me. Only to say that I would read what she is saying critically.I think I can see that there is a subtle dismissal of those who feel they are born that way (which could certainly be true) in this article; but she's trying to highlight the (often ignored) possibility of those who could choose to be that way so perhaps that is unavoidable here.A corollary of what she is saying is that we cannot peer inside the head of someone to know why they are a lesbian (or bisexual or gay). Sexuality is ultimately human behavior, we don't really have access to the underlying mental states of others, just how they behave. Like many of things of this nature, we don't necessarily believe that a person could know/remember if/why they did make a choice (we misremember many choices that are decades old or even milliseconds old in certain contexts). A genetic or hormonal basis is not known and sexuality must almost certainly be influenced by many noisy factors. She testifies to have made a conscious choice but she also doesn't say that she could reverse that choice. She does not deny that some may not have made the conscious choice."Every woman can be a lesbian..." is a dubious and unsupported universal claim from Bindel, for sure. Many woman I know wouldn't agree with that (many men, including me, could only imagine "choosing" homosexuality under unreal circumstances), but she ends it with "fine if they don't want to be". I get it, she's wrapped her speculation over some well-known large-scale questions on human sexuality. I can see that would be insulting, but I don't see her outright saying that those who claim that they made no conscious choice in their sexuality (and, at times, would have wished to be rid of it) cannot have pride. I do like that she is correctly pointing out that there is no understood genetic basis for homosexuality (the "gay gene" was a bad idea that was floated around in popular press for a long time).
(DIR) Post #A93yQdPZ5cunCYIzNg by the_trunchbull@spinster.xyz
2021-07-08T00:49:44.910688Z
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@mittimithai the (often ignored) possibility of those who could choose to be that wayIt’s not ignored at all. That’s how we’re portrayed by the Christian right and by the transgenderists who promote “unlearn your genital preference” rhetoric.Sexuality is ultimately human behavior, we don’t really have access to the underlying mental states of others, just how they behave.That’s true if you’re merely talking about who gets beat up or shouted at for being gay. But you forget the internal shame that living in a homophobic society creates for homosexuals and bisexuals. This is what often causes us to volunteer for conversion therapy or try to “trans the gay away,” it’s why we develop sex dysphoria, and it doesn’t help our mental health (or physical health, because the two are linked) in general.She testifies to have made a conscious choice but she also doesn’t say that she could reverse that choice.Sorry, but if you can choose to be a lesbian, you can also choose to not be a lesbian. She doesn’t need to explicitly say it.I don’t see her outright saying that those who claim that they made no conscious choice in their sexuality (and, at times, would have wished to be rid of it) cannot have pride.“When lesbians are bullied into believing that our sexuality is written in the genes it results in a distinct lack of pride.”“I love the sense that I had chosen my sexuality. Rather than being ashamed or apologetic about it, as many women are, I can be proud.”“There is no kink in my gene that resulted in my sexual orientation” (which sounds an awful lot like the political fakebian who once called me a “biological freak”).She contrasts “lesbian [political fakebian] feminists and the more conservative type of [born this way] gay man” - implying that anyone who believes they’re born this way must be a conservative, and therefore not pro-homosexual (i.e. self-loathing).So: did you read it, bud?
(DIR) Post #A93yQdvTB0R4nVET6u by mittimithai@neenster.org
2021-07-08T01:12:55.117805Z
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@the_trunchbull All the evidence to date suggests that sexuality is a complex part of behavior that isn't easily attributable to specific genetic factors. It's possible that genetic factors have had no contribution to every single lesbian in the world ever and there is nothing wrong with that. Bindel is right to point out this fact and that it's perfectly plausible for someone to choose a sexuality (as she has claimed she has). It's also possible that every single lesbian has the same genetic factor, even Bindel, and she just isn't consciously aware of it.It is not true that "if you can choose to be a lesbian, you can also choose to not be a lesbian", many choices we make do not seem to be easily reversible. Just look at preferences for food, they can be almost impossible to reverse with just conscious choice.I don't doubt that many homo/bisexual people suffer from shame and that has a social component, I don't think Bindel doubts that either. I don't know how that person could call you a "biological freak" given they can't look inside your DNA and neurons and come up with a conclusion that is somehow more accurate than the current body of research of human sexuality. In any case, Bindel seem to be (mostly) making an important point with some dubious casual claims as a side dish to me. I'm glad I got to hear your perspective on what she wrote.
(DIR) Post #A940tpNrr36QdkYkO8 by the_trunchbull@spinster.xyz
2021-07-08T01:25:36.120190Z
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@mittimithai On the off chance you’re not aware, “I’m glad I got to hear your perspective” is the way pretentious men always force an end to a conversation when they haven’t listened to you at all.The fact remains that pretending homosexuality is a choice calls lesbians’ boundaries into question and contributes to the normalization of violating those boundaries. It is not plausible for someone to choose their sexual orientation, as the science on conversion therapy shows, and pretending that it is just plays into homophobia from both sides of the aisle.
(DIR) Post #A940tpu7v6uIFneVfc by mittimithai@neenster.org
2021-07-08T01:40:36.200599Z
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@the_trunchbull I just didn't want to bug you anymore, happy to keep chatting.When we are talking about homosexuality and "choice", this is a well worn research track in human behavior. The only way to sum it up is "we don't really know". There are some guesses here and there (the strongest association we see in homosexual men is the older brother effect I think...but even that is really rather weak). Blanchard has recently guessed that early exposure of male junk might play a role etc. These are all open questions that anyone seriously looking at the area acknowledges there don't seem to be any satisfactory answers.When you say "It is not plausible for someone to choose their sexual orientation", you don't know any better than the awful person that called you a "biological freak". It may not have been a choice for you or me...it might have been a choice for someone else. People make all sorts of cazy choices that I couldn't imagine making (jumping out of an airplane, reconciling with horrible partners, getting tattoos etc.).When people testify about their own internal mental states, that's largely unfalsifiable. I do agree with you that there is certainly an association with the idea of "bad people choosing to behave badly" from religious groups, but that doesn't mean that we can't think much more honestly and carefully about ideas around choice and behavior.
(DIR) Post #A9423QMbpmfjtJ6vDM by Chronic-Yonic@spinster.xyz
2021-07-07T23:31:48.713026Z
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@the_trunchbull Lately she's been dropping bombs like this off and on. I used to like her, not anymore, same as Kathleen Stock.
(DIR) Post #A942FK2FBmt9jrG4vo by Lilitu@spinster.xyz
2021-07-08T01:50:58.622160Z
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@mittimithai @the_trunchbull So here’s the thing, dude.You’re saying that because science has not settled the question of why homosexuality occurs, it is ok to summarily dismiss lesbians saying that they are only attracted to women and they cannot change that.Why do you care so much whether science has explained why? What does that matter?This is the same shit as a man demanding to know “why” a woman doesn’t want to go on a date with him.It doesn’t matter. What matters is that she said no. He is not owed an explanation. She doesn’t have to justify that.It doesn’t matter why lesbians are lesbians. What matters is that they have told you they are lesbians and they do not have a choice about it.“Lesbian” means “woman solely attracted to women.” It does not matter why. That’s what the word means. And no one has any place demanding lesbians justify themselves, or taking their word from them and twisting it into something it’s not.We do not really know why some people are strictly homosexual. It does not change that they are.Men in labs do not get to decide the legitimacy of women’s consent.
(DIR) Post #A942FKW1P4hxEDBrLU by mittimithai@neenster.org
2021-07-08T01:55:41.788311Z
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@Lilitu @the_trunchbull "You’re saying that because science has not settled the question of why homosexuality occurs, it is ok to summarily dismiss lesbians saying that they are only attracted to women and they cannot change that."That isn't what I said and you know it. That's not what Bindel is saying either. Where does Bindel claim that she is attracted to anyone but women?The issue here seems to be whether she "chose" that or not...I can only assume she did given that's what she said and it would be impossible for me to falsify. Good on her. Good on those who don't think they chose it either.Science has looked at what "choice" means here and it comes up with very little that is compelling other than that it sure does look complicated. Science does not say anything about anyone's consent in this context.
(DIR) Post #A942IYCQyzsOXNZ2a8 by Rogue_Koala@spinster.xyz
2021-07-08T01:07:49.135149Z
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Bindel is like a lesbian version of Debbie Hayton. Will write literally anything to get published.Way to go... uproot the foundations of the LGB movement in one article.@the_trunchbull
(DIR) Post #A942IYgZAxym2pf6Y4 by the_trunchbull@spinster.xyz
2021-07-08T01:08:21.940271Z
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@Rogue_Koala Hey Koala, why do you think there are no “political gay men”?
(DIR) Post #A942IZ9HSCwpTt62Iy by Rogue_Koala@spinster.xyz
2021-07-08T01:26:04.759409Z
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Anal is far too big a commitment. @the_trunchbull
(DIR) Post #A942fVJjrgF0G6vT1s by Chronic-Yonic@spinster.xyz
2021-07-07T23:34:38.999159Z
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@the_trunchbull Two comments:
(DIR) Post #A942fVmS8vD3hAMOmm by Fullycaffeinated@spinster.xyz
2021-07-08T02:00:25.822848Z
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@Chronic-Yonic @the_trunchbull I tried to wrap my head around what she was saying and the most generous interpretation I could think of was that she 'chose' to accept her sexuality and live accordingly and not force herself into 'heteronormative' relationships? But then I remembered that she writes for a living and if that's what she was trying to convey, she would have done so.I could chose to do any number of things with any number of people, it won't change my sexual orientation. I just don't get it.
(DIR) Post #A942o1zqFTeDvagXxY by Fullycaffeinated@spinster.xyz
2021-07-08T02:01:58.406335Z
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@Chronic-Yonic @the_trunchbull I tried to wrap my head around what she was saying and the most generous interpretation I could think of was that she 'chose' to accept her sexuality and live accordingly and not force herself into 'heteronormative' relationships? But then I remembered that she writes for a living and if that's what she was trying to convey, she would have done so.I could choose to do any number of things with any number of people, it won't change my sexual orientation. I just don't get it.
(DIR) Post #A944mLrvanb6tFJJY0 by Ismat@spinster.xyz
2021-07-07T23:31:29.627718Z
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@the_trunchbull So Julie Bindel is not a lesbian? She is attracted to men but chooses women?
(DIR) Post #A944mMFgAUb24uQHZI by the_trunchbull@spinster.xyz
2021-07-07T23:33:05.202482Z
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@Ismat She claims that she “chose” to be a lesbian - anytime I see this claim, I seriously doubt it came from a real lesbian. If she is a lesbian, then she’s seriously misguided and her internalized homophobia has taken over.
(DIR) Post #A944mMeqeujHKyCNnc by Ismat@spinster.xyz
2021-07-08T00:13:45.239533Z
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@the_trunchbull I tried to be a lesbian in my teens but just couldn’t be attracted to women. Attraction just cannot be forced. If it could there wouldn’t be so many gay people in a homophobic world.
(DIR) Post #A944mN2bEbjCWdJLou by the_trunchbull@spinster.xyz
2021-07-08T00:30:39.657492Z
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@Ismat If it could there wouldn’t be so many gay people in a homophobic world.This is exactly what makes me so suspicious of women who claim they “chose” to be lesbians, and like Bindel, were oh so thrilled to do so (“I love the sense that I had chosen my sexuality”). If you realized at seven that you wanted to marry another girl and then spent the rest of your childhood and adolescence being told there was something wrong with you, or if you were indoctrinated into homophobia for your whole life before realizing you were one of those homos, you wouldn’t be thrilled. Even if you were one of the super-brave gold star lesbians who always knew and always accepted yourself, you’d at least be a little nervous about people’s reactions. And yeah, there are a few benefits to being a lesbian, like great sex, equal relationships, and not getting date raped, and maybe that helps to balance out the homophobia once you’re all grown up, but the idea that it’s all sunshine and rainbows and a great lifestyle choice just shows that these women have no idea what it’s like to grow up gay (consciously or not) in a homophobic society.
(DIR) Post #A944mNQLoIj7iIQJqC by Ismat@spinster.xyz
2021-07-08T01:08:42.760804Z
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@the_trunchbull Ikr? My friend was put in a mental asylum in India in the 90s for being lesbian. Who would choose that? The percentage of gay people across cultures are the same. Even across mammalian species. It has to be something biological and not simply a choice.
(DIR) Post #A945B4CSQEJ5KYhLF2 by Linnas@spinster.xyz
2021-07-08T00:53:15.096565Z
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@the_trunchbull An actual lesbian should submit an article to them titled "Homophobia disguised as political lesbianism".
(DIR) Post #A946i4CnWSJWrG9mVc by Ismat@spinster.xyz
2021-07-08T02:23:36.038330Z
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@mittimithai @the_trunchbull There are men in jail or army or whatever who have sex with other men. But they are not homosexual nor bi. They have no attraction to their partner. Homosexuality is about having attraction, romantic and physical to the same sex. It is innate. There are many species of mammals with the same rate of homosexuality as it is in humans. Are they also making a complex choice?
(DIR) Post #A946i4q9A9n0pIZCqG by mittimithai@neenster.org
2021-07-08T02:45:42.519818Z
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@Ismat @the_trunchbull "They have no attraction to their partner. Homosexuality is about having attraction, romantic and physical to the same sex. "It's very hard, probably impossible, to get in side someone's head and determine if they are being "romantic" or not. All we can do is look at people's behavior.Take a look at the recent Bailey study on bisexual men. There was an idiom in the gay community that "you are either gay, straight or lying". There are a lot limitations around Bailey's methods, but they are about the best you can do when trying to think things through carefully and assess is men can really be bisexual.What a shame it would have been if we didn't think through things carefully and critically and just listened to the idiom.
(DIR) Post #A947Jy4Yly3MqENNvk by Lilitu@spinster.xyz
2021-07-08T02:27:57.977467Z
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@mittimithai @the_trunchbull If lesbian means “women only attracted to women,” then choice is not involved. It doesn’t matter who you fuck, you’re only a LESBIAN if you are solely attracted to women. That is why lavender marriages never turned a lesbian straight.If you are claiming, in any direction, that one can “choose” lesbianism, then you are saying lesbians are lying when they say they didn’t choose to be lesbians, and that we have the right to overthrow the definition of their word that they created for themselves. And what you’re using to justify that stance, is the fact that we don’t have a firm scientific grasp of the root cause of homosexuality, because women’s experiences don’t matter unless they are justified by male institutions.Bindel said any woman could be same-sex attracted if she was just “open” to falling for women (which by the way, would not inherently make someone a lesbian even if it were true — bisexuals are not lesbians) I guess because it makes her feel better than dealing with her own internalized homophobia. She equates lesbianism with a “kink” over and over again, which says to me she’s got a lot of baggage about her orientation.But this creates a direct, open channel to claiming that lesbians could just be straight if they really wanted to be — if they were “open” to falling for a man.And that is why lesbians are being mutilated and raped en masse — to try to force them to be “open” to fucking men. This is just two sides of the same coin. If we are going to deny the agency of women to know their own orientation, then we are negating their consent.How about we stop telling women who they should be “open” to fucking, and just accept it when they tell us who they want to fuck?I will not allow one single inch on this slippery slope, and I don’t give a damn who comes from.
(DIR) Post #A947JyRFPcCXyazVIG by mittimithai@neenster.org
2021-07-08T02:52:33.594934Z
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@Lilitu @the_trunchbull Bindel is deriding those who blindly presume lesbianism is purely genetic and there is no cognitive choice involved. The evidence certainly supports her position on there being no obvious genetic attribution.'If lesbian means “women only attracted to women,” then choice is not involved.'I think attraction involves a lotta things. Some of it certainly seems subconscious (hard to understand what made us (not) attracted to someone). I am certain I am also made a lot of cognitive choices as well ("that person does drugs, not going anywhere near them", "they seem on a stage and singing and unbelievably wealthy, there is little point in being attracted to them" etc.).I'm not saying anything that people haven't long thought about when we discuss things like conscious choices, free will, attraction etc.
(DIR) Post #A9484C5iz1ubdmxme8 by Lilitu@spinster.xyz
2021-07-08T02:57:30.395622Z
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@mittimithai @the_trunchbull So what? How does that change that lesbian means “woman only attracted to women”?What you think doesn’t matter. Lesbians have said clearly that they are only attracted to women, and that they do not have the capacity to be attracted to men at all. That’s what the word means. Your thoughts are irrelevant.A woman who is attracted to men who finds herself “open” to women is possibly bisexual. She is not a lesbian.What Bindel is saying is self-loathing fueled nonsense based on her inability to shake the homophobic instilled belief that being a lesbian is a “kink.” She is throwing lesbians overboard to sooth her self-hate.The fact that science does not know why lesbians are lesbians is irrelevant to the fact that they are lesbians.
(DIR) Post #A9484CdOxoqnKEig8e by mittimithai@neenster.org
2021-07-08T03:00:55.193614Z
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@Lilitu @the_trunchbull I don't know what else to say. Bindel's *entire* piece is on the idea of why she is a lesbian, she claims it is a choice. Good for her, interesting to know. She is correct in pointing out the widely held misconceptions around a known genetic basis. I don't see any reason to disbelieve her. Her claim that all women can be is, obviously dubious.
(DIR) Post #A948F3uhjDZlSmzV2m by Ismat@spinster.xyz
2021-07-08T02:55:21.438584Z
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@mittimithai @the_trunchbull But we already know there is a section of the population who are attracted to both sexes. People have always known that. I was into urdu poetry a few years ago and there are plenty of poems about being in love with both sexes. The whole world is not taking some silly idiom of American gay community seriously.
(DIR) Post #A948F4Nlz8pOuwaiLw by mittimithai@neenster.org
2021-07-08T03:02:52.739244Z
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@Ismat @the_trunchbull Maybe some people did. Some people clearly did not. Finding the answer requires very careful thinking and some rather...unpalatable...experiments. Urdu poetry wouldn't itself be sufficient to challenge an idea about sexuality that seems to have been held by a lot of people.
(DIR) Post #A948cIKMIvigpM4JxA by Ismat@spinster.xyz
2021-07-08T03:04:33.040716Z
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@mittimithai @the_trunchbull It wouldn’t, but does tell you that homosexuality and bisexuality were recognized even in other cultures and other times.
(DIR) Post #A948cJKOaHLLvl5reK by mittimithai@neenster.org
2021-07-08T03:07:04.285544Z
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@Ismat @the_trunchbull Certainly. But it was perhaps not a totally crazy suspicion by gay men that men who engaged in both homosexuality and heterosexuality were really just homosexual deep down inside and just being heterosexual as an act of conformance.Seems that the best evidence we have suggests that it isn't true.
(DIR) Post #A9499GDdAGqZqOdoFE by the_trunchbull@spinster.xyz
2021-07-08T01:26:58.549510Z
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@Rogue_Koala You win Spinster today. 🏆
(DIR) Post #A9499GeDZQ79Ar52ga by polarisera@spinster.xyz
2021-07-08T03:13:02.255110Z
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@the_trunchbull @Rogue_Koala Great, Rogue has been reading Teen Vogue again.
(DIR) Post #A949WXNnW1NvjnUnvk by Lilitu@spinster.xyz
2021-07-08T03:06:42.438668Z
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@mittimithai @the_trunchbull She never says she felt she had a choice to be anything other than a lesbian by definition — a woman solely attracted to women.All she’s saying, pretty much, is that she decided not to let her inability to shake her internalized homophobia keep her in the closet. That’s it.And from that, she insists that any woman can be bisexual (mis-named as lesbian), because she has to believe that in order to stay out of the well of self-hatred of feeling like her sexuality is nothing but a kink.That’s sad, not liberating. And it’s a direct line to conversion therapy against lesbians.
(DIR) Post #A949WXtLcicdJeG06i by mittimithai@neenster.org
2021-07-08T03:17:14.560533Z
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@Lilitu @the_trunchbull I really think you are misinterpreting her. Watching her for a few minutes would tell you that she would never advocate for it. She's written *explicitly* against conversion therapy:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/21/gay-conversion-therapy-bigotry-lgbt-communityHow do you figure she is for it?
(DIR) Post #A94AofbNnO9OOa3npw by Lilitu@spinster.xyz
2021-07-08T03:18:17.208148Z
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@mittimithai @the_trunchbull And libfem TRA’s didn’t “mean” to promote legalizing perving on little girls. But that’s what they did.Feminist women can be wrong, too.
(DIR) Post #A956PYS926nOKDT4Ge by the_trunchbull@spinster.xyz
2021-07-08T13:27:57.195635Z
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@mittimithai It’s occurring to me that this might be an issue of clear language. I’m defining “lesbian” as “a girl or woman who only experiences attraction to other girls or women.” Are you defining it differently?
(DIR) Post #A956PZ0WyGIk2rYWrg by mittimithai@neenster.org
2021-07-08T14:17:04.689317Z
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@the_trunchbull Certainly not. Do you see anything from Bindel that says she is using a different definition? She doesn't say if she ever felt attracted to the opposite sex before she was 15...if she did and made the choice to only be attracted to women from that age forward I don't see why anyone wouldn't believe her or why she is not a lesbian in that case