Post A8UPXVvhDIBz5LDFNg by Seirdy@pleroma.envs.net
(DIR) More posts by Seirdy@pleroma.envs.net
(DIR) Post #A8MFl0FLFneU4NW2V6 by JordiGH@mathstodon.xyz
2021-06-16T22:46:21Z
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Sorry to bang on this drum again, but:Most of the mathematics taught in school around the world is completely useless, meaning, most of the people who go through it will never use most of it again once they're out of the school system.So why teach it?A lot of people argue, well, it's not the subject itself, but the structured way of thinking that it teaches.Alright then, so if we agree it's useless and it's just about exercising your brain, why not 12 years of formal chess instruction?
(DIR) Post #A8MFl0hLZg3NTEcP9U by craig@shitposter.club
2021-06-16T22:59:47.390007Z
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@JordiGH I'd say algebra is useful for anyone who buys things, which is everybody. Geometry is mostly useful, because anyone who makes things needs it.A year of probability and statistics would be good for general numeracy, more so than pre-calc.
(DIR) Post #A8MFl2wfDhUgRJnfIu by JordiGH@mathstodon.xyz
2021-06-16T22:49:23Z
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At least with 12 years of chess, we all can acknowledge beforehand that it's a diversion, just an exercise of the mind, not in itself useful.The current school curriculum that culminates with calculus is a curious product of the industrial revolution of the 19th century, where engineers were required who could understand mechanics and thermodynamics and ballistics. It's kind of a cargo-culted curriculum that has changed relatively little since then.
(DIR) Post #A8MFl5x82QeFld2Zwe by JordiGH@mathstodon.xyz
2021-06-16T22:52:16Z
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I say this as a former high school math teacher (I only did it for one year). Trying to convince every day a bunch of uninterested teens that they should be paying attention to a useless subject was the best way to get them even less interested in the subject.
(DIR) Post #A8MZAEeuhi7b8bDpR2 by ColinTheMathmo@mathstodon.xyz
2021-06-16T23:23:24Z
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@JordiGH You say:"The current school curriculum ..."Which country? And in that country, which curriculum?Things change slowly, but in the UK they are changing.But slowly.Mostly I agree with you, but you're not saying much that's new, and not offering an alternative.Forgive me, but I've heard it all before, and what I'd *really* like to hear is what you think should be in a maths curriculum?
(DIR) Post #A8MZAF8KwJeobqzKIS by mwt@mathstodon.xyz
2021-06-17T00:01:51Z
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@ColinTheMathmo @JordiGH It's hard to argue that they won't use multiplication, division, or even exponentiation again. Are we talking about basic Algebra? Is that useless? Trig?I'm confused about what people spend a lot of time on that is not useful. I think most of the time is spent on very basic things.
(DIR) Post #A8MZAFXVQjn3rulQWm by tpfto@mathstodon.xyz
2021-06-17T02:34:09Z
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@mwt @ColinTheMathmo @JordiGH I can safely say that unless you're a carpenter, engineer, or physicist, you likely won't ever need to touch trig after high school.
(DIR) Post #A8UPXUr3D4slke21VA by saramg@mastodon.technology
2021-06-17T02:13:30Z
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@JordiGH Uh... because we don't agree on that?Honestly, we don't teach enough maths. I've had to explain basic algebra to people who call themselves programmers. That shit ain't right.
(DIR) Post #A8UPXVKpQMhZEzxnuq by JordiGH@mathstodon.xyz
2021-06-17T02:14:34Z
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@saramg What did you have to teach? Most programmers never need any mathematics (although in my experience a lot of them really love logic/set theory/type theory/category theory, that kind of stuff).
(DIR) Post #A8UPXVvhDIBz5LDFNg by Seirdy@pleroma.envs.net
2021-06-20T21:27:02.876307Z
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@JordiGH @saramg An understanding of the behavior of functions (precalc, maybe introductory single-var calc) is quite useful for programmers when analyzing runtime, choosing algos, etc. Any time you have to deal with time-series data or optimization, calculus and even linalg could come in handy.Math is quite essential for enough parts of swdev for it to be very strongly recommended for everyone considering the field.
(DIR) Post #A8UPXY9awaUxz1jNK4 by JordiGH@mathstodon.xyz
2021-06-17T02:29:15Z
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@saramg I actually ask this with some interest because I'm writing a math book for programmers with the premise that we're going to be doing mathematics for its own sake, not because you're gonna be able to train a neural network or do any data science or whatever is in vogue these days.
(DIR) Post #A8UPssQekxegwlsfSK by Seirdy@pleroma.envs.net
2021-06-20T21:30:56.830628Z
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@JordiGH @saramg I highly recommend reading "A mathematician's lament"; the way schools teach math as a way to solve problems is so disconnected from what math actually is: a way to explore the most abstract and pure truths in existence.What we teach basically ensures that very few people will ever reach that point. It's the equivalent of teaching abstract music theory for a decade before students ever touch an instrument.
(DIR) Post #A8UQ1of08aJ5rgqwjI by JordiGH@mathstodon.xyz
2021-06-20T21:30:36Z
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@Seirdy @saramg This is not what most programmers do, though.Your program is slow. You run it in a profiler. You find a hotspot. You change the code to avoid the hotspot.Usually you just have to understand that double nested loops are quadratic, so don't do that.Most modern software development is just gluing one API to another.Virtually never does anyone sit down to prove the algorithmic complexity of something they wrote.
(DIR) Post #A8UQ1p8mLs7tM2mj8y by Seirdy@pleroma.envs.net
2021-06-20T21:32:33.438971Z
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@JordiGH @saramg I agree that most people don't do that; I think that most programmers *can* use this, especially if they pick certain subfields. People just entering the field might not know where they want to go yet, so we should expose them to this with a good amount of depth.
(DIR) Post #A8USK7LDcXxGvKSEKm by JordiGH@mathstodon.xyz
2021-06-20T21:43:15Z
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@Seirdy @saramg It's already something that receives mockery, btw.https://abstrusegoose.com/206
(DIR) Post #A8USK8FaEz2dk8pFBo by Seirdy@pleroma.envs.net
2021-06-20T21:58:16.037663Z
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@JordiGH @saramg tbf if you just want to use an existing game engine to make/mod a game you probably don't need a formal education in CS or math; college would be overkill.
(DIR) Post #A8VHF9UDJU3Xn63FK4 by saramg@mastodon.technology
2021-06-21T02:19:08Z
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@Seirdy @JordiGH Sure. I just wouldn't call that person a programmer, and I sure as hell wouldn't bestow a Software Engineer title.
(DIR) Post #A8VHF9vregArAqzKQC by JordiGH@mathstodon.xyz
2021-06-21T02:36:59Z
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@saramg @Seirdy Oh come now. I'm not a better coder because I know what a Riemann curvature tensor is, and even knowing what database normalisation is or how to implement a hash table don't really make me better at my day-to-day job.It's perfectly fine to be a mediocre programmer, and there's lots of us out there, and we get stuff done. https://youtu.be/hIJdFxYlEKE?t=296
(DIR) Post #A8VHFAMo2Vj0WPaqPo by Seirdy@pleroma.envs.net
2021-06-21T07:28:49.337877Z
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@JordiGH @saramg That's fair. I'm not saying that everyone (or anyone) needs to be a "10x" dev. I'm just saying that these skills aren't useless and can help. It's useful enough to recommend, but not useful enough to force on others.
(DIR) Post #A8VIX5jU6l2XJdJQBs by Seirdy@pleroma.envs.net
2021-06-21T07:43:17.155861Z
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@JordiGH @saramg Whoops, thought you were responding to me.Tldr: basically I agree with you to a degree. ML, time series analysis, various kinds of optimization, type theory, cryptography, verification, more cryptography...there are enough niches for a math background (esp. linalg, discrete math, and calc) to help that it should probably be recommended early on before people have decided if/where to specialize. These niches are NOT representative of what most people are doing, but some of them (cryptography, verification) could use a lot more love from the swdev crowd outside megacorps. BoringSSL and maybe OpenSSL will get all the latest algos/ciphers, but how about e.g. BearSSL? I do think that we could use a *lot* more developers experienced enough to contribute to such projects; BearSSL was just one example from the top of my head. "Mathy" libraries tend to have a disproportionately low "bus factor" because it takes a special background to build them well and maintain them.There's also the fact that understanding *why* something is in addition to *what* offers a valuable perspective. Not everyone needs to have this, but having one or two people around can help provide direction.
(DIR) Post #A8Vn7wUaQIxJzrpd8S by saramg@mastodon.technology
2021-06-21T13:15:20Z
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@JordiGH @Seirdy 1/ I never said anything about Riemann curvature tensors. I said basic foundational math skills. If your job is making UI elements look right, then you should know how to fit a circle inside a square, and that does involve math. Using an extreme case as a counterexample is dishonest and it's a bad faith argument. Do better.2/ You lost when you centered your argument on "it's okay to be mediocre". It's really not.
(DIR) Post #A8Vn8elRoyaTIu3iWe by JordiGH@mathstodon.xyz
2021-06-21T13:19:41Z
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@saramg @Seirdy Arguments aren't won or lost.And mediocrity is fine, you should watch that keynote. It's good.
(DIR) Post #A8VoIe7l9jGsAVp3QG by saramg@mastodon.technology
2021-06-21T13:24:02Z
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@JordiGH @Seirdy M'kay, sweetie. Have a cookie.
(DIR) Post #A8VoIeapPeWVcfQGjQ by JordiGH@mathstodon.xyz
2021-06-21T13:26:14Z
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@saramg @Seirdy So one thing that has been bothering me about your attitude so far is this condescension you've been having all along.Everyone else is stupid because they don't know math and if only they knew math they would be less stupid.I'm stupid because I think it's okay to not know math and now you're talking to me like a child.This condescending elitism is the worst advocacy for mathematics.
(DIR) Post #A8VoIf6jV22nDcLkSe by saramg@mastodon.technology
2021-06-21T13:36:26Z
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@JordiGH @Seirdy A tradesperson should know the tools of their trade. If a carpenter claims they have no use for saws, and builds inferior widgets because of that, then that carpenter is a fool for ignoring the tools available to them. A programmer who ignores math is a fool for exactly the same reason.And that flavor you're tasting is nutmeg. I know it's a bit christmasy, but I think it gives the cookies a real nice touch.
(DIR) Post #A8XG9vyqOCeuoiFKqG by JordiGH@mathstodon.xyz
2021-06-17T00:11:03Z
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@mwt @ColinTheMathmo Yeah, they won't use multiplication, division or exponentiation again. Most people never do that.And I did offer an alternative: chess. I'm kind of half-serious about that. Maybe not 12 years, but I think it would be fun to teach it.I would also spend a lot more time on linguistics. That's useful and interesting, because language is one thing we do use every day.
(DIR) Post #A8XG9wl3UxDvEEnpzM by mwt@mathstodon.xyz
2021-06-17T00:18:56Z
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@JordiGH @ColinTheMathmo When they take out a car, figure out how much to save for retirement, work out a budget,...Not even that, when they need to figure out how many boxes of pasta they need to entertain 6 guests or how many apples they need for two pies. When you need to figure out how long a Costco pack of toothpaste will last.I would say that there is almost no one who does not use multiplication or division in their lives. You can barely function as a person -- never-mind do your job.
(DIR) Post #A8XG9xJRR6jGwstIaO by JordiGH@mathstodon.xyz
2021-06-17T00:21:53Z
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@mwt @ColinTheMathmo Calculators. Or... just kind of wing it.Most people have size sense without needing to perform an actual multiplication. They know the size of their family or dinnerparty, they have an idea of how many boxes of pasta they bought last time, and they don't really need to do a careful multiplication to apportion pasta per guest. It's not a big deal if there's slightly not enough pasta or if there's too much.
(DIR) Post #A8XG9xmVh1yuP2UVtY by mwt@mathstodon.xyz
2021-06-17T00:29:46Z
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@JordiGH @ColinTheMathmo It's not a matter of care though. It's just a basic thing that you have to actually learn. What you're pointing out is adults figure out multiplication even without formal education because it's just that important.Even if this works with pasta, it clearly does not work with even the most basic levels of financial literacy. Without education, people do not understand interest (at all) because exponentiation is not as obvious as multiplication.
(DIR) Post #A8XG9yIPmPVBzzPzcm by JordiGH@mathstodon.xyz
2021-06-17T00:32:06Z
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@mwt @ColinTheMathmo My experience is that people don't care that much about interest either. They just get their financial advisor to actually do it for them. Or, again, get a computer to do it for them. Nobody I know sits around and manually works out an annuity schedule.
(DIR) Post #A8XG9yjMAF3LLY1VcO by mwt@mathstodon.xyz
2021-06-17T00:44:24Z
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@JordiGH @ColinTheMathmo You could make this argument for anything though: Most people don't need to learn how to read. They can pay someone to read for them.Why teach children to write when there are so many journalism majors out there who can write for them?Kids don't need to learn the civics required for voting either. They can just consult their election advisor.The truth is that people need to understand basic Math and the lack of basic mathatical literacy is already a serious issue.
(DIR) Post #A8XG9zHO7iH735wgfA by ailurocrat@scicomm.xyz
2021-06-21T17:31:05Z
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@mwt @JordiGH @ColinTheMathmo even basic math literacy can pass people by if their brain doesn't work that way...i have been bad at math forever. Pretty much why i can't code.
(DIR) Post #A8XG9zqU1ELcnwMiMi by JordiGH@mathstodon.xyz
2021-06-21T17:32:38Z
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@ailurocrat @mwt @ColinTheMathmo If you really can't code because you can't do math, that really disproves my argument.So do you think if you learned more math you'd be able to code?
(DIR) Post #A8XGA0IUL6kWCnT516 by Seirdy@pleroma.envs.net
2021-06-22T06:26:02.305432Z
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@JordiGH @ailurocrat @mwt @ColinTheMathmo Actually, implementing mathematical concepts in code is how I learned math (and to a lesser extent, physics). And in doing so I learned a lot of CS and swdev concepts. There was a lot of cross-pollination both ways.Synergy between fields and hyper-specialization are the main endgames when it comes to education.