Post A8S5gnii3EeHT6My36 by sunspot@spinster.xyz
(DIR) More posts by sunspot@spinster.xyz
(DIR) Post #A8S2XtZKdX2v8h2qki by 0cean@spinster.xyz
2021-06-19T17:48:56.365455Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
I was watching a Benjamin Boyce and Megan Murphy livestream and he started talking about the whole bell curve theory thing, where he thinks that men are more likely to be varied in intelligence, like some of them highly stupid, but also some of them geniuses, whereas women are more "stable" or in the middle. What do you think of this theory? I think it's fucking stupid honestly.
(DIR) Post #A8S2YFWb0NvhEZvyXg by terf_fret@spinster.xyz
2021-06-19T17:57:55.697607Z
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@0cean How the heck is he measuring it? I've known a LOT of men who have an inflated sense of their intelligence, and brilliant women who doubt themselves.
(DIR) Post #A8S3MMRNZAsjA8OBGq by FloozyDarlington@spinster.xyz
2021-06-19T17:52:32.824060Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@0cean all men seem like they are capable and intelligent until you tell them 'no'. A bit like children really. P.S children are dumb af
(DIR) Post #A8S3MMwZhBpqisz5tY by 0cean@spinster.xyz
2021-06-19T17:54:35.745953Z
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@FloozyDarlington Well he's saying that there are more genius men than genius women. The theory is that there is a wider variation of intelligence in men than in women. I think this is a weird conclusion to draw, because how are we even measuring intelligence, and where does the fact that women have been oppressed fit into it? How can we measure women's potential when it's always been stifled and undermined?
(DIR) Post #A8S3MNKKGspluY63uq by sunspot@spinster.xyz
2021-06-19T18:09:08.481466Z
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@0cean @FloozyDarlington Theoretically, men were more disposable to society so you can have a greater range of characteristics and not lose “fitness” as a species if some of them are negative and the individual ends up not reproducing because of it. There’s a lot of evidence for it tbhIt is true that men are more variable but it’s not that dramatic. The average man is closer to the average woman than he is a genius.
(DIR) Post #A8S4301amfH05oev9k by 0cean@spinster.xyz
2021-06-19T18:14:08.822995Z
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@sunspot @FloozyDarlington What is the evidence for it?
(DIR) Post #A8S430OzNfzLGNbbcm by sunspot@spinster.xyz
2021-06-19T18:16:51.089692Z
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@0cean @FloozyDarlington https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variability_hypothesis
(DIR) Post #A8S4jiS3znqK2jPS3E by 0cean@spinster.xyz
2021-06-19T18:18:38.074854Z
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@sunspot @FloozyDarlington How are they measuring intelligence though?
(DIR) Post #A8S4jiuQIMWnSgg6Fs by sunspot@spinster.xyz
2021-06-19T18:24:34.285280Z
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@0cean @FloozyDarlington There’s multiple studies about it under the Modern subsection
(DIR) Post #A8S51BmkBgsvwUPl8y by 0cean@spinster.xyz
2021-06-19T18:25:09.955117Z
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@sunspot @FloozyDarlington So do you believe women are less intellectually capable than men?
(DIR) Post #A8S51CHEMLGtT2g6fA by sunspot@spinster.xyz
2021-06-19T18:27:43.854664Z
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@0cean @FloozyDarlington That’s not the hypothesis and that’s not what I said. Variability means there will be more extremes at the tails in both directions while most will still cluster at the average
(DIR) Post #A8S5gnCnxr7zs9RUJs by 0cean@spinster.xyz
2021-06-19T18:30:51.987713Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sunspot @FloozyDarlington I can understand the hypothesis sort of but I think it's used to say that women do not tend to outsmart men and that I don't believe. I think that yeah, maybe there are more extremes with men, but that doesn't mean that the smartest people in the world are all men or that they deserve the inflated recognition they constantly get.
(DIR) Post #A8S5gnii3EeHT6My36 by sunspot@spinster.xyz
2021-06-19T18:35:14.325184Z
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@0cean @FloozyDarlington It can be hard to tell tone online. And yes, I agree that this fact is often used by men with an agenda. Often average men too. 😋Variability also means that men are also more likely to be stupid. And genius doesn't mean intelligent or cunning in all areas of life. The highest IQ man I know became an AGP
(DIR) Post #A8S8VZu3NkHhID1292 by 0cean@spinster.xyz
2021-06-19T18:53:21.026770Z
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@sunspot @FloozyDarlington I don't think men are more likely to be genius' than women are. If it was a map I would just say maybe there is more of a gap in the middle for men whereas women it could be more spread out. I can entertain this concept, but most of the research was likely done by men with an agenda so I don't necessarily believe it myself.
(DIR) Post #A8S8Vacihg0tWjuhlY by sunspot@spinster.xyz
2021-06-19T19:06:50.112792Z
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@0cean @FloozyDarlington Measuring cognition is loaded with social baggage, sure. The studies showing greater male variability when it comes to say cholesterol levels or birth weight are using more objective criteriaThere is some validity to the hypothesis
(DIR) Post #A8S8w4jDOgrAQNa4rA by DoctorDee@spinster.xyz
2021-06-19T18:23:09.511976Z
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@0cean He got this from Larry Summers' women in STEM lecture in 2005. "I didn't think for a moment that I had proven anything, but only that these are things that need to be studied."Same old arguments that women just aren't fit to do STEM. No acknowledgement at all of how men continue to deliberately harass and attack women out of STEM work. https://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/18/us/harvard-chief-defends-his-talk-on-women.html
(DIR) Post #A8S8w5Mv14cEPW9mk4 by 0cean@spinster.xyz
2021-06-19T18:23:57.082349Z
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@DoctorDee So you think it's bullshit too? What is your specific opinion?
(DIR) Post #A8S8w670FjTkiRiaZc by DoctorDee@spinster.xyz
2021-06-19T18:27:20.233305Z
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@0cean Of course it is bullshit--or, more precisely, motivated reasoning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motivated_reasoningMen who raise these and other abstract theories to 'explain' why there are fewer women in STEM, or in other 'male dominated' roles, are the same men who have zero interest in actual evidence of discrimination, harassment, bullying, stealing credit, and any number of other things that women who dare to do this kind work face. I am living proof, every woman I know in the field is living proof, and plenty of actual research backs up our experiences. Let's work on what is actually in front of our noses before coming up with some idea about how women are innately unsuited to 'male' roles.
(DIR) Post #A8S8w6kLtQxEgU80uG by EmmyNoether@spinster.xyz
2021-06-19T19:10:29.137654Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@DoctorDee @0cean Always makes me think of my undergrad physics tutor - female astronomer, FRS! When she started her teaching career, many of her male colleagues believed in the "longer tails in the male population" theory - men were more likely to get 1sts or 3rds, women were conscentious dull plodders who got 2.1s. They held up decades of exam results as "proof" of this.She campaigned tirelessly for blind marking, where the markers don't know the names (or sexes) of those whose scripts they are marking. She won. Blind marking became standard.Suddenly women and men started getting 1sts, 2nds and 3rds in exactly the same proportions as one another.
(DIR) Post #A8SS6QRfPIzvns1PZg by snerber@spinster.xyz
2021-06-19T22:39:42.017326Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@0cean Boyce also interviewed a "honey Badgers" mra who cited women's having higher IQs on average and earning more college degrees as evidence of systemic misandry as Boyce nodded along so...Wherever there's evidence of male intelligence or success it's proof of their natural superiority. Wherever there's evidence of female intelligence or success it's gynocratic oppression.
(DIR) Post #A8U7v7BV4IRo7Ai1NA by GrumpyOldNurse@spinster.xyz
2021-06-20T18:09:40.331199Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@0cean smelled BS to me. No observable data to back that up, just an instant reaction.
(DIR) Post #A8U7zaWJwMgsFxa3ma by FloozyDarlington@spinster.xyz
2021-06-19T18:06:29.369138Z
2 likes, 2 repeats
@0cean Well I mean it's just constant goal shifting isn't it. Women and girls are told all the time that "girls are more mature than boys" even though women are "toO emOtioNal" which is a way to make it seem OK to be having sex with girls who haven't even reached adulthood yet. Women and girls are told all the time that they are great multi-taskers, which is a way to normalise the work-load women take on in the home (cooking, cleaning, child-rearing, being a therapist and/or conventional work) which to me seems like a way to keep women busy and in the home so they aren't as likely to make massive achievements (still do anyway because women rock). It's easy to say that women aren't geniuses as often because in comparison there are less accomplishments compared to men. Look a bit closer though and you realise it's fucking bullshit. So many discoveries made by women, where men have stolen credit, as well as the fact that just over half a century ago, women who were married were not allowed to attend university. A lack of birth control and social stigma would often force young women into marriage, thereby giving up education. Many literary geniuses of the classic era used male pseudonyms because they weren't allowed to be published (still do to an extent to achieve more sales). Women not being allowed to open a bank account until the 1970s stifling independence and thus the ability to pursue academic achievements. I could go on and on. It all reminds me of the quote from the Wife of Bath - "who painted the lion, tell me who?". It's easy for men to big themselves up as the victors when they were the only ones allowed to create the history for millennia.
(DIR) Post #A8U82moagYx9FxeRkW by GrumpyOldNurse@spinster.xyz
2021-06-20T18:11:03.267685Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@FloozyDarlington @0cean woman as NPC, we are whatever the man needs us to be at any given moment.
(DIR) Post #A8U84poIWJBD7pUVQO by 0cean@spinster.xyz
2021-06-19T18:10:49.678176Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@FloozyDarlington That picture you added is so perfect and makes me smile. I agree with absolutely everything you say here, and yeah, the theory that men have the ability to be smarter, even when paired with the idea that they also have the ability to be more stupid, seems like something you couldn't even measure, especially not in our current or past social climate. The stupidity part just sounds like socially conditioned laziness because there are no real standards for them, and the intelligence part just sounds like a justification for the uneven distribution of wealth, recognition, and celebration within society.
(DIR) Post #A8U8inyEmNVz0FCQwy by Rogue_Koala@spinster.xyz
2021-06-20T18:16:06.743817Z
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Camilla paglia says something similar. He probably got the idea from her. She states it as this is the reason there are no female Mozart's but also no female jjack the rippers. @0cean
(DIR) Post #A8U8ioSix1twWnSmTA by polarisera@gleasonator.com
2021-06-20T18:18:38.758948Z
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@Rogue_Koala @0cean Men suffer from an abundance of certainty. It creates a bell curve of lucky guessers and big pile of losers. You should know the "error curve" is also a bell curve.
(DIR) Post #A8UDGr5e5SuULA9lnk by Gnomeshatecheese@spinster.xyz
2021-06-20T18:52:18.297647Z
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@0cean It is possible, of course. There are data out there that support it and I don’t really have the competence to question the data itself. The basic idea is that since men are more expendable evolutionarily, “nature” can afford to take more risks in their “design”. It’s not an insane idea as such, but I would expect it to be difficult to prove a causal relationship.However, what is rarely mentioned is the possibility that social factors have played a part in creating these conditions. I’m also not in a position to claim that this absolutely is the genesis, but I believe it can not be ruled out. And as such, speaking about the bell-curve difference as an established biological fact is premature.
(DIR) Post #A8UDGvPI2N05jFNVya by 0cean@spinster.xyz
2021-06-20T18:54:22.187396Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Gnomeshatecheese If there is truth to it, I think it's misconstrued. People seem to think it means that only men can reach a certain level of brilliance and I don't believe that at all.
(DIR) Post #A8UDHPoqxtH43DZLzE by Gnomeshatecheese@spinster.xyz
2021-06-20T18:56:45.979382Z
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@0cean That is a different matter then. The original idea is -if I understood correctly- that there are more men at either extreme end, not that there are no women at the extremes.
(DIR) Post #A8UDHQIHCUoHWTKqqe by terf_fret@spinster.xyz
2021-06-20T19:05:19.214080Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Gnomeshatecheese @0cean But men have prevented women geniuses from shining for millennia. So how does one factor that in?
(DIR) Post #A8UDgB70marxg2s1tw by Gnomeshatecheese@spinster.xyz
2021-06-20T19:08:16.490671Z
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@terf_fret Like I said, I don’t think causality (biology->intelligence outcomes) has been properly demonstrated. @0cean
(DIR) Post #A8UDgBdGqefpI5xnBQ by Raunchel@spinster.xyz
2021-06-20T19:10:52.698089Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Gnomeshatecheese @terf_fret @0cean the whole bell curve thing is hilariously stupid. The only thing there is to it is that, as a society, we allow more latitude to men to behave in different manners. Although it is striking how much better girls do in school...
(DIR) Post #A8UDgC5d9DMIi3ERO4 by 0cean@spinster.xyz
2021-06-20T19:11:47.522045Z
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@Raunchel @Gnomeshatecheese @terf_fret Omg! so true. And then when we all hit puberty, women "magically" become mediocre intellectually.
(DIR) Post #A8UXLsyYVBNGigW4ga by Butterfly_tsuji@spinster.xyz
2021-06-20T18:43:11.734764Z
3 likes, 1 repeats
@0cean B.Boyce is a misogynic ass holethrough out history men have stolen or usurped woman’s work claiming it their own. Of the top of my head I know Albert Einstine’s wife was quiet intelligent and helped him with his theories but of course most people don’t know about her, and he didn’t treat her very well.Sigman Freud’s Daughter, Anna Freud came up with defense mechanism “which is still taught and though to be accurate, if im not mistake. Most of Freud’s idea’s were BS. When defense mechanism are taught is Psy they are presented as Freud’s work. Edward Charles Pickering - had an all woman team in astronomy . Of course their names are not known but his is lol [ The woman were named, henriette swan leavitt, Anna Jump Cannon , Williamina FlemingIm blanking right now on the list of books, that were written by woman that were stolen by their husbands that took credit…ive got science history brain right now. Most woman created all the genre of novels, the first novel was written by a woman as well woman. Men quickly took over that field, and its not being taken back my woman [kinda] with the popularity of YA. Teenager girls are ridiculed horrendously for liking those books though , oh but make fun of comic books [which has a large male audience] and they cry bloody murder. The list of stolen idea’s and inventions that woman made which were abusively colonized by men is probably endless long.
(DIR) Post #A8UZbxg4zI4PqPfSAS by terf_fret@spinster.xyz
2021-06-19T22:50:48.653086Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@0cean You know, I think he's getting confused by the fact that there are just MORE awful men than women in the world. And because there aren't as many awful women, he thinks that means there aren't as many brilliant ones either.And despite his many interviews, he still doesn't quite get the impediments for women.
(DIR) Post #A8UmIIf2YsQ0XF8Wf2 by 0cean@spinster.xyz
2021-06-20T19:10:40.216831Z
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@Gnomeshatecheese @terf_fret Interesting. It sounds like you have more understanding of this subject that I do. I've only heard this theory twice, and both times it sounded very much like the person pushing it was really pushing the idea that there are many more "male genius minds" and B.Boyce even went as far as to say that it's the reason there are more rich men in the world because of their intelligence and productivity. So clearly to me it's going to sound like bullshit. It sounds like there is more to the theory than that and I, like them, have misinterpreted the meaning.
(DIR) Post #A8UmIJGyHqlAQssome by Robotpuppy@spinster.xyz
2021-06-20T19:44:07.417790Z
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@0cean @Gnomeshatecheese @terf_fret Just leaping into this section of the debate (like @gnomeshatecheese I don't feel confident enough to read apart the bell curve stuff because I don't know enough about the studies done) with anecdotal evidence to the contrary re successful rich men etc.I am a very 'intelligent' person. I went to top schools and university, worked in top finance firms. I don't like using this as part of my arguement because far too many people (*cough* usually men ime *cough*) use this sort of thing to say they're better than other people and it's just not true, it's a facet of your person like your height or food preferences. So apologies, but in this context it means that I can wholeheartedly say that rich successful business men are... not hugely clever as a group. Maybe slightly above average? A good grasp of what numbers/amounts mean is useful but the real 'skills' they possess over and above the general public are twofold.They are good with people. They understand how to motivate, manipulate, and what move people will make next.They come from rich backgrounds. Batman as a superhero with his superpower being ridiculously fucking rich is bang on. Wealth begats wealth.I know that anecdotal evidence isn't very strong, but it's a start.My own suspicions on the matter are that the intelligence tests applied are catered towards men (and probably particularly men from wealthier backgrounds in more developed nations). Even being able to say what intelligence actually constitutes is so hard. And there's things that are inherent, and things that are taught. How do you control for that? How do you control for your biases in defining intelligence - an example I'm always drawn to is men being more spatially skilled but dressmaking being a 'womanly' skill. Making a 3d shape out of 2d flexible components is really tough! You need spacial skills to do it!
(DIR) Post #A8UmIJiybjA3pjzBR2 by 0cean@spinster.xyz
2021-06-20T19:54:30.925974Z
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@Robotpuppy @Gnomeshatecheese @terf_fret Marilyn Vos Savant has an incredibly high IQ (apparently the highest IQ measured) and she said that she believes IQ cannot be measured and that intelligence tests are unreliable.
(DIR) Post #A8UmIKFEfmxvRn4wiW by Flick@spinster.xyz
2021-06-20T21:08:53.833971Z
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@0cean @Robotpuppy @Gnomeshatecheese @terf_fret Randomly jumping in here (broadly agree with Gnomes, fwiw), because I have to comment on the fact that the surname of the person with the highest ever measured IQ is “savant”. Must run in the family!
(DIR) Post #A8UmjPng7r9IUp6f0S by Gnomeshatecheese@spinster.xyz
2021-06-20T19:18:41.502991Z
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@0cean If I had more understanding on this particular topic, I wouldn’t be this circumspect. I do have some understanding on how research works and the difficulties involved in collecting data about humans. Part of the problem is that research gets misrepresented in popular commentary shockingly often, and so I don’t think I’m in a place to evaluate the original claims, as I haven’t seen the original data. @terf_fret
(DIR) Post #A8UmjQDCaxZ7lz32n2 by 0cean@spinster.xyz
2021-06-20T19:25:10.883929Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Gnomeshatecheese @terf_fret People do talk about it as an established biological fact and yes I would need to see the specific data to draw more stable conclusions. What I've read so far sounds like a lot of mixed results with little consistency in the data. Some of the earlier research was used to say women should only be trained for mediocre jobs and positions, so as much as I respect researchers, some of these ones sound fucking biased.Personally, I have seen a lot of variation in women as well. We also don't have a clean slate for measurement when women's behaviour is routinely controlled.