Post A8Mm7PnY8AXGDlFMx6 by bornwithovaries@spinster.xyz
(DIR) More posts by bornwithovaries@spinster.xyz
(DIR) Post #A87jhaeI3FrV464i5Q by the_trunchbull@spinster.xyz
2021-06-09T22:17:23.525942Z
3 likes, 1 repeats
This is going to be hard for some of you to hear, but arguing that “transition” should be legal is anti-gay bullshit.This issue is about Big Med and Big Pharma. Period. If medical marketers could profit from selling liposuction to anorexic (i.e. mentally ill) people, they’d do it. If they could profit from getting doctors to push suicidal (i.e. mentally ill) people off bridges, they’d do it. They’ve discovered that they CAN profit from selling “dysphoric” (i.e. mentally ill) people for parts, so they’re doing it. Why are you okay with that? Is it because most “dysphoric” people are LGB? Is it because you don’t care about this issue as long as AGPs leave you alone? What’s not clicking?For those arguing “bodily autonomy”–you’d better also believe that anorexics have the right to liposuction, depressed people have the right to physician-assisted suicide, and alcoholics have the right to prescription alcohol. Otherwise, you’re a hypocrite.For those who think you’re being helpful by narrowing it down to severe, lifelong “dysphoria” cases–all you’re doing is protecting the kids who turn out to be straight and desist on their own. You’re still endorsing Big Med and Big Pharma selling LGB people their own deaths.Get the facts before you argue with me:LGB youth are more likely to develop “dysphoria,” and less likely to desist when left to their own devices. Wallein and Cohen-Kettenis 2008 / Singh, Bradley, and Zucker 2021Homophobic bullying increases the chance of claiming a “trans identity.” Delay et al. 2017“Trans” medicalization results in “considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behavior, and psychiatric morbidity.” Dhejne et al. 2011, which by the way is a study of the “old-school transsexuals” some of you want to “bring back.”“Trans” medicalization shortens life expectancy and has a whole host of other horrific physical effects, in addition to making mental illness worse, not better. See section vii. of this document.
(DIR) Post #A87jhbD1y5eQnqKSEi by Lilitu@spinster.xyz
2021-06-09T22:30:50.580883Z
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@the_trunchbull This. There is no version of reality where ANY medical “gender” treatment would pass muster for ethical medical care if anyone actually took the time to evaluate it.These procedures do not cure dysphoria. They are not properly tested. They are irreversible. They are being done on pubescent minors too young to give informed consent even if it were possible to be informed (it’s not, due to aforementioned lack of testing). They destroy major body functions, causing everything from bone disease to incontinence to cognitive impairment to total loss of sexual and reproductive function.Name me some other medical procedure that’s this bad, that doctors are still legally allowed to perform. I’ll wait.Should doctors do elective lobotomies on kids because the parents think they’re too high energy? Should doctors electively cut off a psychotic person’s legs upon demand?The only reason this is being permitted is because 90% of the child victims are same-sex attracted.
(DIR) Post #A87mcfZAdneajN1eIy by Chronic-Yonic@spinster.xyz
2021-06-09T22:37:36.261320Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@Lilitu @the_trunchbull Very true, I too have read posts from trans that say that even though they went all the way in surgery, it did not cure their dysphoria. That's why the medical professionals, especially psychiatry and psychology should get their act together and look into this to find ways of making this less painful. Right now, they're all shoving patients to the surgery rooms and the drugstores.
(DIR) Post #A87mcg1Axg3U8E80xM by Lilitu@spinster.xyz
2021-06-09T22:39:36.302800Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@Chronic-Yonic @the_trunchbull Yup. Bodily autonomy is not a defense for this. I haven’t seen anyone saying people should criminally charged for doing shit to their own body.But when you have doctors are participating and doing this TO people, when their entire job is to do no harm, and to have the education and ethics to provide the best care, it’s no longer a bodily autonomy issue. It’s an issue of being an accomplice in the mutilation of vulnerable people.
(DIR) Post #A87oLbQYyYCMsbzOMa by the_trunchbull@spinster.xyz
2021-06-09T22:23:27.332844Z
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To be clear, this isn’t aimed at anyone who picked C because they think we won’t be able to successfully outlaw medicalization. That’s fair. But the comments on that poll, both this week and six months ago, contained some truly stupid justifications for keeping it legal. “Bodily autonomy,” “some people benefit,” “the least bad option,” “old-school transsexuals,” “not enough evidence”–all absolute horseshit. Get a grip.
(DIR) Post #A87oLc3Cet6goS4Fai by Chronic-Yonic@spinster.xyz
2021-06-09T22:26:54.507986Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@the_trunchbull Yep that trans thing is plainly put Conversion Therapy 2.0. Anyone that sides even a little with this is not trying to protect young gays or young lesbians. Period.
(DIR) Post #A87zFpFXlr4zVVHayW by hearthmoon@spinster.xyz
2021-06-10T01:44:12.964716Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@the_trunchbull I agree. I don't think safer alternative treatments will be developed for dysphoria while so many are invested in this particular treatment, for financial and other reasons. I would support some limited "gender affirmation" surgery, with certain other caveats, if it was shown that it worked. But there is no evidence. Anecdotal testimonies don't cut it for something this invasive. I predict California, ground zero for the battiest extremes of this, will be the first to outlaw all of these surgeries, even for adults. Lawsuits will achieve what reason can't. Unfortunately, I think the doctors and therapists have protected themselves through legislation, but the lawyers will figure out somebody with deep pockets to sue.
(DIR) Post #A87zpNpvAbkwuZFlfU by the_trunchbull@spinster.xyz
2021-06-10T01:53:16.524384Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@hearthmoon 100%. Dangerous drugs and surgeries are warranted if they are proven effective and the benefits outweigh the negative effects. But with "trans" medicalization, we have a whole boatload of evidence to show that its effects are often deadly, that it harms mental health ... and no evidence (not counting politicized fake science with bad methodology) to show that it actually alleviates the one problem it's sold as a cure for.Even if it did work, I'd want good old cognitive behavioral therapy to be thoroughly studied as an option first, because CBT is unlikely to have negative side effects.
(DIR) Post #A880224ZOlJTB28XLc by sunspot@spinster.xyz
2021-06-10T01:57:37.519911Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@hearthmoon @the_trunchbull I’m curious as to your reasoning why you think California will be the first to push the brakes. The state has been ground zero for TRA nonsense for decades
(DIR) Post #A880Zf7rDloTr0i6RU by PonyPanda@freespeechextremist.com
2021-06-10T02:03:43.184946Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@sunspot @hearthmoon @the_trunchbull I'm also curious about this as well. Silicon Valley needs it's mutilated trannies too disfigured and mentally ill to leave their computers.
(DIR) Post #A881IG7n1NfpLUwaiO by hearthmoon@spinster.xyz
2021-06-10T02:06:12.502894Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@sunspot @the_trunchbull I lived in San Francisco for three years. It's a crazy place (wonderful in many ways, but bonkers). They move in extremes there. My theory is that it's all the ocean water in the Bay plus the seismic activity. It makes many people unstable. They will push the "TRA nonsense." as you call it. to the absolute limit, then move in the other extreme. Legislation tentatively pushing back in some areas (self-ID, sports, puberty blockers) will occur in other places first, but once the pendulum starts going the other way in the Bay Area, it will go clear back.
(DIR) Post #A881IGcdAiLMt9NDmq by LostInCalifornia@spinster.xyz
2021-06-10T02:11:45.478219Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@hearthmoon @sunspot @the_trunchbull It’s not being pushed by grassroots, though.The Equality PAC which funds Weiner for example, is a group of real estate developers (I suspect that’s why he pushed tiny apartments by the freeway for homeless people as a solution to affordable housing, and not looking at why home ownership is under 30% in the cities).Term limits handed over governance to the lobbyists, so I don’t expect the state pols to do anything.
(DIR) Post #A881ZtfxDzRYvyKoDI by hearthmoon@spinster.xyz
2021-06-10T02:14:20.169827Z
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@LostInCalifornia @sunspot @the_trunchbull We'll see.
(DIR) Post #A881ZuDzBSfKdWFzG4 by LostInCalifornia@spinster.xyz
2021-06-10T02:14:57.295465Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@hearthmoon @sunspot @the_trunchbull That we shall.
(DIR) Post #A882K4t3sC4Z1hUCcy by sunspot@spinster.xyz
2021-06-10T02:23:18.044471Z
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@LostInCalifornia @hearthmoon @the_trunchbull @PonyPanda It certainly would be a dramatic change. TWAW might as well be the state logo.I think the wild card is COVID. If more TIMs are working their FAANG jobs remotely in other states, it diffuses their power somewhatOTOH, LA has become NB so we'll see
(DIR) Post #A883RiOXTzKzXSPnXc by LuvGreenTea2019@spinster.xyz
2021-06-10T02:30:20.083461Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@hearthmoon @the_trunchbull "I would support some limited "gender affirmation" surgery, with certain other caveats, if it was shown that it worked."Children should never be medically transitioned. Ever. Adults can do as they please, but it doesn't change their sex. "I predict California, ground zero for the battiest extremes of this, will be the first to outlaw all of these surgeries, even for adults."I don't think so, but you are right about future lawsuits. California isn't going to change. They do mastectomies on 13 year old girls in gender clinics in Southern California. A couple of months ago, the insurance commissioner in California said all insurance companies have to cover medical transitioning (mastectomies on teenage girls, puberty blockers, etc.) of kids.
(DIR) Post #A885u149rAtrSmVMI4 by the_trunchbull@spinster.xyz
2021-06-10T02:57:58.830238Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@LuvGreenTea2019 @hearthmoon “Adults can do as they please”And what about the doctors? They’re the ones doing it. This is not about bodily autonomy. It’s about Big Med killing LGB people. Get the point already.
(DIR) Post #A886NkO4QsuGQEzmhU by LostInCalifornia@spinster.xyz
2021-06-10T03:08:47.273020Z
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@sunspot @PonyPanda @hearthmoon @the_trunchbull Nah. State budget is doing well under the lockdown. Women wanting jobs lost by COVID and college kids getting out into the real world isn’t something specific to California, but that may be a factor.The wild card specific to California is the unions. A lot of them are pulling back from politics, so California is in flux, but whether women will benefit is up for grabs.
(DIR) Post #A887ixe4R05nZp9uO8 by LuvGreenTea2019@spinster.xyz
2021-06-10T03:17:14.948600Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@the_trunchbull @hearthmoon I understand your point, but I don't see how you can stop an adult from doing something if they really want it done. Yes, it's the doctors, Big Pharma, etc. that are responsible.
(DIR) Post #A887iy6QjYmGzmQYam by LuvGreenTea2019@spinster.xyz
2021-06-10T03:20:49.349456Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@the_trunchbull @hearthmoon I don't believe anyone should be allowed to legally change sex. Humans can't change their sex. I might make an exception for actual intersex people, but no one else. When it's clear that a person is either biological male or biological female with no intersex condition, then it's ridiculous to think they can their sex. I don't care if they are foolish enough to get surgery or take hormones, they don't really change their sex.
(DIR) Post #A887ttPeVlPndRcy2q by BeachBleach@spinster.xyz
2021-06-10T03:25:47.980666Z
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@LuvGreenTea2019 @hearthmoon @the_trunchbull "We hold these truths to be self-evident". Those are the first words of the United States Declaration of Independence. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that people cannot change sex, but so many have been brainwashed that cannot see that this is a self evident truth. (((SIGH)))
(DIR) Post #A88Bz6r6MIRWakD3tg by BeachBleach@spinster.xyz
2021-06-10T04:11:34.103735Z
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@hearthmoon @the_trunchbull Yes, I am trying to figure out who they are gonna sue if there are no standards of care and it's all experimental. That's their loophole. Maybe they could hold the pharma companies liable for side effects. Or they could bust the pharma companies under anti-trust laws for price fixing and racketeering as they have done before. Or if there are rigorous, long term studies that show harm published in medical journals? In American law they have had carve-outs for certain businesses to protect them from liability. The tobacco industry had lots of doctors and people covering for them and advertising cigarettes as healthy until the Ochsner Clinic of New Orleans published the first studies saying that smoking caused lung cancer. That was in the early Sixties. It took a long time for smoking to become socially unacceptable and for planes and public spaces to prohibit smoking. Unfortunately, that came way too late for my respiratory health and my lungs. Just thinking out loud here with my legal eagle hat on.
(DIR) Post #A890TQCXzUwWzHt7k8 by Dworkin_9to5@spinster.xyz
2021-06-10T06:03:08.881408Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@the_trunchbull I voted C, but that's because I don't really like making sweeping statements on things I don't feel I'm well informed on. I am horrified by the practice, but I legitimately don't know if there is a subset of those with dysphoria who gain sufficient benefit to allow the practice. I doubt it, but I don't know.I absolutely think it should not be legal for minors. Children and teens clearly do not have the capacity to give informed consent on something with such a lifelong impact. There's no way that transitioning children aligns with physician's duty of care towards them. No chance.I don't believe anyone is currently being given the information they need to give informed consent, even if we were to allow it to be an ethical treatment. A physical treatment for a mental health disorder, particularly one which decreases one's physical health, should have an incredibly high bar for informed consent. People cannot change sex. It's improbable that most transitioning people will ever "pass." They're relying on others to pretend they see them as they wish to be seen and paying for the privilege with their health. Do they realize this when they "transition?” I think not. Even if people see them as their desired sex, it doesn't make them their desired sex. I have my doubts that it could ever be enough.This is my incredibly long-winded way of saying that I guess I do think it should be outlawed. I'm just overly cautious and very cognizant of what I don't know. If there's robust evidence of harm and little or no evidence of benefit, it should have been outlawed already.
(DIR) Post #A8AT3VTspYNHf4x57o by ObligateSpinster@spinster.xyz
2021-06-11T04:54:10.497280Z
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@the_trunchbull @hearthmoon I picked C because I don't think we can successfully outlaw it completely at least right now.I'm thinking more of a Nordic model type approach. I think we could prevent LGB from doing these things and straight girls. I don't think we can stop AGP men from continuing to make and take black market hormones/ surgery.
(DIR) Post #A8AT3WCu8AO3ui12Ia by the_trunchbull@spinster.xyz
2021-06-11T05:27:20.702352Z
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@ObligateSpinster @hearthmoon Totally reasonable. I keep seeing people arguing that they don’t want AGPs medicalizing but it’s okay for “dysphoric” people to do it … It’s the other way around. I don’t really care what happens to AGPs, but selling this stuff to mentally ill people is just evil.I like the Nordic Model analogy. Criminalize the doctors and advertisers, offer real help to the victims.
(DIR) Post #A8AT3Wi6GBLBTSbwvI by ObligateSpinster@spinster.xyz
2021-06-11T06:15:40.590617Z
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@the_trunchbull @hearthmoon I've seen enough into the pits of AGP to know that it is next to impossible to stop them. The only way to stop it completely is to stop the porn/prostitution industry in particular. That is a difficult endeavour. I'm 25 but I doubt we will stop these industries in my lifetime.I hope we can make it easier for patients to bring lawsuits against these doctors etc.
(DIR) Post #A8AT3XBsTT9yxoXjKy by HebrideanHecate@spinster.xyz
2021-06-11T06:30:40.689246Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@ObligateSpinster @the_trunchbull @hearthmoon Yes, what is behind this shit is porn, it needs burning to the ground.It is an evil sociopathic industry and those who are responsible forit should be put against a wall and shot.
(DIR) Post #A8Az8AZLCmeymklv2u by operaghost@spinster.xyz
2021-06-10T14:37:11.324066Z
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@LuvGreenTea2019 @hearthmoon @the_trunchbull “ They do mastectomies on 13 year old girls in gender clinics in Southern California. A couple of months ago, the insurance commissioner in California said all insurance companies have to cover medical transitioning (mastectomies on teenage girls, puberty blockers, etc.) of kids.”Can you source any of this?
(DIR) Post #A8Az8B993fIeZnWVqy by LuvGreenTea2019@spinster.xyz
2021-06-10T14:54:26.279638Z
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@operaghost @hearthmoon @the_trunchbull Bioedge is a bioethics journal. This is a credible source. Hell, yes, 13 year old girls have gotten mastectomies.https://www.bioedge.org/bioethics/13-year-olds-given-mastectomies-at-california-clinic/12816As to the Insurance Commissioner of California,http://www.insurance.ca.gov/0250-insurers/0300-insurers/0200-bulletins/bulletin-notices-commiss-opinion/upload/Gender-dysphoria-male-chest-surgery-CDI-GC-opinion-letter-12-30-20.pdfhttps://www.metroweekly.com/2021/01/california-insurance-commissioner-says-insurance-companies-may-not-deny-trans-youth-coverage-for-gender-affirming-care/
(DIR) Post #A8Az8BhB18WQHLRgtk by saxifrage@spinster.xyz
2021-06-11T00:44:23.937024Z
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@LuvGreenTea2019 @operaghost @hearthmoon @the_trunchbull And how complete was their follow-up? Because what comes up over and over again in those studies that say "no regrets" and "happy with transition" is that a significant number of people are simply not accounted for. And those are probably not the ones living happily ever after.
(DIR) Post #A8Az8CDR5CKHtOXSBE by the_trunchbull@spinster.xyz
2021-06-11T03:38:21.744345Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@saxifrage @LuvGreenTea2019 @hearthmoon @operaghost I don't remember specific studies (I need to start compiling and debunking the pro-"trans" studies), but two major issues I have seen are: 1) voluntary response studies (funnily enough, people who are depressed, hospitalized, traumatized into fearing medical professionals, or dead don't tend to answer those), 2) studies relying on responses from the very parents who medicalized their kids in the first place (of course those parents don't want to admit they fucked up). I've also seen at least one study where patients self reported that they were happier, but their suicidality was rated by clinicians and the number didn't improve post medicalization. People who "trans" may be too heavily invested to admit they're unhappy.
(DIR) Post #A8Mm7PnY8AXGDlFMx6 by bornwithovaries@spinster.xyz
2021-06-16T22:05:16.530584Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@LuvGreenTea2019 @hearthmoon @the_trunchbull Intersex people don't need to change sex either. If they need a surgery to save organ function, and that could happen, then fine, but that's not a sex change and it's actually an ethical reason to have surgery.