Post A7ie2ftRpDCUjcdlse by AnungIkwe@spinster.xyz
(DIR) More posts by AnungIkwe@spinster.xyz
(DIR) Post #A7b2CKsdeJkk5xiprk by Li_Chi@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T04:16:26.138228Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
Just finished reading this amazing book. I learned a lot. Are we, sisters, the 21st Century heretics and witches? If others have read it and are critical of it, please let me know your thoughts. I may have blind spots Check out this book on Goodreads: Caliban and the Witch https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/403846.Caliban_and_the_Witch
(DIR) Post #A7b3lx7RZPaWmRC7Ae by LaylaAlexandrovna@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T04:25:31.451515Z
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@Li_Chi I haven't read this one but a more recent one Witches, Witchhunting and Women, about witchhunting in some African countries. It sounded absolutely horrid. Just an excuse to get rid of independent women. What struck me most is that the writer, Silvia Federici, is angry with non-African women for not doing something about it. I wonder what she thinks is appropriate action for women of other cultures attempting to eradicate male created structures of this sort. It seems to me that cultural change can only be brought about if the victims wake up and realise they are victims first. What do you think? or does someone have to come from outside and wake that women up? Just the whole concept of whitefolks running over to African countries and telling people what to do - when they likely know it's wrong too - has been the cause of so many many problems. Imagine if African people came over here and told us we are doing it wrong? What is Caliban and the Witch about?
(DIR) Post #A7b3lxXK1CHw4hImVU by Li_Chi@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T04:34:04.026860Z
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@LaylaAlexandrovna I don't think victimized women need to wake up. I think it's upon all women globally to stand up for the most marginalized regardless of culture / religion.The book is about primitive accumulation and the subjugation of women from feudalism to capitalism. The feminist gaps in Marx's analysis of primitive accumulation. How the witch hunts played a key role in ensuring primitive accumulation
(DIR) Post #A7b45dot2BF0iSu2GO by Ari@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T04:32:44.461035Z
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@Li_Chi Haven't read this one but I'm very interested. Plus the author's name is Italian so she probably is from her or has some connections. I shall google. Thanks for sharing!
(DIR) Post #A7b879zlI9wYc2y9zM by FSI@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T05:07:15.634113Z
6 likes, 1 repeats
@LaylaAlexandrovna @Li_Chi It's not "whitefolks... telling people what to do," it's women (and men) standing up for women and girls. When I was in college, we were organizing against South African apartheid. The movement was mostly white, but no one would think of accusing the students or the movement as a whole as white people interfering with African people's business. Is it so different just because the people they were standing up for included black men and were not just black women, and the oppressors were white? But it's the oppression we need to stand up against, rather than assessing, "oh, but the oppressor doesn't have this skin color, and the oppressed doesn't have that genetalia." I understand where you're coming from because this has been the "feminist" refrain for a few decades now. Identity politics has derailed feminism with its cultural relativism and its righteous, incessant accusations of racism, imperialism etc. Women and girls are paying dearly for buying that identity politics bill of bads. We need to go back to the universal human rights that the second wave of feminists believed in.
(DIR) Post #A7b8AcYvXJEA554GVk by Li_Chi@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T05:23:21.206158Z
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@FSI @LaylaAlexandrovna Fuck I wish I could articulate myself way you do. That's exactly what my thoughts were. Well said.😘
(DIR) Post #A7b8CubJRNVebbHAwa by theAVclub@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T05:05:19.132018Z
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@Li_Chi I've read this book!! It's one of my faves! It's the kind of book you can keep going back to and is so well researched.
(DIR) Post #A7b99I1gVHx23ORpzc by LaylaAlexandrovna@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T05:30:08.058615Z
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@FSI @Li_Chi That's true but this is now. What do you propose non-African women (I am talking about cultures not colours) do about witch hunting in African countries? Is is not better to look to what our own areas are doing first? Even then, what do we do? How do we tell other cultures they are doing it wrong? Unfortunately just getting two women irl to agree on anything seems an impossibility these days. Why is it so hard to put aside what seem like major differences in order to effect change? Maybe this is just my pessimistic attitude but if we are having such a hard time acting in our own countries, why do we presume to act in others?
(DIR) Post #A7b99IkhntxoJ1VnAO by Li_Chi@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T05:34:18.891628Z
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@LaylaAlexandrovna @FSI No doubt. The blood on Canada's hands against indigenous is so heinous and we are still in the thick of it (eg MMIW).Why are Canadians so apathetic in general? I've always wondered that
(DIR) Post #A7bbypVQaGCtNHizUu by LaylaAlexandrovna@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T05:46:02.452086Z
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@Li_Chi @FSI Can non-indigenous women tell indigenous men to stop the violence? I think some FN women are doing the right thing but I know tras are interfering and making themselves a priority instead. And what about the mancamps? Canada gov loves building those dangerous artifacts of rape culture.
(DIR) Post #A7cq9O2Cefs7sKwX8S by DoctorDee@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T19:22:34.151795Z
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@Li_Chi Nothing I know to be critical of--it's an excellent book. And this essay of hers was life-changing for me: http://dev.autonomedia.org/node/3904
(DIR) Post #A7cqB3PUJ6hMUNd5EG by Li_Chi@spinster.xyz
2021-05-26T01:11:09.690550Z
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@DoctorDee Thanks for the essay. I'll read it in the am😘
(DIR) Post #A7cqLnzJzD5TqNW6Xw by senryu@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T18:52:57.913120Z
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@Li_Chi I love her work. Not just feminist but anti-capitalist.
(DIR) Post #A7cqMFD4mB8IGr9yEa by yishengqingwa666@spinster.xyz
2021-05-25T18:52:05.369984Z
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@Li_Chi This book was one of my first radical feminist readings and opened the floodgates.
(DIR) Post #A7iLYUWJkNJ7bEHNJI by FSI@spinster.xyz
2021-05-27T01:15:48.962879Z
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@LaylaAlexandrovna @Li_Chi The best way (if possible) is to support the indigenous women who are already engaged in resistance. Follow their lead and support their resistance and their requests on how you can help. But if there is no identifiable resistance among women, feminist outsiders can still stand up and organize against atrocities. When I lived in New Mexico many years ago, I talked with the founder of the battered women's shelter there. She told me that battery had been just accepted among women as part of domestic life, as part of their lot in life. She said, "Then in the 70s, all these women from New York and Chicago were moving here and telling us, "No, he doesn't have a right to beat you..." [Those dastardlyJews...]. So in this case, the outsider feminists worked with and supported the native women there in organizing resistance, but conciousness raising had to happen first. I agree thay there's so much to do in our own countries/ localities. I think people need to follow their own heartfelt calling.
(DIR) Post #A7iLYV4LhqWtImCYM4 by AnungIkwe@spinster.xyz
2021-05-27T21:58:27.233490Z
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@FSI @LaylaAlexandrovna @Li_Chi Wow. You probably don't even see the racism in this post do you? I lived as an Indigenous woman all my life, fearful of the laughter of white males, terrified by the sounds of breaking beer bottles on pavement, knowing that I could be hunted like prey by any white man and have no legal recourse. NEVER. NOT EVEN ONCE did I ever meet an Indigenous woman who thought a man had a right to beat her. There was no rape, prostitution of pornography in the Americas 500 years ago. Your ancestors brought that here. And do not dare tell me about your great great grandmother who was a Cherokee princess. Why would you post this racism in a forum that may contain Indigenous women? Are you ignorant or insensitive or both? There's always one dumb Indian who needs Great White Savior White Liberal Feminism to teach them about women's rights isn't there? And you just can't wait to tell everyone about it. You need to figure out why you thought you needed to share this. I've never met this token NDN who needs "Women from New York and Chicago" (and yes I know you mean white women I hear your dog whistle) to teach our dumb NDN asses that men don't have a right to beat us. We're all just ignorant savages waiting for the wisdom of white women aren't we?But we're not ignorant and we see you. We don't need you to teach us that men don't have a right to beat us. That's dehumanizing and insulting. No woman of color should have to see an insensitive post like this in an allegedly radical feminist forum. Indigenous women don't need you to teach us how to be feminist, or to teach us how to stand up for our human rights. We've always been lightyears ahead of you in that department. Check your racism and y9ur colonialism sister. You should be doing more listening and less pontificating.
(DIR) Post #A7iLYVcNfJkf0K7jOq by FSI@spinster.xyz
2021-05-28T16:17:55.719050Z
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@AnungIkwe @LaylaAlexandrovna @Li_Chi I have unfortunately met and heard about many women of many races who thought men have a right to beat women. When Rihanna was beaten almost to death by her rapper boyfriend, a huge percentage of black girls and young women took the position that men had a right to abuse women in some way. I know this because I heard the point made by an African American activist against violence against women, I believe she was the head of a battered women's shelter in New York. MANY women believe women deserve to be treated with violence by men,. Many believe they themselves deserve it, not just other women.
(DIR) Post #A7iYG2elu4oTNDlaVs by Li_Chi@spinster.xyz
2021-05-28T19:18:37.464270Z
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@AnungIkwe @FSI @LaylaAlexandrovna "There was no rape, prostitution of pornography in the Americas 500 years ago. Your ancestors brought that here". Federici makes many references to this in her book bringing poisonous patriarchal ways to turtle island in 1492 onward... As one of many strategies to the genocide / colonization for the benefit of capitalist elite during primitive accumulation. She references the witch hunts here too (among others) around that time as a continued strategy brought from Europe to control women
(DIR) Post #A7idYz0CDLhzJQdfIu by Sherri_Ingrey@spinster.xyz
2021-05-27T22:53:35.389194Z
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@AnungIkwe @FSI @LaylaAlexandrovna @Li_Chi I am sorry this is the second time I have seen you take offence to things that weren't said at all.
(DIR) Post #A7idYzRUZrXig5PSqm by AnungIkwe@spinster.xyz
2021-05-27T23:16:33.526161Z
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@Sherri_Ingrey @FSI @LaylaAlexandrovna @Li_Chi Can someone please explain why native women needed white women's consciousness raising? Can someone explain to me why this isn't racist af?Can someone tell me why it's ok to think native women needed nonNative women to tell them that men don't have a right to beat them?Can someone tell me why this isn't condescending, dehumanizing and patronizing af?Can someone tell me why this mentality belongs in a radical feminist forum?
(DIR) Post #A7idYznpEpPJnLrIf2 by FSI@spinster.xyz
2021-05-28T16:04:38.607211Z
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@AnungIkwe @Sherri_Ingrey @LaylaAlexandrovna @Li_Chi I'm quoting directly and word for word from a native woman who told me this. This was her experience and what she witnessed in her community. "Native" is the term that Hispanics of the area used to refer to people who had been there for generations, distinguishing them from newcomers. Hispanic is also the term they used. "Can someone please explain why native women needed white women's consciousness raising?" - Is there a such thing as "white women's consciousness raising? White women are not a cohesive group, they are as varied as any group with any shade of skin color. In fact, there are many shades of skin color among them. I also never said they were "white." The founder of the battered women's shelter said they were from Chicago and New York. I didn't ask their race or ethnicity, but my logic tells me, based on demographics of the time, they were probably busy body Jewish lesbians. I could be wrong but who cares? If they had brown skin and came from Mexico, would they have the appropriate credentials to initiate consciousness raising? And it would be legitimate in that case to publicly recount it later?I've read many books that pointed out that the Iroquois women did a lot of consciousness raising among white women in previous centuries. Was it racist., condescending, dehumanizing, and patronizing to think that these white women needed consciousness raising from a culture outside of their own?I also know that there were white women who attempted to stop the atrocity of genital mutilation in Africa back in I think, the 80s, and were vilified as racists, and undermined - and what were the effect did that accusation have on the countless girls and women that could have been helped? Not until an African American woman a decade or so later by the name of Alice Walker was it considered it okay to do exactly what those white women were trying to do.
(DIR) Post #A7ie2ftRpDCUjcdlse by AnungIkwe@spinster.xyz
2021-05-28T16:23:26.320522Z
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@FSI @LaylaAlexandrovna @Li_Chi You know this is exactly like saying "some of my best friends are black" after you drop a N-bomb right? I'm not interested in your excuses. Why are you so afraid to grow as a human being? Better check yourself before you wreck yourself.
(DIR) Post #A7ie2gMA6SAYAg4hdY by FSI@spinster.xyz
2021-05-28T16:28:07.743313Z
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@AnungIkwe @LaylaAlexandrovna @Li_Chi I'm not interested in your slanderous accusations based on your misreading of my post. Your response makes no sense, it's just buzz words. I'd be happy to learn from a thoughtful communication - anytime.
(DIR) Post #A7ijnLKIbqpwKSGxHs by FSI@spinster.xyz
2021-05-28T16:42:34.299437Z
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@AnungIkwe @LaylaAlexandrovna @Li_Chi Btw, In her book "Possessing the Secret of Joy," Alice Walker writes at length about how indigenous African women that she encountered were under the assumption that fgm was just life, inevitable, and that they were repulsed when she told them she did not undergo FGM. Is Alice Walker a "black savior" for attempting to raise consciousness among them? An American imperialist savior? I'm not a fan of Alice Walker, for many reasons, but I do think she did really important work in her efforts to fight FGM, and that PSJ is an important book, whatever it's faults may be (if any).
(DIR) Post #A7jMWcOXnCWqYUH2zQ by AnungIkwe@spinster.xyz
2021-05-28T16:26:59.758947Z
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@FSI @LaylaAlexandrovna @Li_Chi @Sherri_Ingrey Did you even stop to think about the affect that your "direct quotation" would have on an Indigenous woman? Making the poor excuse that your are quoting a racist comment DOES NOT excuse your insensitivity. You chose to post that quote. You are a grown woman and you are responsible for your choices. Next time you feel like quoting something that is racist (even if you claim it came from a WOC) it's best to err on the side of caution.
(DIR) Post #A7jMWcomDfVprqXzsW by FSI@spinster.xyz
2021-05-28T16:29:50.563909Z
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@AnungIkwe @LaylaAlexandrovna @Li_Chi @Sherri_Ingrey I will never pretend reality is different from what it is to accommodate anyone's idea of what's politically correct to say.
(DIR) Post #A7lTzEmbkQm3iY2jzs by AnungIkwe@spinster.xyz
2021-05-28T16:31:45.189512Z
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@FSI @LaylaAlexandrovna @Li_Chi @Sherri_Ingrey "Politically correct" has nothing to do with it. This is a 500 year old problem. It existed long before the term "politically correct" was coined.
(DIR) Post #A7lTzFKdhtzpQ5xv2e by Yemaya@spinster.xyz
2021-05-28T16:45:22.121186Z
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@AnungIkwe @FSI @LaylaAlexandrovna @Li_Chi @Sherri_Ingrey They don't realize that the problem is when they speak many times it is coming from a place of moral authority for which not one single indigenous woman has given them. The mere fact that the term "indigenous woman" has to exist is problematic to begin with.
(DIR) Post #A7lTzFqXnHW712tOls by AnungIkwe@spinster.xyz
2021-05-28T16:46:38.951878Z
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@Yemaya @FSI @LaylaAleIxandrovna @Li_Chi @Sherri_Ingrey I don't have a problem with the term "indigenous woman." It's the #WhiteTears that I'm sick and tired of.
(DIR) Post #A7lTzGNVoht8fIJj9s by Sherri_Ingrey@spinster.xyz
2021-05-28T17:34:19.344338Z
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@AnungIkwe @Yemaya @FSI @Li_Chi it just happens that one of the nine or so women that I consciousness raised with in the 1970s was indigenous. Another one was brown, East Indian. Another was from Mexico, half Spanish, half indigenous. Four of us were working class, more or less. Two were middle class more or less. The whole POINT of consciousness raising is to FOCUS AND HARDEN resistance to patriarchy and to shed the issues that divide us. Including class, race, status, etc The truly privileged women in quota schools were never involved, the ones whose parents basically bought their degrees and paid for their nice apartments https://daily.jstor.org/consciousness-raising-groups-and-the-womens-movement/
(DIR) Post #A7lTzGnOGUaXxYQOUi by AnungIkwe@spinster.xyz
2021-05-28T18:33:44.593473Z
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@Sherri_Ingrey @FSI @Li_Chi @Yemaya So?
(DIR) Post #A7lTzHG6XjYbObrKFc by Yemaya@spinster.xyz
2021-05-28T18:34:01.711625Z
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@AnungIkwe @Sherri_Ingrey @FSI @Li_Chi So what?
(DIR) Post #A7lTzHiSqIF4oZ7ySG by Yemaya@spinster.xyz
2021-05-28T18:42:22.698996Z
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@Sherri_Ingrey funny thing you should mention it. but I suggested a film to the same Raunchel chick that would have given a great take on the very thing you are showing us on this chart and her response to me in her condescending nature to demonstrate how she is above us "unimportant women of colour" was that she didn't have time to watch a film (like she knows what the fuck my life has time for) but It was just a very important viewing suggestion and she chose to show just how fucking superior she thinks she is without calling a name. In these small transgressions it shows the attitude of superiority... and it is always the little things that give people away. She could have taken the suggestion and just said thanks, Ill watch when I get a chance. So for the record, some of us actually ARE critical thinkers and not just using the term for reference sake. @AnungIkwe @FSI @Li_Chi
(DIR) Post #A7lTzI6vNLoA2QZVa4 by Sherri_Ingrey@spinster.xyz
2021-05-28T18:51:18.326532Z
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@Yemaya @AnungIkwe @FSI @Li_Chi well I know for SURE you are, I follow your posts. When you have been doing this as long as I have, it breaks my heart to still see women pitted against each other, which is why I have constantly called for a renewal of consciousness raising. I honestly believe it made us all more tolerant and aware .
(DIR) Post #A7lTzIbPY0C7Yypr6G by FSI@spinster.xyz
2021-05-30T03:37:48.107383Z
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@Sherri_Ingrey @Yemaya @AnungIkwe @Li_Chi I think we need to distinguish between "pitted against each other" (which I know is a real phenomenon) and targetted abuse. Standing up against absue and misrepresentation isn't "against " other women. To the contrary. I've seen so much abuse directed at women of the white skinned variety in the name of anti racism, but there is nothing anti-racist about it. It's about feeling entitled - and being granted license - to vent nasty emotions, to experience personal power through causing others to coweringly accept their "autbority" no matter how confused their "arguments" are, simply because of their race or ethnicity. The acceptance of this dynamic among feminists has derailed feminism more than any other factor. It is not only misogynist but in fact it is also racist, as the issue of racism is used for their own questionable benefit.
(DIR) Post #A7lVLTLwMFrFEKjh44 by Yemaya@spinster.xyz
2021-05-28T16:48:44.998942Z
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@AnungIkwe @FSI @Li_Chi @Sherri_Ingrey But it is problematic because it creates the myth that there are "white people" and then everyone else. Why are they separated as if though there is something about them they makes them above all of the rest of us? It doesn't matter why we use the term. The term exists literally out of colonization.