Post A6IddoJLJS0Z036EbI by js@mstdn.io
(DIR) More posts by js@mstdn.io
(DIR) Post #A6EY0UpEY7PArxbvXs by fribbledom@mastodon.social
2021-04-14T10:02:01Z
3 likes, 3 repeats
"Simplify the spelling of Linux":https://github.com/golang/go/commit/13a4e8c41cd1d242a435d44e7f66f370e5306a8cđđđ
(DIR) Post #A6EY1ZOH3seNJkVqKG by Zergling_man@mastodon.linuxbox.ninja
2021-04-14T10:04:19Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@fribbledom [interjecting intensifies]
(DIR) Post #A6EYDC5PX2y0W2ESWW by zatnosk@manowar.social
2021-04-14T10:04:24Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@fribbledom "What you refer to as GNU+Linux is actually GNU/Linux, or as I've taking to call it, Linux, because the prefix didn't help clarify anything"
(DIR) Post #A6EYDW2xJst2QDEmTQ by PestToast@paypig.org
2021-04-14T10:06:28Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@fribbledom REEEEEEEEEE
(DIR) Post #A6EYfSIQrCOGtlnb3g by galena@paws.moe
2021-04-14T10:11:30.657713Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@zatnosk @fribbledom They also changed GNU/Hurd to Hurd. Amazing.
(DIR) Post #A6EaK0y5T1WTy8BdhI by reto@pleroma.labrat.space
2021-04-14T10:30:04.256294Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@fribbledom awesome, I was expecting a joke issue and not actually a merged PR đ
(DIR) Post #A6EagAxD1LE9JILL5U by brad@weeaboo.space
2021-04-14T10:34:03.641506Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@fribbledom Oof... Why make things less specific?
(DIR) Post #A6EaglyZNFIg8EGRqS by jaxter184@social.linux.pizza
2021-04-14T10:34:09Z
3 likes, 1 repeats
@fribbledom "rms fsf bad" aside, I never really understood GNU/Linux. Why is GNU the only part of the software that gets named? There are lots of important software layers that are vital to the usage of the OS, and it would be a pain to name them all every time. It makes sense to me to only refer to the lowest level layer since everything else depends on it. That being said, im glad the GNU/Linux copypasta exists, because it made me curious about what Linux itself actually is.
(DIR) Post #A6EbS5R0qPn05n84si by mgrondin@youdabomb.social
2021-04-14T10:42:42.898832Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@fribbledom oh my. So many people are going to be but-hurt about this.
(DIR) Post #A6EdTj2DIWdN6jRGka by pleb@shitposter.club
2021-04-14T10:43:11.729154Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@jaxter184 it's historical really, Userspace/Kernel.GNU's not UNIX, which is everything but the kernel, since HURD never took off.Linus was there with a kick ass kernel, so GNU/Linux was born.As long as all your userspace is compiled with GNU's compiler collection, it's moot to include every other layer after.
(DIR) Post #A6EdTjWLUUjkcBXKiW by jaxter184@social.linux.pizza
2021-04-14T11:05:25Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@pleb what other OSes use the Userspace/Kernel naming convention?
(DIR) Post #A6EdUT00P4CTfCl9hA by xro@chaos.social
2021-04-14T10:56:51Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@fribbledomIs that motivated by the recent RMS discussion?I get that GNU/Linux is more than just GNU tools and Linux kernel today. I am always for updating historical Labels to match current state.But this feels more like a politicaly motivated removal of an attribution notice.
(DIR) Post #A6Ee5VSmClSQ1JsYIy by Asimech@mastodon.social
2021-04-14T11:12:14Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@jaxter184 @fribbledom Supposedly the reason is b/c GNU is the "actually important part" but IMO it's really because the people who started to insist it should be "GNU/Linux" were the people working on the GNU stuff and felt their work was more important than anybody else's.
(DIR) Post #A6Eeq43luJrQdnNqe8 by jaxter184@social.linux.pizza
2021-04-14T11:20:38Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Asimech @fribbledom yeah, it feels really petty to me? whether or not it was actually done out of pettiness is unclear though.
(DIR) Post #A6EgXu68PGmCRMxOMa by Asimech@mastodon.social
2021-04-14T11:39:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@jaxter184 @fribbledom Yeah, it's impossible to tell for sure. And at the very least it's nitpicky, because who says "GApps+Android" without it being important to the discussion at hand? And there aren't many who would insist on a specific formatting of "X+Y" or "X/Y" for the two parts without getting eyerolls in response.
(DIR) Post #A6Ei0CFwaWrAosbGqm by robby@zoinks.one
2021-04-14T11:36:40.593802Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@jaxter184 @fribbledom GNU is a complete operating system that has support for multiple kernels (Linux is one of them) and is actually usable by people. Some consider Linux to be an operating system, because it meets a common definition of an operating system: software that provides an interface between the hardware, and applications run on top of it. However, using the Linux kernel alone is not very useful to people as a general purpose operating system, unlike GNU.In this case, dropping GNU from GNU/Linux makes sense, since Go actually has no dependency on GNU as far as I know. Funnily enough though Iâve been considering saying GNU to people instead of Linux, since I can actually point to this page on the GNU site to download usable operating systems, which does not exist on any official Linux page (you can only download the sources, which isnât useful to the average person).
(DIR) Post #A6Ei0CgsyMPKARCmqO by jaxter184@social.linux.pizza
2021-04-14T11:56:06Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@robby @fribbledom That seems like a decent reason to call it GNU rather than Linux. Do programs that run on GNU/Linux usually also work without modification on GNU Hurd?I call it Linux because imo the most important operating system property is task scheduling. It doesn't even really have to have memory management or user input (though those are also things I would assign an operating system). Sure GNU is important to using it, but Linux does all the OS-esque stuff.
(DIR) Post #A6EjEaikWfwkhgV9Gq by FreePietje@x0f.org
2021-04-14T12:09:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@fribbledom What actually bothers me is that they renamed "GNU/Hurd" too.Hurd is not Linux and is a GNU project; you could replace the slash with a space.IMO it's a bad commit message and they snuck in an unrelated change.And 2 ppl 'Reviewed' it, but didn't even mention that?
(DIR) Post #A6EmtiPr7U6yIzxttQ by kescher@notbird.site
2021-04-14T12:45:00Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@fribbledom It's funny because Go works with musl libc
(DIR) Post #A6EmtirVSgEHgktyzY by fribbledom@mastodon.social
2021-04-14T12:45:34Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@kescher Actually, it even works without a libc.
(DIR) Post #A6Enhu83qSyP6zZdD6 by eliasr@social.librem.one
2021-04-14T10:20:34Z
1 likes, 3 repeats
@fribbledom So someone decided to no longer give credit to #GNU, and they do that change without explaining in the commit message what the change actually is. The commit message should say "remove GNU" since that is what the commit is doing.Apparently they don't want the commit message to show what they are actually doing.Is that supposed to be funny?
(DIR) Post #A6EnphDPk3FHNSnE6y by icedquinn@blob.cat
2021-04-14T13:01:26.730119Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@eliasr @fribbledom well they are google corpos :cirno_shrug:
(DIR) Post #A6EpWn0GCMPtjakjFw by thatbrickster@shitposter.club
2021-04-14T13:20:27.399870Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@eliasr I doubt this commit that changes code comments makes golang userland-agnostic.@fribbledom
(DIR) Post #A6ExB1ATeWk8vbf3Ca by a@pdx.social
2021-04-14T14:46:07Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@jaxter184 @fribbledom GNU/Xorg/UCB/Apache/CPAN/Python/Linux doesnât roll off the tongue in quite the same way. As to the âwhyâ â none of those other orgs are half as self-important and arrogant.
(DIR) Post #A6FFfowOxd339tumh6 by lxo@gnusocial.net
2021-04-14T17:50:42Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
gnu was the name of the operating system that linus torvalds developed his kernel to work with. it doesn't change names just because of a different kernel. what makes no sense is to name it after another single much smaller piece and dispute the name of the much larger piece that it built upon (or underneath, if you wish ;-)https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu.html has a *lot* more info on the history and the naming than you probably wanted to know. if your stated curiosity is real, you may want to look at the article about the naming, and the FAQ, that addresses every mental contortion people have come up with to justify writing GNU's history-changing contributions out of history
(DIR) Post #A6FFfpQBAurqeFqZ6m by jaxter184@social.linux.pizza
2021-04-14T18:13:22Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lxo a couple things:* I don't care too much about the history in this particular case. I'm more thinking about what actually constitutes an operating system* My stated curiosity was more about Linux, though I am also curious about GNU, and will probably read the article youre talking about later today* I'm very impressed with everything the GNU project has accomplished, particularly gcc, and don't mean to diminish its impact. I just think its unnecessary to call it "GNU/Linux"
(DIR) Post #A6GKBgtezxRAS32qhc by muhlinus@shpposter.club
2021-04-15T06:26:41.119872Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@jaxter184 @fribbledom remove the GNU part and try and use the OS VS remove everything elseNow you will understand why it's GNU/Linux
(DIR) Post #A6GKBhN5EYyNvIoLZ2 by petit@social.ufeff.club
2021-04-15T06:38:42.991767Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@muhlinus @jaxter184 @fribbledom
(DIR) Post #A6GKg5ostqeQR6J9Si by jaxter184@social.linux.pizza
2021-04-15T06:44:12Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@muhlinus @fribbledom would you consider Void Linux to be sufficiently GNU-free? or does it have enough GNU in there that you would still want to call it GNU/Linux? At what point of the removal of GNU software would you no longer consider it to be GNU/Linux?My issue isnt with the significance of the contribution to the user experience (of which GNU software has a lot), but rather what traits cause us to call something an operating system in the first place.
(DIR) Post #A6IdX0v02ZNw4dTLhw by wuffel@social.tchncs.de
2021-04-14T12:58:06Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@fribbledom đ€Ą Das ist nicht nur dĂŒmmlichste Cancelculture, sondern auch unfassbar reaktionĂ€rer Moronismus in einer pathologischen Phase.
(DIR) Post #A6IddoJLJS0Z036EbI by js@mstdn.io
2021-04-16T09:26:07Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wuffel @fribbledom Und in wie fern hat der Code dort irgendwas mit GNU zu tun? Go benutzt glibc nicht. Das GNU/Linux vorher war schlichtweg falsch.
(DIR) Post #A6ImiEA82TmVvEyFPM by reto@pleroma.labrat.space
2021-04-16T11:07:46.763028Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@js @wuffel @fribbledom >Go benutzt glibc nichtDoch, per Standarteinstellungen fĂŒr diverse Sachen von DNS lookup ĂŒber user lookup (basierend auf dem "setup" des resolvers).Wenn du das nicht willst musst du es mittels env var ĂŒbersteuern.
(DIR) Post #A6J30RNXEqwDOHwqRc by js@mstdn.io
2021-04-16T14:10:19Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@reto @fribbledom @wuffel In dem speziellen Code wurde aber GNU nicht entfernt, oder?
(DIR) Post #A6JUYGNf1piyKNf852 by reto@pleroma.labrat.space
2021-04-16T19:18:59.645404Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@js @fribbledom @wuffel war ja sowieso nur in den Kommentaren und da ist gar kein Grund vorhanden dass zu machen, selbst wenn da libc verwendet wird. Nutz fröhlich musl wenn du es lÀsst, hauptsache c stdlib.Gnu ist da ungefÀhr gleich relevant wie die Marke von deiner CPU
(DIR) Post #A6JUfcyzOQWySCdNZY by js@mstdn.io
2021-04-16T19:20:19Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@reto @fribbledom @wuffel Exakt. Daher macht das Entfernen von GNU es hier nur korrekter.
(DIR) Post #A6JV10aioP0NkvTiqG by reto@pleroma.labrat.space
2021-04-16T19:24:11.708214Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@js klar, ich mag den Commit.Jeder weiss was man meint wenn man Linux sagt... da meint man unglaublich selten nur den Kernel. So selten dass es die Ausnahme ist und man schlicht vom Kernel redet falls es mal nötig ist.Gnu ist auch nur ein Zahnrad im ganzen System und nicht wichtiger wie die hardware oder mein init oder network stack oder was auch immer noch gerade lÀuft.Die ganzen "aber es ist Gnu/Linux" Idioten haben irgendwas mal verpasst ;)
(DIR) Post #A6LRR0oCcC7ASVqcN6 by Capheind@mastodon.sdf.org
2021-04-17T17:53:28Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@jaxter184 @pleb not that i know of, but most OSs dont have them produced by 2 separate organizations.
(DIR) Post #A6Mm4gedMw7w5PEk7M by jaxter184@social.linux.pizza
2021-04-18T07:48:33Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Capheind @pleb id argue there are many more than 2 separate organizations working together to produce the modern Linux-based computer experience
(DIR) Post #A6NExFj1zPoZD86JDU by Capheind@mastodon.sdf.org
2021-04-18T14:43:08Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@jaxter184 I wouldn't argue at all :) Ive been off the GNU scold wagon for a while now.
(DIR) Post #A6VG0fNIjh3Mqgo9Dc by tzafrir@tooot.im
2021-04-22T11:32:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@jaxter184 @fribbledom For me it's a historic name that everybody understand. Historic names don't have to be fully accurate. It's useful when contrasted with Android/Linux.Even if glibc and current major Linux distributions play no specific part here, they are still part in the de-facto standard that makes up what we normally call Linux, but should not be confused with the Linux kernel, or with the completely different Android userspace that runs on top it.
(DIR) Post #A6VIKb1uneQn4bR4qW by jaxter184@social.linux.pizza
2021-04-22T11:58:39Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tzafrir @fribbledom Isn't the Linux kernel under android significantly modified to the point it could be considered a different kernel? I'd say thats an example of a historic name that everybody understands (i.e. Linux) being applied to something in a way thats not fully accurate (i.e. Android's kernel) that starts to lose its usefulness due to the inaccuracy.Similarly, "GNU/Linux" raises more questions than it answers (though some of those questions are important)
(DIR) Post #A6VIecQdJEaFCdXqAS by jaxter184@social.linux.pizza
2021-04-22T12:02:16Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tzafrir @fribbledom I think it makes sense to use historic terms when talking about the politics or the history, but when we're having a technical conversation about Linux-based operating systems, not only is "Linux" more complete, but its also a little more correct.The distinction between the kernel and the operating system is easy to do by appending the term "kernel", as you would with other operating systems (Windows kernel, Android kernel, Redox kernel, etc.)
(DIR) Post #A6VJjVFLXUd8KX9sp6 by muhlinus@shpposter.club
2021-04-16T10:06:41.083401Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@jaxter184 @fribbledom I think even embedded GNU/Linux systems like buildroot are GNU/Linux, even though they (can) have zero gnu-utils. Everything is still built on the shoulders of GNU from my perspective.
(DIR) Post #A6VJjVfZxxc7dtQpiC by jaxter184@social.linux.pizza
2021-04-22T12:14:20Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@muhlinus Sure, but the nature of technology is that everything is built on the shoulders of past innovations. Should it be called Turing/Lovelace/Stroustrup/Thompson/Ritchie/GNU/Linux? I'd argue the influence of Unix over GNU is larger than that of GNU over Linux, yet it's not called Unix/GNU. (To be fair, GNU does contain 'Unix' in its acronym, but prepends it with "Not", which kinda negates any attribution.)In terms of literal building, you can build the kernel with Clang too
(DIR) Post #A6VKLzgoniKBkgMVu4 by tzafrir@tooot.im
2021-04-22T12:21:18Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@jaxter184 @fribbledom No. It's not significantly different. It was a fork, but most (if not all) of the changes in that fork were merged.
(DIR) Post #A6VLk8dzGCaYQZ7AVU by jaxter184@social.linux.pizza
2021-04-22T12:36:53Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@tzafrir I'm admittedly not fully educated about the topic, but I'm reading right now about stuff like mainline Linux not having WakeLocks and dropping support for Android-specific drivers? Is this no longer true?At the very least, it's my understanding that the standard Linux kernel and Android Linux kernel are far from drop-in replacements for each other, and that it has been this way for a long time. That's my justification for considering them to be distinct from each other.