Post A68V05ZywpH9l8pcRM by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
(DIR) More posts by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
(DIR) Post #A68PrjAJtmm49l1Q7U by methyltheobromine@netzsphaere.xyz
2021-04-11T11:04:34.394961Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
so tl;dr all c99 gui libraries are trash so I have to build my own
(DIR) Post #A68PzirgtqaTXc7Xwe by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T11:05:59.747316Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@methyltheobromine *all c libraries are trash (because they're not in rust)
(DIR) Post #A68Q6DmerD17AhriYC by methyltheobromine@netzsphaere.xyz
2021-04-11T11:07:11.997966Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@footjamfan rust is bloat. Rust is "c++ for the java mindset"
(DIR) Post #A68QIHXGjZ9iHaPzPc by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T11:09:22.604252Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@methyltheobromine t. Likes having programs segfault
(DIR) Post #A68QRtqheepliS5vRw by methyltheobromine@netzsphaere.xyz
2021-04-11T11:11:06.252829Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@footjamfan no seg faults when you just stop thinking in OOP
(DIR) Post #A68QXANxbH8kS0A5Y0 by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T11:12:04.231207Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@methyltheobromine except rust doesn't have OOP? Maybe you're thinking of C++ (which has segfaults and oop)
(DIR) Post #A68Qc5i2PhQTOatvge by methyltheobromine@netzsphaere.xyz
2021-04-11T11:12:57.008472Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@footjamfan rust is oop, what are you talking about
(DIR) Post #A68QiXOiNjdt0Uw96O by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T11:14:07.380393Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@methyltheobromine rust has a trait system, no inheritance or OOP
(DIR) Post #A68QpkOUSa3vLFGmJM by methyltheobromine@netzsphaere.xyz
2021-04-11T11:15:24.966376Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@footjamfan inheritance is optional in OOP. Traits are just Rust's implementation of OOP.
(DIR) Post #A68Qu5OoIz9Ze8UKem by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T11:16:12.739319Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@methyltheobromine you can't just call things you don't like OOP as an insult, words mean things
(DIR) Post #A68R1urdMHO7HyhhQ0 by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T11:17:37.585165Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@methyltheobromine by that reasoning, c structs are just OOP. Haha gotcha cnile btfo btfo rekt btfo
(DIR) Post #A68RAn09xb0ZVgvH4C by TransGal4872@fedi.absturztau.be
2021-04-11T11:19:14.200618Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@methyltheobromine @footjamfan yeah, afaict Rust is true Object Orientation, but poorly done; C++ can have it's use; for adding features to C99 programs, and sometimes the limited OO syntax in C++ can be used to implement real Smalltalk-style OO without relying on Objective C.If you use C++ like this, call it C/C++ to add insult to injury, it really makes people overly concerned with The Proper Way® of using C xor C++ flip :meowblep:
(DIR) Post #A68RB5IXvyPYFvfDE0 by methyltheobromine@netzsphaere.xyz
2021-04-11T11:19:15.210221Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@footjamfan OOP is thinking in objects rather than procedures, like "A does B" instead of "perform B on A". Thinking OOP in C or C++ is what causes seg faults and it's easy to avoid if you just pull your head out of this mindset.
(DIR) Post #A68RIgmywTcIYiWfYW by methyltheobromine@netzsphaere.xyz
2021-04-11T11:20:38.977963Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@footjamfan OOP means object oriented programming. C++, Rust and Lua are all object oriented languages, as they provide syntax to describe OOP. You can use OOP in non OOP languages as well, because OOP is a way to design software.
(DIR) Post #A68RMuMSQI4joK8BaS by methyltheobromine@netzsphaere.xyz
2021-04-11T11:21:25.230886Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@footjamfan nothing stops you from implementing vtables in c, which OH SURPRISE allows OOP in C on structs
(DIR) Post #A68RSoyjLgA2r0qv3Z by TransGal4872@fedi.absturztau.be
2021-04-11T11:22:29.740338Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@methyltheobromine @footjamfan the X11 and nCurses library actually do use the "perform B on A" syntax, and nCurses actually has to be in an extern C block if you use it in C++they use pointers as an argument, creating an inside-out version of normal object-oriented syntax that is much more versitile
(DIR) Post #A68RaS58MVKc9qUDCq by TransGal4872@fedi.absturztau.be
2021-04-11T11:23:46.561024Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@methyltheobromine @footjamfan C is a MOHOL language, of course you can do OO in it.
(DIR) Post #A68Rc0ghBSQ1m8nZ56 by anon00110@kiwifarms.cc
2021-04-11T11:24:09.017085Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@methyltheobromine @footjamfan This cleared some things up for me, ty.
(DIR) Post #A68RpYJLU4r1oyKmJ6 by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T11:26:35.888419Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@methyltheobromine right but Rust code isn't typically written like OOP code - traits may expose "methods", but free standing functions are fine (and common afaik). You don't use UML when writing rust code because rust code typically doesn't use composition of objects to the same extent as Java or other OOP languages.
(DIR) Post #A68RwdfVxmQwSr5BJI by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T11:27:52.896038Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@TransGal4872 @methyltheobromine in terms of degrees of OOP rust and C++ are almost the same - what do you mean? Rust less so because it doesn't have objects
(DIR) Post #A68S6qXaxXDTHbFILg by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T11:29:43.385289Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@methyltheobromine that was never the argument - the meme was, is rust bloat? You - yes because it's OOP, me - no because traits aren't objects.The same argument you made for C could be applied to rust.
(DIR) Post #A68SGd6Hml2YUg8YYS by TransGal4872@fedi.absturztau.be
2021-04-11T11:31:29.827483Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@footjamfan @methyltheobromine yeah; C++ is barely useful as an OO language and sucks as anything else; it's only unmitigated redeeming quality is the introduction of lambdas to the C enviroment
(DIR) Post #A68STUopt3EuZe6t96 by methyltheobromine@netzsphaere.xyz
2021-04-11T11:33:47.971295Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@footjamfan C is much cleaner and obvious than rust while not pushing stupid limitations. Your point was "C means seg faults", my point was " bad programming habits (e.g. OOP) causes seg faults"
(DIR) Post #A68SUUBzhZ0cv8PkDA by TransGal4872@fedi.absturztau.be
2021-04-11T11:33:59.109484Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@footjamfan @methyltheobromine Have a quote:"Actually I made up the term 'object-oriented', and I can tell you I did not have C++ in mind."—Alan Kay, inventor of Smalltalk
(DIR) Post #A68SYxE1hUDu7eUmKu by TransGal4872@fedi.absturztau.be
2021-04-11T11:34:48.580759Z
1 likes, 3 repeats
@methyltheobromine @footjamfan C does not mean segfaults, bad code means segfaults, bad programmers write bad code.
(DIR) Post #A68SaI2tm9dgzAvZ0y by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T11:35:02.852411Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@TransGal4872 @methyltheobromine you're preaching to the choir here - I'm a rust fan, of course I can trash on C++ all day here
(DIR) Post #A68SiGNtptxq9MYJKi by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T11:36:29.195815Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@methyltheobromine personal taste I guess. IMO UB and weak types are much less clearer and obvious than Rust's affine type system.
(DIR) Post #A68SnX5RAIUfOnQgSG by TransGal4872@fedi.absturztau.be
2021-04-11T11:37:26.589315Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@methyltheobromine @footjamfan A segfault simply means that something happened that shouldn't have; enough forethought and understanding of C and you can do all the pointer recasting you want without getting one
(DIR) Post #A68Su1BiA8NEUfSN2u by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T11:38:36.786021Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@TransGal4872 @methyltheobromine C makes writing bad code easier. Rust helps the programmer.
(DIR) Post #A68SxLtncE2db3fUMi by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T11:39:12.835202Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@TransGal4872 @methyltheobromine the progression of history has always been about computers helping programmers more.
(DIR) Post #A68T0wNESZUfad9840 by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T11:39:51.996151Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@TransGal4872 @methyltheobromine when the first compilers came out, the assembly programmers had the same reaction as the modern day rust haters.
(DIR) Post #A68T2HzNa2KCuydGXw by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T11:40:06.528084Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@TransGal4872 @methyltheobromine what happened to them?
(DIR) Post #A68T42fdVMIXzJEXPE by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T11:40:25.562406Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@TransGal4872 @methyltheobromine They were WIPED out.Rust4lyfe
(DIR) Post #A68T4Bo7XBQsKEGwNc by TransGal4872@fedi.absturztau.be
2021-04-11T11:40:26.250217Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@footjamfan @methyltheobromine Rust is what the Jargon file calls a Bondage & Discipline language. and, for all it's pedantry, I still managed to segfault rust the first time I tried it.
(DIR) Post #A68T8LSPb9MnPc6FMW by methyltheobromine@netzsphaere.xyz
2021-04-11T11:41:11.178930Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@footjamfan @TransGal4872 python makes it easier to write fail safe code. Should python replace C? good luck booting a python OS running a python kernel
(DIR) Post #A68TFzKfk2on6s7l6e by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T11:42:34.975327Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@TransGal4872 @methyltheobromine yes, by the halting problem, no analysis can effectively guarantee safety for all valid programs - escape hatches have to be put in for practical use. The point is that Rust does a better job at helping the user than C
(DIR) Post #A68TGtTozDPXFSpr8q by TransGal4872@fedi.absturztau.be
2021-04-11T11:42:44.001360Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@footjamfan @methyltheobromine furthermore, the eradication of Assembly by the theorists and the consequences thereof have been a disaster for the programming community
(DIR) Post #A68TL6OstHXkTjX6BM by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T11:43:30.510028Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@methyltheobromine @TransGal4872 a) python isn't low level, b) python doesn't help the user - it's dynamically typed - worse than C IMO
(DIR) Post #A68TLfEpMfIMWg63rk by TransGal4872@fedi.absturztau.be
2021-04-11T11:43:36.709038Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@footjamfan @methyltheobromine no, it doesn't; it makes simple tasks 10 times harder to do for no good reason.it's a religion.
(DIR) Post #A68TO8U1bRMTo7NrIO by VD15@pl.valkyrie.world
2021-04-11T11:44:03.546129Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@TransGal4872 @footjamfan @methyltheobromine embrace tradition
(DIR) Post #A68TOZIbtzH2yXFcki by TransGal4872@fedi.absturztau.be
2021-04-11T11:44:08.235955Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@footjamfan @methyltheobromine Rust isn't low level, it's a perfect comparison.
(DIR) Post #A68TRjZOAl9fhKbn7I by TransGal4872@fedi.absturztau.be
2021-04-11T11:44:42.559186Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@VD15 @footjamfan @methyltheobromine I care neither for tradition or novelty, I care about what works.
(DIR) Post #A68TSWVAFFtHSQ0bpo by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T11:44:50.870451Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@TransGal4872 @methyltheobromine it is low level in the same sense that C is low level
(DIR) Post #A68TVGtqi0eBwCriue by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T11:45:20.696141Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@TransGal4872 @methyltheobromine the good reason is heartbleed
(DIR) Post #A68Ta5G9PlYLHfak2y by TransGal4872@fedi.absturztau.be
2021-04-11T11:46:13.131776Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@footjamfan @methyltheobromine no, C is midlevel because you still have access to the bytes and words. Try and do that in rust, you get yelled at.
(DIR) Post #A68TeU2nCy4zJIRQcy by methyltheobromine@netzsphaere.xyz
2021-04-11T11:47:00.634294Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@footjamfan @TransGal4872 I think you confuse C and C++
(DIR) Post #A68Tfloic8M8ioTJnU by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T11:47:14.318796Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@TransGal4872 @VD15 @methyltheobromine rust works
(DIR) Post #A68TgITFCzmpzlg8PI by yes@social.handholding.io
2021-04-11T11:47:20.698157Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@methyltheobromine @footjamfan rust is node 2.0 now with more safety memes
(DIR) Post #A68Tis9FX0rVE5YQSG by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T11:47:48.281061Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@TransGal4872 @VD15 @methyltheobromine rust works
(DIR) Post #A68TltnRrL85CunfZg by yes@social.handholding.io
2021-04-11T11:48:21.399894Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@methyltheobromine @footjamfan @TransGal4872 people who think c and c++ are the same language can safely have their opinions discarded
(DIR) Post #A68Tn2QBHJhkFJSafI by TransGal4872@fedi.absturztau.be
2021-04-11T11:48:32.622283Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@footjamfan @methyltheobromine honestly, the fact that you're complaining about the halting problem makes me suspicious of your experience; a good kernel has to be non-deterministic
(DIR) Post #A68TydnQewWBLcroDw by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T11:50:37.830113Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@TransGal4872 @methyltheobromine non-determinism doesn't have anything to do with the halting problem
(DIR) Post #A68U1XBNhn2JhkRxuS by TransGal4872@fedi.absturztau.be
2021-04-11T11:51:10.773199Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@footjamfan @methyltheobromine :cirno_laughing:
(DIR) Post #A68U4f5kkto16TJD4S by TransGal4872@fedi.absturztau.be
2021-04-11T11:51:44.287524Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@footjamfan @methyltheobromine wrong, you fail compsci101 forever
(DIR) Post #A68U9yRQF3coYwyf1U by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T11:52:42.156841Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@TransGal4872 @methyltheobromine Universal turing machine can simulate a non-deterministic turing machine. Maybe take CS101 before you try and comment about the halting problem online.
(DIR) Post #A68ULk77Kx8VbN5kiu by TransGal4872@fedi.absturztau.be
2021-04-11T11:54:42.053052Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@footjamfan @methyltheobromine :cirno_laughing: wrong kind of non-determinism
(DIR) Post #A68UNTQeLHL0Qw3MWW by Sterence@sleepy.cafe
2021-04-11T11:55:08.841834Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@yes @methyltheobromine @TransGal4872 @footjamfan but they both have the letter C in them
(DIR) Post #A68UWrTGK7F3bZkfOi by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T11:56:50.315630Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@TransGal4872 @methyltheobromine ahh sorry, didn't realise we were using C (read: wrong) definitions of standard computing terms.
(DIR) Post #A68UnwGRktEJOUtswq by TransGal4872@fedi.absturztau.be
2021-04-11T11:59:53.697992Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@footjamfan @methyltheobromine I'm using terms invented by a late turing award winner, dunno what you think you're on about.
(DIR) Post #A68V05ZywpH9l8pcRM by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T12:02:06.979465Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@TransGal4872 @methyltheobromine okay, I'll bite, what definition of non-determinism are you using here?(because irrespective of what it is, it wouldn't have any influence on the halting problem, which is a limitation of what is theoretically computable)
(DIR) Post #A68VgIcGrp5AM51tq4 by TransGal4872@fedi.absturztau.be
2021-04-11T12:09:44.109099Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@footjamfan @methyltheobromine Dr. Robert W. Floyd's Nondeterministic Algorithms, meaning an algorithm which can have a different output for the same initial input; it's the definition used in the study of P-NP, and is usually expanded to include algorithms that can be halting or non-halting.a nondeterministic turing machine is just a specific case of the broad concept; a program that takes two different actions based on user input is another application of the same principle.
(DIR) Post #A68Y84ls8W1HQptREu by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T12:37:10.579777Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@TransGal4872 @methyltheobromine yes that was the definition I was using.The P-NP split is about p-time vs np-time problems, i.e talking about the runtime of computable problems.
(DIR) Post #A68YfE8cKcG62TL7Uu by footjamfan@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T12:43:10.127766Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@TransGal4872 @methyltheobromine an OS being non-deterministic implies nothing about the computability of analysis used to verify it. The halting problem is a classical reference for the challenges of static analysis - halting is uncomputable, and therefore all static analyses must always be an overapproximation. It doesn't matter if the thing you're analysing is non-deterministic or not, that won't change the fact that your analysis can never be complete. Techniques such as abstract interpretation can indeed handle non-deterministic programs (in fact, path insensitive analyses are exactly that), but it doesn't change the computability of the problem.
(DIR) Post #A68Yzj7qpVqrw9kxGK by TransGal4872@fedi.absturztau.be
2021-04-11T12:46:52.624548Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@footjamfan @methyltheobromine any non-trivial program that has a GUI will have a non-halting path in it. expect it, plan for it.
(DIR) Post #A68j5iLxc6xGovqk4W by r@freesoftwareextremist.com
2021-04-11T14:39:59.029185Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@footjamfan @methyltheobromine Doesn't rust depend on libc?
(DIR) Post #A68mAzVZYi3PKuYMzo by hyphen@anime.website
2021-04-11T15:14:33.900190Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@methyltheobromine @footjamfan traits are constraints on generality that can be solved at compile-time (a la interfaces), not rows that may carry state (a la objects) that may be generated at runtime and passed around.i think your confusion stems from how snake oil salesmen seem to shape the concept of oop into this vague borderless cloud.though in all fairness the line can be blurred when even these distinct concepts are overloaded to increase their power.See also typeclasses & implicits.
(DIR) Post #A68mNZsw8WCndFU2hk by hyphen@anime.website
2021-04-11T15:16:51.337331Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@TransGal4872 @footjamfan @methyltheobromine based