Post A5mN4FcK8LUBCv5Dk0 by metalune@fosstodon.org
(DIR) More posts by metalune@fosstodon.org
(DIR) Post #A5lslJA3jeBG4XujGS by metalune@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T14:09:47Z
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@LinuxLounge what's a trans day?
(DIR) Post #A5ltSesyq7gJtyb2pc by huy_ngo@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T14:17:35Z
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@metalunehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Transgender_Day_of_Visibility @LinuxLounge
(DIR) Post #A5ltT661fj9yIFuLPk by person@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T14:17:39Z
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@metalune It seems like yet another made up holiday to sell people stuff.
(DIR) Post #A5ltZUscRJKGtdgk8O by metalune@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T14:18:52Z
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@huy_ngo @LinuxLounge "their contribution to society" is there a contribution that trans people do to society that non-trans people don't? or is this trying to say something else?
(DIR) Post #A5ltpfu3DvR7iX4Y7M by huy_ngo@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T14:21:38Z
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@metalune> is there a contribution that trans people do to society that non-trans people don'tNo, but many people would pretend otherwise. That is, lots of trans-haters and LGBT-haters would insist that they don't deserve rights because they don't contribute to the society. @LinuxLounge
(DIR) Post #A5ltpwWDRnTJFX3FpI by metalune@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T14:21:46Z
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@LinuxLounge @huy_ngo oh well, so it's a holiday for people who think that trans people aren't just as human as non-trans people?
(DIR) Post #A5ltt6dmGpypVk63pA by metalune@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T14:22:23Z
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@huy_ngo @LinuxLounge I seeee, so it's just for people who don't believe that trans-people are normal people?
(DIR) Post #A5lu5XIqxwMDg7Ejke by metalune@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T14:24:37Z
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@LinuxLounge @huy_ngo yeah yeah that's what I'm trying to say, it would be of no use if most people would see trans-people as normal people
(DIR) Post #A5luGtGjday2zPezBo by huy_ngo@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T14:26:30Z
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@metalune @LinuxLounge Yea, the same goes for pride parades and other celebration of minorities.
(DIR) Post #A5lx1j0fnXhUgrbigy by XxAlexXx@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T14:57:35Z
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@person @metalune Only one thing to say, I am a person of equality in mind. If your a douchebag who is trans,black or a religious minority for that matter, I don't give af. I will be a jerk to you. Id your a good guy and just want to chill around,have a cup of coffee. We could be homies even. My only requirement: Don't be a snitch and don't be a douché.
(DIR) Post #A5lxBSuWVdfRehNKxk by metalune@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T14:59:20Z
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@XxAlexXx @person I don't get why it would be any different.
(DIR) Post #A5lxKOFDEBndn0JAUC by XxAlexXx@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T15:00:58Z
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@metalune @person Well people want a sense of superiority and they adress these people as outcasts in which they can show superiority. Its human cruelty which has to be removed from the core.
(DIR) Post #A5lxSbl2rwha187HGq by metalune@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T15:02:25Z
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@XxAlexXx @person oh yeah I like that sense of superiority as well from time to time but I like playing it on a higher playing field than just your fucking body.
(DIR) Post #A5lyRbClXUTny1AIue by XxAlexXx@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T15:13:27Z
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@metalune @person Well not everyone is like you. And body shaming is like a sense of superiourity. I have no clue why but it is what it is
(DIR) Post #A5m2Qb1x6N8mx9suAq by ChristiJunior@freespeechextremist.com
2021-03-31T15:56:38.398905Z
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@LinuxLounge Damn, that's cancerous.Tranny Furries should just stop being pussies and go Full Otherkin.
(DIR) Post #A5m68ADmRGbMPTsp96 by spacehorse@mastodon.online
2021-03-31T16:39:34Z
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@metalune @huy_ngo @LinuxLounge hey shut the fuck up
(DIR) Post #A5mBfQIEClYFaBdslE by wolfcoder@mastodon.social
2021-03-31T17:41:36Z
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@person @metalune I'd like to think you're just too lazy to have looked this up on Wikipedia because the alternative is that you're intentionally being transphobic.
(DIR) Post #A5mCoU2djl3BlkEeAa by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T17:54:28Z
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@wolfcoder @person It's a cool counter-culture “I'll pretend I act as though we live in the society we *should* live in” emulated confusion (like the sort I used to do), and I don't think @metalune realises how close to transmisic rhetoric this is.It's not the kind of sarcasm that works outside of small groups; I'd recommend against trying it again.
(DIR) Post #A5mEzAeyL18WkeOABk by metalune@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T18:18:48Z
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@spacehorse @huy_ngo @LinuxLounge care to elaborate?
(DIR) Post #A5mF4u1x4vS8uis1nE by metalune@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T18:19:51Z
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@wolfcoder @person why would I be transphobic? I don't mind them? they're just as human as we all are, I don't know why there is even an argument about that.
(DIR) Post #A5mFDTlM6uHa3JCHmi by metalune@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T18:21:22Z
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@wizzwizz4 @wolfcoder @person there is probably some thruth to that, but to be real, I've never met a transphobe in my entire life, at least none that I noticed them being transphobic
(DIR) Post #A5mGR04jNtk9zEGs0e by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T18:35:02Z
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@metalune @wolfcoder @person Yeah, there aren't as high concentrations of such people 'round where you live, and afaik you're cis-passing? Not surprising you haven't encountered any irl.There're many people who have little better to do than find online groups of trans people who live in dangerous-to-be-trans places, then cyberbully them en-masse. We've even had them visit Fosstodon. I'm surprised, if you're counting online interactions.
(DIR) Post #A5mGRQNPb48RYhD9jk by spacehorse@mastodon.online
2021-03-31T18:35:06Z
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@metalune @huy_ngo @LinuxLounge sure: delete ur account
(DIR) Post #A5mGZkGVXFD7Yhwvc8 by metalune@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T18:36:37Z
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@wizzwizz4 @wolfcoder @person in only interactions I don't really notice it either because I usually don't talk about this stuff.
(DIR) Post #A5mGbq9EdOdYNnXxKK by metalune@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T18:37:01Z
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@spacehorse @huy_ngo @LinuxLounge care to reformulate, read what I said before, reconsider, and then talk to me like a real person and not an automated bot?
(DIR) Post #A5mHOYYqoJYg1ml3XE by spacehorse@mastodon.online
2021-03-31T18:45:46Z
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@metalune @huy_ngo @LinuxLounge no
(DIR) Post #A5mHW4HxFMvqSKR8tc by metalune@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T18:47:05Z
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@spacehorse @huy_ngo @LinuxLounge well, then fuck off. If you aren't able/don't want to engage in a meaningful conversation, please don't even bother leaving a comment to begin with. Have a nice day.
(DIR) Post #A5mHu4hFNjJ6ffiLuC by metalune@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T18:51:30Z
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@huy_ngo @LinuxLounge alright. let me explain. like @wizzwizz4 already pointed it in a way, this was not to be transphobic, or to diss trans people, I am trying to point out how crazy the fact is that we even need to celebrate it is. the fact that it isn't something that is there by default. Have a nice day anybody.
(DIR) Post #A5mJHib9IJXR2RhSc4 by spacehorse@mastodon.online
2021-03-31T19:06:58Z
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@metalune @huy_ngo @LinuxLounge gargle my balls
(DIR) Post #A5mJPsIB8V1JQ8iSIK by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:08:27Z
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@metalune The day is important to spacehorse, and you were shitting on it. (I'm not berating you; I just want you to have as much opportunity to learn from your mistakes as I've had.)
(DIR) Post #A5mJZgs0SSwStK9eYC by metalune@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:10:13Z
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@wizzwizz4 yeah, I wasn't trying to shit on it, really, I formulated my initial comments very poorly, I've realized that, that's why I was asking for spacehorse to reformulate so we could resolve a potential misunderstanding.
(DIR) Post #A5mJi0UnNGyQ4lGP0i by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:11:43Z
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@metalune No clue how it sounded in your head, but from out here it sounded like you were tone policing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_policingIf you're the one who messed up (as here), the onus is on you to recover from the situation; you shouldn't demand others do so.
(DIR) Post #A5mJvvjrrCoFNPx7om by metalune@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:14:15Z
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@wizzwizz4 The problem is if I don't know what exactly the problem is I can only try to guess how I could resolve it. I noticed that I said it wrong. But I will not apologize to somebody yelling insults at me without caring to elaborate why exactly. (btw, thank you for elaborating further on your views on this, very helpful)
(DIR) Post #A5mKL3IQtabI3V6DMO by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:18:46Z
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@metalune They didn't start it. You did. (Accidentally, yes, but intent only goes so far over text.)Instead of saying “care to elaborate?”, perhaps something like:> I'm not trying to be hurtful. Could you point out what I've said wrong, please? (It's fine if not; I can ask somebody else.)That's pretty much my go-to in this kind of situation (though I haven't actually got into one since I developed this procedure, so it might still backfire horribly).
(DIR) Post #A5mKTJqVFU4hhQyeY4 by metalune@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:20:15Z
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@wizzwizz4 uhm.. may I ask what is wrong with "care to elaborate" ?
(DIR) Post #A5mKmRpnlsDLyhlq76 by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:23:44Z
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@metalune It's a low-effort way of applying social pressure for another person to expend significant effort into teaching you. How can they tell you from a troll, to see it's worth the effort, even if they have the capacity to do so? See also: “You Don't Have to Educate Me” (or similar wording).Making it higher-effort, and reducing the social pressure, makes it kinder. Also, people acting in bad faith rarely do that, so you're more likely to get an answer.
(DIR) Post #A5mKrxDgVcw0lWZEBM by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:24:44Z
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@metalune Also, the thing you said about “meaningful conversation”? That's really dangerous reasoning.> If you can't articulate your objection in a way I can readily understand, you may not object.See how little I had to stretch your argument to get to this point? It's *not* what you said, but if you can make a concrete objection to my straw-argument (e.g. “but then how do people know when they're doing something wrong?”), it probably applies to your stance too.
(DIR) Post #A5mL43CY5xfAnBnuXQ by metalune@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:26:56Z
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@wizzwizz4 oh my fucking lord this is getting annoying, what the hell happened to "assume people mean well" maybe I'll just take a break from all this. I'm giving somebody the opportunity to explain their problems to me. I'm not gonna run and try to understand their problems by myself, but I am open to let people explain and discuss them with me. If we continue down this path we'll end up just bubblewrapping formulations more and more fearing that they might get it wrong.
(DIR) Post #A5mLEbtNyCWXHQsM6a by metalune@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:28:49Z
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@wizzwizz4 I still don't know what their problem was. All they did was tell me "hey shut the fuck up" I am sorry but what in the fucking fuck am I supposed to do with that? Am I supposed to suck their fucking balls and ask for them to enlighten me. I am sorry but what the fuck is this shit?
(DIR) Post #A5mLN3ztMP50lLwwzo by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:30:21Z
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@metalune Trolls, TERFs and Nazis happened to “assume people mean well”. On Fedi, people assume you mean well *unless you sound like you're a bad-faith actor*; what you wrote sounded very similar to existing bad-faith rhetoric.You don't get that kind of reaction otherwise. Learning to recognise it, and how to deal with it, is pretty much The™ social skill you need around here; people forgive all else.It took me three incidents, plus observing others; I hope it'll take you fewer.
(DIR) Post #A5mLTq9JFIAZqBaOzA by metalune@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:31:35Z
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@wizzwizz4 You can see the obvious problem with this tho, right? The problem where we bubblewrap and avoid so many things that it becomes unfeasonably hard to have a real conversation?
(DIR) Post #A5mLa7AUsjFyMW8LLM by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:32:42Z
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@metalune You're *supposed* to leave them alone.You received an objection. That is valuable feedback. If that's all you got, you could still learn via trial-and-error. From somebody who clearly doesn't *want* to engage with you (even if they're mistaken about you), that's a good-faith gift.You can always ask me; I will try to help. Then you can try apologising or making up, if you think you need to, preferably without getting to the point of a proper falling-out.
(DIR) Post #A5mLkFLBLswybVxkBc by metalune@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:34:28Z
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@wizzwizz4 what. the. fuck. but fine, Imma just fuck right off because this is not the kinda group I want to interact with. But this won't be the last time, I'm still hoping to one day be able to talk to a person in a reasonable, constructive way. I'm heading off for the woods.
(DIR) Post #A5mLn4AxJrkgqTWY2i by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:34:54Z
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@metalune I didn't say “bubble-wrap […] so many things”. I have only ever needed to go into “tiptoes” mode in *this specific kind of situation*; everywhere else, I can just say whatever with flagrant disregard for social rules.You need to put effort in when this happens, to distinguish yourself from the bad-faith actors. Consider it a CAPTCHA, if that helps, and remember that (if I'm online) you can always ask me for help.
(DIR) Post #A5mM0S3tp3HMgwbdHE by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:37:28Z
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@metalune I guess you don't realise how *massive* the social faux-pas you committed was. IRL, that's the kind of thing where people would gasp, or leave the room, and your reputation would take a hit, but unless you were aware of the body language and signs, you probably wouldn't know what had happened.Instead, some people tried to explain why you were wrong, and some others told you off. If you'd been less blunt asking for clarification, there probably would've been zero problems.
(DIR) Post #A5mM8nvePCT2pMjMKu by tobtobxx@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:38:55Z
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@wizzwizz4 @metalune Not related to this specific discussion, but I disagree with your stance.If you put an opinion, you have to be ready to defend it. You have to be ready to get attacked and you have to be ready to explain it.It is not ok, to attack an opinion, but the one responsible for not letting the escalation happen is the one putting the opinion. (Because you can't steer n possible reply-ers to keep calm, but you can steer 1 opinion holder.)
(DIR) Post #A5mMBoyywbFCxqj9zU by metalune@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:39:27Z
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@wizzwizz4 great. I told you I know that I formulated it wrongly. But this is the kind of behavior I've always been against. and this isn't IRL, here you don't have to leave a comment. If you don't like it either don't say anything or say something and be ready to explain.
(DIR) Post #A5mMX7wVe7BJqijL2O by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:43:23Z
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@tobtobxx @metalune Okay, think of it this way.Four hundred people over the last month have had pretty much the same bad take, which feels like an attack on what you hold dear. It hurts to see it, every time. How *should* you react?
(DIR) Post #A5mMbt2OUSAl4OkhfM by metalune@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:44:14Z
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@wizzwizz4 @tobtobxx either you shouldn't. or you should be able to defend your stance. There is nobody forcing you to react here, it's a public forum, anybody can reply if they want, or not reply if they don't.
(DIR) Post #A5mMw37wgfLE9axmrY by tobtobxx@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:47:53Z
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@metalune @wizzwizz4 Yeah, I can go behind that.It's sort of like what I did with the RMS discussions. I don't have a strong opinion. If you ask my gut, I'm slightly in favor of him returning, but because I don't want to argue with anyone about this topic (I'm malinformed and I don't have a personal affection), I just never said anything.Keep around the people that care for your rights and opinions, if this is important to you. Mute the others.
(DIR) Post #A5mMwowauAmYSI1Opk by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:48:02Z
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@metalune @tobtobxx Okay, and then there are 500 people sharing that bad take the next month.And that bad take is adjacent to the bad take that's leading to people passing laws to make it illegal for you to get medical treatment.And thanks in part to that, you don't have the mental capacity to give a detailed rebuttal to even one – you're choosing between *that*, and having any kind of enjoyable downtime today.
(DIR) Post #A5mN4FcK8LUBCv5Dk0 by metalune@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:49:10Z
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@wizzwizz4 @tobtobxx then tell me: how is "hey shut the fuck up" going to stop the 500 people. Ever heard of "it doesn't help to silence somebody, you gotta prove them wrong publicly"
(DIR) Post #A5mNKmylrVTjJMT7XE by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:52:20Z
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@metalune @tobtobxx I can't speak for everyone.• Showing that there isn't consensus is important when those 100 people are seeing the take, and might be swayed by it. (Assuming it's one of the propaganday ones, which yours wasn't – but it read similarly.)• Not everything is goal-focused. Saying “hey shut the fuck up” IRL to that sort of thing can get some ostracised or stabbed.1/2
(DIR) Post #A5mNUsn3703oEHnbAu by tobtobxx@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:54:11Z
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@wizzwizz4 @metalune The basis of a fair democracy is reason. Now I agree that many lost it. And this in fact does make the actions you described sometimes more effective than the calm way. But is it the right one?I would be
(DIR) Post #A5mNVEXYFIjfgaiX4a by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:54:13Z
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@metalune @tobtobxx And most importantly:• This is *trans day of visibility*. It's the day we should leave off these hot takes and let trans people be visible, as much as we can, so it isn't Yet Another Day that they are just talked over, sidelined, harassed and ignored.This last point might go some way to explaining just how big a social blunder you made, though I'm not sure how I can articulate it.2/2
(DIR) Post #A5mNZuLsjTiKWNUJ96 by tobtobxx@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:55:05Z
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@wizzwizz4 @metalune The basis of a fair democracy is reason. Now I agree that many lost it. And this in fact does make the actions you described sometimes more effective than the calm way. But is it the right one?I would be more in favor of a civil discussion, even if it doesn't get the masses.
(DIR) Post #A5mNgPxk7MSGIVIjbs by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:56:15Z
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@tobtobxx And @metalune had one with me. One that wouldn't've happened had that objection not been raised in the first place.Are you familiar with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoon_theory?
(DIR) Post #A5mNmIDbp5Qe17WXsO by tobtobxx@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T19:57:18Z
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@wizzwizz4 @metalune Fair point, but spaceface (or whatever he was called) had the chance to explain why it is important. If I read correctly, LinuxLounge did do that, and I think it would have helped the visibility.(and can we slow down the discussion?)
(DIR) Post #A5mOTXpvdC5GuL4VJw by tobtobxx@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T20:05:08Z
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@wizzwizz4 @metalune I am not familiar with it. It is an interesting read.Are you applying the spoon theory to you or to other commenters on this thread?And uhm... how do I put this... I didn't get what you meant with the first paragraph. You did have a civil discussion with @metalune, but it wouldn't have happened, @metalune hadn't written something that was picked up as attacking? (I think there's nothing bad in a civil discussion, even if it is sparked by stuff like this.)
(DIR) Post #A5mPSfpGXdVPLnuUTI by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T20:16:10Z
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@tobtobxx I suppose to myself, though it's more a (somewhat pre-emptive) response to:> [spacehorse] had the chance to explain why it is importantand similar. Not everyone's neurotypical.---It wouldn't've happened had spacehorse not told @metalune off. I wouldn't've said anything, but I thought I could act as intermediary (since I understand metalune a little, and spacehorse's sentiment a little). Trying to identify spacehorse's objection allowed me to well-formulate my own.
(DIR) Post #A5mPn4cw2cHc3ss0NU by metalune@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T20:19:53Z
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@wizzwizz4 @tobtobxx wait wait, what does "told me off" mean here? they blatantly insulted me. that's all this did. nothing more and nothing else. it was an from-their-side unexplained insult.
(DIR) Post #A5mPnU45SnrAxKlXfc by tobtobxx@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T20:19:54Z
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@wizzwizz4 @metalune (1) Understandable. It would've been more beneficial if they would've just said nothing, but when emotionally fatigued, accidents like this can happen.(2) I appreciate your effort. Thank you for investing this energy.
(DIR) Post #A5mQDplpNy93nsn248 by metalune@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T20:24:41Z
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@wizzwizz4 @tobtobxx after reading @tobtobxx comment. yes, thank you for your effort in replying here and arguing. :)
(DIR) Post #A5mQOFDRdQU3cJfhA0 by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-03-31T20:26:35Z
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@metalune @tobtobxx The explanation was implicit: “you done messed up”. I understand that you didn't understand that, so I'll tell you more plainly: 1. When somebody suddenly acts like they hate you, you've probably upset them. 2. If you've just said something and they're replying directly to that, *that's* probably the thing that's upset them. 3. If they're not being diplomatic, they likely think you're a troll or bigot or otherwise not worth the effort.