Post A4xKNNVzU4Yb3pBAPI by loke@functional.cafe
(DIR) More posts by loke@functional.cafe
(DIR) Post #A4xHbvGWUu1ZvaBiU4 by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-07T04:17:17Z
3 likes, 4 repeats
As a scientist I have an innate desire to want to use metric measurements. But as an someone born in America I also have a desire to use obscure measurements no other sane person in the civilized world would ever consider using. As such I have decided that from now on I will use femtoparsecs and attoparsecs for all measurements of length.I am 57.6 attoparsecs tallMy jeep gets 344 femtoparsecs to the liter
(DIR) Post #A4xJTSa1SukeYLOvqq by mur2501@qoto.org
2021-03-07T04:38:13Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo It seems Muricans are mutating :blobcatsuit:
(DIR) Post #A4xJwjiGqOn45WDeC0 by loke@functional.cafe
2021-03-07T04:43:33Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@mur2501 @freemo I prefer to stick with the one true measurement system: Planck units.I am 1.1013×1035 Planck lengths tall.
(DIR) Post #A4xK3F1hKommwTPLvM by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-07T04:44:36Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@loke A bit cumbersome, but at least it is precise :)@mur2501
(DIR) Post #A4xKI8HCiGcULqlGjo by mur2501@qoto.org
2021-03-07T04:47:25Z
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@loke @freemo I am a philosopher in science so no measurements exists for me as everything is just relative and changes on our perspective.There is no absolute truth to the world.I kill 10 people, or kill 10^6 people, doesn't makes any difference :blobcatgoogly:
(DIR) Post #A4xKJ55Y3FLwkmlIGG by loke@functional.cafe
2021-03-07T04:47:28Z
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@freemo @mur2501 Kelvin still has an arbitrary unit (coming from Celsius). Planck temperature is the best. It's 2.1679×10-30 Planck temperature outside.
(DIR) Post #A4xKNNVzU4Yb3pBAPI by loke@functional.cafe
2021-03-07T04:48:23Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mur2501 @freemo To be fair, Planck units does away with that in some respects. I guess a Planck population would be either 0 (no people) or 1 (all the people).
(DIR) Post #A4xKNb7KuX9dFPkfvE by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-07T04:48:24Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mur2501 you scare me sometimes...@loke
(DIR) Post #A4xL7KF9ymv6EeDSDI by mur2501@qoto.org
2021-03-07T04:55:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@loke @freemo It's all a game of perspective where you see people, I see atoms, freemo sees waves, and no one sees reality
(DIR) Post #A4xLHlHKJq5ayjCouu by loke@functional.cafe
2021-03-07T04:58:33Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mur2501 @freemo If you ask Sean Carroll he'd say he sees wavefunctions and that is reality. His arguments in favour of Everett's interpretation of QM is quite convincing. Or rather, it's the input explanation that is even remotely convincing to me.
(DIR) Post #A4xLK7InPG0zrZ13Tc by loke@functional.cafe
2021-03-07T04:59:00Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mur2501 @freemo If you ask Sean Carroll he'd say he sees wavefunctions and that is reality. His arguments in favour of Everett's interpretation of QM is quite convincing. Or rather, it's the only explanation that I know of that is even remotely convincing to me.
(DIR) Post #A4xLM5rliSTpzMJhvU by loke@functional.cafe
2021-03-07T04:59:15Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mur2501 @freemo If you ask Sean Carroll he'd say he sees wavefunctions and that is reality. His arguments in favour of Everett's interpretation of QM is quite convincing. Or rather, it's the only explanation that I find even remotely convincing.
(DIR) Post #A4xSBeQ7bVBxeMLwH2 by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-07T06:15:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@johnabs I had considered that though I wasnt quite prepared to do parsec area :)
(DIR) Post #A4yArlYzpeLvwwOd4C by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-03-07T14:35:38Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo I think metric is the clear winner in scientific areas where you have to switch between scales at least a half dozen orders of magnitude apart.But in engineering, Metric has no clear replacement for:* Pounds per square inch* Foot-pounds (torque)* Foot-pounds (work)These are intuitive to anyone who knows inch, foot, and pound.Pascals and Joules are obviously not intuitive, and neither are Newton-meters because meter-long wrenches are exceedingly rare.
(DIR) Post #A4yDIlMGu2uX2YRf0K by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-03-07T14:48:49Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo What's more PSI, ft/lb (torque) are surprisingly well suited to things which a mechanic or machinist encounters in their day-to-day:* Shop (compressed) air is typically around 100-120 PSI* Car tires are inflated to about 30 PSI* Most bolts are torqued to between 10 and 100 ft/lbs* Natural gas at the main is typically around 10 PSI* Propane tanks are between 100 and 200 PSIMetric system = top-down designImperial system = bottom-up evolution
(DIR) Post #A4yDIlixXh3iAv3mMq by duponin@udongein.xyz
2021-03-07T15:03:47.137126Z
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@cjd @freemo > These are intuitive to anyone who knows inch, foot, and pound.That's everything but an argumentSame can be said about metric too tho12 inches in a foot and 1280 feet in a mile, sure it's intuitiveSure both are different because of historBut to be able to correlate different things is really handy:10cm³ -> 1L1M³ -> 1000LVs23ft³ -> 639154Oz (wtf means Oz btw?)Even if you don't do "science" everyday it's really useful and*logic*
(DIR) Post #A4yVKZedBeowUm2uQa by pthenq1@mastodon.la
2021-03-07T18:20:25Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemoYou are truly a patriot
(DIR) Post #A4yrNXUPtEnzdr5T28 by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-07T22:32:47Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@duponinEven forgetting prefixes the metric ATM is literally the pressure as a multiple of atmosphere pressure. This seems way more intuitive than PSI@cjd
(DIR) Post #A4yrknmhTKF2q8jQjQ by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-07T22:37:00Z
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@cjdAn ATM is far more intuitive than a PSI even if you work with foots pounds and inches, its literally a multiple of ambient atmosphere pressure.But the problem with your whole premise is your saying "as long as i already work with obscure and confusing measurements, and as long as i never have to work with them at large or amall scales, their great".. everything about that statement suggests their broken, especially considering that you cant in any practical sense avoid working with them at scale anyway.
(DIR) Post #A4ysT6EeEYDqo0vWXA by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-03-07T22:44:58Z
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@freemo Well, if you're SCUBA diving then ATM is very useful and logical. But if you're dealing with compressed air or hydraulic, say you have a piston of 1.5 square inch area and you're running 5000psi hydraulic on that piston, you can do it in your head that you're going to have 7500 pounds of force on that piston. Now try that with ATM and Newtons...
(DIR) Post #A4yt0F1aZlozcbcbz6 by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-07T22:51:02Z
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@cjd "say you have this piston of this really obscure and confusing measurement called an inch and it is 1.5 square inch".... thats not an argument for it in my mind as it relies on the idea that PSI is more useful only if you already know an obscure measurement no one uses outside of the USA and is inherently less useful as it doesnt allow for metric prefixes...On the other hand lets say you had a piston of an actually more useful base measurement, say 1.5 cm squared... all of a sudden metric is just as easy and with multiple additional advantages not the least of which being that the base unit is more intuitive
(DIR) Post #A4ytCWBqa5CSKnH37w by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-03-07T22:53:11Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo Piston of 1.5 cm2 with 200 ATM pressure, how many Newtons of force, no calculator :P
(DIR) Post #A4ytLJLxg47V7zCK3c by mithrandir@pl.wizards.zone
2021-03-07T22:54:55.961700Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cjd @freemo it is obviously 300 atmosphere-centimeters-squared.
(DIR) Post #A4yttrBOPGP9tUj7y4 by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-07T23:01:02Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cjd Pascal would be the metric unit of pressure, ATM is only used in non-workshop settings...1.5 cm2 with 200 pascal pressure is 200 / 1.5 = 133 and 1/3 newtons pressure.
(DIR) Post #A4yuCPIwHVkcvv6OOG by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-03-07T23:04:30Z
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@freemo 1. If there are 2 ways to measure pressure, do you concede that different measurements ought to be used depending on the environment ?2. I find your answer hard to believe given a piston of more surface would exact LESS force with the same pressure...
(DIR) Post #A4yv6EMU9a3NDANavQ by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2021-03-07T23:14:35Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cjd @freemo 3 kN, no calculator.Assuming 1 ATM is 100 kpa, which is probably off by 1%, but nobody's gonna botger with that without a calculator
(DIR) Post #A4yv79OE7mJa54dI3M by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-07T23:14:40Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cjd #1 - sort of.. ATM is only used when no calculations need be applied to it, it is not metric, but its useful if you want to know why your ears popped or when dealing with pressure from altitude changes to know your relative pressure.. Its not really a unit like PSI or pascal is, it is a ratio (the ratio of one pressure to another as in the ratio of pressure at one altitude to another altitude).#2.. You are correct.. I misremembered the unit as N * m^3 it is infact N / m^3.. though that mistake has little to do with the units as the same mistake could just as easily been made on PSI. I literally responded in bed on my cell a few seconds after I woke up, I should have waited till I was up.
(DIR) Post #A4yv9qqLXJ2JQe4bZI by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-07T23:15:13Z
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@wolf480pl yea disregard my answer, I replied a few minutes after i work up, wasnt thinking clearly.@cjd
(DIR) Post #A4ywgrnt5QOluxEK6y by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2021-03-07T23:32:24Z
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@cjd @freemo btw. 1.5cm2 sounds like an awfully small piston, 15cm2 would be seem more appropriate for your everyday excavator
(DIR) Post #A4ywkdN2gpxoJSTBku by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-07T23:33:04Z
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@wolf480pl Its a miniature excavator. 1/10th scale :)@cjd
(DIR) Post #A4ywwBwwSy7Ak8ly7M by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-03-07T23:35:08Z
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@wolf480pl @freemo So basically I'm not saying that the metric system is bad, what I'm saying is that trying to force people to standardize on one system is.* Datacenter people measure in U (4.4cm)* Oil traders use Barrels (159L)* Navel and Aeronautic people use Nautical Miles (1.852km)* Astronomers use Light-year (9460730472580.8km)Only a bureaucratic busybody could think that everyone should switch to the same unit.
(DIR) Post #A4yxQwmauFwYgHb8FM by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-03-07T23:40:43Z
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@freemo @wolf480pl That size would be more common with an air piston indeed, but there are probably cases where a small amount of force is required and only full hydraulic pressure is available...
(DIR) Post #A4yxfqcc5wz5uu2CyO by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2021-03-07T23:43:25Z
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@cjd @freemo ok, but when the systems these people build interface with each other, it's helpful that they can use a common system that both sides understand.For example, instead of calculating an orbit in light-seconds, then converting that to miles to calculate how much fuel you need in gallons, and then someone calculating the mass of said fuel, etc. it's easier to use metric throughout.
(DIR) Post #A4yxmewNvJXpiQWxNY by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2021-03-07T23:44:39Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cjd @freemo s/someone/somehow/
(DIR) Post #A4yy2dju9pOechJU0m by duponin@udongein.xyz
2021-03-07T23:47:33.307080Z
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@wolf480pl @cjd @freemo mandatory quote:"In metric, one milliliter of water occupies one cubic centimeter, weighs one gram, and requires one calorie of energy to heat up by one degree centigrade—which is 1 percent of the difference between its freezing point and its boiling point. An amount of hydrogen weighing the same amount has exactly one mole of atoms in it. Whereas in the American system, the answer to ‘How much energy does it take to boil a room-temperature gallon of water?’ is ‘Go fuck yourself,’ because you can’t directly relate any of those quantities."TL;DRIt's better when everything go together logicallyhttps://alessandrorossini.org/we-can-put-an-end-to-imperial-units/
(DIR) Post #A4yyAyPZBRJv3Km2aW by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-03-07T23:49:02Z
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@wolf480pl @freemo Yup, it's a balancing act, on the one hand you want units which are easy to work with in common computations used in that sector of industry, on the other hand you want interoperability.In practice though, you want to just go along with whatever is being used in the space you're working in, units are political.
(DIR) Post #A4yyjZwM9t4RIBc0zw by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2021-03-07T23:55:18Z
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@cjd @freemo I'm still not sold on pounds per square inch being any easier to work with than pascals or bars (1 bar = 100kPa ~= 1 ATM).Also at least one air disaster happened because someone mixed up lbs and kg when calculating airplane fuel
(DIR) Post #A4yzZQN4ys9Ifmpjrk by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-03-08T00:04:40Z
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@wolf480pl @freemo The problem with kPa is a result of the Newton. If instead of Newtons there was just kg-force then anyone who understood what a kg and a cm is (everyone in Europe) would then be able to reason out the measurements of pressure and torque.
(DIR) Post #A4z3ZFT1vBWUfgmwq0 by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-08T00:49:18Z
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@cjd You seem confused... you said> If instead of Newtons there was just kg-forceA newton is a unit force, so adding kg into it as kg-force makes no sense. A newton (as any force would be) is mass-acceleration which in this case is the standard kg * m/s^2So its already in standard units and all nice simple multiples (unlike PSI which becomes quite confusing in any other multiple like feet)
(DIR) Post #A4z5JjjZp1ELokG8Qq by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-03-08T01:09:01Z
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@freemo Have you ever operated a lathe, milling machine, surface grinder, welder, air compressor, impact wrench, or torque wrench ?
(DIR) Post #A4z5YPcGty5plbq9Nw by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-08T01:11:39Z
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@cjd yes many times both in metric and imperial units. All the ones in the netherlands and europe are exclusively metric of course.In fact aside from a small global population in the USA virtually the entire world of people who work with such things all do so in metric...your point?
(DIR) Post #A4z6HByaShOUUhdAZc by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-08T01:19:46Z
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@cjd You probably dont realize it but doing science tends to require building things, and often those things can be fairly advanced with very critical specifications. A few millimeters off and you wind up with something that doesnt work at all or bad data.Have you ever built a particle accelerator by hand for example?
(DIR) Post #A4z6TWANDmmGaV1N0y by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-03-08T01:22:03Z
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@freemo Before I got into computers I studied Machine Technology, I've used every one of those things I mentioned at least a little. I also replaced a transmission, built a firewood saw, did a fair amount of residential wiring, and my point is that the Metric system is *not bad*, but there are applications where it doesn't make sense.I've definitely never built a particle accelerator, but if I did you can bet I'd be working with the measurements used in that field.
(DIR) Post #A4z730y4h3jeFjC7v6 by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-08T01:28:24Z
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@cjd Your expiernce is not in question. I was merely pointing out that scienctists that tend to take on personal projects need to work with every single one of those pieces of equipment as well. Building devices is hard to escape in most areas of science and they tend to have demanding specifications.Thing is, you havent actually given a single reason that the imperial system is better, the few you gave were simply incorrect (like implying that newtons wasnt based on base metric units).. .yet there are quite a few reasons metric is superior (intuitive units that scale by simple powers of 10).If you could list even one example of how imperial units are easier to work with in any context at all (that doesnt rely on simple familiarity with imperial units itself) then I'd be happy to consider it. But so far there isnt a single advantage mentioned to imperial units of any kind, not a single setting where imperial units are the norm (outside of the USA), and quite a few reasons metric units are suprior.There is a reason the entire world, except the USA, uses metric units whether its science, woodworking, carpentry, metalwork, lathe, or any other field you can imagine.. because its the better choice in every field except in the USA which for whatever reason prefers to stay in the dark ages when it comes to unit of measurements.
(DIR) Post #A4z7dWz58RlnyT4toO by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-03-08T01:35:03Z
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@freemo Havent actually given a single reason that the imperial system is better <-- All I ever wanted to say is that forcing a system of measurement on people is bad. If you could list even one example of how imperial units are easier to work with in any context at all <-- I already told you: PSI, foot-pounds (torque) and foot-pounds (work). They are intuitive to anybody who knows two of the most basic units of that system of measures.
(DIR) Post #A4z8K9WmDoYLg3A78K by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-08T01:42:42Z
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@cjd > I already told you: PSI, foot-pounds (torque) and foot-pounds (work). They are intuitive to anybody who knows two of the most basic units of that system of measures.Yes but that was trivially debunked... Anyone working with the metric system has equivelant units.. Pascal (pressure), Newton-meters (torque) and Newton-meters (work), which require only knowledge of the two most basic units of the metric system, meters and newtons...So you havent in any way given why imperial is superior at all.. you just said "if i already know how to work with these really obscure units that no one in the world but me and people near me use then its easier cause im familiar with it"... thats a horrible excuse considering we live in a wider world..Moreover there ARE disadvantages beyond just familiarity.. the lack of easy to remember prefixes being the most notable which makes the imperial system far far less intuitive when working PSI or foot-pounds at large or small scale, while its trivial to work at large or small scales in the metric equivalent.so while you did try to make that argument it ultimately failed quite poorly IMO.Moreover forcing a system of measurement on a people is only bad if its arbitrary, when the new system of measurement is significantly superior, as metric is, then it isnt a bad thing at all. Americans would be better off in the end by far considering they are adopting a system with many advantages and leaving behind a system without a single advantage aside from familiarity (which is temporary).
(DIR) Post #A4z9MxVzRPLhF9hDkG by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-03-08T01:54:27Z
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@freemo Newtons are not the most basic units of the metric system, a common person only knows kg, cm, meters, km, and L.On the topic of forcing measurement systems on people, have you read Seeing Like A State by James C. Scott? He speaks a bit about the actual history of the Metric system.
(DIR) Post #A4zAR3CWLIjdzU6XLM by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-08T02:06:22Z
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@cjd Everything you said applies just as much to imperial as metric... Newton is no more a basic unit than the pound-force is.. However a newton is a combination of the same units in metric as pound-force is in imperial, except that of course imperial units use convoluted numbers and multiplies where metric does not.In metric is really simple, a newton is the force it takes to make 1 kg of mass accelerate at 1 m/s^2, nice and easy... not so much with the imperial pound-force. 1 pound-force is equal to the force it takes to accelerate 1 pound by 32.174 ft/s2 (good luck remembering that).. or if you really want to get convoluted 1 ounces (an ounce-force) by 514.784 ft/sec^2I think its quite obvious that newtons are far more intuitive and easier to remember than the convoluted pound-force.
(DIR) Post #A4zATK3scsbSrW97x2 by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-08T02:06:48Z
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@cjd Everything you said applies just as much to imperial as metric... Newton is no more a basic unit than the pound-force is.. However a newton is a combination of the same units in metric as pound-force is in imperial, except that of course imperial units use convoluted numbers and multiplies where metric does not.In metric is really simple, a newton is the force it takes to make 1 kg of mass accelerate at 1 m/s^2, nice and easy... not so much with the imperial pound-force. 1 pound-force is equal to the force it takes to accelerate 1 pound by 32.174 ft/s2 (good luck remembering that).. or if you really want to get convoluted 1 ounces (16 ounce-force) by 514.784 ft/sec^2I think its quite obvious that newtons are far more intuitive and easier to remember than the convoluted pound-force.
(DIR) Post #A4zBFQOYNizaPAkkBE by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-03-08T02:15:28Z
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@freemo Everybody in the US knows 1lb mass (from buying food) and 1lb-force is almost the same. A newton would work great if it was almost the same as 1kg, but it's not.But I think the overarching point here is that forcing people to change their units of measure is, and has always been, an act of colonialism. Historically it has usually been combined with forcing people to change their language and religion.
(DIR) Post #A4zC23XK9qT5hT2owC by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-08T02:24:13Z
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@cjd A newton is the same idea s a pound-force but applies to kg with simpler numbers.. 10 kg in weight is similar the same force (exerted due to gravity) as 1 newton.. everyone is familiar with it too. the difference is the math is based on simple multiples of 10...Now ask any random american to calculate something from a pound-force and the numbers are so convoluted even experienced people often cant.. "What if I apply 5 ounce-force to a ton of bricks how fast will it accelerate".. good luck finding a single american who can answer that... however ask "if i apply 5 millinewton to 10 kg of metal how fast will it accelerate", then youc an do the math in your head and most europeans would have little problem doing it if they know even basic math.Sorry but i am not seeing where the advantage of a pound-force is here at all.
(DIR) Post #A4zCzljNUHm1qt9igy by mithrandir@pl.wizards.zone
2021-03-08T02:35:08.531115Z
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@cjd @freemo isn't 1 newton defined as the weight of 1 kilogram on the surface of the Earth?
(DIR) Post #A4zD79IyEommzcK67M by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-08T02:36:23Z
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@mithrandir No it isnt, thankfully.. it is acceleration of 1 m/s^2@cjd
(DIR) Post #A4zDDgoWZ7faelCW1o by mithrandir@pl.wizards.zone
2021-03-08T02:37:39.491106Z
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@freemo @cjd huh... so 10 newtons is pretty close to the weight of 1 kilogram on Earth's surface
(DIR) Post #A4zDMBchtuLqWij1H6 by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-08T02:39:07Z
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@mithrandir 9.1418 newtons would be pretty close yea.@cjd
(DIR) Post #A4zDXde03nFscKn4rY by mithrandir@pl.wizards.zone
2021-03-08T02:41:15.112362Z
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@freemo @cjd *~9.8
(DIR) Post #A4zDgCFZHQDsGKRZ0C by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-08T02:42:43Z
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@mithrandir Ooops, yes your right.. my brain mixed it with the first few digits of pi apparently :)@cjd
(DIR) Post #A4zEL5icT6iJsWX3jM by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-03-08T02:45:10Z
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@mithrandir @freemo Hmm so 1 newton-meter of torque can be imagined as roughly 1kg worth of force on the end of a 10cm wrench, this is not bad but foot-pound has it right in the name...
(DIR) Post #A4zEL68qtZhJBso0cS by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-08T02:50:04Z
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@cjd correct, they are the exact same concepts just with different base units with metric prefixes.By the way there is a non-standard (so while metric not part of SI metric) for newton-force and thats kilogram force. It would be the force exerted by 1 kg, and therefore more similar to the pound-force.. reason it isnt used is because it produces weird numbers (in much the same way pound-force does).. whereas newton-force sticks to units of 1 and doesnt rely on gravity so much easier to use intuitively in calculations.@mithrandir
(DIR) Post #A4zEL7Bj0NacR59ojg by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-03-08T02:47:49Z
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@mithrandir @freemo Incidentally, I was watching a video of an engine build and the guy (Canadian) commented that he was so glad all of the bolts were metric so he wouldn't need to get a separate set of sockets for them - then without blinking he started reading off the torque specs in foot-pounds, and I'm sure his torque-wrench would support newton-meters.
(DIR) Post #A4zEoA2nSvZRgvpcMS by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-08T02:55:19Z
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@cjd Thats weird, in most of the world other than the USA torque wrenches are indeed in newton meters. You can see one attached.@mithrandir
(DIR) Post #A4zF2dizuVJDnZTUAq by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-03-08T02:57:58Z
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@freemo @mithrandir North American wrenches will almost invariably have both types.Canadians especially use quite a mixture of US and Metric measurements. Liters for fuel, Km for road distance, miles and acres for land (because that's how it was originally surveyed), some weird mix of inches and cm when doing construction...
(DIR) Post #A4zFPee2eiF9JR8B4C by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-08T03:02:08Z
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@cjd makes sense.@mithrandir
(DIR) Post #A4zFnpfzIDTmTYZOiG by mithrandir@pl.wizards.zone
2021-03-08T03:06:35.999355Z
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@cjd @freemo I did construction in the US for a little bit, we used imperial units for most things but random bolts or screws or things of that sort would be metric.
(DIR) Post #A4zGIgRFgjManpO8ps by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-08T03:12:03Z
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@mithrandir If youa re in the USA its pretty trivial to live your whole life using the imperial system, as long as you dont do any hard science.Outside the USA however youll have a hard time using the imperial system for anything, aside from a few remote exceptions.My issue has less to do with how common it is (though that is part of it) and more to do with the fact that metric is just a superior system in terms of simplicity and intuitiveness. Only place I'd say metric and imperial doesnt really have too much of an advantage either way would be temperatures.@cjd
(DIR) Post #A4zGM9WK1GATroPj5U by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-03-08T03:11:40Z
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@mithrandir @freemo I think Americans are slowly moving to metric bolts and nuts because it's just easier to only stock one set. Feet, gallons, quarts and miles, just nobody cares.
(DIR) Post #A4zGM9tMdabF1HC80G by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-08T03:12:44Z
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@cjd Actually we tend to be even moving towards metric volume.. when was the last time you saw a gallon of pepsi :)@mithrandir
(DIR) Post #A4zGhbZ8wSggvhxl8S by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-03-08T03:16:38Z
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@freemo @mithrandir One of the places where the American system is way better is in cooking. I'm not sure why this happened but for some reason French recipes specify everything by weight rather than volume. It's not really Metric's fault here but having a measuring cup with "grams flour", "grams rice" and "grams water" on it is utter nonsense, so tea-spoons, table-spoons and cups will probably not go away any time soon...
(DIR) Post #A4zHHIfifNsEkx3l7w by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-08T03:23:02Z
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@cjd There is actually very good reason for that.. volume lacks consistency if we talk about powders and solids.. 1 cup of flour can range in actual mass considerably if you pack the flour tightly into the measuring cup, vs loose. Strictly speaking in american cooking when you measure the volume of flower your suppose to use a sifter which is quite messy as most of it misses the measuring cup and needs to be put back into the bag. If you measure it by just scooping it you get the wrong quantity (but close enough most people dont care)...When you use weight none of that is an issue as the weight represents the same quantity whether its packed or not. For this reason the french tend to use weight because1) with solids/powders it avoids extra steps and mess2) with liquids its directly equivelent to volume and thus interchangable, if you dont care about a few decimal points percision (1 ml of water is 1 gram of water exactly by definition).. oil has a different density so doesnt work there, but is it really anymore difficult to weight it at that point?3) its cleaner, if you use a single measuring cup for everything you have to clean it between uses or else things get into your food from earlier measurements. When its by weight you can weight it directly in the mixing bowl your using so no need t mess up an extra piece of glassware.@mithrandir
(DIR) Post #A4zIbXQRceOMGA83jk by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-03-08T03:37:57Z
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@freemo @mithrandir Well that's definitely a better explanation than I was lead to believe based on the wild measuring cups I've seen. I find it a bit hard to imagine measuring baking soda directly into the mixing bowl but I suppose...
(DIR) Post #A4zJJz9jskb10RVdKK by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-08T03:45:56Z
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@cjd well you might not be able to measure **everything** direct into the mixing bowl. But the point is there is rhyme to the reason.@mithrandir
(DIR) Post #A4zLxE8yIAhegvzQmG by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-03-08T04:15:28Z
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@freemo @mithrandir So this sort of hits the nail on the head. When you decide how you're going to measure, you choose what is and is not important.Measure by weight -> flour densityMeasure by volume -> ease of adding baking soda.I argue that this extends also to measurements themselves, so forcing them on people will always be colonialist.
(DIR) Post #A4zMZp3jUPOKBewXLM by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-08T04:22:24Z
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@cjd if we are talking about volume vs weight measurements then I agree, they have their uses depending on what your doing.Though for baking soda youd still want weight like any other solid powders because it prevents the need for sifting. You just would want to use a separate vessel for measuring.But as a general principle i agree with volume vs weight.But when we are talking about the base units themselves, metric vs imperial... I still haven't heard a single situation where imperial serves an advantage over metric, yet there are several advantages of metric.@mithrandir
(DIR) Post #A4zMsP5gGRRp9IiMJk by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-03-08T04:25:48Z
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@freemo @mithrandir Well since nautical miles are apparently part of the imperial system, I'll point out that if you're working off a chart with latitude and longitude, you're going to much prefer nautical miles which are defined based on latitude/longitude lines rather than KM which are defined by the line between Paris and the north pole.
(DIR) Post #A4zNrVpjoD3Jj5Od0q by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-08T04:36:45Z
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@cjd nautical miles are not SI metric unit, they are internationally used but not metric.That nsaid I would agree that its somewhat common to use nautical miles at sea internationally, which is more to the point than if its metric or not.@mithrandir
(DIR) Post #A4zO1jLWQLauWy8Rw8 by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-03-08T04:38:43Z
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@freemo @mithrandir The point is it's 1 minute of a degree of latitude along any line of longitude, so if you're using charts this is pretty handy.
(DIR) Post #A4zOCdibghjAGK8Qls by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-08T04:40:37Z
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@cjd Actually thats an older definition, but the newer one I think is still relatively close in practice. But yea, at sea it makes some sense where lattitude and longitude is all you have to go on.@mithrandir
(DIR) Post #A4zOi2712hX0tYWOzQ by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-03-08T04:46:21Z
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@freemo @mithrandir Now if you're saying a unit is valid just for having significant international usage then you'd better let in:* 40x8x8.5 feet (standard international shipping container)* Troy ounce (gold)* Bushel (lots of grains)* Bail (cotton)* Barrel (any oil)I actually have a hard time thinking of any commodities which are internationally traded in SI units.
(DIR) Post #A4zPZXzzDfPF8akdge by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-08T04:55:58Z
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@cjd Actually you are mistaken, all the things you listed are in fact only traded by the unit you mentioned in the us, internationally they use metric units and that includes international market trading..Lets start with hay, grains and cotton, those are traded by the metric ton, here we can see the italian hay market, for example, listing all their prices in metric tons: https://www.clal.it/en/index.php?section=conf_foraggigold is actually price per gram or kg and not just in europe and internationally but even in the US (though troy ounce is sometimes used too but only int he US): https://www.kitco.com/gold-price-today-europe/In fact the only commodity that doesnt use a metric measurement that you listed is oil, but that isnt "any oil" but only crude oil. refined oils are in liters.@mithrandir
(DIR) Post #A4zQJBEKCmolqIDXIe by nanook@friendica.eskimo.com
2021-03-08T05:04:12Z
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Some obscure units can be fun, one I like is BDE unit for radiation (Banana Daily Equivalent) or about 10 microsieverts.
(DIR) Post #A4zSTO9lCSMKjl4svg by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-03-08T05:28:31Z
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@freemo @mithrandir That's not a commodity market, this is a commodity market: https://live.euronext.com/en/product/commodities-futures/EMA-DPAR/contract-specificationand it does trade in 50 tonne contracts.And this is a commodity market which trades in 5000 bushel (about 128 tonne) contracts:https://www.cmegroup.com/trading/agricultural/grain-and-oilseed/corn.htmlNow you'll notice the American market has about 20x the volume, which when you include difference in unit size is closer to 40x. America isn't 40x the size of Europe, it's just where the trade happens.
(DIR) Post #A4zTs6mz0a3i4Cm7RQ by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-08T05:44:09Z
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@cjd Yea which is as i said, american markets will use american units. But international markets use metric. The reason the american market has more volume doesnt tell you much because your looking at one among many markets, its not a measure of total market volume across all USA. @mithrandir
(DIR) Post #A4zU34Yde2d2KdIGUS by cjd@mastodon.social
2021-03-08T05:46:10Z
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@freemo @mithrandir Most international commodities trade is just done in American markets.
(DIR) Post #A4zUfCWwS1v23wgI3E by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-08T05:53:00Z
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@cjd How ya figure? Far more international trade takes place in asian than america, by several orders of magnitude.@mithrandir
(DIR) Post #A4zYxmnkja0xaJf5uq by clacke@libranet.de
2021-03-08T05:23:45Z
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@cjd @freemo @wolf480pl There used to be the kilopond, but it has been phased out in favor of the Newton.Anyone who cares knows that the N is ~= 9.8 kilopond. The value of g is in junior highschool physics.
(DIR) Post #A4zYxnDHCgQmrTbThQ by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2021-03-08T06:41:12Z
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@clacke @cjd @freemo And for most purposes that don't require precision, people assume g=10, so 10N is about the weight of 1kg on Earth. And as cjd said elsethread, 1Nm can bevisualized as 1 kg on a 10cm wrench.
(DIR) Post #A51074dmfZd7RGc0x6 by qwazix@cybre.space
2021-03-08T23:18:39Z
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@cjd @freemo but, but, what engineer uses atmospheres fo pressure? Or cm's for that matter?And by what measure are Pascals untintuitive?
(DIR) Post #A510759KmGrp17ND84 by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-08T23:20:04Z
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@qwazix SCUBA engineers use ATM for pressure all the time. Though ATM isnt really used professionally too much outside of SCUBA or deep sea engineering.cm is pretty common though, in fact I cant think of any alternative an engineer is likely to use.@cjd
(DIR) Post #A513GU89ZHRYxkzplw by IAmAWarCrime@poa.st
2021-03-08T23:55:32.913551Z
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@freemo @qwazix @cjdI've seen ATM decently often in steam power. (I say decently because it's been forever and it was pretty 50/50)
(DIR) Post #A513SS3t5Mum1Ohu8e by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-08T23:57:36Z
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@IAmAWarCrime Steam power makes sense because the pressure as relative to ambient is ultimately what matters.ATM is not metric but its also not **really** a unit (well it is but its not really used like one).. and ATM is useful when your working with ratios of ambient pressure where ambient pressure is approximately seal level pressure.@qwazix @cjd
(DIR) Post #A513YvirigxbkbxnBQ by IAmAWarCrime@poa.st
2021-03-08T23:58:52.830591Z
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@freemo @qwazix @cjd>seal pressureThis makes me smile more than reasonable
(DIR) Post #A513fsDDAcjUtFT6BM by freemo@qoto.org
2021-03-08T23:59:58Z
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@IAmAWarCrime LOL this has my seal of approval.@qwazix @cjd