Post A4e2DWcVHqpdE28fnU by feld@bikeshed.party
(DIR) More posts by feld@bikeshed.party
(DIR) Post #A4drkFsxQaB1NtEu9I by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-02-25T19:27:53Z
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RT @danheld@twitter.com1/ Bitcoin’s energy consumption is not “wasteful.”- It is much more efficient than existing financial systems- No one has the moral authority to tell you what is a good or bad use of energy (ex: watching the Kardashians) Let's debunk this FUD👇🐦🔗: https://twitter.com/danheld/status/1351235080103096331
(DIR) Post #A4drsgEHMjOZPBEIr2 by schmittlauch@toot.matereal.eu
2021-02-25T19:29:25Z
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@jcbrand > It is much more efficient than existing financial systemsOrly? Which metric are you using? It obviously cannot be kWh/transaction.
(DIR) Post #A4dslmedBACZG7paBk by feld@bikeshed.party
2021-02-25T19:39:25.212739Z
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@schmittlauch @jcbrand reminder that Mastercard just uses a Postgres database cluster and doesn't have to melt the oceans to process a transaction
(DIR) Post #A4dsoD8bgXJ5yX0djk by feld@bikeshed.party
2021-02-25T19:39:51.533111Z
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@schmittlauch @jcbrand *boil the oceans, melt the ice caps
(DIR) Post #A4duTvNqBY5P1nabBo by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-02-25T19:58:34Z
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@feld @schmittlauch I suggest you read the entire thread.
(DIR) Post #A4dv1cwTFy2Bg8rFh2 by feld@bikeshed.party
2021-02-25T20:04:41.643823Z
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@jcbrand @schmittlauch I did. Thread sucks. Smells exactly like the kind of arguments oil traders make
(DIR) Post #A4dv8XM8QKsCNg9n7I by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-02-25T20:05:55Z
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@feld @schmittlauch Can you give me an example of a similar argument oil traders make?
(DIR) Post #A4dvRCxiTJP6dHddpI by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-02-25T20:09:17Z
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@feld @schmittlauch Mastercard is a payment processor. Bitcoin is a bearer-asset and store of value with a built-in settlement layer.Apples and oranges.
(DIR) Post #A4dvZrT7kl0cZuSICG by feld@bikeshed.party
2021-02-25T20:10:51.479578Z
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@jcbrand @schmittlauch "oil is really not that harmful compared to the inefficiencies of X Y and Z"The argument here is that Bitcoin is the one true solution, but we can make the current system more efficient through lots of different methods, but we can't make Bitcoin more efficient.You will not see high frequency trading happening on the blockchain, unless the trades are not settled for many many days. We can do same day settlement on the current architecture, they just don't as a safety net at the moment
(DIR) Post #A4dvrPYOHNgzDJHrSS by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-02-25T20:14:01Z
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@feld @schmittlauch Yeah, to me that's one of the weaker arguments.It's only one of a bunch though.Bitcoin is already being made more efficient by adding layer 2 solutions on top of the Blockchain.E.g. Lightning collapses many transactions onto a single blockchain one. The value transferred per block is continuously growing.There's no need to do HFT on the blockchain, so that's a red herring
(DIR) Post #A4dwd1rxdlNDer9Ano by alex@gleasonator.com
2021-02-25T20:22:38.447227Z
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@feld @schmittlauch @jcbrand > Mastercard uses PostgresWhat I really want to know is if they store values in decimals or integers.
(DIR) Post #A4dwfeTp3dutzC6hJA by raucao@kosmos.social
2021-02-25T20:16:15Z
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@feld @jcbrand @schmittlauch MasterCard is merely a payment network that records ledger entries. Bitcoin is an entire financial system, from base money all the way to payments (with many payments per on-chain tx). You could compare MasterCard's network with the Lightning Network instead, to be more realistic. But you'd have to compare Bitcoin with gold + *everything* else that is required to have and use fiat currencies.
(DIR) Post #A4dwfewtJZAXRLhucK by raucao@kosmos.social
2021-02-25T20:20:47Z
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@feld @jcbrand @schmittlauch If you're completely honest about wasting energy, you'd also have to add the energy wasted by current over-consumption, which is driven by intentional fiat money inflation, vs. a deflationary money like bitcoin incentivizing savings and thinking much more long-term when it comes to consumption and acquiring goods.
(DIR) Post #A4dwffN7k29WkhyrVQ by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-02-25T20:23:03Z
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@raucao @feld @schmittlauch According to the report linked in the other retweet I made, more energy is wasted simply by letting hydro-dams overflow (instead of generating electricity) than the entire BTC network uses per year.Also, games consoles, if used 4 hours per day (which admittedly I think is too high an estimate) use more power than the entire BTC network.
(DIR) Post #A4dx4J97VurV3lBFom by rune@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2021-02-25T20:27:32Z
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@jcbrand @raucao @feld @schmittlauch All games consoles? Combined?
(DIR) Post #A4dx7sIJI2WkwGBDKC by feld@bikeshed.party
2021-02-25T20:28:13.194326Z
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@rune @jcbrand @raucao @schmittlauch people have a console chewing like 200-300W for many hours a day, it's insanely expensive
(DIR) Post #A4dxD6Jaaa47s3GoIi by schmittlauch@toot.matereal.eu
2021-02-25T20:24:01Z
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@raucao @feld @jcbrand Yes, but still the number of transactions done on this fiat-securing base is much higher and the required power per transaction is much smaller.For years Bitcoiners are saying that the system is gonna scale much better to allow more transactions. But first of all that's not really happening so far, so the inefficiency claim is still true, additionally by building abstractions on top of that basic ledger you're also partially loose the secure-ledger properties.
(DIR) Post #A4dxD6o4lES5ObX9ou by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-02-25T20:29:08Z
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@schmittlauch @raucao @feld Bitcoin scales on layer 2, not on the blockchain (layer 1), so comparing blockchain transactions with Mastercard is misleading.> additionally by building abstractions on top of that basic ledger you're also partially loose the secure-ledger properties.Perhaps, that depends. You can self-host lightning nodes to still maintain a lot of sovereignty.You don't lose the hard-money aspect,. The simple fact that Bitcoin exists makes financial repression more difficult
(DIR) Post #A4dxDJoCQ5H7ikgwJk by schmittlauch@toot.matereal.eu
2021-02-25T20:29:08Z
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@jcbrand @raucao @feld Oh come on, is it derailing'o'clock already?Besides letting dams overflow *or* using the energy for mining, the energy can also be used for something else. As long as non-renewable energy still needs to be used, there is no such thing as excess energy that can be used for mining in good conscience.The incentives of Bitcoin are designed to use up as much energy as economically possible, making it anti-scale efficient and consume more energy with falling prices.
(DIR) Post #A4dxJUpANQcXcf5cUy by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-02-25T20:30:18Z
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@schmittlauch @raucao @feld It cannot be used for something else, that's why they overflow.The dams are often in hard to reach places and transmission lines add costs to the point where it's no longer economical.Bitcoin miners can colocate right next to the dam.
(DIR) Post #A4dxLy5QYFXOxOsGaO by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-02-25T20:30:46Z
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@rune @raucao @feld @schmittlauch Yes, all consoles in the world combined.
(DIR) Post #A4dxMFhH4mufZhiERE by feld@bikeshed.party
2021-02-25T20:30:49.523679Z
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@jcbrand @schmittlauch the US has no free peer to peer payment system except cash and checks, and checks are awful. Everything else goes through at least one middleman -- debit or credit, if not also a trendy tech company as another layer. If Bitcoin is going to be a serious competitor to the USD it needs to solve this, but it can't and won'tMoney should be handled by databases not a blockchain.
(DIR) Post #A4dxSNewNwps0VXjYe by schmittlauch@toot.matereal.eu
2021-02-25T20:30:54Z
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@jcbrand @raucao @feld There are other concepts for getting rid of over-consumption that do not depend on the systematic over-consumption of energy in a bullshit jigsaw transaction network – the trick is to look beyond purely libertarian-economic incentives for bringing about change.
(DIR) Post #A4dxSO4opjXHIleOtU by feld@bikeshed.party
2021-02-25T20:31:54.508533Z
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@schmittlauch @jcbrand @raucao we will always be consuming more, spending more. Every year we will have more transactions. This won't change. It will only explode in growth as more countries come online. And population growth too
(DIR) Post #A4dxVeEjCxUGHzqANs by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-02-25T20:32:30Z
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@schmittlauch @raucao @feld Can you provide examples of other non-purely libertarian economic incentives to reduce over-consumption?
(DIR) Post #A4dxZosLauTgRaMRxQ by rune@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2021-02-25T20:33:14Z
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@jcbrand @raucao @feld @schmittlauch So, if hundreds of millions of people a day stop having fun 4 hours a day we can afford to process 400k payments a day?
(DIR) Post #A4dxdp9GWPMsRsBSl6 by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-02-25T20:33:58Z
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@rune @raucao @feld @schmittlauch See the other messages in this thread. One transaction on the blockchain does not equal one payment.
(DIR) Post #A4dxhRnlGarFCKqxyi by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-02-25T20:34:38Z
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@rune @raucao @feld @schmittlauch Also, we can already afford the bitcoin blockchain, no need for you to give your beloved games.
(DIR) Post #A4dxhmvGjsLChhWl60 by schmittlauch@toot.matereal.eu
2021-02-25T20:34:41Z
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@jcbrand @raucao @feld Then the fact that it is not economical is a political problem, and that can be changed – at least if people seriously want to achieve 100% renewables.Everything else is just greenwashing.You can of course also produce hydrogen or do other energy-intensive processes. But even if they're economical but make a little bit less profit than bitcoin mining, that is an example of BC actually being a competitor that prevents these things from happening.
(DIR) Post #A4dy5ISde9l1B7LTtI by rune@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2021-02-25T20:38:54Z
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@jcbrand @raucao @feld @schmittlauch The actual cost isn't the point.It's value propositions. Bitcoin isn't even widely used yet and we're paying insane amounts of energy for it.And it doesn't even matter how many transactions it is, because the power usage of BTC isn't even determined by transactions.Miners don't give a fuck if anyone wants to do a transaction. They mine to finish a block. It will never become more efficient overall, only "per transaction".
(DIR) Post #A4dy5fOsMJPiK6lIie by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-02-25T20:39:01Z
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@schmittlauch @raucao @feld Politics cannot makes something uneconomical economical.If you divert resources away to your pet project of generating hydrogen up in the Chinese mountains (where the dams are), you are losing out on the more efficient and economic application of those resources if they weren't diverted.
(DIR) Post #A4dyJsiVe1arg7iv8S by rune@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2021-02-25T20:40:02Z
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@jcbrand @raucao @feld @schmittlauch Conversely, the power demand of the network literally grows with popularity, regardless of transaction "efficiency", because you have to keep mining harder to get a piece of the pie.I cannot believe people keep preaching this Bitcoin bullshit when there are actual crypto currencies that use a non-retarded algorithm and give you all the same benefits.
(DIR) Post #A4dyJt963ArR0aA9Zo by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-02-25T20:41:34Z
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@rune @raucao @feld @schmittlauch I've been keeping an eye on Nano, and if it's possible that Nano could be as secure as Bitcoin without the energy cost, then I'm 100% on board.So far, I'm not yet convinced that this is the case, and I haven't seen much analysis of the security tradeoffs of Nano.What other cryptocurrencies would you say are better than Bitcoin?
(DIR) Post #A4dyVCh1iLWWooQeHo by schmittlauch@toot.matereal.eu
2021-02-25T20:43:36Z
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@jcbrand @raucao @feld But you can politically influence on what resources are even spent for by valuing community building, mutual help and higlighting certain aspects of societal life. You can help on resettling where resources are.Solidarity, community building and communitarist ideas are an important part of degrowth concepts.
(DIR) Post #A4dynYjAWrPuN0BQcS by rune@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2021-02-25T20:43:14Z
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@raucao @jcbrand @feld @schmittlauch And how does the rich not get richer and control the network when you need to spend huge amounts of money to participate in wasting electricity mining bitcoin?No one is buying huge mining rigs on minimum wage. Bitcoin won't fix your societal issues.
(DIR) Post #A4dynZ6Z7s8FXZ875U by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-02-25T20:46:49Z
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@rune @raucao @feld @schmittlauch With Fiat, the rich get richer through money printing and the Cantillon effect.You cannot print Bitcoin and you don't have to be politically connected or a billionaire to get involved in mining.
(DIR) Post #A4dz2ZrsZSZIFcQ1x2 by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-02-25T20:49:39Z
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> You can help on resettling where resources are.If people are not voluntarily resettling, then it means they're happy to be where they are and you either have to force them (through threat of violence) or pay them (bribe them) to move.The first is tyranny and the second is uneconomical and unfair.
(DIR) Post #A4dzE6xxqxHC5XlUCe by rune@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2021-02-25T20:51:41Z
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@jcbrand But your mining reward does scale with your investment. Which, again, means more benefit to richer people.Nothing in bitcoin distributes wealth. It's an imaginary solution to a real problem.
(DIR) Post #A4dzNkQeV7x15OmKIq by IRLStreamer@poa.st
2021-02-25T20:53:30.824675Z
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@jcbrand @raucao @feld @schmittlauch look at how much energy and money the Federal Reserve waste and compare to BTC. Its a fraction. So stfu
(DIR) Post #A4dzjOyOxAL8ugtEDw by raucao@kosmos.social
2021-02-25T20:44:04Z
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@rune @jcbrand @feld @schmittlauch This statement doesn't make sense. It's not only getting harder, it's also getting easier when there's too much hashpower competing. And the block reward halves every 4 years, so the hashrate and thus energy usage will flatten over time.
(DIR) Post #A4dzjPOdNdK8E3AB72 by schmittlauch@toot.matereal.eu
2021-02-25T20:52:39Z
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@raucao @rune @jcbrand @feld Climate crisis is now, so your economic competition to energy usage that actually helps the transition of existing stuff to renewables is hurtful *now* no matter how the hashrate has flattened in 10 years or so.And even still then, each energy price reduction incentivices the usage of more energy then.The total result will be determined by the relation of price and production-efficiency change of course.
(DIR) Post #A4dzjPpvk99rahvyeu by raucao@kosmos.social
2021-02-25T20:54:49Z
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@schmittlauch @rune @jcbrand @feld Again, apparently you have no idea whatsoever about how much energy is already being produced in excess and how much of that is wasted. You should seriously look into that, because it will change the entire situation for you. The US alone are wasting many bitcoin networks a year on unused electricity for example:
(DIR) Post #A4dzjQCcNnJ2j4Y61Q by raucao@kosmos.social
2021-02-25T20:55:09Z
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@schmittlauch @rune @jcbrand @feld And again, check out how much capacity there is, and is being added, in hydro power. It's insane.
(DIR) Post #A4dzonX14cUAWleaY4 by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-02-25T20:58:21Z
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@schmittlauch @raucao @rune @feld Bitcoin can help with transitioning to renewables by providing a floor to energy usage where there otherwise would be none.Think of wind power that sells at negative prices (which is very disruptive), or (potential) hydro power that's wasted because there's no market (already explained earlier).Some places have abundant energy and no easy way to sell it, bitcoin miners collocate there.An estimated 78% of the bitcoin network is using renewable energy,
(DIR) Post #A4e0BomyZ49N5V5z2e by rune@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2021-02-25T20:58:12Z
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@raucao @schmittlauch @jcbrand @feld I don't know why you keep saying that.Miners aren't logically located near renewable sources and they don't give a shit when the energy is being produced.I live near no hydro plants and I've never ever checked whether "now" is a good time to use electricity due to renewable production.All mining does is add a general strain to the network. If the hydro isn't being used to address that general strain it means that it is in excess at the wrong place/time.
(DIR) Post #A4e0BpEyswYGUMCLh2 by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-02-25T21:02:31Z
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@rune @raucao @schmittlauch @feld Miners collocate because that's how you get the cheapest electricity.Many of the chinese miners are collocated near the hydro dams.In USA miners are collocating near oil wells to use up energy from gas, a byproduct that would otherwise simply be burned away without extracting any value from it.
(DIR) Post #A4e0NBOupmnqP2GDuy by feld@bikeshed.party
2021-02-25T21:04:36.172841Z
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@jcbrand @schmittlauch @raucao @rune ok so what happens when there's a massive failure of the power generation where the Bitcoin miners are located? Shut down the entire economy, or just cause a massive spike due to energy price increases?Also this literally makes Bitcoin mining operations critical infrastructure for the country. Terrorists will love it
(DIR) Post #A4e0T2YicZKgiYdg5w by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-02-25T21:05:38Z
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@feld @raucao @rune @schmittlauch Miners are decentralized and spread out all over the globe.Miners being taken out in one location makes no difference to the network as a whole.
(DIR) Post #A4e0XmxM3hjFm6QVJQ by rune@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2021-02-25T21:06:28Z
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@jcbrand @schmittlauch @raucao @feld What the fuck does "providing a floor to energy usage" even mean?Can I fix global warming by buying 10 hair dries, plugging them in, and leaving them on 24/7?Wind energy sells at negative prices because it _sometimes_ provides way too much energy. But sometimes it produces none.If my hair dries dry 24/7, then I will use more fossil fuels.
(DIR) Post #A4e0g9i3LYryewG716 by feld@bikeshed.party
2021-02-25T21:08:02.473804Z
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@jcbrand @raucao @rune @schmittlauch if they needed to be near cheap energy to make this viable they will not be as decentralized as you think Has anyone else in this thread worked in security for critical infrastructure (power generation) besides me?
(DIR) Post #A4e0h3bbWizA19fkjw by drwho@hackers.town
2021-02-25T21:08:05Z
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@jcbrand @feld @raucao @rune @schmittlauch https://news.bitcoin.com/65-of-global-bitcoin-hashrate-concentrated-in-china/
(DIR) Post #A4e0mI1LMK5cAoCsqG by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-02-25T21:09:07Z
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@rune @schmittlauch @raucao @feld If you run a power plant, you want to know that there is a stable demand for the product that you are supplying. If you don't have that stability, then you're less likely to invest more into expanding operations.The floor to energy usage means that there is a stable demand, which makes investing (and therefore increased generation) less risky.
(DIR) Post #A4e0pLZabkme3kgOxc by feld@bikeshed.party
2021-02-25T21:09:41.795108Z
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@jcbrand @rune @schmittlauch @raucao that's not how power plants work or plan their operations / expansion
(DIR) Post #A4e112F6IuB1a9fmBE by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-02-25T21:11:47Z
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@feld @raucao @rune @schmittlauch There is cheap energy all over the world.
(DIR) Post #A4e144lXNZpUHCIKq8 by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-02-25T21:12:20Z
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@feld @raucao @rune @schmittlauch Ah yes, they totally ignore whether there is sufficient demand for their product.
(DIR) Post #A4e1IVsvLcX0RHdN6u by feld@bikeshed.party
2021-02-25T21:14:57.847886Z
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@jcbrand @raucao @rune @schmittlauch my power company in Madison Wisconsin that I pay my bill to may not be providing me with electricity from their local generation plant. My power could be coming from Chicago, Iowa, Indiana, Ohio, Minnesota...Energy markets do not work like you think
(DIR) Post #A4e1fI8gcW7qT3rtiK by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-02-25T21:19:03Z
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@feld @raucao @rune @schmittlauch Are you saying that there aren't cost benefits to being close to the power station and buying in bulk?
(DIR) Post #A4e1g1JYewYmZoIiPI by captain@pirateradio.social
2021-02-25T21:19:13.343048Z
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@feld @jcbrand @raucao @rune @schmittlauch Buddy of mine is a power broker and this is a very common misconception
(DIR) Post #A4e1jEGaxZQrcFReuu by IRLStreamer@poa.st
2021-02-25T21:19:48.448456Z
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@feld @jcbrand @raucao @rune @schmittlauch you're both right and also wrong. Would take too long to explain. My wife works in electricity grid transmission, involving generation, load balancing, trading, etcBig problem when there's a bunch of unused supply in one area and not enough line capacity to get it to the area with huge demand. Solution? Put an aluminium smelter in the area with too much supply. But now the problem is that smelter has too much negotiating power on wholesale electricity prices, holding the generator to ransom constantly. Yes, we need new ways to utilise excess supply in or near the location where that supply is happeningBTC could be one, hydrogen production another for example
(DIR) Post #A4e1oIA3uImP8unsKO by feld@bikeshed.party
2021-02-25T21:20:42.370338Z
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@IRLStreamer @jcbrand @raucao @rune @schmittlauch it doesn't take long to explain, I've also worked in the same industry lol
(DIR) Post #A4e1qWZhHzHaQNrIRc by IRLStreamer@poa.st
2021-02-25T21:21:07.558770Z
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@feld @jcbrand @raucao @rune @schmittlauch if you think that, then you didn't understand it properly
(DIR) Post #A4e1zzKljT7uE4OAAi by feld@bikeshed.party
2021-02-25T21:22:49.650239Z
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@jcbrand @raucao @rune @schmittlauch not guaranteed. You're probably better off being where you have good access to multiple energy markets unless you're lucky enough to be sitting on top of geothermal like Iceland
(DIR) Post #A4e29frSzBn6jEIkRE by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2021-02-25T21:24:33Z
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@feld @raucao @rune @schmittlauch Which is exactly why there are lots of Bitcoin miners in Iceland.They are using energy that would otherwise not be used at all.
(DIR) Post #A4e2DWcVHqpdE28fnU by feld@bikeshed.party
2021-02-25T21:25:16.322762Z
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@captain @jcbrand @raucao @rune @schmittlauch it's like high frequency (at 60hz lol) trading of watts. They will gladly buy coal power from 1000 miles away and sell the solar/wind to some sucker elsewhere and make a profit on both
(DIR) Post #A4e2c1seiFJb80NWMa by feld@bikeshed.party
2021-02-25T21:29:42.031749Z
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@IRLStreamer @jcbrand @raucao @rune @schmittlauch > My wife works in electricity grid transmission, involving generation, load balancing, trading, etcAlso you're probably full of shit because in the US we don't allow the same company to operate in more than one: transmission, generation, or logistics of fuel delivery
(DIR) Post #A4e8IENr7EqDq6ulai by raucao@kosmos.social
2021-02-25T21:53:43Z
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@IRLStreamer @feld @jcbrand @schmittlauch @rune Yes, true! Aluminium smeltering was/is one way of using up cheap energy for creating a commodity that you can easily sell anywhere in the world. It's much slower than turning a bitcoin miner on and off, which can be done within seconds, of course. And let's rather not talk about the environmental impact of aluminium mining, because otherwise some people with unibody MacBooks here might run into cognitive dissonance issues. ;)
(DIR) Post #A4e8Jddoh8IoSo3F32 by IRLStreamer@poa.st
2021-02-25T22:33:37.134571Z
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@feld @jcbrand @raucao @rune @schmittlauch there are other countries in the world than the US