Post A4QqaMxVeGILPvbz6G by ajroach42@retro.social
(DIR) More posts by ajroach42@retro.social
(DIR) Post #A4P5rinsnFqN5QvBFw by ajroach42@retro.social
2021-02-18T16:23:43Z
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@mdm I guess I could have been clearer with my initial request. My personal archive is 10+ TB, and I run my own cloud provider keeping multiple redundant copies. Paying someone else to do that would be cost prohibitive, invasive, and irresponsible.
(DIR) Post #A4P5rjvMcvQEYvQfYW by ajroach42@retro.social
2021-02-18T15:54:58Z
1 likes, 4 repeats
What storage format is reasonably likely to be long lasting? When I was younger, we were told that optical media would last 50 years or more. (That may be true for stamped optical media, but) it was a lie for burned optical media. Your CD-Rs and DVD-Rs are probably already failing! Go archive them.Magnetic tape fails. Spinning disks suffer head crashes. What's the lifespan of a piece of flash media that is written to once? Is paper really the only archival format?
(DIR) Post #A4P5rkI3GZZPhI2mv2 by ajroach42@retro.social
2021-02-18T15:58:53Z
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(I say this as someone who uses floppy disks more than once a month, who has a library of audio cassettes and VHS tapes. Well made magnetic tape fails fairly slowly, if it's stored well, but it still fails. Shellac and Vinyl records have, thus far, proven to be our most stable music archival format. What's the equivalent for data?)
(DIR) Post #A4P5s4WG3SokR8qPq4 by realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live
2021-02-18T16:25:26.389973Z
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@ajroach42 @mdm #lifegoals right here
(DIR) Post #A4P5sBw2U0bDR7xbUm by mdm@mcnamarii.town
2021-02-18T16:18:11Z
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@ajroach42 Sadly, the best answer is probably... "the cloud". Let someone else handle the format, since they'll be doing their own upgrades of equipment/storage medium.
(DIR) Post #A4P6WO1WxPh8VnhB20 by penguin42@mastodon.org.uk
2021-02-18T16:32:42Z
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@ajroach42 I've got some CD-R's from ~25 years ago that are still mostly readable; although I suspect they were better made (Kodak gold film??). There have been attempts to do storage on optical plates etc; not consumer level though. There are CD-R/DVD media that's sold for archival use, I'm not sure what they're specd at.
(DIR) Post #A4P6aRgJIeSF0xhmwS by vandys@mst.vsta.org
2021-02-18T16:33:27Z
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@ajroach42 Store away from open flame...
(DIR) Post #A4P6mJLs5xQKehnrGa by ajroach42@retro.social
2021-02-18T16:35:26Z
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@penguin42 My CD-Rs are mostly readable too, except for the ones that very much aren't. My floppy disks are mostly readable too, but that's hardly a guarantee today. Several people have mentioned M-Disc as an archival option, but I'm skeptical.
(DIR) Post #A4PBxrjb6K1aFQEJ3g by mdm@mcnamarii.town
2021-02-18T16:31:02Z
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@ajroach42 Sure -- we could all do our own versions of the cloud better and cheaper. But then you're functioning as you're own IT department, and what happens when you're gone? I could create documentation out the wazoo for how I store things, but my family (or executors of my literary estate) wouldn't be able to do the first thing to restore it. They're not nerds, like me.
(DIR) Post #A4PBxtK9Bur5B4L0fQ by mdm@mcnamarii.town
2021-02-18T16:31:55Z
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@ajroach42 As I saw someone put it very well about cloud storage:"Don't think of it as offloading these tasks onto someone else. Think of it as pooling your resources with other people who want to archive data, and hiring someone whose sole job is to do it for everyone."
(DIR) Post #A4Q1lm8VHiGJ1hR4AC by kzimmermann@fosstodon.org
2021-02-19T03:14:10Z
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@ajroach42 I've also fiddled with that question myself a couple of times before.I currently have an assortment of backup media that are powered on and used once to back my stuff, then left unused until my next backup. They include flash media (mostly SD cards) and external hard drives, and for some reason I always thought of flash as slightly more resistant, as long as not used very often.I'm curious about this M-DISC standard, though.
(DIR) Post #A4Q4MJn3pvbPjhxUhc by koakuma@uwu.social
2021-02-19T03:42:59Z
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@ajroach42> What storage format is reasonably likely to be long lasting? Text etched onto clay or hard rocks, but probably wouldn't work that well for modern amounts of data :blobcatsweat:
(DIR) Post #A4QB2BfV1WHEQxlmPw by schratze@todon.nl
2021-02-18T16:00:21Z
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@ajroach42 there is this thing called M-disk which is supposed to last up to a thousand years. But since they only came out in 2009, we can't know that. Glass DVDs have also proven really durable in accelerated aging tests
(DIR) Post #A4QB2C65QfXnlQD0rI by ajroach42@retro.social
2021-02-18T16:00:55Z
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@schratze I haven't heard of mdisk. Glass DVDs are decidedly out of reach for consumers.
(DIR) Post #A4QB2CWfpooN5seFIe by schratze@todon.nl
2021-02-18T16:04:23Z
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@ajroach42 I don't think any currently available digital medium can reliably last more than 20 years or so. The only solution is to make backups regularly and actively copy everything over to new media regularly
(DIR) Post #A4QKtbnhUh6iPv9b9M by ajroach42@retro.social
2021-02-18T16:38:26Z
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All the professional archives that I'm aware of use some variant of a personal cloud storage system with redundant backups and constant human maintenance. Most folks in this thread are suggesting something called M-Disc. I guess I can try some M-Discs and see if they're still readable in four decades, but anything significant also needs redundant backups and human maintenance.
(DIR) Post #A4QKtcHpgfD5vNFf7I by ajroach42@retro.social
2021-02-19T00:58:41Z
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I can't find m-disc DVDs for sale. I can find m-disc blu-ray discs for sale. For archival, blu-ray is obviously preferable. For redundancy and cost, as well as maximal reader compatibility, I'd like the DVD option as well. Either way, these discs are exponsive. Multiple dollars each, sometimes as high as $10/disc. (Granted, that's for 100 GB discs, so it's only $1/10 GB.) The 25 GB discs seems to hover in the $3-5/disc ballpark. (Or roughly $1/5 - 8GB)
(DIR) Post #A4QKtchM9lcvCXC2ts by clacke@libranet.de
2021-02-19T06:46:13Z
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@ajroach42 The first CD-ROMs I ever burned were more than 10 USD/disc.It was 1997, and our rag-tag highschool male choir had recorded an album that we printed up for friends, family and teachers.
(DIR) Post #A4QKtejuZErJX2P7A0 by ajroach42@retro.social
2021-02-19T01:00:37Z
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I dunno what to do with this data for many reasons, not the least of which is that I am still pretty skeptical about m-disc as a format, and I'm having a hard time finding any third party testing to support their longevity claims.
(DIR) Post #A4Qfu813odb1MwUYiW by DaveyDelimbo@shitposter.club
2021-02-19T10:43:55.530732Z
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@ajroach42 clay tablets & a stylus... become a sumerian ;)paper decays superfast... moist, or those little paperbugs...ckay tablets are the way to go: dirtcheap, and very durable...So now that you found your medium of choice - what grand message do you want to leave behind for the generations to come?
(DIR) Post #A4QqaHwcI9brri9hVw by ajroach42@retro.social
2021-02-19T12:33:56Z
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Yesterday I asked "Which storage format is reasonably long lived" and I got a lot of "clay tablet" answers. I went to bed. I woke up this morning with even more "Clay Tablet" answers, and a few folks being extra condescending and smug. So let me revisit this thread some more, so that we can figure out if there's something to be gained here.
(DIR) Post #A4QqaINYfzA1DGlDVY by ajroach42@retro.social
2021-02-19T12:36:25Z
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I'm asking about digital storage formats that are reasonably long lived. The word "reasonably" was in the original post, and digital was pretty heavily implied, but not explicitly stated. So let's re-state the question in clearer terms:
(DIR) Post #A4QqaIpuyXqUdE1riC by ajroach42@retro.social
2021-02-19T12:36:32Z
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What digital storage format is most likely to last 50 years in cold storage?
(DIR) Post #A4QqaJGVNh73xgT69Y by onan@dobbs.town
2021-02-19T12:43:32Z
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@ajroach42 custom burned chips are my guess as to longest duration digital storage. For non-digital, here is a claim of 13+ billion years at room temperature...https://www.orc.soton.ac.uk/news/5115
(DIR) Post #A4QqaJtr1OaXvisWUC by ajroach42@retro.social
2021-02-19T12:37:34Z
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Clay tablets aren't a digital storage format. Paper could be made to store digital material, especially using some kind of optical encoding or punch tape, but the information density is pretty low and it would require specialized equipment to read.
(DIR) Post #A4QqaKsTO14sxjEvyK by ajroach42@retro.social
2021-02-19T12:38:08Z
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How long does Flash last in cold storage? Would an SD card in a safe deposit box be readable in 20 years (assuming you could find the right adapter?)
(DIR) Post #A4QqaLxTMufgJWaRP6 by ajroach42@retro.social
2021-02-19T12:39:42Z
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Lots of folks have already brought up the idea that it's not just the life span of the media that I need to worry about, but also the lifespan of the equipment that reads the media. I agree that we'll need both to get by, but I recognize that it's more likely that we'll be able to re-create the interface than it is that the data will be recoverable.
(DIR) Post #A4QqaMxVeGILPvbz6G by ajroach42@retro.social
2021-02-19T12:41:09Z
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I should also clarify that I'm not really asking about "archival" here, in the traditional sense. All archives require tending. That's the nature of the animal. Constant work from lots of people, running backups, converting formats, moving data around. The Internet Archive commits to shifting to modern formats as required. The LoC also does a decent job of this.
(DIR) Post #A4QrNzH1z1cEREP0aG by ajroach42@retro.social
2021-02-19T12:52:31Z
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@onan Neat, and promising for the future. For small amounts of data, PROM seems like the way to go. They just aren't available in high capacity.
(DIR) Post #A4QrfeW7tVJvH8t1dY by ajroach42@retro.social
2021-02-19T12:43:24Z
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@DaveyDelimbo I ... I don't know what to say to this. You're the 18th person to suggest clay tablets. I am personally in possession of dozens of books that are more than 200 years old. Paper, when made and stored correctly lasts a pretty long while and takes up 1/100th of the space of a clay tablet. Neither is comparable to optical or flash media, as I discussed in the original post.
(DIR) Post #A4QrrJgPBI8W8OFwXI by onan@dobbs.town
2021-02-19T12:57:50Z
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@ajroach42 a sort of non-answer: storing information in radio waves is cheap and easy. There are radio waves as old as the universe. But... traveling faster than light away from earth to get ahead of radio waves to retrieve old signals, there’s a problem.
(DIR) Post #A4Qrun5gIh6WD2jfHc by ajroach42@retro.social
2021-02-19T12:58:27Z
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@onan Not to mention, they get fainter and harder to distinguish from background noise the further away you get.
(DIR) Post #A4QsdbSmNUDfB8uKy8 by DaveyDelimbo@shitposter.club
2021-02-19T13:06:36.347674Z
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@ajroach42 yes, I understand, just put them in plastic sealed containers, and you'll be fine - tupperware boxes...but when fantasizing about other options... laser etchings into stainless steel sheets of some sort... So a laserprinter, with a real laser...could even be done into some kind of hardy plastic... If it has to be extremely durable, weatherproof etc... it has to be synthetic...But ofcourse like someone mentioned "that would be ecologically very unethical" 🤣Eventually the world would be filled with undecaying, unbreakable shitposts laying arround everywhere 😋I think valuable thinks already get kept in safes etc... The decay of the not-so important, is not really that bad...But if you deem it very important, put it in a sealbag, a tupperware box, and dig it in somewhere haha... or buy a safe xD
(DIR) Post #A4Qtp8yeDJaaGBsf5c by penguin42@mastodon.org.uk
2021-02-19T13:19:49Z
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@ajroach42 I think you need to find a : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_1360
(DIR) Post #A4QvZiqxGBTKno3Zjc by ajroach42@retro.social
2021-02-19T12:57:26Z
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@DaveyDelimbo The bit that gets me, though, the bit that really leaves me confused, is what tone you could have meant with "So now that you found your medium of choice - what grand message do you want to leave behind for the generations to come?" I have to assume you meant it dismissively. I can't come up with another way to read it. I'm trying to assume good intentions, but I can't figure out what they would be.
(DIR) Post #A4QvZjL5S9ZiJG9dhY by DaveyDelimbo@shitposter.club
2021-02-19T13:39:30.777407Z
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@ajroach42 it's not a bad intention - it's about the relativity of importance...Like a stampcollector will say: these are really important stamps...If things are really valuable - and precious to society or otherwise for generations to come, there are institutions for that, like museums...And indeed it is good to think about when wanting to make things very durable, why? So it's more a philosophical approach - sure, we can save and keep everything, but why would or should we?Is my life really that important that it should be engraved in stone for all those after me to see and witness?I think our importance & our creations are overrated - the process of creating & becoming / sculpting our ideas and perceptions are much more important...So it's not the objects, it's the practice and process that should be passed on... Maybe a book about that could be kept 🤣...But in no way or form did I mean it negatively towards you... I just think human kind as a species is a bit too fond of itself - and keeps holding on to almost forgotten glory..."yes but these were brilliant men" - yes, we want those back... and just teaching people to recite & parrot them will not cause that to happen...And yes, I do agree - if you want to keep something forever... it comes with a responsibility - because in a world where "everything" can be deemed important - like a man's comicbook collection, everyone will want to eternify their precious belongings... That are so important for the generations to come, they need safekeeping..And then you indeed you just get one big pile of trash, that will never go away - and are these times really so epic in proportians they should be chisled in standing stones? I think not...But I am also sceptical about the greatness of this modern age - I think we could do a lot better...Have things, want things, keep things, glorify things... It's normal that peopke want things, because that's what the industrial age is all about: make things, sell things, make people want more things, so more things get made and profits are bigger...So it's fine to keep and store things, and love them and find them very precious... That's why we have houses with doors & locks...But in the bigger picture - in 80 years your dead in 200 years forgotten... And if you really were significant & important, played an important part in the bigger scheme of things - you will still be mentioned in myths and legends and books as well...So as soon we are dead and long gone - we have nothing to say or to do with what is important and what should be read or saved... We are completely irrelevant to the future generations lol...
(DIR) Post #A4QwFJVrre08NF1eQC by ajroach42@retro.social
2021-02-19T13:09:14Z
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@DaveyDelimbo http://ajroach42.com/we-are-terrible-stewards-of-history/http://ajroach42.com/document-your-art-archive-your-art/http://ajroach42.com/document-your-art-how-to-archive/Just because it's well known or important doesn't mean it's going to be preserved.
(DIR) Post #A4QwfhUhKF9EHN3ojQ by 68km@retro.social
2021-02-19T13:15:58Z
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@ajroach42 I'd read that SD cards lose data if they're not touched for about a year, but based on my experience I'm not sure those people were speaking with authority
(DIR) Post #A4QwfhqK1qRfMRB5RA by th@social.v.st
2021-02-19T13:40:09Z
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@68km @ajroach42 not sure about SD cards, but it is a definite concern with enterprise SSD workloads. JEDEC only requires 13-week retention (52 for client class devices) without power: https://www.jedec.org/sites/default/files/Alvin_Cox%20%5bCompatibility%20Mode%5d_0.pdf
(DIR) Post #A4QwfiCIi81gSbSdhA by penguin42@mastodon.org.uk
2021-02-19T13:51:44Z
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@th @68km @ajroach42 Oh that's weird; I guess it's sane that they worry more about client devices being off for longer and in a drawer; but... the drives don't do scrubs when you power them on do they? If you leave a drive in drawer for 12 weeks and power it up, what happens?
(DIR) Post #A4QwtVUck5i171bqSW by DaveyDelimbo@shitposter.club
2021-02-19T13:54:18.040073Z
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@ajroach42 hello aj,I see you are really passionate aboyt this, I just read your first link after my second reply :)I didn't know what it is you do - but indeed, it seems archiving culture is your passion :) - which is nice and very noble snd a beautiful initiative :)I will check the other links in your post as well :)) - I honestly didnt know "archiving" is you passion - so I hope you don't think I'm a total asshole for talking about the relativity of contemporary ideas 🤣I'm a free mind and an open thinker - so just one line of logic, doesn't mean I can't be open to all the other lines :)From reading what I read, I feel and understand your urgency ❤I'm now gonna read the other links :)
(DIR) Post #A4Qy2dSIbiC6MsRG64 by crash@is.aaronbsmith.com
2021-02-19T12:43:25Z
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@ajroach42 High quality DVDs, where the edges are properly sealed to prevent oxidation, should last far longer than the availability of DVD players.Unfortunately we're already on the tail end of their popularity and in the middle of a cable format change.I think one of the reasons you've been getting snarky answers is because history has shown no digital format has any reasonable longevity. Each depends on too many links in the chain that will be replaced.
(DIR) Post #A4QyiHs7FF1ZaeNKoC by ajroach42@retro.social
2021-02-19T12:46:01Z
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What I'm looking for is something available to a consumer that, if left untouched for a decade or two in a junk drawer or a safe deposit box, would still be readable. A live archive would be preferable, but something long lived in cold storage is better than nothing.
(DIR) Post #A4QyiIP5GfObEtnfCC by ajroach42@retro.social
2021-02-19T12:48:05Z
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I'm down this rabbit hole because I found some floppy disks that had some family history stuff on them, but one of the disks doesn't read anymore. I have an index, I know what should be on the disk, so I can be reasonably certain I have other copies. It's fine. But I wasn't expecting to find some floppy disks in a photo album, you know? Just tucked in the back, with a simple index. It was a nice surprise to find them and, when one of them was dead, a small disappointment.
(DIR) Post #A4QyiIpJh8NaYG4c5I by ajroach42@retro.social
2021-02-19T12:49:06Z
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These disks are less than 30 years old. Other photo albums in this set definitely have CDs in them. Those CDs are also definitely decaying, but I've already captured what was on them to the live archive.
(DIR) Post #A4QyiJFY7bMZrcLYyO by ajroach42@retro.social
2021-02-19T14:10:04Z
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Anyway, it seems like the best solution to my concerns: 1 - if you're going to keep copies in cold storage, use high quality inorganic optical media, like m-discs, and check on them every 5 years or so. 2 - Your best bet is to actually use spinning discs and LOCKS (Lots of Copies, keep em safe). 3 - 5 redundant copies on HDDs in various locations, replace all 3 - 5 of them every 3 - 5 years. Store lossless and format shift as needed.
(DIR) Post #A4QyiKLy1E5hHoMCcC by ajroach42@retro.social
2021-02-19T14:11:22Z
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All 9 - 15 copies will probably be readable for ~15 years based on current HDD lifespans, and you're unlikely to run in to software or hardware incompatibilities on a 5 year timescale. 3 - even more copies, keep them safer. The above is for cold storage, but you probably also want access copies. Run a cloud host of your own, or use a public one. Keep redundant working copies on dozens of machines, if you can.
(DIR) Post #A4R1BsusnCdamvuVkG by Prof_Trixie@dobbs.town
2021-02-19T14:42:25Z
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@ajroach42 We had a major house fire a few years ago and all but 20 or so of my 78s didn't make it and none of my vinyl made it because they were left to sit there for two weeks after being hosed down and suffered mold growth. Shellac can be brittle but incredibly durable at the same time. They also don't skip like vinyl does. Both Victrolas survived, too while my hard drives were destroyed.
(DIR) Post #A4R6JjjxIES2PrMYEK by chjara@letsalllovela.in
2021-02-19T15:39:52.777439Z
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@ajroach42 CD and microfilm
(DIR) Post #A53wJQ72qXPtAJoICm by ada@selfy.army
2021-02-19T13:56:58Z
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@th @68km @ajroach42 am I understanding this right? if you power off the device at 25C, then store it in 55C, the data is supposed to last 400 weeks?!is a take-away of this info that you shouldn't pull a flash drive or sd card right after a heavy write if you want the data to persist longer?
(DIR) Post #A53wJQbszs5QhyEvHE by ada@selfy.army
2021-02-19T13:58:29Z
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@th @68km @ajroach42 erm i think i had my axes mixed up
(DIR) Post #A53wJR2TP1M02Qg9ia by th@social.v.st
2021-02-19T14:00:46Z
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@ada @68km @ajroach42 yeah, it is thje other way around: "Active Temp" is the temp that it was run at for its lifetime, "Power off temp" is the storage. So Running at 55C but storing at 25C gives you at least 400 weeks of error-free powered-off data retention.
(DIR) Post #A53wJRShpUKzLmx6bg by sneak@s.sneak.berlin
2021-03-10T09:21:44Z
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@th @ada @68km @ajroach42 writing at 25C and storing at 55C means my data is gone in a week?!
(DIR) Post #A53wJSY3n4DMigStai by th@social.v.st
2021-02-19T14:01:31Z
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@ada @68km @ajroach42 although it is counter-intuitive to me that writing at a higher temperature gives longer data retention. That seems backwards.
(DIR) Post #A54KtwqD2Pfpznt0Ge by ada@selfy.army
2021-03-10T13:57:14Z
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@sneak @th @68km @ajroach42 always write in the hot aisle and store in the freezer for optimal data persistence? :thaenkin:
(DIR) Post #AFqCQ2ETpMRJzphfOK by dustin@linernotes.club
2021-02-18T16:45:49Z
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@ajroach42 this thread has me planning on sticking my home movies on my Nextcloud instance, aka the "warm storage" solution.
(DIR) Post #AFqCQ2hu3xyXT5TAFk by fifonetworks@mastodon.technology
2021-02-18T18:33:32Z
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@dustin @ajroach42 In the early 90s Scientific American did an article on long-term digital storage. In addition to the files, you also need to think about software that can read the old data, and hardware that can run the old software. Simply copying the data to new storage media doesn't, by itself, guarantee that the data can be used in the future.
(DIR) Post #AFqCQ3yFMgdvO47jMm by fifonetworks@mastodon.technology
2021-02-18T18:35:57Z
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@dustin @ajroach42 Software and hardware that can play MP3s will probably be around for a long time - but, at some point, MP3 will become a legacy format, like cassette tapes are now.