Post A3j2Wcgz5Fify5fql6 by snow@wintermute.fr.to
(DIR) More posts by snow@wintermute.fr.to
(DIR) Post #A3aSFUqjq2X56i5iFM by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-25T06:05:24Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
Why can't we just for once have a democrat president (or republican for that matter) that has a clue.Stop worrying about fictional categories of guns (assault weapons) and worry about mental health or anonymous gun licenses.Stop worrying about minimum wage (which just makes the poor poorer) and worry about giving free vocational or university education to those in need.Quit obstructing pipelines (the result of which is an extreme increase in pollution) and focus on taxing gasoline and using that money to build charging infrastructureQuit trying to raise the taxes on the upper-middle class and beyond and focus on cutting military spending in half.Stop doing what makes you look good and focus on what the science says WORKS!
(DIR) Post #A3aSsMsVPTvTg5S9aq by djsumdog@djsumdog.com
2021-01-25T06:12:30.860698Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo We had one that was close. Then a bunch of people put bullets in him and convinced the world it was just one guy who made an impossible shot from a library in Dallas.
(DIR) Post #A3aT45IUbK5ccvC9tQ by nosleep@neckbeard.xyz
2021-01-25T06:14:37.950846Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@djsumdog @freemo that's what happens when you touch the federal reserve
(DIR) Post #A3aTIDasYFIiPcXDAe by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-25T06:17:04Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@nosleep My dad was actually the CIA advisor to Kennedy. They worked closely together until his death.@djsumdog
(DIR) Post #A3aTQ7ZkoJYC41mERk by djsumdog@djsumdog.com
2021-01-25T06:18:37.306796Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo :blobcatshocked: @nosleep
(DIR) Post #A3aawaD2aOjZocZxmi by StephenBeers@qoto.org
2021-01-25T07:42:52Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@freemo this
(DIR) Post #A3aesS9cza2lUXGjeC by lucifargundam@qoto.org
2021-01-25T08:26:58Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo There's so much wrong on the national and state levels it'd take a long time to list...
(DIR) Post #A3afMEhpYcGOTBT7FQ by menjingao@mastodon.online
2021-01-25T08:32:19Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo People don't know the consequences of what they wish for, and politicians are aware of that. The only thing that matters this day and age is what public people say, what they do isn't important. Be against the rich, in favor of minorities, against china, etc, makes you be accepted by a certain group, and being part of a group seems to be what people really want. If you don't say all the mantras you need to be destroyed. While the public fight, politicians and corporations profit
(DIR) Post #A3asWjMDkXHJpjhAIa by Wetrix@social.privacytools.io
2021-01-25T10:59:54Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo that just wouldn't be politics though that'd be common sense and we all know that isn't going to happen. We still have racist rocks to fight and over 100 genders to deal with 😉😜
(DIR) Post #A3bkUObzJ0lERBPE12 by hansw@mastodon.social
2021-01-25T21:04:33Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo <quote>Stop worrying about minimum wage (which just makes the poor poorer)</>Could you explain what you are trying to say? How does a minimum wage make people poorer? They had no minimum wage here in Germany when we moved here. It was bad since they simply payed staff even less then now (it is in place now)
(DIR) Post #A3bkn0gqTCKhkQYOno by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-25T21:07:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@hansw The data shows that as minimum wage increases it results in the poorest and less skilled people being fired and the more well-to-do people with higher education getting more jobs at higher wages. Effectively causing the poor to become poorer and suffer more.See attached image as a reference to this.
(DIR) Post #A3bl7IsiXnJLxXmdxg by hansw@mastodon.social
2021-01-25T21:11:35Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo Well, in my experience this is not fully true. Maybe your data states it is but I have see live situations where the minimum wage brings people a livable life. Sure, not rich but acceptable. Not having it results in local government support at a very low level.
(DIR) Post #A3bld6mX4A5jhQ3Y6S by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-25T21:17:16Z
2 likes, 2 repeats
@hansw Thats the danger of anecdotal evidence, mixed with a natural case of confirmation bias. You often see things that differ from the overall reality.I have no doubt you have seen examples of people who were making less money, minimum wage was raised, and they made more, but youa re far less likely to hear or associate the people who lost their jobs when minimum wage increased with the actual minimum wage having increased, and you likely found another reason to justify that loss of work, or perhaps due to confirmation bias didnt not it as significant at all.We try hard to look at objective data in science and go where the data sends us, but that doesnt mean it has to be blindly followed. If you feel strongly the data is incorrect here, as a scientist or even just a citizen you'd be welcome to explain why and then adjust the model to incorperate and prove out your explanation. But anecdotal evidence is not going to be very convincing up against objective data that doesnt have an opinion of its own.
(DIR) Post #A3blnpLwCswwpVjCTY by hansw@mastodon.social
2021-01-25T21:19:16Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo True, explaining how it has been calculated should be done.Where did you get you data and what countries does it cover?
(DIR) Post #A3bm06brs6rhpI2ASW by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-25T21:21:26Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@hansw I already knew the data/results to be true from years of working on similar data directly and from past studies I've read or worked on (I do peer review occasionally).The image itself was just the first one I could pull up that had a cited source attached to it that matches the data I've seen from countless past analysis. The source is quoted on the image though and you can find both the raw data and the source of the image here if you'd like to follow up on the specific image sourcing:https://www.mercatus.org/publications/government-spending/does-minimum-wage-increase-worker-productivity
(DIR) Post #A3bmHRNVuN85A4aNpg by hansw@mastodon.social
2021-01-25T21:24:38Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo from what I see it indeed is only US based data.What I can explain is that the Germans are considered a growing economy. They simply have a lot of money since they did not have to spend a lot. Welfare or benefits are very low around here.
(DIR) Post #A3bmTamilDiDoJAeAK by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-25T21:26:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@hansw the data tends to be the same in europe, in fact it is the same anyplace they have a free market where hiring policies are not forced to hire underqualified people. I just dont happen to have a nice pretty image that shows that. But I've worked on enough european data to know it holds true just as well for europe.
(DIR) Post #A3bmfs44LAlIsU8kMK by hansw@mastodon.social
2021-01-25T21:29:02Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo <quote>in fact it is the same anyplace they have a free market where hiring policies are not forced to hire underqualified people</>But where does that leave the underqualified people? Sure, someone who works underqualified might be a problem but isn't alway the problem.
(DIR) Post #A3bmq1CJEu5u6Bpi1w by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-25T21:30:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@hansw It leaves them without a job if minimum wage is increased, it leaves them with a job if it isnt.Are you suggesting germany forces companies to hire underqualified individuals? I never had to do a deep analysis on germany specifically though have analyzed this data for EU countries in general as well as other countries around the world.
(DIR) Post #A3bn79FCZjQhyhM0yu by hansw@mastodon.social
2021-01-25T21:33:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo But.... what if the lower income does not provide a level in which people can rent/buy a house or feed their children?Germany hardly hires underqualified people afaik. They do know a lot of people without a roof over their head.
(DIR) Post #A3bnbz9e8d3xf9SZm4 by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-25T21:39:28Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@hansw Oh you mean your asking, how do we fix the problem if minimum wage isnt the solution... Well in my mind thats simple, there is the short term part which just keeps them alive and cared for till we fix the mess we created, and there is the long term part where we make sure they dont need assistance in the future (at least not very often)Short term the solution is welfare. If someone makes less than a living wage, the government should help them with their basic needs (food, shelter, whatever the bare minimum is to stay alive and relatively safe).Long term is the real meat and potatoes of any solution though. That mostly comes from making underskilled workers, skilled workers. That means providing education, vocational training, in some cases psychiatry help as well.The key is to make sure people to leech off the short term solutions and dont take or engage with the long term solutions. for that I tend to say welfare should be incentive based. That is, if you arent taking the free education and training from the long-term side, then the help you get short term will be so minimal as to be unpleasant (just enough food not to have malnutrition, and yoru shelter would be a cot with a bunch of other people). However for those who do take the long term help and apply themselves, such as seeking education, those people will get much better short term help, more money for more enriching foods, and enough shelter to live alone in a small apartment or with a single roomate in a nice area.
(DIR) Post #A3bo9zMzqOHKAzv0FM by hansw@mastodon.social
2021-01-25T21:45:34Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo At least we now have some insight in how that might work in your opinion.Countries like Germany and the Netherlands are more or less doing what you state. If people get educated they will be able to have a job. Point is that the educational level is often so low it will still not bring them what they need. That still leaves a number of people somewhere in the middle. Those who are simply not clever enough. What do we do with such people?
(DIR) Post #A3boYn9MPlDvW5MpWK by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-25T21:50:11Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
@hansw I find that there are very very few people (pretty much just people with mental conditions who cant function in any capacity like even feeding themselves) who are incapable of training for marketable skills.Intellectual persuits are just one time of highly-skilled labour. There are physical skills as well. Take for example a hibachi chef (one of the best paid chefs).. they have little to no need to have any intellectual skills, but they do train physically to be able to do all sorts of stunts and feats with food as they cook, they are a mix between a juggler and a skilled chef. Thats just one exampleYou also have artisans who do intricate wood inlays, again not an intellectual skill but highly-skilled and well paid as wellThere is an endless list of high-skilled labour that doesnt require cleverness.
(DIR) Post #A3cWWYTqNffVQJgxc0 by hansw@mastodon.social
2021-01-26T06:02:42Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo my point in this is that the lower paying jobs are the ones where physical skills are taking those jobs but are not able to provide a living for their family.
(DIR) Post #A3cWsw03cGZEjsQlt2 by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T06:06:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@hansw right, but the cause of that is a too many people are underskilled and thus so many people compete for those jobs that the pay goes to shit due to supply-demand. The solution still remains that people need more skills so there are fewer unskilled workers and as the unskilled worker pool shrinks the supply demand curve demands they be paid more, a living wage.So the solution is the same if you have too many low-skill workers the solution is to have less
(DIR) Post #A3cfjbV5MYh28rZNUe by Pat@qoto.org
2021-01-26T07:45:58Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @hansw I actually don't think either of these solutions will work.Minimum wage is a 90-year-old, depression-era solution looking for a 21st-century problem. It won't help the truck drivers, bus drivers, Uber drivers, UPS drivers, etc. who will soon be out of a job due to self-driving tech. It won't help construction workers, cooks, soldiers, barbers etc. whose jobs will be lost to robotics. It hasn't helped the retail clerks, educators, factory workers, journalist etc. who have already lost their jobs due to current technological disruptions.The "let's retrain everybody" idea won't work either because there simply won't be enough jobs for everyone. Even many creative and highly skilled tasks will be automated by AI, such as medial diagnostics, music composition, art, acting, etc.Also, I think the idea of punishing people with substandard assistance is inappropriate and assumes that people are only motivated to work because of the pay they get. If you had enough money to meet your basic needs without working would you just sit at home eating bon-bons and watching TV all day? Of course not. People are generally miserable when they are out of work not because they're not getting paid, but because they miss working -- being productive, solving problems, collaborating, etc.The technological disruptions that our future will soon bring us are going to require radically different thinking and solutions, even about our most fundamental notions about work, play, economics and just generally how we live our lives.
(DIR) Post #A3cgg93ckxbp0sdhey by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T07:56:28Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@Pat I dont agree with the whole "technology is automating things and therefore the world is facing a crisis and we need a solution".. to me this is bore more out the tendency for humans to see the time they live in as special and extraordinary and that the technology of their time is like nothing before it that will change things in ways too scary too imagine... something that every generation has thought for thousands of years.The truth is "automation" has always been around and has always been quite significant replacing jobs in huge swatchs generation after generation and what we are seeing now is literally no different or exceptional, it just feels that way because what is new is scary and strange. and its hard to see it as equivocal to the technologies of the past.As an example lets go back to one of the earlier examples of automation, though we never think of it as such, plumbing.. before plumbing thousands/hundreds of years ago there were huge armies of people whose whole job it was to either dig hole after hole for latrines or to shovel human shit into a cart and haul it away in the case of open-air toilets. This was very common around castles where open air toilets were the norm. Then one day plumbing cam around (different times in different places) and now all these people out of jobs.We can say the same for farms as new hoes and plows and gas motors were created, the loom which replaced hand sowing, they even had complete automated looms. Hell the entire industrial revolution was little more than massive automation .In all of the countless cases throughout history of automation, all of which were as significant as the ones we see in the present, it didnt cause an unemployment crisis in fact it caused a boom in economies where new more skilled people were the norm and every still had a job (though not always the same jobs) generation after generation... this is no different@hansw
(DIR) Post #A3cglaGj0rKOr6MQMq by bloodmasked@traboone.com
2021-01-26T07:48:51.057128Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @hansw that data only shows that employment has risen and nothing that has anything to do with minimum wage
(DIR) Post #A3cglak9FSrcKM7vEG by bloodmasked@traboone.com
2021-01-26T07:52:08.073788Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @hansw stop posting graphs until you know what correlation and causation
(DIR) Post #A3cglb6pt70nSik2am by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T07:57:30Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@bloodmasked I'm iterally a professional data scientist who gets paid by some of the top projects to work on their stuff... so yea, I think i know what the difference is thank you.@hansw
(DIR) Post #A3cgrc2TLQ9S5CZK4m by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T07:58:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@bloodmasked It shows nothing of the sort, it isnt even a time-series graph so it cant by its very nature show anything to do with how employment has changed over time. Sounds like you need to take your own advice about understanding something before you post.@hansw
(DIR) Post #A3cguB9jkbRBZmBryS by bloodmasked@traboone.com
2021-01-26T07:58:00.483939Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @Pat @hansw what the fuck are you saying
(DIR) Post #A3cguBZGDhr0qw8Fl2 by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T07:59:01Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@bloodmasked What part are you struggling to comprehend?@hansw @Pat
(DIR) Post #A3ch91N0PuhPZLTSNs by bloodmasked@traboone.com
2021-01-26T08:00:46.539770Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @hansw anyone who starts a sentence with "The data shows" is a fucking retard
(DIR) Post #A3ch91pih9fT0OuO8m by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T08:01:44Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@bloodmasked What a masterful and insightful argument you make... well guess im defeated then, you win. Darn, just too clever for me I guess.@hansw
(DIR) Post #A3chQJscqmxJtqVqV6 by bloodmasked@traboone.com
2021-01-26T08:02:54.747478Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @hansw @Pat the industrial revolution is not analogous to a higher minimum wage you stupid fucking retard
(DIR) Post #A3chQKIVIZejC6cVpw by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T08:04:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@bloodmasked Oh wow another brilliant comeback. MIT is missing one of their geniuses I see.@hansw @Pat
(DIR) Post #A3chgaMxJO9XfoSIim by bloodmasked@traboone.com
2021-01-26T08:04:39.304502Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @hansw says the fucking retard who spent 3+ years in university only to not know that a correlation cannot possibly reveal causation, might as well flush ur diploma down the toilet
(DIR) Post #A3chgam7noHmvsEOx6 by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T08:07:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@bloodmasked I mean, I literally spent several messages in thread explaining how the chart showed correlation and not causation and that is why certain conclusions could not be drawn from the chart alone... I know your way smarter than me and all, but even super smart people like you should try reading a conversation before they disagree with it... might make you look like an idiot. Luckily that didnt happen because of all your witty and insightful input just makes you look super smart, but one day that luck might run out, so might want to try reading things before you disagree with them.@hansw
(DIR) Post #A3ciNP8CyAuXGuyVqC by bloodmasked@traboone.com
2021-01-26T08:11:49.277752Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @hansw did your professors not teach you that writing a conclusion which contradicts everything else you had written above it is a bad idea? fucking retard
(DIR) Post #A3ciNPcLA90umN4Zo8 by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T08:15:34Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@bloodmasked No they didnt, wow thanks for the brilliant advice yet again, your on a roll. If I didnt know how smart you were, and therefore I'm the one who is obviously wrong, I might have thought for a second there you were too clueless to understand what contradictions evn existed, especially when you didnt even read the stuff you decided to throw a tantrum over... but luckily we know your way too smart to even need to bother reading anything before shitting on it, so your good.@hansw
(DIR) Post #A3cihZkND8ARzGRds8 by bloodmasked@traboone.com
2021-01-26T08:17:13.572959Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @hansw hey retard can u type 50 paragraphs amounting to nothing thanks
(DIR) Post #A3ciha7PpSbD8jE2mu by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T08:19:11Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@bloodmasked Sure can, easy to do when someone is too stupid to even read something before having a tantrum about it. Pretty much anything I could write fits the description at that point@hansw
(DIR) Post #A3cjc37TBvsLIjB1Qu by bloodmasked@traboone.com
2021-01-26T08:22:05.484963Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @hansw gay retard say what?
(DIR) Post #A3cjc3WdgM0aYmx7fE by bloodmasked@traboone.com
2021-01-26T08:25:02.947346Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@freemo @hansw gay retard says:
(DIR) Post #A3cjc3pQYV2NV3k7wu by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T08:29:22Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@bloodmasked Good job, you read the first few sentances... now show me the part where I explained the causation can be equally said to go in the other direction due toa. correlation chart, that is, having a population with a large unemployed low education population can also cause minimum wage to increase and that a causative chart **alone** can not show which direction the causation occurs.Luckily we **do** have specific charts and tests that check for and determine the causative direction, so we can easily resolve that problem. It simply isnt addressed in that particular image.But clearly you already know all that being so super smart and all.@hansw
(DIR) Post #A3cjhcQtKDP6Gruu6S by bloodmasked@traboone.com
2021-01-26T08:29:40.124782Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @hansw BIG RED ARROW
(DIR) Post #A3cjhcufXVDtlDqgW8 by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T08:30:25Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@bloodmasked Oh good you know your colors AND a few basic words! I'm so proud of how fast your progressing.@hansw
(DIR) Post #A3cjnjMOTw09UfjADA by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T08:31:25Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@bloodmasked Try and be a big girl now and read the whole thing so you can grow up and show everyone how big and smart youll become.@hansw
(DIR) Post #A3ck7RywnqvpO7ACxc by Pat@qoto.org
2021-01-26T08:35:07Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @hansw Yes, what we are facing is somewhat analogous to the industrial revolution. But that WAS a revolution. It caused massive disruption and created a paradigm shift in the way people lived their lives. I think most people of that time couldn't image not working on their farm, not growing their own food. Then there were the political implications of having most people working in factories, which lead to the progressive era, labor laws and eventually to the New Deal. These were huge changes, the consequences which we are still dealing with today.The changes that are coming due to our technological revolution will be just as consequential. Because the pace a of change continues to accelerate, it is difficult to have visibility about what is coming. Many of us have jobs that require us to continually relearn new skills, but as the pace of change accelerates, fewer and fewer people will have the natural skills to learn at that pace.It's similar to the industrial revolution, but still much different and difficult to predict.
(DIR) Post #A3ckR9MviSc1S4m6MK by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T08:38:39Z
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@Pat Yes there is no doubt there will be changes, there already have been. But its not the scenario of automation taking over jobs resulting in some future world where need a UBI because no one can work or any other scenario..The industrial resolution shifted jobs from being almost entirely menial labor into being more skilled, needing to know how to operate new tools and new equipment and those who couldn't were left in the dust. This will be much the same, people will need to become educated and learn new skills and reach new heights of personal ability or else be left in the dust.. but the work will still be there, and more than enough of it, same as always.@hansw
(DIR) Post #A3ckpLgdZPeMbZX1KS by bloodmasked@traboone.com
2021-01-26T08:36:55.008457Z
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@freemo @hansw post ur summary and ill tell you how retarded it is
(DIR) Post #A3ckpM3KD3nXjw98gy by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T08:42:59Z
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@bloodmasked I'm not going to put an ounce of effort into writing a summary for a piece of shit know nothing who comes in on blast thinking everyone is wrong and stupid who clearly hasnt even read more than a snippet of the conversation. I am already putting in too much effort considering your low value to the conversation in reply this much.Now if you feel like acting like a human being who has some worth and can contribute in a meaningful way to a conversation then I'd be more happy to have a grown-up conversation with you instead. Until then you can go play in the kiddie pool. I am done. You were amusing for about 3 seconds though. Shame I feel bad for you, people who usually act like this do it to feel important because they really feel inadequate all the time so acting a fool is the only way you seem important enough to get a response.. Must be a horrible way to live.@hansw
(DIR) Post #A3ckwgm1ZHJQ22YFOa by bbb@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-26T08:44:25.815195Z
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@freemo @Pat @hansw The best way forward as far as technology and automation in employment and education, from here on out, is for the federal government to pass legislation A) subsidizing and B) mandating daily sissy hypno sessions + HRT injections for all males under the age of 26. There are already simulated test models showing the upward trajectory of GDP and the dow jones in such a scenario.
(DIR) Post #A3clDJXpBbYWuYpxtw by Pat@qoto.org
2021-01-26T08:47:01Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo @hansw The point is that since the rate of change is accelerating, it will require a much higher level of talent to relearn at the required rate of change, which will mean that many more people will be "left in the dust." So what happens to all those people? At some point the overwhelming majority of people will be "left in the dust."
(DIR) Post #A3clQQntVYTrBpbmK0 by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T08:49:39Z
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@Pat the rate of change isnt accelerating, it just appears that way because your in it. Every generation always makes tat claim. in fact by many measures its slowing down.@hansw
(DIR) Post #A3cljMvy7UVegqPnto by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T08:53:06Z
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@Pat My guess is that you are labouring under the myth of exponential technological growth tat you often hear spread around (started with the exponential growth in processor power myth). In reality new invitation and sectors as a whole grow logarithmically, appearing exponential only in their early stages but ultimately becoming asymptotic. This has been proven true for almost any new technological domain you could think of from solar panels, to rockets, to processors.@hansw
(DIR) Post #A3clls2jQb19khltSa by bloodmasked@traboone.com
2021-01-26T08:52:18.838703Z
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@freemo @hansw because ur wrong
(DIR) Post #A3cllsQ81bjUvGiZvc by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T08:53:35Z
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@bloodmasked cool story@hansw
(DIR) Post #A3cnfaLAX66r1GWfPk by Pat@qoto.org
2021-01-26T09:14:55Z
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@freemo @hansw Yes, the growth can't continue to accelerate indefinitely, obviously. I think the gating factor in this case may be the limits of the human capacity to adapt. But when we hit that wall it's going be very messy.In the 1930's they dealt with the problems by shifting a huge amount of power to the federal government which helped (somewhat) in the short term but caused major political problems and loss of freedom in the long and we're still dealing those issues today. I'd rather not make the same kind of mistakes that they made back then.
(DIR) Post #A3ctokWGekhyv7TDeq by wishgranter14@shitposter.club
2021-01-26T10:23:51.302095Z
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@freemoI think change happens in spurts. Not too much longer than a decade ago most ppl would have thought homo acceptance would be impossible, but now they have drag queen children, and sec of health that thinks he's female.@Pat @hansw
(DIR) Post #A3dm6rlVqlCG88glbU by hansw@mastodon.social
2021-01-26T14:27:26Z
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@bloodmasked Are you always this idiot in reponding? Since that is retarded. Please join a discussion in a normal attitude.@freemo
(DIR) Post #A3dm6sG01PaDegx77g by bloodmasked@traboone.com
2021-01-26T20:29:40.927945Z
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@hansw @freemo yes
(DIR) Post #A3dm6so1ysnzMEsIAS by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T20:32:06Z
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@bloodmasked It shows
(DIR) Post #A3dpkUmb195AITmex6 by hansw@mastodon.social
2021-01-26T21:12:54Z
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@freemo from an economic point I fully understand you. Problem remains that a lot of people are simply not able to educate themselves. They stay behind and will, together with some 3 percent of the countries population not benefit from it.
(DIR) Post #A3dq40CcQLGTFIG0rg by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T21:16:26Z
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@hansw Yes but that isnt due to inability in most cases but unwillingness... Almost everyone, short of having some disease or medical condition is capable of learning some profitable skill, whether it is intellectual or a non-intellectual skill.The people who remain are either disabled and cant work, have a mental illness and dont work because it overwhelms them, or are just lazy.The first two people arent helped my minimum wage anyway, since they cant or wont work due to their illness so its a moot point.. As for the people who are explicitly lazy, thats on them and not an excuse to give them a free ride. The oppertunity is there for them when their situation causes them to be ready for it. In the meantime welfare will at least keep them in poor conditions but alive.
(DIR) Post #A3dqQ2cO7hWz6mosgC by hansw@mastodon.social
2021-01-26T21:20:18Z
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@freemo assumptions imho. You are not able to pinpoint it for every-one imho. We seem to hit the point I wanted to ask but never did:<quote>Almost everyone, short of having some disease or medical condition is capable of learning some profitable skill, whether it is intellectual or a non-intellectual skill.</>The lazy indeed should look after themselves but I think you underestimated the group of people who are disabled or having a health problems that does not allow them to work.
(DIR) Post #A3dqsEZJHlhSHQp6Z6 by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T21:25:33Z
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@hansw > but I think you underestimated the group of people who are disabled or having a health problems that does not allow them to work.In what way either they have a health problem and cant work, or they have a health problem but can work anyway, and i therefore can learn a skill. is there some situation you can envision where someone can have a health issue, be perfectly capable of working and doing the job, but otherwise be incapable of learning a skill? I cant think of one.
(DIR) Post #A3dr8PJj5eCQFYFK1g by hansw@mastodon.social
2021-01-26T21:28:28Z
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@freemo Almost, a slight difference thoughI know this friend who has lung cancer type 4. He was a software engineer who loved the job. Chemo fried his brain and if he has a good day he only sits on the couch, walks the dog, looks at some code and is lost in 15 minutes. Keep in mind, this was his daytime job. Shall I explain his bad day?
(DIR) Post #A3drI5q4Mga2jbzcjw by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T21:30:09Z
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@hansw No, and you are saying this man is capable of working? by the way you describe his condition he falls into the category of people I mentioned who have a medical condition and are unable to work, is that not correct? Sounds like this example agrees with what I said doesnt disagree with it.
(DIR) Post #A3drXoRennNfQF4OYK by hansw@mastodon.social
2021-01-26T21:33:01Z
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@freemo True, this person is not able to work.Now keep in mind that 1 in 3 people currently are expected to get this sick in all the variants of cancer. 1 in 3!!!Ihmo your vision on this is a pure economic one.
(DIR) Post #A3drmbqruFPehyuyf2 by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T21:35:41Z
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@hansw No its not, you are missing the point... if the person cant get a job in his current state, what in the world makes you think a higher minimum wage will get him a job? Your arguing about something that isnt related to my position or the topic. What you are trying to do is argue that people like this should be looked after, but I never suggested they shouldnt. I merely pointed out minimum wage has no effect on accomplishing that for them.
(DIR) Post #A3ds6TTOlcfiVxPd7g by hansw@mastodon.social
2021-01-26T21:39:17Z
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@freemo It is a very simple mechanism. If a person is able to spend time at home, educating his/her kids, get involved in local activities, etc.. then this pays of by having more happy and informed people. If a person needs to take on 2 jobs at least to even make sure their family is able to house the family, pay for its dinners and be able to buy them something funny then we wind up in a stress level that turns red soon. Again, imho your view is purely economic.
(DIR) Post #A3dsImukJMuOHj4kBE by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T21:41:27Z
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@hansw Again, not purely economical, but it does use the economics as a atter of fact.We already established that minimum wage increase causes the poorest and least skilled member of a society to loose their job and be unemployed... therefore how does loosing your job and have no sense of income equate to the scenario you describe where a person is able to spend time at home educating their kids and being stress free? You seem to be ignoring the economics, and acting like it doesnt exist and then fabricating a "human" element that is dependent on those very economics yet contrary to the facts of it.
(DIR) Post #A3dseCOkl2OLP4Jwga by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T21:45:15Z
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@hansw See the problem is your argument is just as economical as mine, except yours is based on economics that is contrary to the reality, and mine is based on the observed data...You are arguing that minimum wage improves the economic situation and thus allows people to stay at home and care for their kids and community, thats an economic argument. But it ignores the fact that the economics directly disagree with this and that instead those people who are the poorest and the least capable of doing this are now out of a job, so it makes the reality you envision less possible, not more possible.Mine to is based on economics and a similar vision, but based on the actual observed data. I recognize people loose their jobs that need it most when minimum wage increases, and since i want people to be happy and to be able to be at home more and take care of the family and community I do not want to see minimum wage increases that are shown to jeopardize that possibility.
(DIR) Post #A3dsv6tUTXgLFslI5w by hansw@mastodon.social
2021-01-26T21:48:28Z
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@freemo I am not ignoring these facts. I even agree that taking 2 jobs might even save their ass. Fact is that this would only put a pressure on people that has downsides. B.t.w., I never told the person to stop working, I only wish he/her can do it with one job so they are able to care for their families in a mental way too.Again, not talking about me or a lot of other people who where able to provide this to their family.
(DIR) Post #A3dtIpITYJ7Fd3l07s by hansw@mastodon.social
2021-01-26T21:52:45Z
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@freemo stating this is not a reality sounds harsch. I already explained what can also be done. Real life example from Germany. This friend of my Son is working as a hairdresser. She works her ass of and got some 450 euro per month. She needed to pay insurance herself.Now they introduced a minimum wage she is able to contribute to they way they live (renting a house, giving her kids healthy food).... This is a perfect example.
(DIR) Post #A3dtN8v0XfaJdsq2kq by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T21:53:25Z
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@hansw But I never suggested they should take 2 jobs.I suggested the government should give them free education and help them out with welfare so they dont have to take 2 jobs and so it doesnt add pressure on them or society.I also suggested that raising the minimum wage wouldnt do that, it would just cause them to loose both jobs (presuming they are under skilled) and be replaced with a worker of higher skill (if people were just going from 2 jobs to 1 then the chart i showed would not indicate the unemployment increase that it does).
(DIR) Post #A3dtUnsGfSd6gwD3vk by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T21:54:46Z
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@hansw anecdotal example.. what about the 10 people with no skills sweeping up hair that had to loose their jobs so that one hair dresser (who presumably actually has a profitable skill) can get a raise? How does that anecdote of a single hair dresser help the multiple people who are now homeless to get her that raise?
(DIR) Post #A3dtXv7WBSVQ27pSzo by hansw@mastodon.social
2021-01-26T21:54:54Z
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@freemo True, You did not state they needed 2 jobs. Bare reality shows that they do need them to simply be able to have a roof over their head. This will not change if minimum wages are declined.
(DIR) Post #A3dtbzWNlM82qDOsjo by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T21:56:07Z
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@hansw no, but minimum wage increase sures they loose BOTH jobs (thus the increase in umemployment)... thats the problem.. with low minimum wage there are enough jobs for people with no or little skills to get one, two, three jobs if they want.. raise minimum wage and now they have 0. Not helping anyone by doing that.
(DIR) Post #A3dtiHO2FjBPzGUisC by hansw@mastodon.social
2021-01-26T21:57:19Z
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@freemo What you are referring to is giving jobs in a communist way. tell people to this and that and let them do idiot things. Consider this lady friend who uses the extra time she has to learn a language, to learn new techniques, etc... That will improve her life. I know she would not be able to before minimum wage was mandetory.
(DIR) Post #A3dtoxCJiHnjOoCD5M by hansw@mastodon.social
2021-01-26T21:58:32Z
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@freemo I think we disagree. No problem. I just look at other sides that might be important too.
(DIR) Post #A3duAO0ZEB4SdDv5ma by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T22:02:07Z
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@hansw Not in the least. i never said people who are underskilled should take the underpaid jobs... Obviously what they **should** do is take the offer of free education i mentioned, become highly skilled (and get enough welfare to live well why they do it) and then take a high paid job.. no one is requried in the system i described to take a low paid job, thats not accurate at all.what it does mean, however, is that if someone **wants** to be lazy, do a minimal effort job that takes no skill, is perfectly capable of learning a skill and can learn one for free but simply refuses to do it out of laziness, then that person at least has an option to get a low paid job if thats what they WANT, but there are other options for them.Moreover, as we covered, when most of the people gain skills and move to high-skilled work that means there is a much smaller pool of people willing to do menial labor, that means supply demand curve **raises** their wage (as there is now higher competition to hire them) and in turn they dont make a menial wage.Effectively my solution allows for the lowest wage to increase naturally and fairly without the consequence of everyone loosing their job.. the minimum wage solution just artificially attempts to inflate the minimum wage without effecting the supply-demand curve and the consequence of which is all the people who need jobs the most loose them.
(DIR) Post #A3duO7VVNIT3VbwJea by FailForward@qoto.org
2021-01-26T22:04:56Z
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@freemo @hansw AFAIK, the committee is still out on whether minimum wage is a bad thing for a given country or not. For some references Wikipedia is rather extensive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage#Debate_over_consequencesThis debate started about US. I have no stake in that, but given the experience of most EU countries with minimum wage, I doubt it would go horribly wrong in the long run for the US either.
(DIR) Post #A3duYZZprmxhSgwvMu by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T22:06:45Z
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@hansw I have no complaints about the conversation or us disagreeing. I look at all the sides too, which is why I am not proposing a solution that lines up with anyside.. if i were right-sided id be against free education, welfare, or any real investment in a solution.. if i were left-sided id be parroting pro-minimum wage or even UBI as a wonderful solution.. instead i find a solution that considers all the sides and input.
(DIR) Post #A3dubkBsrTrBFSG4sy by hansw@mastodon.social
2021-01-26T22:07:16Z
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@freemo True, people who are lazy should make a huge effort to do something for the society. Free learning is nice too. There are however people who are aegor to get a good job but simply are not able to learn (in general). In your example these people have bad luck. This is why a minimum wage is mandetory. They will have a hard time since this is very low. Simply stated, there will be a lot of people having bad luck, the past proved it here in Germany
(DIR) Post #A3duw7ebKsHRoGPLUm by hansw@mastodon.social
2021-01-26T22:11:00Z
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@freemo You know I value these discussions, otherwise I would not participate in them 🙂 My point is just that I have seen enough things going bad when a minimum wage is not mandatory. UBI is a different thing. Let's not introduce this now :-)
(DIR) Post #A3duy211GoKItxnuoy by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T22:11:18Z
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@FailForward There is sadly, always going to be different of opinion on political subjects, 99% of those will be on an extremist side of the political spectrum arguing for an absolutist solution.But the individual facts there is little doubt. and the two key ones here are that 1) while moderate increases in minimum wage does not decrease the net unemployment 2) it does shift the unemployment burden to the least skilled and most poor portion of the population at the benfit of more skilled and least poor people. Some often use trickledown economics in its liberal form to argue for it, that by making those whoa re already well to do richer they can use that money to boost the economy and somehow help the poor or ultimately got screwed in the decision...Frankly I find that bs and the data doesnt bear it out and needs to be pretty manipulated to support that argument. Likewise the right is just as rediculous wanting to abolish all welfare and minimum wage all together and figure somehow it will all fix itself.You will find very few people actually looking for a real solution that isn't at the extreme ends of propaganda on the political spectrum. The lack of suck people is the very reason we dont and arelikely not to see a solution, not in the USA, not in the EU.@hansw
(DIR) Post #A3dvI802jLtfFkvjHs by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T22:14:58Z
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@hansw > You know I value these discussions, otherwise I would not participate in them 🙂 I am glad, and I of course feel the same> My point is just that I have seen enough things going bad when a minimum wage is not mandatory. You would, but you have to be careful of falling victim to logic where you look at components in isolation and then draw conclusions about the whole.The truth is if **all** you did was eliminate minimum wage and nothing else then you are right, things would and do go bad. Notice my solution is very careful not to do that, it doesnt just propose minimum wage be done away with but is careful to point out that it must go hand-in-hand with 1) strong welfare to support those who can afford a reasonable living wage and 2) provide free education and training to people along with the support of #1 to help ensure they get out of a welfare situationWithout points #1 adn #2 then simply eliminating welfare would be a disaster, but with points #1 and #2 then we fix the problems with welfare and replace it with something that works.It is always important to understand the whole and not separate it out into its fundamental parts and fall into a fallacy of composition.
(DIR) Post #A3dvbS1uU1DksT18WO by hansw@mastodon.social
2021-01-26T22:18:31Z
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@freemo Free education would be valued a lot by people I think. I was not aware you thought I was seperating issues into parts. I tried to explain that I see things go bad when a minimum wage is not in place.
(DIR) Post #A3dvjQeHVBRMuWlkum by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T22:19:54Z
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@hansw > I tried to explain that I see things go bad when a minimum wage is not in place.My point is that is separating parts... you saw things go bad when minimum wage was in place.. but was there free education and a welfare system that provided ample financial support in those situations too? No... so you were separating out the minimum wage from the other two components I said were necessary.
(DIR) Post #A3dvsmMy78DYsn87SC by hansw@mastodon.social
2021-01-26T22:21:41Z
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@freemo UhmmMy point is just that I have seen enough things going bad when a minimum wage is **not** mandatory.That is what I wrote. And no, there was no education either.
(DIR) Post #A3dwRKvQ8wVztvisXQ by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T22:27:51Z
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@hansw I know thats what you meant.My point is you only seperated out minimum wage and evaluated it seperate from the whole. Yes eliminating minimum wage while not having the other two components in place I mentioned will have things go bad... the poor wont suffer as much, but others will suffer more (the middle class and marginally skilled suffer more without minimum wage alone).As I said you can only consider minimum wage in relation to the whole, that is, welfare, and job training, talking about things going bad when you dont have one is self-defeating when you also dont have the other two.so yes you saw things go bad without minimum wage, but that wasnt because minimum wage wasnt there, it is because you were missing the 2 other components i said were neccesary for the solution to be fixed, you must eliminate minimum wage AND enact strong welfare and free job training and education...If you dont have all three then you will be in a bad situation, it wont make things better. so saying that you saw bad things happen when there was no minimum wage, no welfare AND no free education... well of course, you would, but to conclude that is due solely to the lack of minimum wage is incorrect.On the flipside if you had seen no minimum wage, but with strong welfare and free education, and things still went badly, then youd be considering the whole, and youd have a good argument that minimum wage should be part of the solution.
(DIR) Post #A3dwoB9Cf8u0Ej3sbw by hansw@mastodon.social
2021-01-26T22:32:02Z
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@freemo Might be true. Then again, I have seen enough to think that is not true. We can discuss this over and over but the fact remains that educating will cost a lot too (people on welfare are not able to hire education or are bound to rules (netherlands))I was the so called wise nose. The one who was triggered and I have done it myself. So yes, I know it works. But I also see the faults in this plan.
(DIR) Post #A3dxHdA3aSYvW9VLSC by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-26T22:37:18Z
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@hansw It doesnt matter how many times you see it, eliminating minimum wage can fail 1000 times over but as long as every time it is without the other 2 components then you can not say it is due to minimum wageIts a bit like trying to cure an alcoholic.. if all you ever see is the fact that when they stop drinking they get sick (and perhaps die) you might believe wholeheartedly the solution is to give them more alcohol.. but even if you see 1000 alcoholics die from abruptly stopping drinking that doesnt mean your observation is valid because it ignores the whole picture. there are other elements needed for an alcoholic to succeed and without those, then yes, an alcoholic will die or get sick, but that is not an argument to solve their problem with alcohol.Same here, you are looking at minimum wage, which causes more damage, but by itself acts as a buffer to other problems.. so its making things worse over time but looks beneficial from the perspective of anecdotal evidence removed from consideration of the whole solution. But the second you introduce an actual solution, with free education and strong welfare, and then do away with minimum age safely, then the problems you saw so many times in the past are no longer there and you find actual solutions are the result.
(DIR) Post #A3j2Wcgz5Fify5fql6 by snow@wintermute.fr.to
2021-01-29T09:29:46.425664Z
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@Pat Correct, but @freemo is re............ you know.@hansw