Post A3EADokmWFqF5dafSa by green@kiwifarms.cc
(DIR) More posts by green@kiwifarms.cc
(DIR) Post #A37v4XHC0xAhzmj9k0 by crunklord420@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-11T11:41:08.561310Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
it's cool to see bitcoinhackers.org getting a new wave of users. Hopefully it sustains @verretor
(DIR) Post #A37v8VDTcCMslUsf6O by colonelj@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-11T11:42:16.051501Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@crunklord420 @verretor is it a shady place?
(DIR) Post #A37vDIBdUEMrnnIsy0 by crunklord420@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-11T11:43:07.764675Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@colonelj @verretor buy my bitbeans
(DIR) Post #A37vb77SHpdCQXhu0e by colonelj@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-11T11:47:25.483049Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@crunklord420 @verretor where can i buy it?
(DIR) Post #A37vibFeebtHuL70D2 by crunklord420@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-11T11:48:46.713704Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@colonelj @verretor on the worlds premier cryptocurrency exchange, YoBit!
(DIR) Post #A37vmDKLXujyrl1uca by green@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-11T11:49:27.133285Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@crunklord420 @verretor Is bitcoinhackers it full of libertarians? Do many federations silence them?
(DIR) Post #A37vpz6cMYnVuwPFi4 by crunklord420@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-11T11:50:07.592145Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@green @verretor yeah they're lolbertarians and I don't know
(DIR) Post #A37w7mbxYWFeNYYMCG by colonelj@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-11T11:53:20.035918Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@crunklord420 @verretor I'll consider it... i don't have to file euro taxes do I?
(DIR) Post #A37wP4ilTeetT5yvdQ by crunklord420@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-11T11:56:27.929300Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@colonelj @verretor I AM NOT AN FINANCIAL ADVISOR
(DIR) Post #A37weC5WMwbuf0pph2 by verretor@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-11T11:59:10Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@crunklord420 Every wave of user, more stay. At the end of 2020, I was getting approximately 10% of my Twitter's engagement. At the moment, I can't manage the notifications.I think we're good this time.
(DIR) Post #A37woNifyhrNdB0VpQ by verretor@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-11T12:01:01Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
@crunklord420 @green Doesn't really matter if they silence us. They're the type of people we're running away from.
(DIR) Post #A37wpr5sFdUF1TYp7Y by crunklord420@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-11T12:01:18.416648Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@verretor @green that's the spirit!
(DIR) Post #A37wquB6GlHysVVPn6 by verretor@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-11T12:01:29Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@colonelj @crunklord420 Taxes?
(DIR) Post #A37wsS6pbEuqP4FMSu by crunklord420@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-11T12:01:46.255548Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@verretor @colonelj I heard taxation is theft
(DIR) Post #A37wueMozoW102m3Gq by verretor@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-11T12:02:07Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@crunklord420 @colonelj Precisely!
(DIR) Post #A37xaVTcRMr9aaucds by melmc@melmc.nohost.me
2021-01-11T12:09:44.541295Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@verretor @crunklord420 @colonelj Under the present circumstances, I fear that paying taxes is feeding the monster, Leviathan.
(DIR) Post #A37y1IPp6rl0touXpY by colonelj@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-11T12:14:30.946664Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@verretor @crunklord420 going to jail is also bad
(DIR) Post #A37yQ036X5s7B04276 by crunklord420@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-11T12:18:59.250430Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@colonelj @verretor AM I BEING DETAINED?
(DIR) Post #A37yWaBN6QuYyn4Oe0 by dec05eba@glowers.club
2021-01-11T12:20:14.095895Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@colonelj @crunklord420 @verretor There is a 50% tax on every crypto transaction in some european countries
(DIR) Post #A37yiEte4LKGRBKwtM by crunklord420@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-11T12:22:19.607237Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@dec05eba @colonelj @verretor if you're a pro you just get Estonian e-Citizenship and pay 20% on profit (only when you remove the money from the corporation).
(DIR) Post #A38EUsyXrFrXx8HcTA by amerika@freespeechextremist.com
2021-01-11T15:19:13.221020Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@melmc @verretor @colonelj @crunklord420 In my view: don't fear it, know it.Government is dedicated to helping the weak and thus empowering evil.
(DIR) Post #A38Fw0ifH4c1k7Lxuy by amerika@freespeechextremist.com
2021-01-11T15:35:19.664013Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@verretor @crunklord420 @green I think this is a really good point. I want all the Leftists to be forcibly exiled to Venezuela. They're just broken people. I don't hate them, but they will destroy any society of a first world type, so I need them away from me. Like mental patients, anal rapists, rabid dogs, herpetic piles of feces, infectious diseases, nematodes in stagnant water, and lawyers, they are simply a drain of energy, focus, time, and wealth that no one who is headed upwards should tolerate.They can have Twitter. Just not here.
(DIR) Post #A38Gegt3rCoXGVWNhA by verretor@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-11T15:43:23Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@amerika @crunklord420 @green A lot of people are waking up to this.
(DIR) Post #A38H0sgCh27mD65Xgu by amerika@freespeechextremist.com
2021-01-11T15:47:24.753385Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@verretor @crunklord420 @green I think so. The divide has become permanent. There is nothing left but for us to overthrow our new Communist overlords and restore Western Civilization.Then the boats go to Venezuela. No one gets murdered, no repression is needed. But we stop tolerating degeneracy, even the soft types.
(DIR) Post #A38Ho31t0AXKUzftei by verretor@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-11T15:56:16Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@amerika @crunklord420 @green I mean, Venezuela is their dream.
(DIR) Post #A38IuLdAr48FsjgSbQ by melmc@melmc.nohost.me
2021-01-11T16:08:37.749112Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@amerika @verretor @crunklord420 @green not all lawyers
(DIR) Post #A38JTzERbvUgq16usi by amerika@freespeechextremist.com
2021-01-11T16:15:04.983185Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@melmc @crunklord420 @green @verretor NALALT?It's an old joke from the original site. In lists we always throw in "and lawyers" or "and sodomy" to see if people are still paying attention.
(DIR) Post #A3DXnchUueptvA8Xzs by lukedashjr@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-14T04:49:01Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@crunklord420 @verretor @green Not all of us.I'm anti-libertarian.
(DIR) Post #A3DggGnyovPbZdjmvA by verretor@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-14T06:28:33Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lukedashjr @crunklord420 @green So, you're telling me people with different opinions can talk to one another?
(DIR) Post #A3E3D2WZ8RgdpXcgs4 by green@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-14T10:40:59.956180Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lukedashjr @crunklord420 @verretor What does libertarianism mean to you?
(DIR) Post #A3E7JVYWVcfbQMsWoq by crunklord420@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-14T11:26:58.936751Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@green @lukedashjr @verretor like communism, the real free market has never been tried (and never will)
(DIR) Post #A3E7RWxBCEhY4lEjke by m@yeahnahcunt.club
2021-01-14T11:28:25.595187Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lukedashjr @crunklord420 @verretor @green Why?
(DIR) Post #A3E7ryOTnRP6i3cBM0 by green@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-14T11:33:12.131582Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@crunklord420 @lukedashjr @verretorI digress! It depends on what you mean by free market, it's all about that definition. If terms like "communism" refer to an unapproachable utopia, then sure, but I don't refer to free market in a teleological way. If someone asked me what "free market" means, I'd say it is an spontaneous institution that spawns out of the freedom from free agents. In my framework, the only free agents are currently States, so if you use that definition, free market is what has spawned in between the different States. International trade is pretty good, isn't it surprising that international trade, as large scale as it is, works better than the commerce that occurs inside States? States that close themselves to international trade are also behind everyone else.
(DIR) Post #A3E8AE9jvoECo9QOXY by verretor@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-14T11:36:30Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@green @lukedashjr @crunklord420 Free market also exists at small scales.Example: Anytime you do a transaction secretly with someone.
(DIR) Post #A3E8hnfEvyv2UTAR3Q by green@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-14T11:42:34.817599Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@verretor @lukedashjr @crunklord420 Cryptocurrencies have given us a newfound freedom. I was making a point that if "free market" is defined by the spontaneous institution in between free agents, as we're not really free, whatever transactions occur between us are not part of a free market.But this is just semantics, and in other ways I also think of black markets and crypto transactions of elements of a free market, so:1. I fucked up and free markets need a better definition2. Maybe "free agent" needs a better definition, as we are somewhat free. You could argue freedom is not just a boolean, but a range, the more authority you possess upon yourself to enforce self-ownership (authority defined as ability to exert violence), the more free you are.I'm still giving it a thought
(DIR) Post #A3E8jUppuYmgfjvseG by servant_of_the_anime_avatars@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-14T11:42:53.490870Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@green @crunklord420 @lukedashjr @verretor What good has come out of international trade? I.e. why do you prefer a world with international trade over one without?Besides cheap garbage why should I care about international trade?
(DIR) Post #A3E92ElPt7gmKWnl5M by wikifarms@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-14T11:44:50.747622Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@servant_of_the_anime_avatars @green @crunklord420 @lukedashjr @verretor because just as an example I am sure that most of what you are using now to write here is the result of international trade
(DIR) Post #A3E92F2mqXaFCOvdA0 by crunklord420@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-14T11:46:16.634468Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@wikifarms @servant_of_the_anime_avatars @green @lukedashjr @verretor where are my recreational nukes mr. freemarket
(DIR) Post #A3E98CuPhIjWJZrATg by servant_of_the_anime_avatars@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-14T11:47:21.357527Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wikifarms @crunklord420 @green @lukedashjr @verretor Unless you believe that the universe is inherently so good that everything which comes into existence is preferable over what doesn't come to exist, this is a logical fallacy.
(DIR) Post #A3E9Or6U1RaHbrRNZI by green@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-14T11:50:21.485730Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@servant_of_the_anime_avatars @crunklord420 @lukedashjr @verretor Internal regulation inside States make it more difficult to obtain profits, but when you commerce with agents that have no authority over you, you have more negotiation leverage. That's one of the reasons you can get cheap garbage from other countries, and garbage from your country is more expensive.Also, you don't have to care about international trade, if you don't care about it you give the rest of us more opportunities to make profit. You can focus on other things you deem more valuable.>why do you prefer a world with international trade over one without?1. I want more competition from many places to reach me so that I can obtain cheaper, better products. (Selfish argument no.1)2. I want to take advantage of inefficiencies in other countries, find out what demands they have do not meet the current offer they are supplied with, and profit off it (Selfish argument no.2)3. International trade is an expression of freedom, an agent wants to make a transaction with an outsider agent that also wants to make that transaction. Being against international trade is denying them their freedom to perform this transaction, and denying freedom is evil (Voluntaryist ethic argument)
(DIR) Post #A3E9sT4runDBmWo0x6 by servant_of_the_anime_avatars@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-14T11:55:42.097714Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@green @crunklord420 @lukedashjr @verretor Point 1-3 are just purely subjective value judgments. To point 1-2 I can just say "No" and to point 3 I can say that I don't agree with your definition of freedom.And already we are separated by an uncrossable mountain. That is why ethical discussions, like we are having, can't be mathematical.
(DIR) Post #A3E9ufT0p3Kimn9DSy by verretor@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-14T11:56:05Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@servant_of_the_anime_avatars @lukedashjr @crunklord420 @green When two countries trade, they may be able to get beyond their production possibilities curve because they have different comparative advantages.Here's a video from Khan Academy's free course on Microeconomics.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-xLUS5JGIM&feature=youtu.be
(DIR) Post #A3EADokmWFqF5dafSa by green@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-14T11:59:34.694829Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@servant_of_the_anime_avatars @crunklord420 @lukedashjr @verretor You asked me "why did I prefer", so I gave you the reasons why I find it valuable.You not agreeing with that definition just means you have a preference for having a different meaning to that specific word, not agreeing with the definition doesn't mean "that is not a consequence of that meaning". You can still discuss the meaning of freedom I intend, naming it freedom2.
(DIR) Post #A3EAFCHgWBfOMIde2y by verretor@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-14T11:59:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@servant_of_the_anime_avatars @lukedashjr @crunklord420 @green One obvious example would be Canada trying to grow sugar canes and India producing carrots.It's much better if Canada uses its land to grow carrots and trades with India to get sugar cane from them. Similarly, it's much better for India to use its land to grow sugar canes and trade with Canada to buy carrots.
(DIR) Post #A3EAQVKm21ewcsTVgW by wikifarms@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-14T11:43:19.546724Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@green @verretor @crunklord420 @lukedashjr mr green I like the part where you say "I fucked up"
(DIR) Post #A3EAy355a90qqZ8M0u by servant_of_the_anime_avatars@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-14T12:07:55.637608Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@verretor @lukedashjr @crunklord420 @green Sure. And "efficiency" can really be an objective (and testable) standard, which can then be justified by value judgments such as "more efficient food production results in less global hunger, which is good".But you still have to make that jump from testable fact, to value judgment, which can not be deduced, or tested.
(DIR) Post #A3EB6elNMgXO2419QO by servant_of_the_anime_avatars@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-14T12:09:29.142425Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@green @crunklord420 @lukedashjr @verretor But at the end of the day, you can not give me a chain of logical deductions which would force me to either become irrational or accept your point.
(DIR) Post #A3EBM5JSw3qQidJsHo by verretor@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-14T12:12:16Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@servant_of_the_anime_avatars @lukedashjr @crunklord420 @green Why don't you try to grow bananas and sugar cane in Canada and see how that goes?
(DIR) Post #A3EBxuY5P9tiL3CA8u by servant_of_the_anime_avatars@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-14T12:19:06.376710Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@verretor @lukedashjr @crunklord420 @green The result would either be dead bananas or costs for greenhouses.I fully agree that free trade is more efficient (just like specialization in general is), that seems to me a fact which is undeniable.But what doesn't work is jumping from these facts to concrete moral statements.(My point wasn't to say that "free trade doesn't work", but rather that, even if you have an accurate enough model of reality, you can't jump from the claims of those models to moral claims.)
(DIR) Post #A3EmEazaxrdcxUJk5g by lukedashjr@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-14T19:05:27Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@green @verretor @crunklord420 Putting a vague notion of liberty above at least government obligations, but often extending into treating it as the greatest good.
(DIR) Post #A3EmLHWBlfhYaSkcN6 by lukedashjr@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-14T19:06:42Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@m @green @verretor @crunklord420 Government has duties.
(DIR) Post #A3Emefmjlh97Lrjo2q by lukedashjr@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-14T19:10:12Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@green @verretor @crunklord420 To borrow a definition from the Catholic Encyclopedia (from "Liberalism"),"a partial or total emancipation of man from the supernatural, moral, and Divine order""an absolute and unrestrained freedom of thought, religion, conscience, creed, speech, press, and politics"
(DIR) Post #A3F9LjNaTiJzwWuXVw by verretor@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-14T23:24:29Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lukedashjr @green @crunklord420 I know a lot of Christian Libertarians.
(DIR) Post #A3F9TtxD2vTL3XT8Hw by lukedashjr@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-14T23:25:58Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@verretor @green @crunklord420 Is that like "Christian Atheists"?
(DIR) Post #A3F9Z2wt1zl4OulsZc by verretor@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-14T23:26:53Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lukedashjr @green @crunklord420 No. It's people who only serve God.
(DIR) Post #A3F9cRu0i7pWf633su by lukedashjr@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-14T23:27:30Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@verretor @green @crunklord420 So heretics who deny the State's authority comes from God?
(DIR) Post #A3F9trDTqZWk5wSLXE by verretor@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-14T23:30:39Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lukedashjr @green @crunklord420 I'm pretty sure Moses defied the Pharaoh's authority.
(DIR) Post #A3F9xAOuyZU2SmNsK8 by lukedashjr@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-14T23:31:15Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@verretor @green @crunklord420 Pharaoh's superior authorised it, and gave Moses his own authority.
(DIR) Post #A3FPPWZfczDieaOSMy by econengineer@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-15T02:24:26Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@lukedashjr @verretor @green @crunklord420 Christian Libertarians (like myself) recognize that God gave humans a choice in who they serve (for right or wrong); and we choose God of our own free will. Others don't and that's their right (bad choice on their part, but God didn't stop Adam and Eve either). We recognize that it's best if Man is governed by God, but we also recognize that God grants us the choice. He's not a dictator.
(DIR) Post #A3FRGsEhv62r8fahdo by lukedashjr@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-15T02:45:18Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@econengineer @verretor @green @crunklord420 Wrongs are by definition not rights.God would have stopped Adam & Eve if He did not have a plan to bring a greater good out of it, and even with such a plan, it did not absolve them of their sin, much less entitle them to protection from the consequences.
(DIR) Post #A3G4tb6lQqmrWUKbey by green@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-15T10:09:19.278827Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lukedashjr @verretor @crunklord420I am not a "Luke Dashjr" libertarian then. Instead, my notion of liberty is perfectly clear
(DIR) Post #A3G5DyB1NBe2rR2L8y by green@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-15T10:12:59.765754Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lukedashjr @verretor @crunklord420 Two can play that game1 Samuel 8:6-86 But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” And Samuel prayed unto the Lord.7 And the Lord said unto Samuel, “Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee; for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.States are the new religion, set by those who reject God's rule
(DIR) Post #A3GXIPbc8GMrnyNkLA by lukedashjr@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-15T15:27:31Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@green @verretor @crunklord420 You're just twisting Scripture here. We don't have the option for direct theocratic rule by God.
(DIR) Post #A3GXmurcTnlnRDPjKC by crunklord420@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-15T15:33:03.280888Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lukedashjr @green @verretor on a scale from 1 to heavenly how based is eastern orthodox compared to neo-catholicism?
(DIR) Post #A3GXw65S7bvOqtGJNo by green@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-15T15:34:42.985483Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lukedashjr @verretor @crunklord420 How come you're not the one interpreting the text wrongly?And on that second thing, "Theocratic rule by God" is spontaneous order. Why would God have made this Universe with this particular set of rules otherwise? That's precisely the rule. The State is the incarnation of Evil
(DIR) Post #A3GYFp7AvwzK0OTSMa by lukedashjr@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-15T15:38:15Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@green @verretor @crunklord420 I'm not twisting it to mean something it clearly doesn't.There is no such thing as "spontaneous order".The State is part of God's order.
(DIR) Post #A3GZ9vHjBDznMI9zg8 by green@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-15T15:48:25.091601Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lukedashjr @verretor @crunklord420 >it clearly doesn't mean that!You're just resorting to "no, you're wrong!" now, so I'll just leave this from Luke 4"4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it."If you're unsure of what this means, you can always ask your local religious authority to do the thinking for you
(DIR) Post #A3Ga4EthRrf2Ozm72O by lukedashjr@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-15T15:58:34Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@green @verretor @crunklord420 So you believe the devil over God, got it...
(DIR) Post #A3Gex2cTCN3q4C6RfM by green@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-15T16:53:19.587073Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lukedashjr @verretor @crunklord420 Please show the steps you followed to draw that conclusion
(DIR) Post #A3Gf2sqURzMzUVRkmG by lukedashjr@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-15T16:54:20Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@green @verretor @crunklord420 You are citing the devil's lies in an attempt to disprove authority granted by God.
(DIR) Post #A3GfYRVvbWjlzRsSvY by green@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-15T17:00:05.027033Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lukedashjr @verretor @crunklord420 Ohh, that's a good interpretation too, yeah, didn't think of that.I don't know if the devil was lying or not, but he sure sounds compelling to me. Anyway, I'll do the same false analogy as you did before, and allow you to worship the State over God, been fun
(DIR) Post #A3Gfeh68ZmeM3onLay by lukedashjr@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-15T17:01:09Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@green @verretor @crunklord420 Read St. Paul's epistle to the Romans
(DIR) Post #A3HZ4FoI9JDcR9eGmm by econengineer@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-16T03:22:03Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lukedashjr @verretor @green @crunklord420 What? Never said wrongs aren't rights. I just said "for right or wrong" meaning morally correct or morally wrong. Never said it absolved them of our sins either. Not sure where you got that.God reaches his hand out to us, and it's our choice to reach back. All I'm saying is one can be a libertarian and a christian. I voluntarily choose Jesus and allow others to voluntarily NOT. The catholic definition of the world liberalism is clearly wrong.