Post A388Tumd3GSFXqraTo by mgiagante@fosstodon.org
(DIR) More posts by mgiagante@fosstodon.org
(DIR) Post #A373BIc5XBp11OHFD6 by hurtado@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T01:16:06Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
Incendiary title, great reasons. Mozilla makes a good point.https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2021/01/08/we-need-more-than-deplatforming/
(DIR) Post #A373BIsOYYrjpxuGcy by oleg@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T01:37:41Z
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@hurtado it sounds like #mozilla on the way to hard-coded bans for bad websites.
(DIR) Post #A373aEix8Dv2CNNYY4 by hurtado@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T01:42:11Z
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@oleg Yeah, it does sound like that, but they're not actually suggesting that. Maybe in an eventual slippery slope scenario. That's why I'm saying their title is incendiary --which might have been their intention from the start, I don't know.--
(DIR) Post #A37eEQ0wAglT9CFbQu by mgiagante@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T04:07:35Z
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@hurtado That's Mozilla thinking some voices should be silenced.
(DIR) Post #A37eEQLquvUkC42J28 by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T08:32:49Z
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@mgiagante @hurtado Some people *should* be silenced. If Hitler's voice was silenced, how many people wouldn't've died?That isn't to say we can trust arbitrary people and organisations to *do* the silencing – that's another matter entirely. But the abstract ideal of “everyone should be free to say what they like to as many people as possible” is flawed.
(DIR) Post #A37fqxNoedbZb7tNx2 by hurtado@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T08:50:59Z
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@wizzwizz4 @mgiagante True. I think the whole "free marketplace of ideas" is a sham. Some people's voices are used to silence folks from marginalized communities (or even advocate their death in a stochastic-terroristic way), so their very speech hurts other's free speech (and maybe their lives and health).1/2
(DIR) Post #A37fseq8ZJeGfMwzAm by hurtado@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T08:51:19Z
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@wizzwizz4 @mgiagante Also, we should stop treating harmful conspiratorial discourse as being on the same level as science. It normalizes it and gives the idea of a center being the reasonable choice (Overton Window).2/2
(DIR) Post #A3845ATp9fmpAg0nTM by mgiagante@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T13:22:21Z
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@wizzwizz4 @hurtado I lean to favor freedom of speech, because the same censorship you'd want to impose on nazis will eventually be used on you.
(DIR) Post #A384JzJIxwQSsB9sAK by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T13:24:58Z
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@mgiagante @hurtado Ah, but it won't. I advocate the right for people to choose what the computer tells them to read; the people I care about reading what I write *aren't going* to “censor” me in that way.There's no right to “have your books on other people's bookshelves”; why have the digital equivalent?
(DIR) Post #A386iHRhOG3PydnOhE by hurtado@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T13:46:52Z
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@mgiagante @wizzwizz4 Returning to the Mozilla post, what they're advocating for is for people to have available information regarding the validity of the claims of online actors and the advertisers behind these actors. Being informed about our sources is a big part of free speech, specially when we have platforms that allow us to repost stuff without giving it a second thought. Is uninformed speech really free?
(DIR) Post #A386iHrDrMTFFnjmTo by mgiagante@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T13:49:48Z
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@hurtado @wizzwizz4 In my opinion, the uninformed speech, as well as disinformation and lies are a problem we need to solve, because it hits democracy in its biggest flaws. Although, if you look at the main title, Mozilla is making a statement: They are in favor of silencing certain voices. So I wouldn't consider them to be championing the values they used to anymore.
(DIR) Post #A386iICUaHU6JlgldI by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T13:51:57Z
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@mgiagante @hurtado If somebody's shouting “wizzwizz4 is to blame for all the world's problems”, I'm happy to shut them up. Likewise if they're shouting that about somebody else – and *especially* if people are believing them.
(DIR) Post #A386wsDTTVPY4b6Jfc by mgiagante@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T13:54:36Z
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@wizzwizz4 @hurtado Also we have to solve the fact that there are people yelling thing that are proven to be false like "not only women can give birth" and banning anyone who refutes them, and that's all ok. If we're going to censor lies, let's be fair and censor them all.
(DIR) Post #A386zPWMcUo7we97PU by mgiagante@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T13:51:06Z
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@hurtado @wizzwizz4 I also think as a society we focus too much on nazis as a model of evil when communists were even more harmful but we don't criticize them.
(DIR) Post #A386zT3nSeKivCoMRE by sotolf@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T13:54:12Z
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@mgiagante @hurtado @wizzwizz4 Well communism would work in theory nazism wouldn't, there is not really anything in the communist philosophy that will make evil, just in all the implementations we've seen until now. The same can't be said about naziism, it seems that you don't really understand communism.
(DIR) Post #A386zTVnmWjcK3uj5c by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T13:55:03Z
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@sotolf @mgiagante didn't say communism, but communists. I don't think the members of the Paris commune were meant.@hurtado
(DIR) Post #A3878pv1qJXWQGB3w0 by mgiagante@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T13:56:46Z
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@wizzwizz4 @sotolf @hurtado sure, communes and communism are different. Communes don't force you live with them and under their rules to gunpoint. They're voluntary.
(DIR) Post #A387MIhQ9HnTRrEU9Q by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T13:59:10Z
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@mgiagante @hurtado I'm not saying “censor things because I think they're wrong”. I'm saying “censor things because they're inciting murder”. Giving people the tools to censor for themselves, and to not have other people's propaganda broadcast into their brains, would help immensely.This is why I disagree with the Mozilla thing; they're not proposing revolutionary solutions like “maybe we shouldn't have Facebook” – they're just patching symptoms.
(DIR) Post #A387SydV8qeZFaaCWG by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T14:00:24Z
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@mgiagante @sotolf @hurtado So's communism. Please, please read some theory.Your argument is like saying “the People's Democratic Republic of Bob is an oppressive land of torture, so democracy is coercive and evil”.
(DIR) Post #A387adct8jOqPEwv0i by sotolf@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T14:01:47Z
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@wizzwizz4 @mgiagante @hurtado again, you're trying to equate communism with a dictator ruled hellscape, which is exactly the opposite of communism, that doesn't even fit to the name.
(DIR) Post #A387eq6egHhKGqsMVM by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T14:02:32Z
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@sotolf @mgiagante @hurtado (We agree. 😛)
(DIR) Post #A387k9cFZXSOE7Bjvc by mgiagante@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T13:55:52Z
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@sotolf @hurtado @wizzwizz4 It failed everytime it's been tried and took many more lives than nazism... and actually they are pretty much the same. Exacerbated statism and authoritarianism. The only difference is that nazism has the ingredient of race discrimination.
(DIR) Post #A387kC5kMqEvuB0KBM by sotolf@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T13:59:22Z
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@mgiagante @hurtado @wizzwizz4 If you really think that's the only difference you should really go refresh your history classes, and go on something else than american propaganda from the cold war era.
(DIR) Post #A387kDmK61tJ8VvqBU by mgiagante@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T14:01:47Z
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@sotolf @hurtado @wizzwizz4 All kinds of socialism end up being totalitarian. Look at the similarities on their systems. https://mises.org/library/why-nazism-was-socialism-and-why-socialism-totalitarian
(DIR) Post #A387kFblIGdCoL0R04 by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T14:03:28Z
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@mgiagante @sotolf Uhuh. So that's why the entirety of Western Europe is a totalitarian hellscape. (Oh no, socialist healthcare!)
(DIR) Post #A3881mSSPa45cG0quW by sotolf@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T14:02:48Z
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@mgiagante @hurtado @wizzwizz4 So you're calling a socialist democracy such as Norway, Sweden and Denmark totalitarian, nice... very believable.
(DIR) Post #A3881mvAgp293JRmfQ by mgiagante@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T14:04:12Z
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@sotolf @hurtado @wizzwizz4 Those are definitely not socialism. Look at all that free market. That is definitely not a stepstone to communism.
(DIR) Post #A3881nBpgsMRszF5dY by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T14:06:41Z
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@mgiagante @sotolf @hurtado Many systems of socialism require a free market.Please, please, read some theory.
(DIR) Post #A388GK24NauTncbW0e by hurtado@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T14:09:16Z
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@wizzwizz4 @mgiagante @sotolf I don't think we can expect a revolution coming from Mozilla. Maybe from the FSF or Software Freedom Conservancy. They did their best, which isn't even close to enough, and people are treating them like they're Rosa Luxemburg or something.
(DIR) Post #A388MArfNVHD6TWpgu by mgiagante@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T14:10:21Z
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@wizzwizz4 @sotolf @hurtado Those are nowadays social-democracies, which are just moderated versions that slowly become authoritarian. For instance, my country or Venezuela. It helps legitimize dictators through democracy.
(DIR) Post #A388OCkFMGCzVx1gcS by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T14:10:44Z
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@mgiagante You might be interested in market socialism (a libertarian-socialist idea). I don't know much about it myself, so it might actually have glaring holes, but… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism@sotolf @hurtado
(DIR) Post #A388Tumd3GSFXqraTo by mgiagante@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T14:11:47Z
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@wizzwizz4 @sotolf @hurtado Thanks, I'll give it a read.
(DIR) Post #A388lSPBIeAYkCGDz6 by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T14:14:56Z
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@mgiagante @sotolf @hurtado Yeah, there are.You can take ideas from category A, category B and category C and make something completely antithetical to the goals and aims of A B and C's pioneers and supporters. Combine libertarianism and socialism in the wrong way (or right way, depending on whether you're a wannabe dictator), and you get something without liberty of property or worker autonomy. Corrupt self-governed communes and you get an authoritarian state.
(DIR) Post #A3899bHpvimlEvKzs8 by floppy@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T14:19:17Z
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@wizzwizz4 @mgiagante @hurtado "Some people *should* be silenced. If Hitler's voice was silenced, how many people wouldn't've died?"The statement above is a dangerous one. At the risk of starting another argument: Maybe it was less that Hitler was not silenced, but that voices of reason were. In a healthy discourse Hilter's agitations would not have been able to infect people with access to better alternatives.
(DIR) Post #A389rIZYrzbVwNSu6S by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T14:27:12Z
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@mgiagante @sotolf @hurtado Corrupt a capitalist free market, and you get monopoly, crony capitalism and corporatism. Corrupt a representative democracy and you get a political class, probably with particracy, likely with a kleptocracy to follow. Corrupt an anarchy and you get a gang war.Anything can be turned to ill, if you're willing to throw out its core principles under the facade of preserving them.
(DIR) Post #A38A15abzm74ZPcoVs by hurtado@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T14:25:32Z
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@floppy @wizzwizz4 @mgiagante Hitler advocated for segregation and genocide. I don't think there is ever going to be a scenario where "let's let them speak and see what happens" is a good idea.
(DIR) Post #A38A15y0ampPjyZUyu by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T14:28:58Z
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@hurtado @floppy @mgiagante It's only recently that we've had the *ability* to create space for a healthy discourse on a large scale: the internet is truly powerful. However, a healthy discourse doesn't just *appear*; it has to be cultivated.Facebook and its ilk are actively cultivating the *opposite*. Algorithmically, so it's possible to fight against, but the machine is plodding and relentless, and we get tired.1/2
(DIR) Post #A38A8N9z4DNr5idvlI by wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org
2021-01-11T14:30:17Z
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@hurtado @floppy @mgiagante Within such a framework? Yes, I think centralised censorship is necessary: you need a check on the amoral engagement-optimising (centrally-dictating) robot, and those who'll take advantage of it for ill.In the ideal world? We wouldn't need to censor such people because nobody would listen to them in the first place. Who, who understands the world, would want to?2/2