Post A36a6MdWFg3fNdF0D2 by trinsec@qoto.org
(DIR) More posts by trinsec@qoto.org
(DIR) Post #A36TPNDLd0Oyzm7Ips by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T18:56:34Z
2 likes, 2 repeats
Picture of a #Dutch outfit during WWII... why am I not even surprised.The Dutch couldnt be anymore Dutch if they tried!
(DIR) Post #A36TtXSE7XQPRRSaeG by mur2501@qoto.org
2021-01-10T19:02:18Z
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@freemo Meanwhile Germans...
(DIR) Post #A36Tx4vu6WI28u1soK by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T19:02:50Z
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@mur2501 Also about what I'd expect :)
(DIR) Post #A36U29XgOV5Bt07UI4 by valleyforge@qoto.org
2021-01-10T19:03:49Z
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@freemo The first German troops to enter Belgium at the start of the first world war were bicycle troops who's job it was to warn the Belgian towns to not fight the German army
(DIR) Post #A36U73ySWX8I44zAES by mur2501@qoto.org
2021-01-10T19:04:43Z
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@freemo
(DIR) Post #A36WTNKlQPnuO4BYrw by VictorVenema@fediscience.org
2021-01-10T19:31:07Z
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@freemo Knowing these pictures I was surprised to learn from a US historian that before WWII the Dutch army was bigger than the US army.
(DIR) Post #A36Xg1pGno5BOs3Gwi by trinsec@qoto.org
2021-01-10T19:44:38Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@freemo The Dutch were absolutely not prepared for WWII. Shitty equipment, and not expecting to be invaded at all. We kinda expected a repeat of WWI.
(DIR) Post #A36Y4lfjzxw6XXOK48 by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T19:49:00Z
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@trinsec Thats what happens when as a nation you tend to be anti-gun, i finda would have expected the Dutch to have learned their lesson from WWII
(DIR) Post #A36YPspwYWskqFESCe by trinsec@qoto.org
2021-01-10T19:52:53Z
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@freemo Heh, way to go to compare a situation from 80 years ago with now. 😝 Besides, I do fully expect soldiers to be armed, jeez.
(DIR) Post #A36YdpPG6gVMFyOrCa by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T19:55:20Z
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@trinsec The situations arent unrelated.. by not having armed civilians who knew how to use a gun when it came time for every civilian to fight there were neither the guns nor expiernce to to do it. This policy ultimately led to a complete inability to prevent nazi germany from taking over.now, 80 years later that same formula is at play and should another hitler ever rise dutch will find themselves repeating history never having learned that lesson from WWII
(DIR) Post #A36YktAWW6yBx6sH2m by mur2501@qoto.org
2021-01-10T19:56:43Z
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@freemo @trinsec That's really not a good point for just giving away guns to everyone :blobcatglare:
(DIR) Post #A36ZByXyd2MYS3lDCi by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:01:26Z
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@mur2501 How ya figure. Every point in the gun debate should be considered, and that is a pretty strong one, it isnt the only one.@trinsec
(DIR) Post #A36ZMouum009lnf1Fo by trinsec@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:03:34Z
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@freemo I have to agree with @mur2501 here. That's not a good enough argument. It's a theory at best.And precisely to avoid a WWII scenario from happening, we formed the EU. Guns are supposed to be not necessary.The countries who do have guns are either 1) Countries who are big on hunting (Norway, Finland, even in my country you CAN own a gun but with restrictions), or 2) Countries who have had a difficult past fairly recently (civil wars and such, illegal firearms left over).You're moving on from 'freedom' to 'necessity' here.
(DIR) Post #A36ZcIheJNo0UepyrI by mur2501@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:06:24Z
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@freemo @trinsec I think we are in a age where we shall stop bragging up weapons and understand the lessons of all wars. We use gun to attack or gun to defend at the end someone is killed.
(DIR) Post #A36ZlS8WbjCmMClwy8 by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:07:40Z
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@trinsec It is not the **only** argument for guns, just one in a long list of them, and a valid one.As for forming a "coalition" in the EU intended to prevent that... that didnt work so well for the other world wars, in fact, coalitions are said by some to be the cause.@mur2501
(DIR) Post #A36a12mIep0ALIoM52 by hansw@hub.libranet.de
2021-01-10T20:10:51Z
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The Dutch are with only a few in the army. There is a good reason since they would loose a lot of man/woman if another Hitler like idiot would barge in. We do not expect people to pick up guns since we think that another war could only be a nuke one or a digital one where they will simply hack into powerplants, water protection, etc...
(DIR) Post #A36a6MdWFg3fNdF0D2 by trinsec@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:11:49Z
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@freemo None of those coalitions in the past were as advanced as the EU. Despite what the British tried to sabotage. :PWe have much better cooperation with our neighbours than USA has with theirs.Look, I'm thinking you're hugely considering this from your American POV. Maybe you're feeling you can get invaded any time, and that every civilian probably should be armed for that eventuality. I'm thinking it's a paranoid way of living.If we get invaded, the armies are going to be better armed than the civilians, no matter what. It's the era of drones and planes. We have a fairly good air force, a hand gun is going to be a shitty comparison there.@mur2501
(DIR) Post #A36a6thZJduBvkOCbQ by hansw@hub.libranet.de
2021-01-10T20:11:49Z
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B.t.w., both the Dutch and German army sometimes even practice with broomsticks due to the old materials, it isn't safe.
(DIR) Post #A36a9etAqVnGrG8Nvs by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:12:21Z
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@mur2501 thats a naive view of guns. The vast majority of legitimate uses of guns doesnt result in any loss of human life. Most people most of the time, at least during peace time, use them either for sport, or to protect the animals on a farm, or a combination of both. The use of a gun to actually kill someone is such a small percentage of their use as to be almost insignificant in terms of percentages of when/how a gun is used.As for not needing guns or needing wars, that is always the hope. Lets hope people who are armed only ever need it to shoot at targets and enjoy the sport.However it is scary just how similar your wording is to the views after WWI when the people of europe felt they learned their lesson and through coalitions, rather than guns or armies, could solve their problems. A wonderful idea, and by all means peace should be the goal. But things often dont work out as planned, they didnt work out then, and chances are they wont work out again. And when the next world war does happen it will again be the people without the guns sent to the gas chambers.@trinsec
(DIR) Post #A36aLEEZm1wTfGf6Ku by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:14:22Z
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@trinsec Funny, they thought the same thing right before WWII too... everyone things that is true, right up until it isnt.I love mostly in the netherlands, and have spent more of my adult life outside of the USA than in it.. my views may seem american in nature but I am considering it from world-expiernce not an american perspective. To be clear in my entire life in the USA I personally saw only 3 guns and they were all at shooting ranges i went to. It wasnt until I was older I bought one and had virtually no exposure to guns as a child and no one in my family had them either.@mur2501
(DIR) Post #A36aX82MdigFv6cllI by trinsec@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:16:39Z
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@freemo Good news, you're allowed a weapon here for hunt or sport. Get your license and have fun!https://www.politie.nl/themas/wapens.html#alinea-title-hoe-krijg-ik-een-wapenvergunningI consider the rest to be a rather pessimistic view of the world and bordering on fearmongering. :P@mur2501
(DIR) Post #A36aiYB1nEIAB07gYq by mur2501@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:18:44Z
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@freemo @trinsec If I start justifying use of weapons then stopping just at guns would not be good. Give everyone missiles :ablobblewobble: Yayy big big bombs will be donated to all the poor people :ablobaww: Let everyone shine their nukes on eachothers heads :ablobblastoff: There's no end to this,This do is FREEDOM, freedom to do anything, say anything, everything.But it's not peace.Now it's a personal choice what someone wants, peace or the other thing.
(DIR) Post #A36amkeRM6J41VsqVE by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:19:23Z
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@trinsec Saying we should strive for peace, and do our best to ensure war never happens, but be prepared in the off chance it does is fear mongering? ... ok ::shrug::@mur2501
(DIR) Post #A36atQH1W9ZCqm6zTs by SwordFighterSuper@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-10T20:20:43.706400Z
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@mur2501Poor people could use bombs tbh.@freemo @trinsec
(DIR) Post #A36azCCojav4xOtgcy by trinsec@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:21:43Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@freemo Oh don't pull that wording to me. Saying all kinds of scary things and then adding a 'I hope that is not going to be the case' is still fearmongering. You planted the idea of a fearful scenario to prove why weapons would be necessary. But hey, you do hope it's not necessary! :P@mur2501
(DIR) Post #A36b3FcLzVUChHm7mK by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:22:21Z
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@mur2501 Thats absurdism, people should have the same level and access to weapons as the country or state has to use against them.. So if your cops can carry rocket launchers, then yes, I agree so should a citizen. If they cant then neither should a citizen. This would also extend tot he equivelant of national guards. If it is legal for a country to deploy its own military within its borders to use against its own people, such as tanks, then the people should have equal access to tanks. If you dont want people to have access to tanks then make laws where it is illegal for ones own military to use tanks against its own people (which is likely the case in many countries),.@trinsec
(DIR) Post #A36b9onm5dSDYZFUaO by mur2501@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:23:39Z
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@freemo @trinsec Your example was of an eminent war. Ofcourse you not gonna hunt ducks in a war.
(DIR) Post #A36bBqX8cf0tVSQz9E by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:23:57Z
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@trinsec You act like there arent 100 wars going on in the world at this very second, or countless cultures being murdered because they have no way of defending themselves. Its not fear mongering to recognize what is not just true but actively happening... nor does it stop you from ensuring peace simply because people are prepared should someone someone choose not to be follow your dream of peace.@mur2501
(DIR) Post #A36bJ90WKr5SpTephQ by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:25:17Z
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@mur2501 Yes my example was of an eminent war.. do you know what percentage of soldiers in any war carry guns vs those carrying rocket launchers? a hint, the overwhelming majority. In a war situations the ones int he tanks and the rocket launchers are the specialists, not the common soldier, and certainly there is little need for such a group to be comprised of the common civilian.@trinsec
(DIR) Post #A36bjrUDaOoCJ8Hvto by mur2501@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:30:05Z
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@freemo @trinsec It's absurd, but also it's freedom.
(DIR) Post #A36bmoCqEqe10EZ8im by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:30:39Z
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@mur2501 Yes, it certainly would be freedom.@trinsec
(DIR) Post #A36bnnFnGUFcL3PrI8 by mur2501@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:30:52Z
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@freemo @trinsec Then we shall also have tanks
(DIR) Post #A36c4n6h41Ewo3GTRI by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:33:53Z
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@mur2501 I never claimed all freedom is good, though im not sure id be opposed to personal ownership of tanks under the right system and conditions. I just dont see it as nearly as pressing or as having much of a defensible reason as there is with guns. But I dont see a huge problem with it if done properly. I dont trust most of our military to not be murderers and they seem to roll around in them so why not.You can legally own a tank in the USA and I have yet to hear of a single incident where it has been a problem.
(DIR) Post #A36cV6lsZiIRK64tZg by mur2501@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:38:42Z
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@freemo Not in USA mostly, though you can ask the people of the war torn countries. What's the problem with an American tank, a Chinese tank, a Russian tank.
(DIR) Post #A36ccIy1d519AvBtQW by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:39:56Z
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@mur2501 Like i said in the right system and under the right conditions. It is legal in the USA and has never been a single incident. That doesnt mean it would work in other countries and under different conditions or regulations.
(DIR) Post #A36cxJdsJa7RLkmhQ8 by trinsec@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:43:45Z
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@freemo Those wars right now are not in my country, and I sincerely hope that's going to stay this way. 'Prepare for peace, build an army', civilians are not armies. You might think your militia is, because of your constitution, but we don't.We send troops over the world as support to try to help resolve some of those wars. Our army is geared to try to stabilize regions and de-escalate situations.Might bigger armies be needed, we still have conscription in our laws. It is merely put on hold, but it can be put back in use any time. The government decided having professionals was the way to go, so our army is full of trained people which can be used in any situation.I will have to trust my government. I do trust my government. It probably helps that a chance of a type like that orange guy getting in office and deciding everything is extremely slim.@mur2501
(DIR) Post #A36czGY2n0LoKhzFdA by mur2501@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:44:11Z
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@freemo You know conditions and regulations only work when all people respect and follow them.
(DIR) Post #A36d2QID128zQM5NA0 by servant_of_the_anime_avatars@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-10T20:29:05.160190Z
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@mur2501 @freemo @trinsec Access to weapons is a necessity for any kind of self defense. If you don't have access to weapons you functionally do not have a right to defend yourself.I don't want the state to be my sole protector I want to be able to be responsible for myself.
(DIR) Post #A36d2QdpidRQVQCdrk by trinsec@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:29:56Z
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@servant_of_the_anime_avatars That is not true. You have the right to defend yourself. Just not with a firearm here.@freemo @mur2501
(DIR) Post #A36d2R4Q7mhzpsdsJ6 by servant_of_the_anime_avatars@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-10T20:42:30.103507Z
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@trinsec @freemo @mur2501 There is no self defense against someone with a gun. Even if you get threatened at knife point all you can do is do what is being asked of you, if you are unarmed. And the same goes for everyone who might be willing to help you, they can not defend you.Guns are the great equalizer.Here in germany (where knifes openable with one hand are illegal) there was a case where a women was raped at knife point during her camping trip after being dragged out of her tent while her boyfriend waited inside and then called the police. And the comment of the police was that they both did the right thing.I don't want to live like that. I don't want the responsibility for my safety and that of the ones I love purely resting on government agents keeping the bad people away.
(DIR) Post #A36d2RIxFkKoYxRTxg by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:44:37Z
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@servant_of_the_anime_avatars Well said, and I often point out that as far as gun rights go it is probably one of the biggest issue in womens rights and one of few ways women can protect themselves. Policies that restrict access to guns are ultimately (although perhaps not intentionally so) sexist in their nature.@mur2501 @trinsec
(DIR) Post #A36dFadLsZuRGEFmPA by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:46:54Z
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@trinsec Armies are find whe your sending a few people off to help the USA fight iran or something.. But unless you intend to waste half your budget on armies like america does (which I do not recommend) that wont suite you when and if war does come.Not even a single generation has passed yet since the last world war (but we are at the point where in about 10 more years we will be only one generation removed)... It seems like huberis to say it could never happen and thus no need to consider it when we havent even managed to go a single generation yet without one.@mur2501
(DIR) Post #A36dTKdq8OXjiT2CS8 by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:49:35Z
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@mur2501 There are a lot of americans who would have no problem not respecting or following the regulations around tanks.. yet somehow, not a single incident. So yea, obviously the regulations need to be enforced, that is a given. But that doesnt mean an individual on a whim can violate them, its usually people in power enforcing it and ensuring they cant (hopefully).
(DIR) Post #A36dp86FRf0XBniSnY by mur2501@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:53:32Z
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@freemo This just like saying you don't have any gun incidents.But who trusts in the powerful?
(DIR) Post #A36dwVRJ4EOTbS5EZM by trinsec@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:54:46Z
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@freemo @servant_of_the_anime_avatars "Guns are the great equalizer."I thought it was about freedom, not a 'level playing field'.Guess the argument I had the other day wasn't quite 100% correct. Everybody needs guns, apparently, in order to be able to defend themselves, or to even live normally at all.And it is terrible what happened to that woman in Germany. But would the outcome really be that different if they had guns? There could be deaths, and it might not even be the culprits who died. We don't know, so it's pure speculation at this point. It is also not a common occorence, thankfully.Go learn martial arts if you're seriously concerned about your well-being. That's allowed.@mur2501
(DIR) Post #A36eISCTn6DRvac6ue by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T20:58:45Z
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@mur2501 having no incidents is pretty good evidence its safe.
(DIR) Post #A36esQ6D52EBpupak4 by mur2501@qoto.org
2021-01-10T21:05:21Z
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@freemo No incidents of?
(DIR) Post #A36f3tQgN64FzIsTrc by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T21:07:17Z
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@trinsec “Guns are the great equalizer.” I thought it was about freedom, not a ‘level playing field’.Depends, you cant take catch phrases out of context and expect it to apply.When we talked about a “level playing field” you spoke about criminals having guns and thus requiring people to own guns in order to “keep up”. In that sense, as we covered it wasn’t valid since criminals do not have legal access to guns and thus there is a greater barrier to a criminal being armed than a law abiding citizen, so the idea of a “level playing field” or a need to buy guns just to keep up with criminal elements with guns was invalidated. The context is important.However now we are talking about criminals having the upper hand not because they have a gun or a weapon but because a man is physically stronger than a woman. In that sense yes having a gun absolutely creates a “level playing field” but in a way that is completely unrelated to your earlier use of the term. In this case it allows a woman to defend herself against a stronger man and protect her from being rapped.I’ll give you a pass this time as you tend to debate rather respectfully, so ill take it as a slip. But please dont become one of those people who start using what someone says in a debate out of context in sound bite form just to try to get the upper hand in an argument. If we go down that route these discussions will become very unpleasant very quickly. Guess the argument I had the other day wasn’t quite 100% correct. Everybody needs guns, apparently, in order to be able to defend themselves, or to even live normally at all.You dont need a gun to defend yourself or live normally, not all the time. But it does ensure that if youa re at the mercy of a gang of people, or an individual stronger than you, or people with knives, that you walk away alive rather than dead. And it is terrible what happened to that woman in Germany. But would the outcome really be that different if they had guns? There could be deaths, and it might not even be the culprits who died. We don’t know, so it’s pure speculation at this point. It is also not a common occorence, thankfully.While you may not know for sure how it would have ended would she have had a gun its a pretty fair bet she stood a hell of a better chance walking away without having known rape and with a dead rapist at her feet than walking away raped and traumatized for life. Yes someone would have probably wound up dead, and in all liklihood it would have been the someone who deserved death through their choice of actions.@servant_of_the_anime_avatars @mur2501
(DIR) Post #A36f6KZQQtmak985xI by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T21:07:49Z
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@mur2501 Someone in the USA exercising their right to own a personal tank to kill someone.
(DIR) Post #A36fBOBARWx5NqC9js by icedquinn@blob.cat
2021-01-10T21:08:47.947182Z
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@freemo @mur2501 recreational nukes :blobcatancap:
(DIR) Post #A36fIJYk19iH5BWXXk by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T21:09:54Z
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@icedquinn I dont even think governments should have nukes. That has less to do with weapons ownership and more to do with weapons of mass destruction in general.@mur2501
(DIR) Post #A36fPPWqDpdLci1EfY by waltercool@pl.slash.cl
2021-01-10T21:11:19.831485Z
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@freemo Looks better prepared than French guys.
(DIR) Post #A36fQv8ICjqlvnFxSK by mur2501@qoto.org
2021-01-10T21:11:33Z
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@freemo Not killing, though can't say there are no incidents :blobcatglare: https://youtu.be/KpgkhngU8yEAlso there are not many personal tanks in USA to give any numbers
(DIR) Post #A36fbg7INGN8Xqv50K by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T21:13:26Z
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@mur2501 That has absolutely no relationship to legal ownership of tanks.. That was literally someone from the army who stole a tank from an army facility.. So if anything that proves my point rather than detracts from it, that the military in tank are a greater risk than the general population having legal access to them.
(DIR) Post #A36foVCmFq8GT4bBQG by servant_of_the_anime_avatars@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-10T21:11:43.886750Z
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@trinsec @freemo @mur2501If you had ever done martial arts you would know three things:- It's hard and very time consuming to get good at. And even if you are good, if the other guy is just a lot bigger or there is more than one, you loose.- It's near(!) useless against knives. If you are defending against an attacker with a knife the best thing you can hope for is non-lethal wounds on your arms.- It's useless against guns. Unless someone is stupid enough to put the gun directly on your head there is about nothing you can do.Any person is able to kill with a gun with an hour of training. Every person with a gun is automatically dangerous, but at the same time no person with a gun is ever powerless.The thing I care about in this discussion is self responsibility. I want to be responsible for my own life, I want to be able to protect it as best I can. To be free means to be responsible for oneself.The question I ask myself is "what would I have done sitting in that tent", if I had a gun the answer would be clear, but if I hadn't what then? I seriously don't know, but what I do know is that I never want to be in a position where I am without any power to change my own fate.
(DIR) Post #A36foVS1LAKFELjMBM by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T21:15:40Z
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@servant_of_the_anime_avatars The other problem is, while a woman can learn martial arts, so can a criminal.. but a criminal isnt allowed to own a gun and has less access to them where a law abiding woman can.Also good luck telling a woman to learn martial arts. My friend (a tiny woman) is learning right now and even her instructor says "do not engage you will loose and you will die even if you are trained.. i will teach you how to run away".. which is a great skill to have but not always effective. Not nearly as effective as a gun.@mur2501 @trinsec
(DIR) Post #A36fwQEWciH3MgC0oa by mur2501@qoto.org
2021-01-10T21:17:16Z
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@freemo Yayyy take away the tanks from the armies 😎
(DIR) Post #A36geODjT5Nhrcms2i by hansw@hub.libranet.de
2021-01-10T21:25:12Z
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@🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 I think the biggest difference with the Dutch and the US citizens is that people in the Netherlands grow up to find that a gun is not needed. We have no real dangerous animals there besides a few wolves who will probably avoid you anyway and some wild pigs with youngsters.Those people who do carry guns are either active in the drug wars or there are young idiot who want to rob stores. I think that they, in most cases, do not even have bullits in them since they are afraid to shoot.I have visited the so called dangerous places in the Netherlands during the day and night. Never once felt the need to take a gun or get me one to feel more safe. Never have been in a situation where I wished I had one besides during a visit in the middle east country called Algeria. Not even when I visited Kingston (Jamaica) as a white guy I felt that need.As for wars, when there will be another one it will be the last one imho.But let me ask you a question. Do you feel safe if you walk home in the dark in Utrecht? And how about when you are located in the US? Would you walk the streets without having a gun?
(DIR) Post #A36gok2xAqDyS6gKNE by mur2501@qoto.org
2021-01-10T21:27:04Z
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@freemo I didn't expected you would miss this, but people are not born with a criminal tag on their head. @trinsec
(DIR) Post #A36gtCcyqt2MFlezqa by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T21:27:48Z
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@hansw I think the biggest difference with the Dutch and the US citizens is that people in the Netherlands grow up to find that a gun is not needed.Thats probably not as much of a difference as you think. Most americans dont own guns, most americans have never really been around a gun really. Only a few feel they truly “need” one. Like I said I had no exposure to guns myself until I was much older and only after a lot of reflection, reviewing the evidence and the statistics did I ultimately change my mind. Not due to how I was raised or anything else I now am of the opinion that it is irresponsible not to own a gun, so I own one.
(DIR) Post #A36h5fLJupDImqLJ8i by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T21:29:59Z
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@hansw But let me ask you a question. Do you feel safe if you walk home in the dark in Utrecht?Yes I feel safe walking home at night in Utrecht. And how about when you are located in the US? Would you walk the streets without having a gun?Yes I also feel safe walking home at night in the US without a gun, at least in my city.The gun I own is a AR-15, not a handgun. It isnt a gun I can or would carry. I have never carried a handgun and dont really feel unsafe without one. Though I do plan to get one to keep in my car just in case, more out of preparedness than necessity.As I said before I never saw anyone on the streets in america with a gun in my life, so never felt threatened by them.
(DIR) Post #A36hBoovaiHRv07pgW by hansw@hub.libranet.de
2021-01-10T21:31:16Z
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@🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 But as for my question, do you feel concerned or afraid if you walk the streets of Utrecht without one? Or in the US?
(DIR) Post #A36hNCsYTyftihFhM8 by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T21:33:11Z
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@hansw I answered that here: https://qoto.org/@freemo/105533551398862971I have never carried a gun int he USA or Utrecht. The gun I own stays at home, its an AR-15. I have never felt unsafe walking home in either place unarmed.
(DIR) Post #A36hR0OErGeS90soro by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T21:33:57Z
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@mur2501 No they dont. But by the time they are legally old enough to won a gun they have already went through a good portion of life and should they happen to be a criminal likely have already committed crimes by the time they are of age to buy a gun.@trinsec
(DIR) Post #A36hkL5a7j9VqMNLkW by hansw@hub.libranet.de
2021-01-10T21:37:26Z
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@🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 Ok, then I think we at least have pointed out the difference between the Dutch and you (I name you since I will not take that as granted for all).Though I do plan to get one to keep in my car just in case, more out of preparedness than necessity.This shows me that your remark about feeling safe is not entirely true. If you feel safe (let's take the Utrecht situation) you would not even think about having one in your car. Preparedness is weird imho.
(DIR) Post #A36hlUsdCpZgV2s1Ym by trinsec@qoto.org
2021-01-10T21:37:41Z
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@freemo @servant_of_the_anime_avatars Point taken about the martial arts. I'll retract that statement, that was a good reasoning and naive of me.But you're talking about the viewpoint where it is a criminal who is not allowed guns. In the other debate I wasn't talking about this viewpoint at all. What if they do own a gun legally?(Also, if every non-criminal can get guns, then criminals would be more likely to be able to get guns as well. In a society where guns are abundant, they can be stolen and sold off to criminals easier.)So if the woman in Germany was allowed a gun.. who's to guarantee that those rapists weren't carrying a gun either? Especially with those intentions they'd prepare accordingly. Instead of a knife, they might actually have put her at gunpoint.@mur2501
(DIR) Post #A36i4FbqCsB6dkxXM0 by mur2501@qoto.org
2021-01-10T21:41:06Z
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@freemo Well yeah many go into crimes in childhood but that's the only age people enter into crime, nah.People can become criminal at any age for any reasons. @trinsec
(DIR) Post #A36iPkycmJRq0Qs3Qu by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T21:44:49Z
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@trinsec Yes a criminal could potentially steal a law abiding citizens gun. The argument here is not that no criminals will ever have guns. The argument is that because there is a significantly greater barrier for a criminal obtaining a gun than a law abiding citizen then the odds are always going to favor the the law abiding citizen being significantly more likely to have a gun than a criminal, putting criminals at a disadvantage and the superior defensive position being with the law abiding citizens.We do occasionally have incidents of criminals pulling guns, however you'll find an overwhelming majority of such incidents int he USA take place in no-gun zones where law abiding citizens are not allowed to carry and thus dont. typically when such an incident takes place in the general public away from no-gun zones the good guys far outnumber the bad guy when ti comes to guns and the incident often doesnt progress very farA prime example of this is attached in the below. A person in a public space in that picture tried to pull a gun with the intention of shooting up the place. However 7 different people with guns immediately responded and took down the individual without futher incident. Showing exactly what I mean where even if a bad guy does get a gun, which is relatively hard to do so most dont, they will be outnumbered significantly and unable to use it. In this case law abiding citizens with guns outnumbered "bad guys" 7 to 1.@servant_of_the_anime_avatars @mur2501
(DIR) Post #A36if4L74QJeOzgujw by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T21:47:40Z
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@mur2501 It would be extremely unusual for someone to have no mental health issues in their past, no violence, and no criminal record and then one day in their 40s just decide to go start killing people... While there will always be exceptions the vast majority of people who are going to take a gun and kill someone is going to have some prior history of more minor violence.@trinsec
(DIR) Post #A36kaIxfTlLyDAa56O by trinsec@qoto.org
2021-01-10T22:09:15Z
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@freemo I think I've read about the incident in that church before. In a country that's already so infused with firearms, it is a good thing to own one to prevent such situations from escalating. Because to de-arm the American civilians (and criminals) at this point is pretty much impossible.Europe, however, is a totally different beast. Especially in the urban areas. To introduce guns there like USA has would not improve it, of that I am certain.Europe is basically almost a gigantic no-gun zone. Yet we don't really seem to have criminals waltzing around with guns in abundance. Sure, knives are a possibility. But knives are around aplenty, so pretty easy to get. And if guns were legal, they'd get crafty and 'acquire' guns instead.So long the average statistics show that USA is not in better shape regarding violent cases (murder, rape, etc) than my country, I am not feeling terribly inclined to vote for easier gun laws here. Even though the average American citizen is able to defend themselves, apparently it is not really making society that much safer.There will always be extreme cases, like terrorism. But that's exactly it, an extreme case. Even in USA it's hard to fight this, despite their gun laws.@servant_of_the_anime_avatars @mur2501
(DIR) Post #A36kbRgQXKkVYG3oaO by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T22:09:16Z
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@hansw If I were allowed to have a gun in my car in utrecht I would be just as eager to have one. Again its not out of a concern for safety its because it is responsible to do so.I also keep packed away emergency ham radio in my car just in case there is a massive nationwide catastrophe and the cell networks were all to go down. That doesnt mean I walk around scared the cell networks would go down. It is because it is responsible to do so. Always be more prepared than you should ever expect to need, anything less is irresponsible.Now I will say that while I feel exactly the same fear and necessity to have a gun in Utrecht as I do walking through my own city there are places I may feel legitimate fear and the necessity to to carry a gun out of fear. but those locations have nothing to do with the presence or lack of guns and everything to do with the economic despair of a particular location that I feel might lead to desperate acts.
(DIR) Post #A36kc3NGP200RpO2zY by hansw@hub.libranet.de
2021-01-10T22:09:36Z
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We do not need guns but mental health care? :-)
(DIR) Post #A36khuaFzx54vFG38q by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T22:10:33Z
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@trinsec Well obviously we disagree. I hear of rapes in europe all the time and plenty of other incidents that I have no doubt most of which would have been prevented by responsible gun ownership.Pretty sure the women raped in your urban centers would be a lot better off if they had had a gun.@servant_of_the_anime_avatars @mur2501
(DIR) Post #A36lUddvlw2qZTD8mu by hansw@hub.libranet.de
2021-01-10T22:19:28Z
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@🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 You are a number guy I think. What are the odds that a nationwide catastrophe will happen? And what is the change you might hit a solar flare the kills all electric devices (in that case your hamradio might be broken too I think)? I am 60 years old now and I twice had an outage of the cell network (4g). There where a few outages when there was a severe winter storm in 1978 if I remember correctly.Imho that are 2 different issues b.t.w. In most cases people tend to help each other when a catastrophe is happening, that has been proven by what I see. People tend not to loot or grab guns in such cases.I do understand having ham around (I even thought about doing that too). I do however can walk down the street to another Dutchie over here who has the installation. Some other Germans over here have that too. I might consider LORO (isn't that what it is called?)In case of a solarflare I will walk to one of the farms nearby and ask them to start their tractors to help out to (I know they will).So please tell me why I should prepare myself with guns?
(DIR) Post #A36ln2arkGYVANYIvA by hansw@hub.libranet.de
2021-01-10T22:22:47Z
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s/change/chance
(DIR) Post #A36lr1fh7EBHSsi9Eu by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T22:23:23Z
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@hansw In case you see someone getting raped, incase someone pulls a knife on you with the intent to kill, incase another hitler invades, In case a maniac with a truck starts trying to kill people by running over them.The reasons are endless why one might potentially need a gun. Much like a nationwide cell outage these sorts of things may happen once in a life time, if that, so they are nothing to live in fear of. But again it isnt about fear, its about being responsible just in case.
(DIR) Post #A36nACSFLewcMe7yXA by hansw@hub.libranet.de
2021-01-10T22:38:06Z
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Ok, if it is about being responsible then what about the guns people buy (I suppose you mean the legal buys) if they do have a mental problem? The guys in Gouda (years ago) had a permit and people told the Police he has mental issues. They still gave him a permit (human faillure). People without practice having a handgun might even have shot other people then the guy who killed 7 people.Over and over it looks like governments (local or nationwide) are not able to judge if someone is sane enough.If we take it a little further (European wide) than we see terrorist attacks in France and I can't even remember the number of times where the nationwide government is not able to prevent these actions even when they are on a watchlist (this proves the giving permits to weapons is very hard to judge). The official judges are not capable to give such permits in general.One could state that if we have the right to prevent it then it would not happen. It does happen and will happen. I can also explain why I think it will not work.People in the Netherlands, ok, maybe only 99 percent of them, are not living in a code yellow area. See Schneiers article on it:https://www.schneier.com/essays/archives/2015/09/living_in_code_yello.htmlJeff Cooper, a handgun specialist, is stating exactly the point and this is how I see the differences in this. We simply are not aware of danger once we are grown up. Or we deal with it in a different way. #^Bloedbad in winkelcentrum Alphen aan den RijnBij een schietpartij in winkelcentrum De Ridderhof in Alphen aan den Rijn zijn vanmiddag 7 doden en vele gewonden gevallen. Onder de gewonden bevin...
(DIR) Post #A36nDAm834B61aqS4O by trinsec@qoto.org
2021-01-10T22:38:33Z
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@freemo That's exactly it. You are convinced that it would be less with responsible gun ownership.Why can't USA prove the same by having lower average crime statistics for the same crimes right now? They've got the guns, surely the rape incidence should be a lot less than my country?Let's grab this link, I hope it is official enough:https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/rape-statistics-by-countryRape rate in NL is 9.20 and DE is 9.40. Rape rate in USA is 27.30, but man, it got the guns.What strikes me as funny is that the Scandinavic countries have a higher rape rate than central Europe... while gun ownership is a bit more easy over there. Surprised me a bit. Belgium's fucking scary as well, despite that they also seem to have more easy gun laws than we do.So, it doesn't seem to be a guarantee at all. I do not agree with your conviction that responsible gun ownership would've prevented all this. Who ensures that only the responsible ones own them? If after decades of experience USA can't manage this, why would we even think of entering this rabbit hole?@servant_of_the_anime_avatars @mur2501
(DIR) Post #A36nsOYhhsAae8Dp0S by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-10T22:46:02Z
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@trinsec As a Data Scientist I can tell you right off the bad this is loaded with more statistical fallacies than I care to count.In statistics we do not draw cause and effect conclusions from correlation, we use causality tests to assert causality.The fallacy in your thinking is the idea that if guns show an improvement in the number of rapes, that it must also be the most dominant factor in rapes. For example you completely ignore mental health access, poverty leading to poor home environments, greater ethnic and religious diversity coupled with greater levels of racism, culural ethics in how men treat women. Most of these are far more dominant causes in the frequency of rape attempts than a gun, simply because a gun improves the numbers, even if it improves them significantly in no way even remotely implies that the places with the most guns must therefore have the least rape, particularly if your sample-size of countries is rather small. when it comes to gun ownership@servant_of_the_anime_avatars @mur2501
(DIR) Post #A36oxZPqrorJin73xI by trinsec@qoto.org
2021-01-10T22:58:14Z
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@freemo The problem is that I'll just have to believe you on your word that guns would've improved our numbers, and that removing guns would've made American numbers look even worse.From the examples you've given, it sounds like we'd better put more effort in mental health access and all that other stuff instead. That sounds much more fruitful in the long term.Like you said before, we obviously disagree. I am actually getting weary and would like to head to bed soon since it's near midnight here.Agree to disagree?@servant_of_the_anime_avatars @mur2501
(DIR) Post #A36vPpBiQ6mgTFMBFI by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-11T00:10:30Z
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@trinsecDon’t need to take my word at all, like I said we have actual statistical tests for causation. My opinion is based on the data not my gut. From the examples you’ve given, it sounds like we’d better put more effort in mental health access and all that other stuff instead. That sounds much more fruitful in the long term.There is no instead, every item I listed. guns included, all improve the numbers. No need or reason to pick one over the other, adopting all the methods that work give you the best results@servant_of_the_anime_avatars @mur2501
(DIR) Post #A37BCpe70LBjORSvVA by Chauly55@qoto.org
2021-01-11T03:07:34Z
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@freemo if you ever want to "get the goat" of a Dutchman, ask him "Hey Fritz, where's my bicycle?" Apparently, when the Germans invaded in 1940, the first thing they did was steal all of the bicycles...
(DIR) Post #A37eEt5Y4cgVJtdC9A by hansw@hub.libranet.de
2021-01-11T08:32:54Z
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@Chauly55 Uhmm, that was at the end of the war when the Germans needed to go back afaik
(DIR) Post #A389VuFW6lgUQDtAlU by servant_of_the_anime_avatars@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-11T08:27:39.226210Z
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@trinsec @freemo @mur2501 I think this is very hard to argue. The US is an extremely diverse country with population, culture, ideology and religion varying widely.Some cherry picked data points against your argument, basically all taken fromhttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_homicide_ratehttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_by_state- Texas and California have a very similar homicide rate, despite quite different gun laws and (I suspect) quite different attitudes to guns- Both the state with the highest homicide rate (in 2018) Louisiana and the state with the lowest homicide rate South Dakota appear to have very similar gun laws
(DIR) Post #A389VufkXEfTjaA7ea by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-11T14:23:16Z
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@servant_of_the_anime_avatars Just as correlation isnt how statisticians test for causation with regards to showing guns have a negative effect we cant use it to show a positive effect either. So while your counter examples do hint at the fact that the correlation isnt implying causation it is mostly just bad statistical reasoning in the same way trinsec's assertion is.What you need to argue statistical causality formally is a causation test, the most common and simple of these being the Granger Causality Test.A causality test does not lot, and should not, compare absolute numbers in the way both of you are doing. What they look at is how a change in the theorized causative property (in this case the strictness of gun laws) is **followed by** a change in the observed property (in this case homicides, deaths, rape cases, or generally violent crimes)... If we find that a change in one often leads to a change in the other in the months that follow (how long into the future you look is important) then you can show causation.In fact I have previously discussed this very topic with @hansw and you can find my explanation of Granger Causality here as it applies to guns along with some examples of it being demonstrated in several major countries that had changes in gun policy. The evidence is strong that stricter gun policies lead to more homicide and violence. I've attached the images from that post here all of which show examples of Granger Causality demonstrating a causative link between stricter gun laws and more homicide/violence.https://qoto.org/@freemo/103766692274567523#Guns #GunLaws #GunRights@mur2501 @trinsec
(DIR) Post #A38FdoBh8209fDFhvE by servant_of_the_anime_avatars@kiwifarms.cc
2021-01-11T15:27:03.553091Z
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@freemo @hansw @mur2501 @trinsec I completely agree and that's why I called myself out for "cherry picking" the data. All I wanted to say is that even within the US the argument "laxer gun laws => more crime" is very hard to make convincingly and there clearly is a lot more going on.
(DIR) Post #A38FdoYNlg9KnZrpHk by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-11T15:31:53Z
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@servant_of_the_anime_avatars All I wanted to say is that even within the US the argument “laxer gun laws => more crime” is very hard to make convincingly and there clearly is a lot more going on.I disagree it is quite easy to make convincingly. You just cant use the method you used to make it.The method I linked to and described in my response makes a rather convincing case and is statistically sound in its methodology.The issue isnt that its a hard case to make, the issue is that most people have no clue how to make a sound statistical argument. But I find once it is explained to them how and why you can make such a case WRT guns it becomes apparent and somewhat undeniable to anyone who doesnt hold strong confirmation biases.@hansw @mur2501 @trinsec
(DIR) Post #A38bOJDyAIdaHSKZWq by hansw@qoto.org
2021-01-11T19:35:41Z
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@freemoI have given this subject a lot of thought. We might not agree, that is ok. What might be the cause of the different ways to handle this topic is probably the difference in how we grow up (not only at home or school). If you see commercials starting at a young age then you will see people finding it ok (not only with arms b.t.w.)If there is a lack of this like in the EU then you find that a normal situation. Besides having it as a sport or protection against wild animals I see no valid reason. We grew up without them and there are hardly people, born in the Netherlands, that feel they need to be prepared.People in the USA might be exposed to it from a young age and feel they need it.Numbers is one thing to concentrate on, education (in all its forms) is a different thing.@servant_of_the_anime_avatars @mur2501 @trinsec
(DIR) Post #A38bbKxb1RdjQesuBc by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-11T19:37:57Z
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@hanswI am not sure i ever once saw a commercial that had a firearm in it in the USA.. Unless maybe your talking about a commercial for a TV show or movie? In that case sure.But dont your tv shows and movies also include firearms occasionally and if so wouldnt your commercials for them do the same?As I said I pretty much grew up entierly removed from guns with almost no exposure to it. I didnt buy a gun until late into my thirties and even then my mom was very much against it.@servant_of_the_anime_avatars @mur2501 @trinsec
(DIR) Post #A38c0JiamF1iogmIM4 by hansw@qoto.org
2021-01-11T19:42:31Z
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@freemoIndeed in movies, etc.. But also tv shows.When I was young the only guns we did see on tv was in westerns or in a very occasional war movie.@servant_of_the_anime_avatars @mur2501 @trinsec
(DIR) Post #A38oCxhv7gmLlXGAKG by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-11T21:59:16Z
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@hanswdon’t you guys have american movies though?I dunno I canrt really think of any american TV shows with guns in them to be honest just cop shows and military ones and I never watch those and they dont really dominate the tv.Another point though, if it was due to how I grew up as you suggested, then why was I strongly against guns into my thirties, it was a big issue for me and I often spoke out against them and pushed to make them illegal. It wasnt till my 30s that I changed position, which happened after a friend of mine challenged me to actually do the statistics on them myself and the data seemed irrefutable.If your assumption was correct that it is cultural that pattern doesnt fit.@servant_of_the_anime_avatars @mur2501 @trinsec
(DIR) Post #A38oV1bbMvD14GuvyK by hansw@qoto.org
2021-01-11T22:02:32Z
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@freemoWe all know that one person has hardly any value to change the average.Sure, some movies got through but I have the idea (I wrote it as a possible outcome for the differences) that growing up in a place where weapons are not important might contribute to ones opinion.@servant_of_the_anime_avatars @mur2501 @trinsec
(DIR) Post #A38odYGdoflUgSBAFE by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-11T22:04:03Z
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@hanswIf we are talking about people in general then I tend toa gree, most of the difference about gun opinions int he EU and america is far more cultural than fact driven on both sides.If we are talking about what drives my opinion personally, that is a very different matter.@servant_of_the_anime_avatars @mur2501 @trinsec
(DIR) Post #A38omGdgj93icJ7C8e by hansw@hub.libranet.de
2021-01-11T22:05:37Z
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@🎓 Dr. Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 as I wrote before, numbers are not going to explain this imho. Not if the starting point differs.
(DIR) Post #A38opwts3fTeYWRL16 by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-11T22:06:18Z
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@hansw "explain this".. explain what exactly? or do you mean numbers wont change someones opinion nomatter how convincing?
(DIR) Post #A38pgOnxYR1w9ugXIG by hansw@hub.libranet.de
2021-01-11T22:15:48Z
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I mean that numbers explained here are not enough to convince me if I would take that as the only thing that would explain it. The numbers, I think I stated this before, are from just a few countries.What I am trying to explain is the fact that I think there is a different view between people brought up in the US and, in this case, the Netherlands. I also explained that being prepared as you stated is part of the code yellow described on the schneier article. We simply do not feel we need to be prepared like you stated. We do not need a spare piece in a car, a locker or a draw. Maybe we trust people a bit more then US people do, I do not know what was the trigger. We simply hate guns in general and do not feel the need to be prepared like you state it.
(DIR) Post #A3ATf122e91VSo7vlI by ArdanianRight@freespeechextremist.com
2021-01-12T17:18:32.946296Z
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@servant_of_the_anime_avatars @trinsec @freemo @mur2501 What does Louisiana have a lot of that South Dakota doesn't that could cause the discrepancy?
(DIR) Post #A3ATukUntYMGoM5ASO by histoire@neckbeard.xyz
2021-01-12T17:21:23.022633Z
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@ArdanianRight @servant_of_the_anime_avatars @freemo @mur2501 @trinsec New orleans
(DIR) Post #A3ArdypbjxwzFVLlq4 by hansw@qoto.org
2021-01-12T21:47:14Z
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@freemoThat is ok, a personal opinion might not be what we are searching for in trying to explain this 🙂 Not only your but also our opinion@servant_of_the_anime_avatars @mur2501 @trinsec
(DIR) Post #A3ArrTkw4gXmvObMGG by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-12T21:49:18Z
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@hanswAgreed. I generally find the vast majority of people don’t hold opinions on any issue based on well researched objective information. Most people just believe whatever allows them to fit into the groups they wish to fit into and little more.@servant_of_the_anime_avatars @mur2501 @trinsec