Post A363EEKthPsvSyfqSm by untappedgrowth@bitcoinhackers.org
(DIR) More posts by untappedgrowth@bitcoinhackers.org
(DIR) Post #A360cymAOB3qaIXRtg by pete@mastodon.petertodd.org
2021-01-10T13:34:22Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
https://consensus-health.torproject.org/Looks like the Tor consensus is broken at this moment. Unclear why. It'll take awhile for the network to fail. But if it stays broken it eventually will as the consensus becomes invalid. Reminder: Tor is centralized. Knocking out a half dozen directory authorities is enough to shut it down.
(DIR) Post #A361ca6mCbjK28YKjQ by bryancyan@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-10T13:45:29Z
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@pete The Tor protocol can be decentralized by implementing it with JavaScript in the browser. node-Tor project on GitHub does that but the project is not getting attention.I want to see this get builthttp://www.peersm.com/Convergence-2020.pdf
(DIR) Post #A361zzpyhz2uUVrQ8W by pete@mastodon.petertodd.org
2021-01-10T13:49:44Z
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@bryancyan That's incorrect. Tor requires a consensus over all Tor nodes. That consensus is what's centralized. There's no good way around it - arguably the very fact the consensus is centralized part of the argument as to why Tor is secure in the first place.
(DIR) Post #A362A0RfIraLGwGGxM by kexkey@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-10T13:51:32Z
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@pete I2P might gain popularity from this, like mastodon did with the Twitter censorship events... I’m not even sure I2P is still being developed actually, I looked at it a while back. I remember it seemed to have a more distributed architecture than Tor.
(DIR) Post #A362GUVoQblQGDIGES by pete@mastodon.petertodd.org
2021-01-10T13:52:42Z
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https://bitcoinhackers.org/@emzy/105531731278274913
(DIR) Post #A362MJ51qRq6XgXT6W by pete@mastodon.petertodd.org
2021-01-10T13:53:46Z
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@kexkey ...which is kinda scary: what stops MITM attacks? Tor isn't great against that. But at least humans run it, and node operators are a good mix of anonymous and not.
(DIR) Post #A362QA9uxIlA23fFPE by pete@mastodon.petertodd.org
2021-01-10T13:54:28Z
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@kexkey sorry, specifically, sybil attacks.
(DIR) Post #A363EEKthPsvSyfqSm by untappedgrowth@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-10T14:03:30Z
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@pete @kexkey we need to bridge meat space and cyber space with distributed trust networks somehow.Like if we had communities that could determine who was a trusted actor couldn't each community maintain consensus for that community, then those communities form branches to each other based on a different trust model?That way if one community goes down you can likely still have connections to route around it through trusted parties?
(DIR) Post #A363bWpJ7OD3TS0WLA by bryancyan@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-10T14:07:43Z
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@pete Bitcoin’s consensus is not centralized.
(DIR) Post #A363hUQGy621kx8kgi by pete@mastodon.petertodd.org
2021-01-10T14:08:48Z
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@bryancyan Tor needs to come to consensus over bandwidth and other things that don't translate well into decentralized consensus schemes.
(DIR) Post #A363udtt2eykuoGPUu by pete@mastodon.petertodd.org
2021-01-10T14:11:11Z
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@untappedgrowth @kexkey well, now you're getting into very tricky UI/UX problems. :)
(DIR) Post #A3647g1yQrXzHsGHHU by untappedgrowth@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-10T14:13:31Z
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@pete @kexkey humans are used to social congregating into tribes. That is a completely solvable problem
(DIR) Post #A364Jo6aEo3lnwCZs0 by bryancyan@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-10T14:15:43Z
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@pete So just trust the Tor Project? They’re good people, they would never censor anything. But they can be blocked. That’s why Tor doesn’t work in China, where it is needed most. But everywhere is starting to look like China.
(DIR) Post #A364U6Cfnu1GpZxRwG by pete@mastodon.petertodd.org
2021-01-10T14:17:35Z
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@bryancyan The reason why China manages to block Tor has nothing to do with the consensus mechanism. Any consensus mechanism can be blocked, by simply looking at what nodes are in the consensus and blocking them. The actual problem for Tor re: blocking is china has basically moved to a whitelist model.
(DIR) Post #A364a5TVQQvSJDgdBQ by pete@mastodon.petertodd.org
2021-01-10T14:18:40Z
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@untappedgrowth @kexkey Implementing tribes well is a very tricky UI/UX problem!
(DIR) Post #A364kxe6sDt3DHpcHo by pete@mastodon.petertodd.org
2021-01-10T14:20:38Z
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@bryancyan Tor has bridge nodes that specifically are _not_ part of the consensus. Those get blocked via what's essentially a white lost of allowed encrypted traffic.
(DIR) Post #A3653WWRwUfCaq6Fe4 by untappedgrowth@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-10T14:23:58Z
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@pete @kexkey *this* I can help with.What are the current problems that pop up in attempts to address this?
(DIR) Post #A365FhJReNrvX8p1hA by pete@mastodon.petertodd.org
2021-01-10T14:26:11Z
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@untappedgrowth @kexkey Not clear really. Hardly anyone has tried lately. Keybase is probably your best example.
(DIR) Post #A365ViQXH6Z1cgmD6u by bryancyan@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-10T14:29:04Z
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@pete Tor bridges are not detectable hence block everything that’s not whitelisted, is what I think you are saying. That sounds infeasible for a free-flowing internet, but I guess the Chinese Communist Party does not care about that.
(DIR) Post #A365dH5qmhgnALhoTw by pete@mastodon.petertodd.org
2021-01-10T14:30:27Z
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@bryancyan Exactly. I've actually seen that first hand myself when I visited China a few years back. Even a SSH tunnel could get detected and blocked if it started passing too much traffic.
(DIR) Post #A366211HgPVqYPMpKy by bryancyan@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-10T14:34:55Z
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@pete @untappedgrowth @kexkey We have federations, right? Just use that?
(DIR) Post #A366Lug0yZiifmuGVU by untappedgrowth@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-10T14:38:30Z
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@pete @kexkey yeah, that nowhere near resembles a mimicry of the organic into the digital space.We as humans are used to delegating trust, even in groups. This is doable. It just gets into authority structure & culture creation through incentives... which get screwed up massively by the majority of organizations and businesses once they pass a certain size, but it can be done well.This is kind of like the digital version of the city state model we all foresee in Bitcoin future. @robingrant
(DIR) Post #A366b4vR9aaWnpLr3A by pete@mastodon.petertodd.org
2021-01-10T14:41:15Z
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@bryancyan @untappedgrowth @kexkey But notice how most federations are a fairly simple trusted admin + mods model? If that's enough, fine. But it's not exactly what the Web of Trust was supposed to be.
(DIR) Post #A366kUliRFoZYnIKye by pete@mastodon.petertodd.org
2021-01-10T14:42:57Z
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@untappedgrowth @kexkey @robingrant one of the problems of delegating trust is moderation is a lot of work...
(DIR) Post #A366tJ9gzBPw9GiC9Y by pete@mastodon.petertodd.org
2021-01-10T14:44:33Z
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@untappedgrowth @kexkey @robingrant anyway, I think a good first start would be to just make a usable UI for the PGP web of trust. Keep it simple: a tool to let you go from roots to trust to keys you want to be use to verify.
(DIR) Post #A366ukBXyUmcGnGQts by samouraidev@mastodon.social
2021-01-10T14:44:43Z
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@pete https://darknetdaily.com/?p=1030
(DIR) Post #A366zXink2r73w6gT2 by robingrant@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-10T14:45:36Z
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@pete @untappedgrowth @kexkey could that be reduced via barriers to entry and/or smart contracts? for example, rules which take away your deposit if you create spam (with some formal machine definition of spam).
(DIR) Post #A367Avn8afoitpZ7FA by robingrant@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-10T14:47:44Z
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@pete @untappedgrowth @kexkeyI guess there's an evolution of trust levels - trust identity, trust to pay, trust not to tell etc. which can happen over time.
(DIR) Post #A367BicB4DAIK1oYSm by pete@mastodon.petertodd.org
2021-01-10T14:47:53Z
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@robingrant @untappedgrowth @kexkey if you could define spam formally in a smart contract algorithm why not use just that algorithm to block the spam to begin with?
(DIR) Post #A367IhbREAr3D7nZvU by untappedgrowth@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-10T14:49:08Z
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@pete @kexkey @robingrant 100% agreeCorrect me if I'm wrong in boiling it down this far but-web 1.0 essentially treated all academic nodes joining as trustedWeb 2.0 uses centralized authorities to say who isn't trustedBut *neither* of these matches how we as humans network irl.The magic of Bitcoin is POW ostracizing the untrusted outcomes so that moderation happens organically. This can be done socially too where bad actors simply get eliminated and everything just carries on.1/2
(DIR) Post #A367Iredr7MKNxNHJA by robingrant@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-10T14:49:10Z
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@pete @untappedgrowth @kexkey true. I guess that is already done in some networks. enough down votes and you're deleted, then enough over time and you're out?
(DIR) Post #A367JE6OOcd40OWkcK by pete@mastodon.petertodd.org
2021-01-10T14:49:14Z
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@robingrant @untappedgrowth @kexkey well, again, I'd advise you to keep it really simple: does or does not this key belong to who it says it does?
(DIR) Post #A367QJL7K0FmHBnD16 by pete@mastodon.petertodd.org
2021-01-10T14:50:31Z
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@untappedgrowth @kexkey @robingrant Human networks don't operate at web scale. When they do, they practically always just use central authorities for trust. That's what politicians, media, and lately, social networking is.
(DIR) Post #A367fEg0wNaW9rgSVk by pete@mastodon.petertodd.org
2021-01-10T14:53:13Z
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@robingrant @untappedgrowth @kexkey Voting algorithms like reddit's always have to put significant effort into weeding out bots.
(DIR) Post #A367hHal4ZqRmLCYS0 by untappedgrowth@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-10T14:51:56Z
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@pete @kexkey @robingrant We just need a Bitcoin level breakthrough of pulling together a unique composite of how to align incentives in order to create an "inevitable game" where trust breakers are ostracized naturally, just like bad blocks are. Possible 😜2/2
(DIR) Post #A367hHrm3JSKd7A8yO by pete@mastodon.petertodd.org
2021-01-10T14:53:35Z
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@untappedgrowth @kexkey @robingrant "just" :)
(DIR) Post #A367yKo6N7ZMfoZdUu by untappedgrowth@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-10T14:56:39Z
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@pete @robingrant @kexkey yeah, it has to be human. Just like we do socially where we "ignore" the village idiot who is just clamoring loudly in the street.The breakthrough is we need the ostracisms to be effortless, just like how bitcoin ignores bad blocks, but prohibitively expensive for those trying to disrupt
(DIR) Post #A3683ddVnDaIWF9KAS by pete@mastodon.petertodd.org
2021-01-10T14:57:37Z
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@untappedgrowth @robingrant @kexkey Well, like I said, try doing something relatively simple like PGP web-of-trust first and see how far we get.
(DIR) Post #A368FWU6D0y3oTPiJk by untappedgrowth@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-10T14:59:46Z
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@pete @kexkey @robingrant exactly 😂 you got my humorI see the problem. Still believe it is solvable though.(Same problems exist in governance of human organizations, so I understand I am standing against millennia of human precedent. Rofl)
(DIR) Post #A368fm8mcdFJtnxg7E by untappedgrowth@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-10T15:04:30Z
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@pete @kexkey @robingrant No way away from that. Humans always work that way whether it is patriarchal family groups, tribe chiefs and medicine men, or warlord groups & kings. Consensual relationship with authority that enable scaled collaboration but also respects personal sovereignty and freedom of the individual is like THE problem of humanity
(DIR) Post #A368zWEnSVKsMuBlQG by untappedgrowth@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-10T15:08:04Z
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@pete @robingrant @kexkey Satoshi model-Game theory the system -> THEN build it 😛Stepping all the way back to defining the problems clearly is what enables you to have the intuitional type flashes of brilliance on novel ways to address massive issues with simplicity
(DIR) Post #A369PSdtRqr8kOIVmq by untappedgrowth@bitcoinhackers.org
2021-01-10T15:12:45Z
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@pete @robingrant @kexkey Thank you for your time Peter 🙏 this was very helpful
(DIR) Post #A36F2c4ynNn750SIrY by WClayFerguson@noagendasocial.com
2021-01-10T16:15:51Z
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@pete What do you think is the best existing decentralized system for data storage right now? IPFS? Some specific public chain. Needs to be open source of course.
(DIR) Post #A36FPq09CRY4v1GmFk by pete@mastodon.petertodd.org
2021-01-10T16:20:04Z
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@WClayFerguson I'm not sure to be honest. I haven't looked into that recently. Though remember that this systems are often more high latency data transmission than storage per-se.
(DIR) Post #A36FvZkb9gShmh89FA by WClayFerguson@noagendasocial.com
2021-01-10T16:25:48Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@pete I'm just thinking Fediverse servers will be targeted for censorship soon, so we need a way to have communities that 1) Aren't susceptible to DNS targeting and 2) Where each user has (or at least can have) the whole server DB stored locally.Sort of a hybrid between a blockchain and a federated system.
(DIR) Post #A36JNpSUe96GTMpGIy by pete@mastodon.petertodd.org
2021-01-10T17:04:32Z
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@WClayFerguson well, let's solve the problem of getting people here first. Once we're here the tech can be improved. It also buys time for that to happen.
(DIR) Post #A36K6ACasqn1Y7WsgC by JohnGritt@freespeechextremist.com
2021-01-10T17:12:33.478539Z
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@WClayFerguson @pete It exists already and for awhile, Clay.https://scuttlebutt.nz/docs/The blockchain literally is a tracking mechanism. It came into existence to provide provenance. That is why bitcoin and all derivatives never can be money and always only will be collectibles, like artworks. Money, which is only ever coined metal by weight and fineness, has a special property of bearer negotiability, i.e., ownership goes with the possession.Of course, cash, which is bank credits in circulation, has this quality too. But the difference between cash and money is this: cash requires bankers. Money requires no authority.