Post A31sdWKvdbIe7E24Om by bonifartius@qoto.org
(DIR) More posts by bonifartius@qoto.org
(DIR) Post #A2xvUghKCDlBdZxHX6 by cwebber@octodon.social
2021-01-06T15:54:47Z
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Well written piece by @distel about a serious loss to the fediverse: the departure of playvicious.social, the most prominent black-oriented member of the fediverse: http://weirderearth.de/goodbyepv.htmlI think there are a few things here to reflect on... critically indeed the way that the fediverse at large participates in racism systemic in our society. Much of this is social and the need for group prioritization of values. And I agree with all that analysis in the post.Also...
(DIR) Post #A2xvUh6UgdtQtdjNlQ by cwebber@octodon.social
2021-01-06T15:57:13Z
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I think it's clear to me that the kinds of border-oriented tooling of allow/deny lists is already struggling to keep up, especially in meeting the needs of those most vulnerable. As the fediverse grows, the problem will grow worse.On this category is a lot of the research I'm doing... but admittedly at this time it's probably frustrating to hear me say any of that, because what is really needed is code in peoples' hands. I hope I can demonstrate something better...
(DIR) Post #A2xvUhvXcqj5Rxc9Ka by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-06T15:58:57Z
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@cwebber to me the answer is simple, hierarchical block/mute lists with both whitelisting and black listing capability. Mastodon and the fediverse almost got it right by allowing users to rely on their local instance to moderate, but the lack of override ability from the users or the ability for multiple inheretence is the killer.
(DIR) Post #A2xyVbPddEarOhoIQC by cathal@octodon.social
2021-01-06T16:30:13Z
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@cwebber I think the Fediverse suffers from not even fully exploring allow/block lists, because the lead dev of Mastodon won't consider implementing allowlist-based federation.TBH this is the main thing putting me off running a server of any scale: that my server will automatically federate with anyone I haven't explicitly blocklisted. How can I ensure I'm protecting my users, and not enabling abusers, without constant labour?Federation should be built on human relations of trust and consent.
(DIR) Post #A2xyVbeWjsVG8smBd2 by stunder@mastodon.sdf.org
2021-01-06T16:32:54Z
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@cathal @cwebber I've been playing with the idea of an outbound block for all other IPs. It becomes tedious when I need to patch or update but at least then I would prevent it from happening
(DIR) Post #A2y0AysdNsu40ZfRuS by cwebber@octodon.social
2021-01-06T16:46:21Z
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@cathal That's the inevitable next thing to ask for when you have two assumptions:1. communities are on the instance level2. let's use allow/deny lists!*But!* It's also on the path towards defederation and eventual consolidation in somewhere around 1-5 "trusted" servers, from a logical progression standpoint. I've walked through the steps in the "Anti-solutions" section of https://gitlab.com/spritely/ocappub/blob/master/README.orgThis is why it's the wrong *paradigm*. A more robust alternative is also laid out in OcapPub.
(DIR) Post #A2y0W1m1p01l3zc6IC by cwebber@octodon.social
2021-01-06T16:49:11Z
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@cathal To replay how it happens, deny-lists fail at scale. So *you*, as the administrator of your own small server, say "well *I'm* only going to federate with the small, 10 or so, set of servers I trust"...Except, you're not "very big", and there's a lot of these small servers. It's a lot of work to sort through them.So everyone starts converging on just a few large servers, and the overlap of accepted servers grows smaller and smaller...
(DIR) Post #A2y0W1yR4rx5gTQ0dE by cwebber@octodon.social
2021-01-06T16:50:57Z
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@cathal Next, you find out that *you* can't seem to talk to anyone anymore, on your small server. How did it happen? Why isn't anyone listening to you? You have good policies!Well everyone did the same thing as you, and people get sick of not being able to talk to their friends. *You're* getting sick of being read-only.So you shut down your server and either leave the fediverse or go to one of the few large instances.Inevitable progression of allow/deny lists + server-oriented communities.
(DIR) Post #A2yDnmTUjwswEOjxc8 by ourdiaspora@mastodon.org.uk
2021-01-06T19:24:11Z
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@freemo @cwebber "white...", "black..."; interesting choice of language per se.As a novice user of primarily diaspora and hubzilla, these protocols have been observed (personal observation, not definitive data) signficantly less abusive in content encountered, compared to mastodon and pleroma.
(DIR) Post #A2yEABsKyv4nNg2ug4 by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-06T19:28:06Z
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@ourdiaspora Interesting how? They are standard terms that have been in use a long time. White is a color that includes all other colors, therefore whitelist is intended as a list that includes "all the things in the set".. black is a color that excludes all colors, therefore blacklist is a term taht means "things excluded from the set"I suppose the terms are rather interesting and cool when you look into them, I never thought about that.I am not sure the protocols will dictate the abusiveness of the content in the network itself.However it will, and the intended goal should be, to give you more control over the content you are exposed to.@cwebber
(DIR) Post #A2yEjDcqSzFSwbVD4y by ourdiaspora@mastodon.org.uk
2021-01-06T19:34:37Z
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@freemo @cwebber You are more intelligent to _really_ believe that only, so shall say to more.https://developer-tech.com/news/2020/jun/15/github-replace-slavery-terms-master-whitelist/Without diversity of input, diversity in output may be more inefficient.
(DIR) Post #A2yF1dxvH2fHqg9ATw by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-06T19:37:49Z
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@ourdiaspora Huh, what does the link you shared have to do with the conversation. It doesnt talk about the history or usage of the terms whitelist at all. Just mentions some unrelated point about github not using it, which I am already aware of.@cwebber
(DIR) Post #A2yFUzyYWGaEVgRN9E by anonymoose@fedi.club
2021-01-06T19:43:19.638501Z
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@freemo @ourdiaspora @cwebber In ancient greek democracy a 'yes' vote was cast by placing a white stone in a large jar, and a 'no' vote was cast by placing a black stone instead. The idiom 'blackball' to mean to deny or negate something as a reference to greek voting was in frequent use in English going back centuries. In WWII British ports would 'blackball' (deny entry and services to) vessels believed to be carrying supplies bound for the german war effort. The list that was circulated to the portmasters of these 'blackballed' ships became knows as the 'black list'. The term 'whitelist' emerged simply as the opposite of 'blacklist'.
(DIR) Post #A2yFrTggjSa71wnmpk by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-06T19:47:08Z
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@anonymoose Correct, none of which has any racial bigotry implied by the term historically or today. The idea that blacklist and whitelist are racially insensitive is little more than rewriting history.There is plenty of actual racism to worry about, I dont see the need to invent racism that never existed and then try to rewrite the dictionary on those fictional grounds.@ourdiaspora @cwebber
(DIR) Post #A2yGDSFWl9j4wPZqEK by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-06T19:51:07Z
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@anonymoose Its usually the same people who think "whitelist" is racially insensitive that also think "white washing" is related to race. I have had so many ignorant people assume my use of the term whitewashing was based on white people removing blacks from historical significance when in reality that has nothing to do with what that term means either. Its literally a reference to a type of paint used to cover up walls.@ourdiaspora @cwebber
(DIR) Post #A2yMHbHfi7N5qQwLq4 by ourdiaspora@mastodon.org.uk
2021-01-06T20:58:36Z
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@freemo @anonymoose @cwebber > also think "white washing" is related to raceWow, incredible.Actually not only the literal, has a metaphorical significant in British English. Etymology always fascinating; the joy of a good dictionary! :)
(DIR) Post #A2yMgQPLHkxDLtMhxg by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-06T21:03:28Z
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@ourdiaspora I know right, can you beleive people are that absurd! Sure is used metaphorically though, just not in any way that is specific to race. @anonymoose @cwebber
(DIR) Post #A311By8qsW75JcMjse by eest9@chaos.social
2021-01-08T03:47:01Z
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@freemo How ironically that you defend racist coded words in a thread which started with a link that criticized such behavior in the fediverse. Words can hurt. Even when you aren't meaning racist things, they will build conceptual metaphors in readers brains which leads to codings of good and evil. It doesn't matter what you intended with the words, this words will evoke and manifest pictures in readers minds. @ourdiaspora @cwebber
(DIR) Post #A31me8g2UOXXIkonUe by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-08T12:38:38Z
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@eest9Except that it isnt racist coded words, never has been, not just in terms of intent but usage. There is literally nothing racist on any conceivable level about those words. Its astounding im even needing to defend literal colors of inanimate objects.@ourdiaspora @cwebber
(DIR) Post #A31p7zIS86a0nw99Zg by eest9@chaos.social
2021-01-08T13:06:39Z
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@freemo They lead to racist thinking because they manifest a conceptual metaphor that white equals good and black equals bad. I accept that this isn't the intention but this is basic psychology. @ourdiaspora @cwebber
(DIR) Post #A31pZLsaH9DOf85xM8 by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-08T13:11:27Z
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@eest9 how you figure, I associate white lists with bad things because they block by default, and therefore block the whole universe, those on the list would represent the privliged few, and elite... ergo i associate white lists with bad not good.Black lists the reverse they are inviting by nate, inclusive to everyone and only exclude a few people, therefore I associate black lists with good.Forthermore its complete nonsense to think everyone is going to associate the actual color white with race.I guess by this logic we cant make vanilla icecream white anymore because that would associate white with good, and we can no long depict poop as brown/black because people will associate that with race too..... The level of absurdity that "we cant have bad things that are the color black or good things that are the color white" are so monumentally beyond absurd I am astonished anyone is arguing this in earnest.@ourdiaspora @cwebber
(DIR) Post #A31puT4uhnrX4QvmoC by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-08T13:15:14Z
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@eest9 This just in, the actual colors white and black are now racist and shall be banned from all use in society and the words considered hate speech.Come on now, there is **real** racism out there to worry about and arguing this nonsense only allows the real racism to thrive by making those of us who are truly against racism look completely discredited by association.You think you are helping, but you are perpetuating racism with this stuff.@ourdiaspora @cwebber
(DIR) Post #A31r1wfhB1QcpkGTbM by eest9@chaos.social
2021-01-08T13:27:52Z
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@freemo What damage would be done if you changed this two words of your language? There where enough people that told you that these words hurt people either directly (BPoC readers) or indirectly (through establishing frames in readers). So why don't you want to change this words? What harm would be done if you would use allow list and block list? They are even more descriptive! @ourdiaspora @cwebber
(DIR) Post #A31rBakfWqjBkLBtNQ by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-08T13:29:34Z
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@eest9 I explained the damage, it would cause me, as someone against racism, to appear to be absurd, it would appear that i see racismw here none exists, and would cause my message of anti-racism to loose credibility and ultimately make people dismiss messages of legitimate racism..You basically just asked "what is the harm in crying wolf even if there is no wolf"... well we have a story for that.@ourdiaspora @cwebber
(DIR) Post #A31sAMiqIw99tpJdey by eest9@chaos.social
2021-01-08T13:40:28Z
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@freemo Do you see it as a problem that the black community left the fediverse? @ourdiaspora @cwebber
(DIR) Post #A31sXvf8Z0HcvPooDo by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-08T13:44:47Z
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@eest9 would depend on who and why, im not familiar with any sort of a movement resulting in max exodus of blacks from mastodon. All my black friends on mastodon are still here and havent mentioned anything about this, so I dont have the information needed about that to make a judgement call.@realcaseyrollins do you happen to know anything about what he is talking about and maybe add your perspective here, since I myself am unaware of the exodus he refers to.@ourdiaspora @cwebber
(DIR) Post #A31sdWKvdbIe7E24Om by bonifartius@qoto.org
2021-01-08T13:45:56Z
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@freemo @eest9 @ourdiaspora @cwebber how serious discussions about how to fix problems are "derailed" by discussions about which words are evil.i have another hot "basic psychology" take: people like to come to their own conclusions and then act accordingly. getting told which words are now evil and verboten because of dubious reasons doesn't work. that's why no sane person uses some other words anymore, insight.
(DIR) Post #A31sfPWfvjDPZXQbS4 by eest9@chaos.social
2021-01-08T13:46:08Z
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@freemo Sorry but u are aware. The first post in this thread did reference it: http://weirderearth.de/goodbyepv.html @realcaseyrollins @ourdiaspora @cwebber
(DIR) Post #A31t0UPmwrIqofG3fs by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-08T13:49:56Z
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@eest9 Oh you meant a single instance choosing to shut down.. many of whose members had alts or moved to other instances. Very different than a max exodus of the black community but I see what you are refering to now.So you are asking me if I feel it is bad that a blasck-oriented instance shut down (please be more precise with your words)... I think its ashame they felt they had to shut down due to anti-black sentiment, so yes I agree that server going down was a loss to the community.@realcaseyrollins @ourdiaspora @cwebber
(DIR) Post #A31tSKZj7qoOPJBMnI by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-08T13:55:02Z
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@eest9 Also lets be clear here, they had about a dozen active users a week. Most of those users moved on to other servers.. so hardly the mass exodus or "loosing the black community" that you suggest. While I do agree that it is sad they felt there was anti-black sentiment, it is also the opinion of a very small number of people. That doesnt make it any less true, nor am I saying they are wrong. But it does mean you dont get to imply that there is a mass exodus of black people in order to win an argument that they themselves never voices as a concern in the first place.Please dont use random black people who never said what you are saying to try to win an argument. That is not being helpful.@realcaseyrollins @ourdiaspora @cwebber
(DIR) Post #A31tsevS5Ntb3HtlEe by eest9@chaos.social
2021-01-08T13:59:51Z
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@freemo Instances are synonym to communities. People on single instances are interconnected as much as people in cities. Therfore black people without their own instance arn't a community in the fediverse anymore. They are just black people here. A community/instance can give themselves rules. A couple of black people on different instances can't. And this will be my last take in this discussion with you goodby! @realcaseyrollins @ourdiaspora @cwebber
(DIR) Post #A31u38cSXYvE2c0lsG by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-08T14:01:43Z
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@eest9 Right, and as I said it is sad the owner of the instance no longer wanted to run that instance, and a loss, as I already stated... Funny enough the instance used a blacklist and as far as I know no one on taht instance once complained about that word or as a reason for them leaving. They used the term themselves in fact.@realcaseyrollins @ourdiaspora @cwebber
(DIR) Post #A326wlHNhgqbJuRTX6 by realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live
2021-01-08T16:26:18.451762Z
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@freemo @eest9 @ourdiaspora @cwebber I think its ashame they felt they had to shut down due to anti-black sentimentNah it was due to black fragility @Are0h repeatedly insinuated that I’m an Oreo because I have followers (the #Fediverse is so racist, no one black could POSSIBLY succeed here! Right?)There are certain people who think that racism is perpetual, read racism into literally everything, and decide to be racist against all non blacks. @Are0h is one of the people. What he says isn’t based off of reality, but off an ideology that is black supremacist-adjacent
(DIR) Post #A327Sbzblb8nmiJfWq by Locksmith@gleasonator.com
2021-01-08T16:28:46.499866Z
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@eest9 @freemo @realcaseyrollins @ourdiaspora @cwebber wow, such cry-bullying! i remember seeing some posts from playvicious social, they were massively racist. if they felt the need to shut down due to bullying, they need thicker skin because big tech ain’t here to shield them.
(DIR) Post #A327aYPUyCBkzUDIBs by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-08T16:33:24Z
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@realcaseyrollins Oh shit I totally forgot about AreOh. I see i have him muted and checking my log he was attacking me for being Native American and not "looking" native american. a long time ago (a year or more). Literally ridiculing me for daring to talk about my heritage and not looking red enough or whatever nonsense.That plus now hearing your experiences sounds like he was more racist towards minorities than most of the people in the fediverse.Oh the irony of them crying over shutting down due to racial insensativity when they were one of the biggest offenders of such towards other minorities to begin with.I'm glad you mentioned his name or else I would have completely forgotten.@eest9 I take back what I said earlier. I am not sad over that particular server of users getting shut down. There is no place for that sort of racism in the community. But hey, you keep fighting that battle to end the use of the term "whitelist" while supporting these racist types as your sacrificial lamb.... manyour priorities are backwards.@ourdiaspora @cwebber @Are0h
(DIR) Post #A328EVLZmJqD4cQdTE by Locksmith@gleasonator.com
2021-01-08T16:36:56.641374Z
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@eest9 @cwebber @freemo @ourdiaspora @realcaseyrollins this blog post is madness! people over here on the fedi so that they can just simply speak and not get banned by ever-changing policies, and they want to change the entire fediverse? what kind of imperialist shit is that?
(DIR) Post #A328EcF68nooSYS3qS by Locksmith@gleasonator.com
2021-01-08T16:40:15.482035Z
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@cwebber @eest9 @freemo @ourdiaspora @realcaseyrollins If i wanted to bend over backwards so i don’t offend anyone, i’d be on twitter.
(DIR) Post #A328Eh3wDirXPOGie0 by realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live
2021-01-08T16:40:42.672016Z
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@Locksmith @cwebber @eest9 @freemo @ourdiaspora
(DIR) Post #A328bg7lsHdf9w1OxU by freemo@qoto.org
2021-01-08T16:44:31Z
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@realcaseyrollins Apparently having white friends automatically makes you a token.. no one could possibly be white and legitimately like you without regard to the color of your skin...@eest9 @Locksmith @ourdiaspora @cwebber
(DIR) Post #A329R1mb6mZx6IbS0O by realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live
2021-01-08T16:54:13.314009Z
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@freemo @eest9 @Locksmith @ourdiaspora @cwebber ouch 😂
(DIR) Post #A32DCQT7qCz9QRSefY by iron_bug@friendica.ironbug.org
2021-01-06T16:59:00Z
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this seems absolutely dumb to me. what's the difference between black, white or green users on the network? never could get the point.
(DIR) Post #A32DCQwY4oWMthE9Wy by distel@weirder.earth
2021-01-06T17:08:37Z
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@iron_bug @cwebber it’s a power difference because of the social structures we all move in. There is a lot of good reading on it available. You can google “racism 101”
(DIR) Post #A32DCREH0uhPmfWJ9s by alex@friends.deko.cloud
2021-01-06T19:18:30Z
6 likes, 3 repeats
Fediverse is probably the most liberal and democratic medium just by its nature. So reading things like:> The Fediverse is anti-Black.... is kind of strange. It is not. It merely reflects society. Also it is large and I am pretty sure the substantial part of Fediverse doesn't care about Black or White. It is rather about games, anime, computers, whatever. Most of it is race agnostic. Do you know if I am person of color? I don't know that about you either nor I care. Also you can't fix social problems with technical solutions. Post character limits or more extensive blocking won't stop some people from disliking some other people and showing it when they encounter each other. They however can block each other and carry on.
(DIR) Post #A32DIgrJocsdzplSFM by amerika@freespeechextremist.com
2021-01-08T17:37:32.610317Z
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@alex @iron_bug @distel @cwebber The only thing stupider than racism is diversity.
(DIR) Post #A32DNzNEPDIcrnDZWi by jeff@pl.i2p.rocks
2021-01-08T17:38:29.443176Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@alex @iron_bug @distel @cwebber i am pretty sure play vicious left because everyone could see how racist he was and called it out as you should.
(DIR) Post #A32eolqHWLtRTrnieu by a7@pleroma.mouse.services
2021-01-08T22:45:50.174752Z
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@amerika @alex @cwebber @distel @iron_bug the only thing stupider than stupid is stupider the only thing stupider than stupider is stupidest.
(DIR) Post #A32gWgYcdAlPmn2qMS by coyote@lain.sh
2021-01-08T23:04:58.710106Z
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@jeff @alex @cwebber @distel @iron_bug came here to say this, he made every single discussion about race, no matter if it was pleroma whiteys and mastodon poc, or if it was some news or drama related to fedi or the world, he was openly hostile to criticism and often called others racist, apologists, nazis, and many of the people he most defamed were people just trying to explain their pov genuinely. I just wish he didn't play the race card turning every interaction with him into a question of morality on vaguely defined and ridiculous premises. If he didn't make everything about race he wouldn't look like the racist.