Post A22I3TvyciPZPXGQj2 by freemo@qoto.org
(DIR) More posts by freemo@qoto.org
(DIR) Post #A22FomaMnOkZ0O1FhY by realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live
2020-12-09T20:13:38.747514Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
(DIR) Post #A22GQA6OKC5Uefp2nY by freemo@qoto.org
2020-12-09T20:20:10Z
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@realcaseyrollins The error I see here is in what is assumed to be masculine in the first place. It seems to mix up the idea of "masculinity" vs what a traditional male role is.. to me they are not at all the same. Being the sole financial provider in a home is not, for example, a show of masculinity.
(DIR) Post #A22GZr8HhvhoiaKXgm by realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live
2020-12-09T20:22:07.858525Z
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@freemo Why not?
(DIR) Post #A22GwVGJBiM9Y2sm7U by freemo@qoto.org
2020-12-09T20:26:03Z
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@realcaseyrollins Well to me "masculinity" is something that is not restricted to social norms of any one culture and time of place.. to define "masculinity" as strictly the qualities a traditional male had in the early 1900s seems like a narrow definition that isnt partcularly accurate outside of a minority of people who prefer that sort of life style and world view.Yet the term masculinity is much older than that and both today and historically we have used it to describe things other than humans or even living things, but is inspired by a more universal and intrinsic set of properties of males..For example physical strength is masculine because it doesn't depend on any world view, it is inherent and undeniable that the vast majority of men are physically stronger than the vast majority of women. So this would be an accurate term.
(DIR) Post #A22HcFwIY1gkBiQqsC by realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live
2020-12-09T20:33:47.370600Z
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@freemo Interesting. It looks like you’re confusing signs of masculinity with actual masculinity. For instance, strength is a sign of masculinity, yeah. But using that strength to beat up your wife isn’t masculine at all.
(DIR) Post #A22I3TvyciPZPXGQj2 by freemo@qoto.org
2020-12-09T20:38:14Z
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@realcaseyrollins That wording is confusing to me on two points..1) I didnt suggest beting up your wife was masculine. That wouldnt be masculine or feminine, as a wife could also beat up her husband and it is not a trait I'd say is any more intrinsic to one over the other. Its just that the man is likely to do more damage.2) saying something is "A sign of" is the same as saying it is a masculin trait.. if all your traits are signs of masculinity, then you are masculine. if you have some signs of masculinity and some that arent, then you are neither masculine or not.. a trait which is a sign of masculinity is a masculine trait, having a single masculine trait without consideration of your other traits does not dictate you are masculine though, but also doesnt suggest the trait is any less masculine.
(DIR) Post #A22JhtwZRJwfcENZFg by realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live
2020-12-09T20:57:11.558871Z
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@freemo Ah I see. I’m referring to the character traits of masculinity, not the physical ones. And I think @prageru is putting emphasis on these too. Someone who has tons of physically masculine traits but is passive, shirks from responsibility, and is a coward, is hardly masculine.
(DIR) Post #A22KfT2Gc1olXKRlLc by adidal@cdstm.ch
2020-12-09T21:07:57Z
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@realcaseyrollins nobody is looking to devaluate men or masculinity. its just that gender norms are absurd.like wtf do they even mean by "passive" ? and why tf is being effeminate associated with being "passive" ?
(DIR) Post #A22Kgd8oWdptAU40Y4 by freemo@qoto.org
2020-12-09T21:07:55Z
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@realcaseyrollins thats fair but from my perspective it doesnt appear you are refering to intrinsic character traits but rather societal ones.I used a physical example simply because it is less easily confused with societal norms from a specific time period, not because such traits are purely physical.Take for example the idea of a male being the "provider". we have countless examples of historic socities where women do the providing and males tend to take care of the home. so this is not at all intrinsic to males.Now if we want a masculine character trait in my view there are some of course. I would say logic over emotion, would be masculin where women tend to consider the emotional effects of their decisions more so than men tend to.The importance here to me is separating out a traditional male role as seen from the USA early 1900's (which is hardly a universally masculine description) vs those qualities that are intrinsically male.@prageru
(DIR) Post #A22LB2vvCC9RqeXLIO by realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live
2020-12-09T21:13:14.484693Z
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@freemo @prageru Take for example the idea of a male being the “provider”. we have countless examples of historic socities where women do the providing and males tend to take care of the home. so this is not at all intrinsic to males.Well, we have countless examples of men not beating up their wives. So, using this same logic, beating up women “is not at all intrinsic to males”.This discussion should center around what men should do IMHO, not what they actually do.
(DIR) Post #A22LDEvxY4zTe9bIEi by realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live
2020-12-09T21:14:05.552656Z
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@freemo @prageru Take for example the idea of a male being the “provider”. we have countless examples of historic socities where women do the providing and males tend to take care of the home. so this is not at all intrinsic to males.Well, we have countless examples of men not beating up their wives. So, using this same logic, not beating up women “is not at all intrinsic to males”, and thus not beating up women is not masculine.This discussion should center around what men should do IMHO, not what they actually do.
(DIR) Post #A22LSzLvFNgFxJFoCu by realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live
2020-12-09T21:16:17.315133Z
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@adidal nobody is looking to devaluate men or masculinity.LOLits just that gender norms are absurd.People who believe this are devaluating masculinitylike wtf do they even mean by “passive” ? Probably what the dictionary means TBHand why tf is being effeminate associated with being “passive” ?Likely because it is, at least in most cases
(DIR) Post #A22MFH6AZU3utSuVKC by adidal@cdstm.ch
2020-12-09T21:25:39Z
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@realcaseyrollins m8 its all societal norms. like. could you explain why crying is considered like a weakness and associated with femininity? and what could be the link between passivity (to what?) and femininity?
(DIR) Post #A22MKqwYjBxhVr4iNk by freemo@qoto.org
2020-12-09T21:26:29Z
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@realcaseyrollins Well, we have countless examples of men not beating up their wives. So, using this same logic, not beating up women “is not at all intrinsic to males”, and thus not beating up women is not masculine.Exactly thats what I said when you first brought up the example, beating up your wife is not masculine, it is also not counter-masculin. It simply does not describe gender one way or the other. The fact that we have countless examples of men who dont beat up their wives, and examples of wives beating up men, is as you say (and as i said earlier) evidence of that.It is not about what men do, or dont do.. its about what is intrinsicly male (in other words, those characteristics that there is more commonly genetic expression for in men over women).While I might agree that what men should do is a more important thing to talk about, I dont that is an accurate way to describe what masculinity is, at that point you are simply describing what a healthy male in modern society would be, that isnt the same thing IMO.@prageru
(DIR) Post #A22MMFnLofI2sUR5bk by adidal@cdstm.ch
2020-12-09T21:26:54Z
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@realcaseyrollins and its actually okay to be a subby top or a power bottom
(DIR) Post #A22Mocg4KhdFxHYby4 by realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live
2020-12-09T21:32:02.900169Z
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@adidal explain why crying is considered like a weakness and associated with femininity?Things like crying, on its own, I don’t consider to be a form of masculinity.what could be the link between passivity (to what?) and femininity?The fact that passivity in men can cause them to abandon many of their responsibilities, whether they be personal ones, such as taking care of belongings and keeping track of finances, or interpersonal ones, such as defending others from harm and fighting for what’s right.
(DIR) Post #A22N4NIRHsFMsv12HI by amerika@freespeechextremist.com
2020-12-09T21:34:54.308419Z
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@realcaseyrollins Communism loves feminized men and masculined women.Prager is stil a neocon.
(DIR) Post #A22N7XXnduzfXJi4Qq by realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live
2020-12-09T21:33:28.401593Z
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@adidal By subby you mean submissive, right?If so I’d say in certain cases, perhaps. I think “power bottom” is a far more masculine role
(DIR) Post #A22NGnyDwLBv5UUHJI by realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live
2020-12-09T21:34:17.870283Z
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@freemo @prageru While I might agree that what men should do is a more important thing to talk about, I dont that is an accurate way to describe what masculinity is, at that point you are simply describing what a healthy male in modern society would be, that isnt the same thing IMO.Why does this not mirror masculinity in your eyes?
(DIR) Post #A22NsNF5lJXFCFI8Rs by realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live
2020-12-09T21:43:55.779513Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@amerika Yep. Passive, weak (both physically and morally) men cannon stop societal evils such as communism from wrecking a civilization. And women don’t stand a chance against jack-booted thugs unless they all stand together en masse and/or get a ridiculous amount of powerful weapons.
(DIR) Post #A22O3WFgbZagKBsroG by freemo@qoto.org
2020-12-09T21:45:42Z
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@realcaseyrollins Because it turns masculinity in a term that has no meaning outside of your own personal cultural framework. Moreover to the vast majority of people there is nothing that a man or a woman should or shouldnt do, only things people should or shouldnt do.. so by redefining masculinity in this way would make it a word that no longer exists to the vast majority of society outside of a few traditionalists. Those people do not and should not be able to claim ownership of a word that has been around for many hundreds of years and never limited to said group.Moreover it would completely eliminate the use of the word when applying to things other than humans, which is quite common in language, so it would completely rewrite the usage of the word and redefine it, something I am not a fan of. For example lace and frilly things is generally considered feminine as physical objects, if we decide to rewrite the dictionary and make "feminine" only mean "Character traits a woman should have" then it would make no sense in this context and contextes like it.@prageru
(DIR) Post #A22O7mqgqA3QxPE98i by adidal@cdstm.ch
2020-12-09T21:46:42Z
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@realcaseyrollins well once again it's more of a generic human flaw than a gender-specific flaw. Cause I'm pretty sure women are able to uphold these responsibilities and tasks as much as men. Also I'm pretty sure u also believe there is not natural "tendency" to subordination. Its taught. As much it was taught to women still a few decades ago.
(DIR) Post #A22OYeFOvc8Q6CatJg by realcaseyrollins@counter.fedi.live
2020-12-09T21:51:34.528538Z
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@adidal Yeah I’d agree. Although not everything natural is right.
(DIR) Post #A22Onw3T0DsDfiIkKW by adidal@cdstm.ch
2020-12-09T21:54:19Z
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@realcaseyrollins yup
(DIR) Post #A22QFTa0Z9D7Q7DcDw by curt@goneaway.social
2020-12-09T22:10:29Z
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@freemo If we define "masculinity" as those traits that are intrinsically male, without respect to one's cultural framework -- like logic or strength, to use your examples -- would you agree that a society with a deficiency in those traits, regardless of who possessed or exhibited them, may have a greater difficulty surviving in the long term?@realcaseyrollins
(DIR) Post #A22RnhDyRSThXQnGAS by freemo@qoto.org
2020-12-09T22:27:52Z
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@curt Hard to say without a bit more detail. Certainly if we still lived in pre-historic times then a defiency of traits evolved to deal durvive would reduce survivability. But as a species we live in a unique situation where our genetic evolution was shadowed by our intellectual evolution. Instead of passing down genes we learned to pass down ideas to much greater effect.As suchwe have an unusually high holdover of genetic traits from pre-historic times that do not improve survivability in modern times or even, in fact, reduce our survivability by the shear fact that our intellectual evolution happened to lap our genetic evolution.As such it is no longer a truism that everything that is a evolved trait is useful to our modern day environment or survivability.@realcaseyrollins
(DIR) Post #A22TEUAnAruKpidwzg by curt@goneaway.social
2020-12-09T22:43:56Z
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@freemo Within a society, the transmission of ideas is certainly important, but not every contemporary society transmits the same set of ideas. When those ideas clash, as they sometimes do, our intellectual evolution will help us, but it may only take us so far.@realcaseyrollins
(DIR) Post #A22TQ63wdsF3WyyeHY by freemo@qoto.org
2020-12-09T22:46:02Z
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@curt While that statement is true I do not see it as being at odds with my last one. Yes when cultures clash our intellect will only take us so far.. that does not imply however that all of our genetic traits will help us deal with that scenario any better.@realcaseyrollins
(DIR) Post #A22U4QUI7clySeWzR2 by curt@goneaway.social
2020-12-09T22:53:18Z
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@freemo I wasn't suggesting that all or even most of our genetic traits would help us survive that scenario, but that it may be more difficult to survive with a deficiency in some of them.@realcaseyrollins
(DIR) Post #A22UzA3fsVoe0r8PMu by freemo@qoto.org
2020-12-09T23:03:33Z
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@curt For sure, I wasnt trying to say that all genetic traits do not contribute to our survivability. Only that due to our intellectual evolution even when a trait is counter to our survivability we can still thrive due to our intellectual evolution. Due to this and going back to your original question genetic traits, such as masculine traits do not necessarily contribute to our survivability in modern times even though generally genetic traits in most species would not and could not exist without being vital to survivability.@realcaseyrollins
(DIR) Post #A22W57zSa0KVI5ZXqi by curt@goneaway.social
2020-12-09T23:15:52Z
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@freemo I think we're largely on the same page ... or at least on nearby pages from the same chapter.@realcaseyrollins
(DIR) Post #A22WkyJgw7p3S0zKWO by freemo@qoto.org
2020-12-09T23:23:24Z
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@curt indeed, would seem so.@realcaseyrollins