Post A0X2ZS2B9dteHhmS48 by sir@cmpwn.com
(DIR) More posts by sir@cmpwn.com
(DIR) Post #A0Wczn8KjV8yRZYhAe by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-10-25T16:09:13Z
11 likes, 10 repeats
Anyone who complains about Nvidia issues on Wayland (or Linux in general!) has a moral obligation to boycott their business. Wayland developers have told you exactly why Nvidia is not supported, and who is to blame. Harassing Wayland devs because they have a name and a face you can harass, rather than boycotting the faceless multi-billion dollar company who is responsible, makes that person an asshole and a shitty consumer.Nvidia is the one who deliberately engineers cryptographic solutions to subvert the free software driver. Nvidia is the one who refuses to collaborate with the community on standardization. Nvidia is the ONLY GRAPHICS VENDOR WHICH IS NOT UPSTREAM.If you spent $1,000 on a GPU which became a brick when you tried to use Wayland on it, that's on YOU. Not on Wayland. Letting your confirmation bias protect your ego from the possibility that you made a mistake and turning that feeling into harassing FOSS developers and spreading misinformation about their work is FUCKED UP and needs to stop.
(DIR) Post #A0WdHi36NK5zt4ehlI by penny@cute.science
2020-10-25T16:13:43.334916Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir I say this constantly. When you build or buy a computer you need to buy parts that work with the software you want to use.
(DIR) Post #A0WdKHA0np69MY6y6i by just@toot.juro.cloud
2020-10-25T16:13:21Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sir bUt It wOrKs wItH gNoMe!!!!111
(DIR) Post #A0WdNCHjNzot6u7Blg by penny@cute.science
2020-10-25T16:14:42.795591Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@sir I say this constantly. When you build or buy a computer you need to buy parts that work with the software you want to use. Yes, it all works with Windows and you don't have to think if you use Windows. No, that's not fair, but you still have to use supported hardware.
(DIR) Post #A0WtKporXYZs7cVWOe by kirjis@khat.komitea.fi
2020-10-25T19:01:49Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir Thanks for the warning, won't be trying Wayland then.
(DIR) Post #A0WtKqIdkqOfbyRIoK by brandon@fosstodon.org
2020-10-25T19:13:27Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@kirjis @sir wrong conclusion
(DIR) Post #A0X2ZPI1MHmnlyAYqG by khm@mastodon.sdf.org
2020-10-25T20:33:22Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir nvidia sends engineers to fix problems when we report them. AMD does too, but their scientific software stack is sickly and pallid in comparison to CUDA. Intel, when presented with engineering problems that they created, just discontinues the product (looking at you, Xeon Phi).If you need to do more with a GPU than draw computer programs on a monitor, there is no meaningful competition. Wayland is a casualty in this area which basically nobody in the scientific community even notices.
(DIR) Post #A0X2ZS2B9dteHhmS48 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-10-25T20:34:43Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@khm the scientific community also, as a matter of fact, is a rounding error. The intersection of "complains about Wayland" and "uses CUDA" is a minority of a minority of a minority.
(DIR) Post #A0X2ZUqEiV7szXDSMq by khm@mastodon.sdf.org
2020-10-25T20:41:05Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir It's a rounding error that is responsible for a shitload more of nvidia's income than any other linux-using market segment. We pay upwards of ten grand *per card* for GPGPU accelerators. nvidia just has no reason to give a shit about desktop linux, and no amount of boycotting is going to change that.I agree it's stupid to whine about not having access to software on a computer that was built with hardware that is explicitly and deliberately incompatible with that software.
(DIR) Post #A0X2ZXIfZl3gcIXBxo by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-10-25T20:42:33Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@khm I don't agree, but fine, so be it. So, you're saying that because Nvidia isn't going to change, the correct response is to harass free software developers? We're all suffering under the same boot. Go buy a goddamn AMD card for your GaMInG PC
(DIR) Post #A0X3vzMxzldRzsoYbI by khm@mastodon.sdf.org
2020-10-25T20:50:38Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying boycotting nvidia is not going to have any effect on their behavior.I don't really have a dog in this fight, since wayland doesn't really have an impact on my life. I personally only have one linux system and to be frank I have no idea which piece of software is drawing pictures on it. I don't think bitching at wayland devs will help anything, though.nvidia's immanent purchase of ARM is gonna drive this dumptruck straight into the mobile space, too
(DIR) Post #A0X3vzWXQBI8TZICWG by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-10-25T21:02:17Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@khm even in academia, boycotting Nvidia and CUDA and casting a vote of confidence in the competitors, and tolerating their limitations (how did we ever accomplish science before CUDA? Who knows!), *can* bring about change. If that's where their wallet is, then fucking hit them there. It doesn't mean that desktop users ought to be buying Nvidia GPUs. And CUDA is not the only place where it matters - sure, an academic might spend 10K on one GPU, but 10 gamers are spending 1K apiece, and guess which group outnumbers the other?
(DIR) Post #A0X3vznuNbBbLRQ4au by khm@mastodon.sdf.org
2020-10-25T21:11:25Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sir Boycotting CUDA won't do anything but slam the brakes on progress. There are *no alternatives* in this space. I rooted for it, but OpenCV may as well not exist. Science before CUDA relied on miles of Moore's Law runway, and it's gone now.We don't buy one card. We buy dozens, hundreds, or thousands at a time. Let's not conflate Windows gamers with Wayland users, but it doesn't matter: nvidia makes more off the data center than they do off their entire gaming portfolio as of this year.
(DIR) Post #A0X4oxgdx8LghoEOQ4 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-10-25T21:14:28Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@khm and how do you expect this situation to improve if you funnel cash from OpenCV to CUDA
(DIR) Post #A0X4oxqZMEHxCasJtI by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-10-25T21:16:02Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@khm ultimately this dumbassery is going to reap what you've sown when Nvidia continues to jack up the prices and squeeze every penny out of you, doubly so if their competitors disappear because academic fuckwits starved them of income for having a slightly inferior and substantially more open product
(DIR) Post #A0X4oy5SSsCLwlqD68 by khm@mastodon.sdf.org
2020-10-25T21:20:59Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sir No argument here. I find the whole concept of the current approach to HPC repellant -- all these accelerators suffer from the same architectural flaws and require software acrobatics to work around the PCIe bottleneck. But today, supercomputers are basically Beowulf clusters of commercial products, and nobody sees a profit in doing anything else. The scientists generally don't care what the engine looks like as long as the car gets them to their destination, so I can't innovate here.
(DIR) Post #A0X5D0aUoqMEeVp2LA by khm@mastodon.sdf.org
2020-10-25T21:25:54Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@sir This is, incidentally, exactly the same thing that cooked POWER. And in my opinion, AMD/OpenCV, and POWER both killed themselves with the same bad decision: the complete absence of a low-cost educational/exploration platform. You can buy an intel/nvidia CUDA-capable computer for under $500 at any electronics store. Good luck getting started on OpenCV or POWER for under $5,000. Universities buy Raspberry Pi and Dell, because they *can*, and so that's where the software runs.
(DIR) Post #A0XEEfB4I8YYPtnBdQ by lord@pleroma.lord.re
2020-10-25T22:07:35.991203Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@khmI agree with your idea (but i hate nvidia for its anti-foss atitude) but i don't understand.You think Amd killed themselves by not releasing a platform under 500$ ? They have plenty gpu at those prices (and under) for many years (since they began making them actually).@sir
(DIR) Post #A0XEEfSnEEjbIs5LGK by khm@mastodon.sdf.org
2020-10-25T23:07:22Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@lord @sir AMD (and ATI before it) never really saw the value prop in capturing GPGPU marketshare. OpenCV has nowhere *near* the support that CUDA does -- especially in the early days. They just threw a poorly-documented library over the fence and you were on your own, in a world where nvidia would put a programmer on a plane to your college to teach you how to accelerate your code. They also didn't made it clear which cards were well-suited to OpenCV, so it was easy to screw up buying them.
(DIR) Post #A0XWII225ShAxsReXw by kline@cmpwn.com
2020-10-25T22:18:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir theres something about spending big bux on graphics hardware that turns the purchase into an identity decision.somehow when people are forced to make a choice about these brands they get super defensive about their chosen cult.
(DIR) Post #A0XWINXlau3C3kKZCi by kline@cmpwn.com
2020-10-25T22:19:33Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir happens with cars and games consoles, too
(DIR) Post #A0XWITyDhSm9zWkmGm by pixelherodev@fosstodon.org
2020-10-26T02:30:03Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@kline @sir Sunk cost sort of deal, maybe? Post-facto justification? "I spent $XXX on it, obviously I wouldn't make a bad decision, therefore it is good!!"
(DIR) Post #A0XgbIquG9iCYMwhCS by khm@mastodon.sdf.org
2020-10-26T04:25:11Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@lord @sir Here's a snapshot of exactly what I'm talking about (I went poking at RELION and stumbled across this)https://github.com/3dem/relion/issues/219Long story short? The code we use to do structual biology work is written by people who develop on low-cost consumer HW. *We* run this stuff on cutting-edge high-dollar supercomputers, but it wouldn't exist without low-cost and easy-use code+hardware packages. We put millions into alternate arch (Xeon Phi) and few people even tried em. Intel gave up.