Post A01fBSYHdhjsFiL6B6 by feld@bikeshed.party
(DIR) More posts by feld@bikeshed.party
(DIR) Post #A01JUXhMX05qiyHR5c by shebang@pleroma.freespeech.host
2020-10-10T13:35:53.560244Z
5 likes, 3 repeats
Oh, Conservatives.Such a bunch of pricks. Soooo many times, “We should lower taxes, smaller government, public decency matters, nuclear families are good,” and I’m nodding my head, but then they invariably seem to add on, “and we should go back to harassing and beating lgbt people.”Fuck you, dudes. You can love aspects of the 1950’s American culture and still recognize that there were some pretty unfair and shitty aspects of it. You can want to bring back the best values and still reject the bad ones.But bluntly, you don’t have to conserve the bad ideas too.
(DIR) Post #A01K7Rsm5YOFyqAbkO by teslanaut@noagendasocial.com
2020-10-10T13:37:13Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@shebang Is that how mainstream Canadian Conservatives are?
(DIR) Post #A01K7S3PS0tgVp96K8 by shebang@pleroma.freespeech.host
2020-10-10T13:42:55.060161Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@teslanaut Generally not. This is more true of American conservatives. Generally speaking, LGBT people have it good in Canada across the board these days. Twenty years ago it was a different story, but they’ve solidly decided to leave the bad stuff in the past. Occasionally we get a few of the really religious types but they are rare and unpopular.
(DIR) Post #A01KNMjgzUaEeUVn7Y by sev@ap.sevvie.ltd
2020-10-10T13:45:48.223597Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@shebang Who exactly is beating and harassing “lgbt people”? It genuinely sounds like you’re complaining about a strawman, and I say that not to be rude but to further understand.
(DIR) Post #A01Kkr6kEe9XVcUlCC by shebang@pleroma.freespeech.host
2020-10-10T13:50:03.032561Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sev No one. I said“and we should go back to harassing and beating lgbt people.”
(DIR) Post #A01KtZtJcDraidNAsC by tuxcrafting@pleroma.tuxcrafting.port0.org
2020-10-10T13:51:37.424952Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@shebang jesus loves everyone except gays, duh
(DIR) Post #A01KxuT33Tgfh49UmG by mewmew@blob.cat
2020-10-10T13:52:22.324787Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@shebang :blobcatpeekaboo:
(DIR) Post #A01L0Ls68eRjGU28Ho by sev@ap.sevvie.ltd
2020-10-10T13:52:50.994004Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@shebang So you are strawmanning conservatives without reason.
(DIR) Post #A01LinWQhCgFlN5k8m by shebang@pleroma.freespeech.host
2020-10-10T14:00:52.982613Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sev My patience for your rudeness and obnoxious assumptions here is starting to wane quickly. I won’t put up with it much longer. Not the first time I’ve noticed this kind of behaviour from you. You automatically assume things without asking why I’m holding these opinions and just put in whatever your magically ability to read minds tells you.I am not, I’m basing this on my interactions with them and how they talk, mere moments ago there was some Con talking about how homosexuality shouldn’t be accepted in decent society even if it shouldn’t be illegal.
(DIR) Post #A01Mwd1qbe41E8wiH2 by Bishop@noagendasocial.com
2020-10-10T14:14:34Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@shebang yeah.This is why I don't associate with either party. If dudes want to fuck eachother in the ass, let them. It's not my problem unless they're trying to fuck me.I think age limits are the best solutionIf you're not old enough to vote or drink (I'd set it around 18/19), your gender identity, sexual preference, etc, is just best left at irrelevant/undefined - no one should be trying to sway you either way, and especially not make irreversible changes.
(DIR) Post #A01PkWqe3lZwRgd0jI by sev@ap.sevvie.ltd
2020-10-10T14:46:00.893110Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@shebang Tell yourself whatever you have to tell yourself, but you have given me no reason to understand why you are upset. You have rudely and callously lashed out at a group of people I genuinely don’t believe are the problem, and addressed this. Your response makes clear you have no room for reason or rationality in the discussion, so I will leave you with this:Get your shit together.
(DIR) Post #A01QG7AX4Otc4MzXZA by shebang@pleroma.freespeech.host
2020-10-10T14:51:43.494793Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sev Oh, grow up and get a clue sev. I don’t know what your problem is, and I’m past caring — but you need to work on your reading comprehension because once again you’ve failed to read what I wrote and just substituted your own biases. I had just said>mere moments ago there was some Con talking about how homosexuality shouldn’t be accepted in decent society even if it shouldn’t be illegal.and you just ignore that. Then you gaslight about how I have no room for reason. You are acting like an idiot, and you should stop doing that.
(DIR) Post #A01QHgJ3umM3KujDpQ by sev@ap.sevvie.ltd
2020-10-10T14:52:00.466696Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@shebang Like, seriously. Why the fuck do you think you have any room to talk down at me? You’re bitching about a “Con” as though I am supposed to have any sympathy for your condescension.You’re not a nice person. I’ve repeatedly tried to get past it but… no. You’re just as hateful as the next ideologue.
(DIR) Post #A01Qjz37p3OfZhlm8u by shebang@pleroma.freespeech.host
2020-10-10T14:57:06.942364Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sev I have no more time for your nonsense, and I don’t care what exactly imaginary the sources of your ire against me are. But you constantly twist my words, assign motive from your own imagination, and ignore anything that I reply to you with. Begone!
(DIR) Post #A01TvGzrjapWHmJtI0 by emilis@cdrom.tokyo
2020-10-10T15:16:50.846444Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@shebang >and we should go back to harassing and beating lgbt peopleI live in a place where that's the norm. I've also lived in a place that's fairly okay for lgbt ppl in my experience. The cringiest part about it is that the homophobes of the former are comically afraid of "gayness." Like you know those stereotypes of the homophobe being a closeted homosexual? it definitely feels that way with how insecure super mundane things make them.It got worse when I got drafted into the army, people were afraid of eating a banana wrong cause that'd be gay. Or using the first shower cause that's the "gay shower".
(DIR) Post #A01TvItChKgo9hDbBQ by shebang@pleroma.freespeech.host
2020-10-10T15:32:45.648252Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@emilis Well of course it still exists. I see it frequently here on Fedi, and take a peek at https://thedonald.win and you’ll see plenty of it. My biggest source of irritation on the whole subject is that I tend to lean towards social conservatism, yet those are the very people who most often reject me outright. I was in the closet for most of my life precisely because I lived somewhere that was behind in the times. Even when I was of adult age, our lgbt bar was hidden away in an alley and didn’t have any signage — people would come and get into fights with people having a smoke, getting some air, etc. They had to section off the entry area from the main room to prevent people from coming in and making trouble. But yeah, we had to be tucked away out of sight. Openly gay people were attacked, and trans people made damn sure to stay hidden — and this wasn’t from the Liberals (we are politically useful for them). This absolutely did improve in later years, but that history sticks with you, and even if its less common, its still plentiful and easy to find.
(DIR) Post #A01XEx2bwG2c33g8zQ by emilis@cdrom.tokyo
2020-10-10T16:09:17.101051Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@shebang I'm not saying that these people don't exist, even in uhhh, places that aren't here.With regards to your story, it's a similar story here at the moment. Hopefully we import enough of North American culture in the coming decades to change that, but I'm not gunna stick around to see that happen.Also, sorry, that link is staying blue. 2boomer4me :cate:
(DIR) Post #A01XZ4U1yhv6vD69M8 by shebang@pleroma.freespeech.host
2020-10-10T16:13:34.902786Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@emilis Haha, yes — let that one stay blue. I mean don’t get me wrong — there are a lot of conservatives that have indeed accepted lgbt people as just people. At least in Canada, I’d say its unusual for people to hate lgbt people these days whatever their political affiliation. I mean the worst I get (for the most part) is the odd dirty look from some older person or middle eastern immigrant. Where do you live?
(DIR) Post #A01aTeZ7DGSEx9aIfw by feld@bikeshed.party
2020-10-10T16:46:12.366827Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@shebang we didn't have low taxes in the 50s and nuclear families thrived because of the wealth redistribution but they will never admit it
(DIR) Post #A01at1u5ZwseZiUlFo by kick@blob.cat
2020-10-10T16:50:48.159202Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@feld @shebang In fact, we're in a period of historically low tax rates, and have been for about twenty years.
(DIR) Post #A01axkK4N7ADUqtdI0 by shebang@pleroma.freespeech.host
2020-10-10T16:51:38.652572Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@kick @feld https://taxfoundation.org/taxes-on-the-rich-1950s-not-high/
(DIR) Post #A01bSJX21uVZNoXF5M by happymoomoo@fedi.absturztau.be
2020-10-10T16:57:10.984603Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@shebang @kick @feld I once saw a graph (that I can't find anymore) showing that -- adjusting for inflation -- since the 70's (IIRC) despite the average workers' wages rising about 15%, the price of food increased by about 200% and CEO salaries increased by over 900%. There were other figures but I can't remember.
(DIR) Post #A01bXsNjsx4GutqC00 by amerika@freespeechextremist.com
2020-10-10T16:58:11.492507Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@kick @feld @shebang rates alone do not tell the full story, since deductions are a big part of the process
(DIR) Post #A01bde77qWUoP2oyo4 by kick@blob.cat
2020-10-10T16:59:13.476940Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@shebang @feld The headline of that article and the actual content don't agree with one another, and even then it still doesn't align with reality; it's a hit piece by the same foundation that pushed supply-side economics (economic policy that's universally agreed to be failed) during the 1980s, and has repeatedly pushed drivel openly since Bush I.
(DIR) Post #A01bfkVl23RWp5LUFU by shebang@pleroma.freespeech.host
2020-10-10T16:59:36.789822Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@kick @feld ok how is this onehttps://checkyourfact.com/2019/01/09/fact-check-90-percent-taxes-eisenhower-1950s/
(DIR) Post #A01blM5CliyknVbCAy by kick@blob.cat
2020-10-10T17:00:37.129192Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@amerika @feld @shebang Correct! Deductions during the 1950s were in a better state, since they allowed you to get out of (some amount of) taxation by investing in the country's infrastructure, rather than just moving things overseas.
(DIR) Post #A01bp6IhOBch0XhFQ0 by amerika@freespeechextremist.com
2020-10-10T17:01:18.385563Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@kick @feld @shebang the tax code has become a bit ridden with special interestswe did better with no income tax and low property taxthen came civil rights, the endless blank check
(DIR) Post #A01bqHXn4W4QAUJpZo by kick@blob.cat
2020-10-10T17:01:30.671449Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@happymoomoo @shebang @feld While that's correct, we are talking about taxation, which while tied to both of those things, isn't the same issue.
(DIR) Post #A01bwJq9Royv1jmm7U by happymoomoo@fedi.absturztau.be
2020-10-10T17:02:36.338894Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@kick @feld @shebang Threads are not bound to OP.
(DIR) Post #A01c5uI1IaDagBOQ1g by feld@bikeshed.party
2020-10-10T17:04:19.286234Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@shebang @kick > average effective tax rateBullshit. This is conservative propaganda to make you think that it the top tax rate was meaningless because of other holes in the tax code and the way income was being reported.They're even advertised on ConservativeJobs.com lmao
(DIR) Post #A01cBGdRe6cnQlyDVw by kick@blob.cat
2020-10-10T17:05:17.928390Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@shebang @feld Citing the Tax Foundation again, and the CRS paper it cites, it ignores what it actually says.(Specifically, this one.)http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/r42729_0917.pdf
(DIR) Post #A01cH3bkzfaOlUwRE0 by shebang@pleroma.freespeech.host
2020-10-10T17:06:20.514326Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@kick @feld More to the point, we’ve got a hundred years of data to show that centralized economics fail and free market economics succeed. The freer the market, the greater the growth and overall wealth. The “wealth redistribution” system has always been a challenging game and only works at all when it is funded by a very strong and very free market — such as we have in places like Norway and Denmark. They can afford for socialist policies because they have economies even less restricted than the US has. If you want to argue that the US could afford more such policies there is definitely an argument to be made there (anyone who claims the US government has been efficient with their using of tax money is clearly crazy), but making the claim that free market economics has failed is outright false. For the record, whether they are conservative or not isn’t a valid argument. That’s a genetic fallacy straight up.
(DIR) Post #A01cV5go3GZ1H5zksi by kick@blob.cat
2020-10-10T17:08:52.616813Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@happymoomoo @feld @shebang No, but if trying to sway your audience, goalpost shifting usually doesn't help. While those are totally valid points, and off the top of my head, roughly accurate (you have to remember that the US government set compensation rates around the same period, which is why compensation structures were relatively flat), it's not directly applicable to the subject at hand, and bringing up something like that reduces the likelihood of changing any opinions at all, even if you're right in saying them.
(DIR) Post #A01cbMe5vCX1bKiaA4 by feld@bikeshed.party
2020-10-10T17:10:01.246845Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@shebang @kick
(DIR) Post #A01ciIWrcqFKrQdsae by shebang@pleroma.freespeech.host
2020-10-10T17:11:16.495627Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@feld @kick Ok well this is just childish rubbish. Go away if this is the best you can manage.
(DIR) Post #A01cnazwNyOfaaljRw by feld@bikeshed.party
2020-10-10T17:12:13.725974Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@shebang @kick you've had like 5 people in this thread point out -- with receipts -- that your article was complete nonsense and you still keep banging that drum
(DIR) Post #A01csq7da8f9wZry4G by shebang@pleroma.freespeech.host
2020-10-10T17:13:10.782166Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@feld @kick I brought up another source. It has multiple sources from many different places. Don’t try to play games here.
(DIR) Post #A01csredsueqhEJq9Q by feld@bikeshed.party
2020-10-10T17:13:11.054497Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@kick @shebang facts are hard, let's go shopping (in the free market)
(DIR) Post #A01cwG3jbZVXFrfqPw by feld@bikeshed.party
2020-10-10T17:13:46.623427Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@shebang @kick oh, so your FIRST source was disproven so you ran to google to find another without actually reading the research/papers behind itgot it.
(DIR) Post #A01d5PWNnKKDCuREI4 by kick@blob.cat
2020-10-10T17:15:26.378089Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@shebang @feld Pick a different decade to worship.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Price_AdministrationAnd I don’t care about them being conservative; I’m extremely conservative, myself. Supply-side economics aren’t an inherently conservative policy. It’s the economic-equivalent of pseudoscience, and directly contributed to countless of today’s problems.I didn’t claim that free market economics were a failed policy, I claimed that supply-side economics is. Because it proved itself to be; if you want to cite the failure of previous centrally-controlled systems, not pointing out that supply-side economics directly brought us the current failed US system is misleading.
(DIR) Post #A01d5WUrrMGwqEmcOu by happymoomoo@fedi.absturztau.be
2020-10-10T17:15:18.447248Z
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@kick @feld @shebang >goalpost shiftingThat does not mean what you think it means.Instead of pulling grand conspiracy theories out of your scared ass, how about coming back down to earth and considering that maybe, just maybe, someone could just have felt like dropping in a semi-related comment with zero ill intent to disrupt or troll?For fuck's sake, there's enough evil in the world without having to make shit up and being terrified that online randos are out to get you. Nobody is out to get you,, grow the fuck up.
(DIR) Post #A01dBdeYAMDEm1ECbw by kick@blob.cat
2020-10-10T17:16:34.074695Z
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@happymoomoo @feld @shebang God you're a retard.
(DIR) Post #A01dJ04tBoEELl3fyS by shebang@pleroma.freespeech.host
2020-10-10T17:17:54.077123Z
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@feld @kick Ok so you didn’t like my first source, so I found another one for you — this one many more sources, then you just automatically just dismissed it. Again, if this is the best dialog you can manage then I’m not going to waste my time on you further. I haven’t been rude to you, so if this kind of smug, pathetic insulting is the only ammo you’ve got then I don’t need to talk to you.
(DIR) Post #A01dYm5OyhkVaYotYO by shebang@pleroma.freespeech.host
2020-10-10T17:20:44.307548Z
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@kick @feld My stance is and always has been that government interference in economics leads to inefficiency. It didn’t directly come up that I’m aware of until now — but that is my position here. Perhaps I should have made that more clear earlier.
(DIR) Post #A01di1uxUCSLIOLey0 by allison@blob.cat
2020-10-10T17:22:24.493948Z
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@shebang @kick @feld Define "efficiency" in this context
(DIR) Post #A01dpzQYd3fFt9vMAK by shebang@pleroma.freespeech.host
2020-10-10T17:23:51.717702Z
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@allison @feld @kick Fair question.I’m defining efficiency in this context as rate of overall growth and generation of wealth.
(DIR) Post #A01e3QHU6CMQwF5NAm by feld@bikeshed.party
2020-10-10T17:26:17.832020Z
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@allison @shebang @kick government's lack of interference in economics leads to slavery 2.0 lmaocorporations don't compete with each other anymore. there's no incentive to. pay as little as possible to the workers, extract all of the company's profits and deposit into shareholder's accounts. ~finhttps://www.wsj.com/articles/six-chicken-industry-officials-are-indicted-in-price-fixing-probe-11602085637
(DIR) Post #A01e5qug3Iq47EZn5U by feld@bikeshed.party
2020-10-10T17:26:44.193694Z
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@shebang @allison @kick generation of wealth... FOR WHOM?
(DIR) Post #A01eT01MM7pt1VjtEO by djsumdog@hitchhiker.social
2020-10-10T17:30:49Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@shebang @feld @kick But you do need government intervention to even have a free market. A totally free market allows child labor, 100 hour work weeks with no overtime, no food safety standards, snail oil as medicine ... over time, for a "free" market to work, it has to have some basic regulation, and then later advanced regulation .. when government nationalizes something, yes, that can cause inefficiency. But business can also be started by government, like TVA,that provide for the common good
(DIR) Post #A01eVJlju6u4qlXRsO by allison@blob.cat
2020-10-10T17:31:19.744895Z
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@shebang @feld @kick "rate of overall growth and generation of wealth" Then there are plenty of obvious counterexamples (first two postwar decades in the US, twenty glorious years in France, Japan from 1945 *right* up until the bubble burst, China from 1980s to present, arguably the NEP and subsequent first five year plan). Put simply, I would contend that there is more than one way to skin this particular cat. International trade barriers being removed *has* done a lot to increase overall prosperity, but it's an issue entirely orthogonal to this and conflating the two is done at one's own peril.As a general disclaimer, I'm on the right wing economically speaking myself but I'm also a realist and don't think the situation can be reduced to a simplistic narrative as such
(DIR) Post #A01eWEUL1TqulIprAO by shebang@pleroma.freespeech.host
2020-10-10T17:31:29.347126Z
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@feld @allison @kick Corporations don’t complete with one another because its more profitable to lobby the government to fix the market in their favour than it is to compete. The whole idea with these people is to prevent competition — in this sense, you are correct, its better to co-operate — my argument isn’t that this doesn’t happen (because it does, all the time), my argument is that this is enabled by government intervention, usually in the form of barrier to market entry in the form of regulations. In short, I don’t disagree with a single thing in your post here. The only difference is that I point my finger at the government for setting up a system where it can limit entry and competition in the market, and then allowing big business lobby groups to purchase laws and regulations that favour them over new businesses. Its not free market with the gov’t can put its thumb of the scales, its crony crapitalism.
(DIR) Post #A01elnYGwLNxqx67m4 by shebang@pleroma.freespeech.host
2020-10-10T17:34:19.261548Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@feld @allison @kick Business owners, obviously. I ran a business for 7 years, its hard as hell to make it, its something like 9 out of 10 businesses (this is from memory, feel free to fact check that) fail within the first two years. In Canada (I’m Canadian so,) 70% of people are employed by small business so when they fail, its a real challenge for both owners and employees to make a living.
(DIR) Post #A01erlHkHQ0sYqD9No by feld@bikeshed.party
2020-10-10T17:35:23.318840Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@shebang @allison @kick I think we can both agree that the entire country would be better off economically and politically if we YEETED money the fuck out of politics then so this lobbying ruse is a footnote in the history booksRegardless of our differences elsewhere, I'd like to see both side move forward on this and several other issues.It's really annoying how this country's politics have a bloodlust for all-or-nothing on everything. If you can gain in inch in progress, take it.
(DIR) Post #A01fBSYHdhjsFiL6B6 by feld@bikeshed.party
2020-10-10T17:38:56.606500Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@shebang @allison @kick I also own a small business (cafe/bakery) which my wife and our business partner operate.It's hell.The business pays for itself but that's it. Nobody with a small business these days is thriving. It's impossible. My wife doesn't even pay herself, never has in 3 years now. The other business partner gets paid, the full/part time employees get paid. If she paid herself she'd be in the red. Lucky that I make good money and we don't need that income.So the business has become an expensive hobby that she's legally bound to operate due to lease and loan.Completely bonkers. The working poor through the middle class are the backbone of this country. They pay all the taxes. Everything we have and do at the state/federal level is based on their hard work and honesty. It's time to fix it and even the playing field.
(DIR) Post #A01fK5C7qou0Pv5SPw by shebang@pleroma.freespeech.host
2020-10-10T17:40:31.061967Z
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@feld @allison @kick I absolutely agree.We probably agree on many, many things. I’d expect we agree that1) Politicians are nearly always corrupt, self serving douchebags.2) Something needs to be done about the police.3) Whatever the cause of what is happening economically right now, there has to be a better way to do it.4) We can’t ignore the poor and the needy and just sweep them under the rug, some people really do need help to get by.
(DIR) Post #A01fs88ZPtNTOCevSK by Mechatroniac@yggdrasil.social
2020-10-10T17:43:34.338029Z
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@kick @shebang @feld Why do you have a pedofag avatar?
(DIR) Post #A01fs8Uu4rF4VT6lGa by lain_os@yggdrasil.social
2020-10-10T17:46:40.045152Z
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@Mechatroniac @kick @feld @shebang Are you just going to go around calling everyone with an anime profile picture a "pedofag" now?
(DIR) Post #A01fx8c34n9cJOpqRU by shebang@pleroma.freespeech.host
2020-10-10T17:47:34.546059Z
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@feld @allison @kick Absolute truth, its always been the middle class that gets the bad end of the stick. When I ran my company, I worked 16 hours days, I was frequently up at all hours of the night, I think probably aged twice as fast too. Its unimaginable stress. I did IT, and a lot of those companies — small businesses like mine, would go out of business right away if they lost their customer data or were even suffering from an outage for too long. During upgrades I’d come in the evenings and nights to work on their stuff so they wouldn’t have to shut down or be inconvenienced while I worked. I could write a book about how much I hate the cheating fat cat bastards at my current job too. Ooooh they make me angry.
(DIR) Post #A01g6qs9t9jqBh0D8C by Mechatroniac@yggdrasil.social
2020-10-10T17:47:50.553952Z
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@lain_os @feld @kick @shebang It is the thin edge of the pedo wedge isn't it? Why would a high testosterone male have a little girl avatar. It's just wrong.
(DIR) Post #A01g6r7kxADOy4IfRY by shebang@pleroma.freespeech.host
2020-10-10T17:49:18.926197Z
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@Mechatroniac @lain_os @feld @kick Should have a sexy tranner avatar like I do. :blobthumbsup:
(DIR) Post #A01gK7iMa7uoBdkVcm by feld@bikeshed.party
2020-10-10T17:51:43.509438Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@shebang @allison @kick 1) there are a lot of honest, hard-working, truly care for the country and community politicians but they are drowned out by the career politicians that have no skills except to grift and swindle. Term limits would be welcomed. The corruption tends to cluster together in certain levels of government and parts of the country. It's not quite this black and white.2. 💯3. 💯4. 💯 A rising tide lifts all ships. You increase the standard of living for the lowest among us and not only does that lift all of us, bring more and more people into the markets as consumers, but it ensures that nobody could ever fall down to that level ever again. The belief that the poor are parasites on society and must be excommunicated and/or exterminated is so incredibly wrong. There is no way to achieve perfection, there will always be some small level of abuse of government programs etc but punishing everyone for the actions of a few is unacceptable. We know better and we've known better. I think modern communication has brought us to the point where the average person cannot be so easily fooled anymore. The "welfare queen" was always an effigy. (and a singular event in history repeatedly used as an example of common behavior when it was an extreme edge case)
(DIR) Post #A01gxzrNCjwRPQybrs by feld@bikeshed.party
2020-10-10T17:58:55.771433Z
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@shebang @allison @kick I think we got off on the wrong foot and I'm glad it's turned, but I really do hope that we spend the 20s working together across the aisle on the things everyone agrees on and put the extreme ideologies on the backburner to be debated another day after we've run out of things to agree on.
(DIR) Post #A01h2PTPupaK0TsLZI by kick@blob.cat
2020-10-10T17:59:43.168302Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@shebang @feld Sorry for the delay; I'm not as fast at typing as I used to be.Inefficiency is inherent in every possible system; minimizing it is a fine goal, but taxation, while inefficient, can fix more inefficiency than it creates.For good examples of this, look at governments stopping price fixing (though there's a (correct) argument to be made that for many things this could be fixed if intellectual property was abolished), and the commonly-replicated effect of just giving poor people money saving money overall, along with the (again, solidly-replicated) effects on public health by eliminating consumer-side healthcare costs (trading inefficiency now for efficiency later) and one of the only policies the US government handled correctly in decades, ePacket.For a bad example of it, look at the breakup of the Bell System. But then consider that the Bell System was responsible for nearly every worthwhile non-Soviet technological innovation in the past hundred years, hired an incredible plurality of global PhDs, and was working on things that would still be considered science-fiction today. It was a previously-government-allowed monopoly that was broken up by the government.Taxation, done properly, is a boon. And so is government interference.It can go very poorly: look at the existence of modern intellectual property laws.Minimizing inefficiency is the correct goal to have, but you have to look at it and weigh what the alternative is (inevitably, also inefficiency, just in a different currency than, well, currency).Decreasing taxation on the lower end of the spectrum is seen as a positive by both sides; raising the tax burden for the richest 30% while eliminating it entirely for the lower half seems like it would fix more inefficiency than it creates, even if it's not a long-term solution to the problem.Taxation done properly can actually increase the freedom of a market, and the people. It isn't synonymous with market fixing, and historically has even occasionally been used to decrease the cost of market-entry.If looking at the margins to see where the most impact can be made, a better solution to making the market freer (and bettering the common person's life) under the current system, rather than decreasing the tax burden on the most wealthy, is eliminating or ceasing the enforcement of international intellectual property treaties for poorer countries, and for richer nations to switch from means-tested welfare to just giving citizens money (this is uncontroversial in economics; you'd do well to read Milton Friedman, an economist who shared exactly your view on efficiency's endorsement of the concept).(I see people mentioning child labor bans in the notifications bar; I want to point out that that's a policy that made sense when implemented but doesn't now that there aren't long-term physical consequences to most forms of labor.)
(DIR) Post #A01hG0XTQ0j2jBFzQe by shebang@pleroma.freespeech.host
2020-10-10T18:02:11.472134Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@feld @allison @kick I agree! Its easy to lose sight of the fact that we both want whats best for everyone — its easy to get snagged up on the details.
(DIR) Post #A01hKWiTj1tpgOYjSK by feld@bikeshed.party
2020-10-10T18:02:59.984607Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@shebang @allison @kick To me there's nothing that exhibits peak political corruption like a multi-million dollar residential property on somewhere like, say, Hawaii, where you can avoid paying any property taxes because you have a chicken coop. I know someone who was able to do this and it still blows my mind. But when it comes down to it you gotta play the game or you'll get played, so I can't be mad at anyone using the advantages handed to them.
(DIR) Post #A01iui0hJQGJ5atjRQ by Grandtheftautism@freespeechextremist.com
2020-10-10T18:20:45.201264Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@shebang @feld @allison @kick we can't do anything about poverty until we separate the drug addicts from the down-on-their-luckers who just need a little help. The DOTL population can be helped out of poverty and back into the workforce, but the drug addicts cannot. There needs to be a different plan to contain drug addicts, perhaps something medical in nature? There are plenty of resources for DOTL already, but drug addicts squander these resources and are always demanding more. They refuse to enter shelters because shelters have rules. They spend aid money on drugs and alcohol. They prefer living on urban sidewalks to living in structured environments where their basic needs are met. Giving them more resources is a waste of resources.
(DIR) Post #A01nBrB2snJ0G9AcNM by mewmew@blob.cat
2020-10-10T19:08:38.448449Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@feld @shebang @allison @kick wow, this thread is actually decently reasonable.uh, I would agree with most of what you're saying - but term limits don't improve politics. Allowing someone to build a career in serving their community is a good thing - if a politician is corrupt then people shouldn't voting them. Removing that option from people only removes accountability from politicians - they don't need to worry about re-election, since they have no chance of it.
(DIR) Post #A01nRNekPOfTKqSvEO by a7@pleroma.mouse.services
2020-10-10T19:11:27.240065Z
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@mewmew @feld @allison @kick @shebang people will vote for the familiar shifty option over the maybe good new option- thats why term limit- fight against human nature
(DIR) Post #A01neQv1adNjDbIqQ4 by mewmew@blob.cat
2020-10-10T19:13:49.078552Z
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@a7 @allison @feld @kick @shebang that's not what happens in practice. what happens in practice is that politicians go to cozy jobs at big corporations after their term, and congressional staffers and lobbyists (who are completely unaccountable to the people) stick around gain much more power.
(DIR) Post #A01njju0R93LXiMB0a by a7@pleroma.mouse.services
2020-10-10T19:14:46.213162Z
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@mewmew @allison @feld @kick @shebang it happens observably often in the nomination process
(DIR) Post #A01nnUUtecPcvJOuie by a7@pleroma.mouse.services
2020-10-10T19:15:27.144583Z
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@mewmew @allison @feld @kick @shebang that same aspect of human nature is also why 2 party domination
(DIR) Post #A01retAuvusifdD2no by shebang@pleroma.freespeech.host
2020-10-10T19:58:43.338338Z
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@kick @feld Oooookay this is a really long post and a bit awkward to discuss — I’ll go paragraph by paragraph here.>Inefficiency is inherent in every possible system; minimizing it is a fine goal, Ok..>but taxation, while inefficient, can fix more inefficiency than it creates.I’ll hear an argument on it.. but my opinion is that any time someone steals the product of my labour it makes my labour worth less. >For good examples of this, look at governments stopping price fixing (though there’s a (correct) argument to be made that for many things this could be fixed if intellectual property was abolished) [snip]Hmm, I’m having trouble understanding what you mean here, can you reword this? I’m not familiar with ePacket, is it some American thing? Google just shows results about shipping from China and I doubt that’s what you are talking about here.>For a bad example of it, [snip]I’m not sure I can argue for or against this without understanding the previous point. Bell certainly had a magnificent history of development, however, that I wouldn’t contest. The break up mainly seems to have traded a large tyrant for many little ones, at least from my observation here.>Taxation, done properly, is a boon. And so is government interference.These are conclusions, not arguments.>It can go very poorly: look at the existence of modern intellectual property laws.Agree.>Minimizing inefficiency is the correct goal to have, but you have to look at it and weigh what the alternative is (inevitably, also inefficiency, just in a different currency than, well, currency).Why is it inevitable? What kind inefficiency are you talking about here? What is this other non-currency? I’m not following..>Decreasing taxation on the lower end of the spectrum is seen as a positive by both sides; raising the tax burden for the richest 30% while eliminating it entirely for the lower half seems like it would fix more inefficiency than it creates, even if it’s not a long-term solution to the problem.The problem here is that the super wealthy have a myriad of ways to avoid paying taxes. Moving their money over seas, putting it in investments, etc, as ways to keep the tax man out. Even if this kind of thing is illegal, well, they find ways to do it under the table. Like the Panama papers showed all sorts of this kind of thing happening and nothing came of it. Everyone skated on it. This just leaves the middle class to take it on the chin.>Taxation done properly can actually increase the freedom of a market, and the people.Ok you’ve made this claim, but it seems counter-intuitive to me. How does someone taking a cut of my work make me more free? It just means now I have to work more to make the same. It means customers have to pay more, and now can buy less. Even with my shitty job, the gov’t takes so much in taxes, then with my crap health insurance, I do little better than cheque to cheque. Retirement is impossible unless I change jobs eventually — and I work as skilled labour in the supposedly well paying transportation industry. >It isn’t synonymous with market fixing, and historically has even occasionally been used to decrease the cost of market-entry.Taxes by definition increase the cost of doing this, and lower the profit from doing it. So that naturally must always increase the barrier to entry. If my business requires (say,) $100,000 dollars to start out, then its $100,000+whatever taxes.>If looking at the margins to see where the most impact can be made, a better solution to making the market freer (and bettering the common person’s life) under the current system, rather than decreasing the tax burden on the most wealthy, is eliminating or ceasing the enforcement of international intellectual property treaties for poorer countries, and for richer nations to switch from means-tested welfare to just giving citizens moneyThis isn’t a fact, its a theory — and not one that has tested well. Very notably in Canada its been tested and failed spectacularly. You can argue that the test had flaws (I don’t doubt it), and I’ll go so far as to admit that its very tricky to test something intended to be universal in a “bubble”. But I can tell you plainly: I hate my fucking job, I hate my bosses, and if I could weasel by without it I’d certainly do so — at least for a while, until I could maybe figure out a way to take a second run at self employment. You are talking about UBI — just state it plainly. >(this is uncontroversial in economics; you’d do well to read Milton Friedman, an economist who shared exactly your view on efficiency’s endorsement of the concept).I’m very familiar with Friedman. He’s interesting, but he has failed to convinced me. Ludwig von Mises is my boy. Automation and its effect on economics is a entire subject all to itself, and I’m personally hesitant to make predictions on it. Also, everything is controversial in economics. One guy saying something hardly means its settled. >(I see people mentioning child labor bans in the notifications bar; I want to point out that that’s a policy that made sense when implemented but doesn’t now that there aren’t long-term physical consequences to most forms of labor.)(Agree, but I’m not going to do so with certainty, but on the surface — yes.)
(DIR) Post #A01rysDaCWCpUgzATQ by shebang@pleroma.freespeech.host
2020-10-10T20:02:19.901389Z
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@mewmew @allison @feld @kick I want less corruption or more chance to participate in it! Haha, seriously, my medical bills make me miserable. Ah well, but you are absolutely right, they spend a few years in office, then bail to some corporation they buttered up while in office, then return to politics to drum up more of those phat lobby bux, then back to private.. etc etc.Its almost incomprehensibly corrupt.
(DIR) Post #A04OXcLEo63NEr64ga by cy@fedicy.allowed.org
2020-10-12T01:16:35.818465Z
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@shebang They’re not even conserving ideas. “The nuclear family” was never a thing, until they created it to try and make us feel more guilty and isolated. They always want to “conserve” decency by cherry picking the most awful repressive era in history, and then ignoring all the centuries of happy nudists that preceded them. They’re not about conserving tradition. They’re about conserving freedom. As in limiting freedom, because we don’t deserve it, we can’t handle it, and we’d all start stabbing each other with letter openers, if there was ever a time when authority was not in total control.I consider myself somewhat conservative, even regressive. But that means dismantling the auto industry in the USA, and going back to trains. It means we stop doing dumbass things that are killing us all. It doesn’t mean going back to some fantasy of what they’re lying about how Christianity used to be. And it doesn’t mean going back on good ideas. Emancipation, fine let’s redo it and free every person without enshrining a super wealthy caste into USA law. But the scene of the wise plantation owner dressed all in white, sitting there and peacefully overseeing all the confused dirty black people who need to be told to work never happened. We can’t go back to something that never happened!Anyway so I might not nod my head to everything you do, but I agree that whitewashed historical revisionism has to fucking die in a fire. Our ancestors were just as much dumbasses as we are; we have to stop worshipping them, and learn from them instead.
(DIR) Post #A04OkxjcZvwlLxrj0a by cy@fedicy.allowed.org
2020-10-12T01:19:00.891273Z
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@feld @shebang