Post 9xq0MmwrjMbQhO2RZA by Amber@mstdn.social
(DIR) More posts by Amber@mstdn.social
(DIR) Post #9xq0Mjtv3rSnFNdY3c by Amber@mstdn.social
2020-08-06T04:53:03Z
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#5thAugust India:- - Topped Corona deaths & new cases- Topped deaths because of floods- One year of evil behaviour with KashmirBut,Indians celebrated mini Diwali. Insane. It is not only insensitive, but, it is also inhuman. Sadly, most of the Indians have lost their morals and humanity side. It's was terrible to see in my area people were firing crackers forgetting there is another community too, there is death in someone's house, there is pandemic.Sad. India will meet its fate soon
(DIR) Post #9xq0Mlcydp6EbPj2vY by itsbhavikjoshi@mastodon.social
2020-08-06T05:43:56Z
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@Amber the nation is dead. We are duffers to actually think patriotism is a thing.
(DIR) Post #9xq0MmwrjMbQhO2RZA by Amber@mstdn.social
2020-08-06T06:07:16Z
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@itsbhavikjoshi, poor or rich country do not make any difference .. for example, Bhutan a poor country but is very very high on happiness index. You see.. if a country has a zombie type soul and insensitive and the government or ruling party is a morally corrupt then that country is just waiting for a disaster to happen. Such country cannot survive for long. Unfortunately.
(DIR) Post #9xq0MnyJvRMPsBj7TM by itsbhavikjoshi@mastodon.social
2020-08-06T06:18:48Z
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@Amber true. Expecting a nation of such people to show sensitivity or ethics is like expecting pigs to fly. A hard fought independence struggle....seems a huge waste now. People here have shown time & again they don't deserve it.
(DIR) Post #9xq0MpPIacXEK9MBA8 by Amber@mstdn.social
2020-08-06T06:45:49Z
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@itsbhavikjoshi, Yes. religious bigotry has been fuelled with spice of nationalism, a traitor, a liar, criminal has been glorified as hero. What a shame for India. What a fall.We used to have leaders like Gandhi, Nehru, Shastri, Patel, Ambedkar...I really don't know how to get rid of this country now. No respect left for Indian voters who are again and again electing rioters and criminals
(DIR) Post #9xq0MqUeYCPbh2ry9A by vikram@mstdn.io
2020-08-06T06:47:52Z
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@Amber, Age is not with me but, still I want to run away from this country. Toxicity.. unlimited all around @itsbhavikjoshi
(DIR) Post #9xu6ynxhmsIPCgmWZc by itsbhavikjoshi@mastodon.social
2020-08-06T07:01:09Z
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@Amber they know people are cowards, people proved them right. Some actually put a criminal side by side with Lord Rama, so there is no hope left. Yesterday was organized by those criminals specifically with the intent to show this, that there is no hope left.
(DIR) Post #9xu6yoBsw9ddufPqfw by praveen@social.masto.host
2020-08-06T07:56:25Z
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@itsbhavikjoshiBut if we echo there is not hope left, we are letting them win without a fight. We need to keep hope alive and wake more people and continue fighting. If you look around people are fighting in even worse situation than us. We still have a chance to beat them in elections, though not sure how long that option will be there.@Amber
(DIR) Post #9xu6ypiBHZ4Ad7X9ea by Amber@mstdn.social
2020-08-06T08:28:36Z
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@praveen , Zombies can't be revived.Looks like our Indian zombies are in love with Evil, they are romancing with fascist evil and the end result of such affair is we already know, disaster. You can't even say they are unaware and sleeping and you can wake them up, problem is they are pretending to sleep. @itsbhavikjoshi
(DIR) Post #9xu6yqZ07BJjGwFKz2 by itsbhavikjoshi@mastodon.social
2020-08-06T09:01:20Z
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@Amber @praveen Even Mahatma Gandhi wouldn't be able to do anything here. Everyone knows that the forces governing us are evil, corrupt & immoral who have also rendered Supreme Court,Election Commision,CBI ,Income Tax Dept,Army...all helpless. Yet, these people keep bowing down to please the evil. They actually want to see things go much worse than this...am from Gujarat, I have seen this monster grow from zero to infinity. Kept hope alive but after 2019 it got tougher & now, all this. .
(DIR) Post #9xu6yr1iOQHmhzgGjw by praveen@social.masto.host
2020-08-06T10:59:06Z
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@itsbhavikjoshiI don't disagree it has become worse. But is it worse than British rule? There was no hope of changing the govt even. See all states are not rules by BJP, now compare that with China or Iran or Russia. I'm not saying it is easy, but we have to keep fighting and what is essential for that is 1. Don't lose hope 2. Wake up more people. Losing hope is exactly what they aim from these actions. But we should not give up too easily.@Amber
(DIR) Post #9xu6yrNh4hrno9xozw by praveen@social.masto.host
2020-08-06T11:01:59Z
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@itsbhavikjoshi @AmberI'm not also saying we can change things in one year, five years or even fifty years, but someone has to start and keep going. I keep repeating this example of our Freedom struggle, many of our freedom fighters did not see Freedom in their lifetime, were their efforts wasted? Without their efforts could those who came after them succeed?
(DIR) Post #9y2HwMbVBcqKXF78ka by Bhavika@mstdn.social
2020-08-06T17:29:17Z
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@Amber @itsbhavikjoshi I agree, but same time , I am not pessimistic person.i believe together we can change India.
(DIR) Post #9y2HwNWDmkDHN9eR9s by praveen@social.masto.host
2020-08-06T17:49:06Z
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@BhavikaCourage is contagious. Echo the voices of courageous people. There are still some people who are not sold out, help their voices reach more people. Support media like https://thewire.in https://scroll.in Echo voices of people like Mani Shanker Iyer and TN Prathapan who is dissenting against soft Hindutva by Congress. There are still so many people still fighting heroically. I don't think we need to lose hope, or rather we cannot afford to lose hope.@Amber @itsbhavikjoshi
(DIR) Post #9y2HwOswhjz7bvI6DY by Bhavika@mstdn.social
2020-08-06T18:13:46Z
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@praveen Exactly. At least my inner consciousness will be at peace with the fact that I am trying or tried to fight with fascism. @Amber @itsbhavikjoshi
(DIR) Post #9y2HwPrD5gBscpUE9Q by bady@aana.site
2020-08-08T04:57:44Z
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@Bhavika @praveen @Amber @itsbhavikjoshi Those who got polarized and fell for them are also victims, helpless like we are but in a different way. Change isn't going to be easy, but difficult doesn't mean impossible. If you can't find an example to follow, be one. Because to lose hope means giving up."Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
(DIR) Post #9y2HwRbKbgg42A4Zg8 by bady@aana.site
2020-08-08T05:06:58Z
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@Bhavika @praveen @Amber @itsbhavikjoshi If giving up is not an option, it wouldn't be difficult to find ways to fight back in our own way. We can find inspirational stories all around us if we start looking. There are people like you and me, no matter how small what they do but still keep doing whatever they can because giving up is not an option. Here's an inspiring example: https://scroll.in/article/969353/how-panthers-paw-publications-is-publishing-its-dalit-books-during-and-against-the-pandemic
(DIR) Post #9y2HwVUO9RV65mr5Pc by Amber@mstdn.social
2020-08-08T05:27:12Z
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@bady How to take Immigration to Norway, Finland or Newzealand? 🙄 Canada is least preference. @Bhavika @praveen @itsbhavikjoshi
(DIR) Post #9y2HwYhGE2a02ZtuOO by praveen@social.masto.host
2020-08-08T07:42:25Z
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@AmberMy friends recently immigrated to Canada (they were not much political), when you start considering it, I can connect you with them.@bady @Bhavika @itsbhavikjoshi
(DIR) Post #9y2HwaDCaliwjvqvom by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-08T09:15:44.351124Z
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@praveen @bady @Bhavika @itsbhavikjoshire: politicians, the Hindi movie line 'angrez chale gaye, aulad chod gaye' is apt.The difference isn't just in the skin colour of the people in power, it is also that civil disobedience stopped thinking that 'Ambedkar, Nehru to apne log hain'. In reality, Amb/Neh were educated in the Macaulay system of education just like us, and chose Western ways instead of traditional Indian ways.
(DIR) Post #9y2Hwc7xTEiYgFPlvE by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-08T09:21:56.844927Z
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@praveen @Bhavika @bady @itsbhavikjoshire: politicians, the ruling party played the game brilliantly. Hollow praise for tradition to appeal to oldies who have access to knowledge of how well-organized Indian villages were + actual high-tech methods to appeal to youngsters. 2 distinct attractions that together create the picture that "everybody" accepts their way.They actually just are more of the same old industry-pleasers.
(DIR) Post #9y2HwdtqseceB4pXDE by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-08T09:27:37.178210Z
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@praveen it is great that you are trying the electoral route in Kerala. The faraway prospect of Kamal Hassan in TN, Upendra in Karnataka and people of your ilk in Kerala emerging winners is great for South India.@Bhavika @bady @itsbhavikjoshire: kejriwal, millions of people in Delhi are not fools in bringing him back - he must be doing something right. If he is the least worst around, it is not his fault - it is our fault.
(DIR) Post #9y2HwfCK3SzWCeTndo by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-08T09:35:46.208470Z
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@Bhavika @bady @itsbhavikjoshi @praveenre: society, it is thankfully independent of government; politicians still meddle, but that is what their job is until they get elected!Society is not others. We are society.Everytime you stop at a traffic light that is red (and switch the engine ff), or buy local known foodstuff or Indian products, you are part of social improvement.Expect the government to be another East India government.
(DIR) Post #9y2HwhC2dTxGOMMbTs by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-08T09:54:28.779923Z
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@Bhavika @bady @itsbhavikjoshi @praveen politicians push for corporate activity in foods, agriculture, mining, etc. to fill their pockets. But I am sure they only eat organic food that isn't poisoned by corporates. And Sonia Gandhi wears Malkha sarees, which are handloom made out of native cotton, not BtCotton.The good stuff is traditional, and you can starve corporates (and hence politicians) if you switch to promoting traditional ways.
(DIR) Post #9y2HwjZrlsCVmpWetU by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-08T10:02:22.301561Z
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@Bhavika @bady @itsbhavikjoshi @praveen I am all for complaining about the status quo.But it is foolish to think the solution lies in the West - it is the West that has been degrading the world - when tradition has the solutions. Our ancestors wouldn't give us bad advice, would they? The colonial West wouldn't give up exploiting us, would they?Achche din = healthWestern ways = junk foodTraditional ways = temporarily bitter pill
(DIR) Post #9y2Hwkp98Y19eVgNLk by praveen@social.masto.host
2020-08-08T10:36:10Z
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@wyatwerpOur tradition includes exploring our own people, Dalits and other castes. So blindly accepting neither tradition nor West will solve it. We need to analyze and decide what is good for us, instead of being blind be it tradition, west or religions.@bady @itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika
(DIR) Post #9y2HwmIFfotSD4J8M4 by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-08T10:45:59.458558Z
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@praveenI am a believer in the distortion of Macaulayan education we all have been subjected to (if you were schooled differently, I am happy for you). That distortion extends to untouchability, Hindu-Muslim animosity, etc. I don't believe divisions existed. The colonial powers seeded it, by recruiting upper castes into Western thought - which made them act with lower castes like the colonial acted!@bady @itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika
(DIR) Post #9y2HwpXbbBxQHYVwCe by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-08T10:50:26.786565Z
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@praveen @Bhavika @bady @itsbhavikjoshi did you know caste is explicitly ignored on a teerth yatra? That is how egalitarian India was (philosophical too - no discrimination on the divine path). Even in normal life, there was great cooperation among people.We really shouldn't trust our biases inherited from Western rule. Hindu-Muslim, East Germany-West Germany, South Korea-North Korea. All they do is divide.
(DIR) Post #9y2HwrFxDn1hbOGry4 by praveen@social.masto.host
2020-08-08T18:40:07Z
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@wyatwerpWhat do you think about caste today? Do you think people are discriminated based on their caste identities?@bady @itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika
(DIR) Post #9y2HwtI9eZyVunJefw by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-08T19:08:44.075164Z
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@praveen @bady @itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika I claimed incongruence of untouchability with pre-colonial societies. Those long-lived societies seem to have been conducive for harmony.Untouchability works many ways, reflecting its root - elitism. British looked down upon all of us, their Indian recruits did likewise. Today, deprivation for "lower" castes wherever, Brahmins too deprived. By "elite" castes - Vaishyas /Kshatriyas.
(DIR) Post #9y2HwvXTIbPossUupM by praveen@social.masto.host
2020-08-08T19:38:23Z
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@wyatwerpDo you call subjugation as harmony?@bady @itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika
(DIR) Post #9y2HwxhTGObPaTBvgu by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-08T19:49:09.808045Z
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@praveen @bady @itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika is there any claim of subjugation pre-colonial times? Based on what?I believe there was jaati, and there was varna. jaati was your biological provenance, varna was your default state as a practioner. One could move in the varna system. In fact, the much-maligned Brahminism made Brahmins earn their Brahminism by arduous study.I believe Aryabhata was shudra, Kerala Namboodiris took his work forward
(DIR) Post #9y2HwzEpXqsgMDo5KK by praveen@social.masto.host
2020-08-09T09:15:10Z
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@wyatwerpSo you believe in jaati? And your place in society is chosen by your jaati? Some or superior and some inferior based on jaati of your parents?@bady @itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika
(DIR) Post #9y2Hx0lTrwan5m5frE by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-09T19:32:17.721291Z
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@praveenjāti is a fact, not belief. It is supposed to be biological provenance. varNa was the family occupation. It was not a strait-jacket, as far as I am aware of. And so on.Now caste. = varNa+jati, as I understand. A conflation ripe for incendiary misuse, if there ever was one.Hindu. A geographic term. = Vedic religion + Veda rejectors like Buddhism, Jainism and tribals. Another conflation.@bady @itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika
(DIR) Post #9y2Hx2jmXEQDD5JLUG by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-09T19:54:58.831283Z
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@praveenPlace in society is varNa, as I said. It had mobility before, apparently. I think it is a reality today, so tradition is working (again?). It wasn't about higher or lower actually, I think.Caste ... angrez chale gaye, aulad chod gaye, I say. The colonial mind did look down on Indians. It also colonized minds of the Indian elite, so they looked down on the other India. Just different skin colour.@Bhavika @bady @itsbhavikjoshi
(DIR) Post #9y2Hx4etONhPAV2T8y by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-09T20:01:33.782798Z
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@praveenI repeat my earlier question. Is there any sort of source for untouchability as a social practice before colonialism?If not, we should not equate Vedic beliefs of outer and inner hygiene - an individual matter - with any relatively-recent social strait-jackets.Untouchability in society needs to be handled as a crime. Period.@Bhavika @bady @itsbhavikjoshi
(DIR) Post #9y2Hx5vafmeN6ZrJoG by praveen@social.masto.host
2020-08-09T20:25:37Z
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@wyatwerpWhat I have read/understood is that untouchability is here for centuries. I will find a source and get back to you on it. I'm happy you reject untouchability. Do you reject discrimination based on caste/jaati/varna? Like you are not allowed to own land in a village, drink water from the public well, cannot buy home in some parts of the village etc.@bady @itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika
(DIR) Post #9y2Hx6c87cg5EVlI7E by praveen@social.masto.host
2020-08-10T10:39:30Z
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@wyatwerp @bady @itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika Wikipedia article on caste references two sources for origin of caste.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste#cite_note-caste-lead-1"It is an ancient institution, having existed for at least 2,000 years among the Hindus who developed not only elaborate caste practices hut also a complex theory to explain and justify those practices (Dumont 1970).""The system existed for some 3,000 years and continues today despite many attempts to get rid of some of its restrictions."
(DIR) Post #9y2Hx7kftL6glIld4a by praveen@social.masto.host
2020-08-10T10:48:51Z
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@wyatwerp @bady @itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika https://un-riddle.com/2018/12/08/caste-system-origins-changes-current-situation/"The varna system is discussed in Hindu texts, and understood as idealized human callings. The concept is generally traced to the Purusha Sukta verse of the Rig Veda."
(DIR) Post #9y2Hx94D0CKIqAuk9w by praveen@social.masto.host
2020-08-10T10:52:55Z
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@wyatwerp @bady @itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Untouchability "B. R. Ambedkar believed that untouchability has existed at least as far back as 400 CE."I withdraw my earlier statement that only Indians practices untouchability, it seems many societies had this practice.
(DIR) Post #9y2HxA5JDanhzsR8Vs by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-10T18:04:57.014833Z
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@praveenI see that article as support for my claim rather than yours.I am giving weight to its open admission that the British chose to bucket jatis into their usual varnas and called it caste (why we want to do so in social discourse now isn't apparent to me).The bigger giveaway is the "Scholars believe" that keeps popping up.contd@bady @itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika
(DIR) Post #9y2HxBPYHoaU6wuohk by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-10T18:11:47.888537Z
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@praveenI am sure Wikipedia's target audience trusts the opinion of Western scholars who knew neither the vernacular nor Samskrta and were reporting to their superiors in the colonial enterprise. They weren't Huen Tsang or Ibn somebody, who were here on the world's first student exchange programme. They were casing the joint.We are not Wikipedia's natural target audience.@Bhavika @bady @itsbhavikjoshi
(DIR) Post #9y2HxByICeNPqhAYr2 by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-10T18:18:49.454228Z
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@BhavikaWikipedia basically can't link to a Samskrta document or a Pali inscription or a Vijayanagar empire text. And they won't care to, given their target audience.Isn't it self-denigrating to look to Wikipedia for knowing about the path that led us to where we are?We should ask our old-timers, visit our civilizational sites that survived, read our non-fiction authors. To make up our own damn mind.@bady @itsbhavikjoshi @praveen
(DIR) Post #9y2HxD2EFV7T9C1Dd2 by bady@aana.site
2020-08-10T18:41:52Z
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@wyatwerp @itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika @praveen Do you find it self-denigrating to use some Western language for communicating here? Do you find it self-denigrating to make use of the fruits of Western research and development including the device/and technology you use to communicate here?For those who consider that knowledge has no 'borders', there is no need to feel any shame for using Wikipedia and I'm even an active contributor to it.
(DIR) Post #9y2HxDeVx9kD3vvnIu by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-10T18:54:02.989217Z
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@badyCommunicating involves a common language. It would be great if it was your choice or mine, but it was Macaulay's choice, wasn't it? हिन्दी में बात करें?The entire Industrial revolution that bootstrapped His Master's Vice was built on wealth looted from India and labour looted from Africa. It is self-denigrating that I have to pay for the device I am typing on.contd@itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika @praveen
(DIR) Post #9y2HxEKLRdCl9fVCVM by bady@aana.site
2020-08-10T19:23:53Z
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@wyatwerp @itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika @praveen I don't find it self-denigrating to use English, I don't take pride in speaking indigenous languages either.I don't want to justify colonization and exploitation. But I don't want to live in the past, hating everything West and approving everything our ancestors did. How far will you go back in the history? Which part of it do you consider as the best or the one we should be following?
(DIR) Post #9y2HxFCwAesDsz2nb6 by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-10T19:45:35.344479Z
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@badyWell, I wish you well in finding something to not hate in the West. For anything they have today, they took many things from us yesterday. You seem to be fine paying for what they have (you will agree it doesn't come for free, it asks for your mental buy-in).You don't have to make the effort required to learn about civilizational knowledge, which missed investment and is out of reach.contd@itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika @praveen
(DIR) Post #9y2HxGdCsTTsIkLIBM by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-10T19:55:27.543950Z
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@badyIf you feel Western knowledge has a future for you, you feel it has achieved something useful in the past for your percentile of human (I didn't want to say average human!). That means you have to look at its track record - its social history, not technological.How far back? Look at its limits. Under Wikipedia's criteria of secondary sources, you basically have 3 centuries of self-deregulation.@Bhavika @itsbhavikjoshi @praveen
(DIR) Post #9y2HxHlOfVctoRBLaS by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-10T20:06:39.414258Z
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@badyIf you will, look at what civilizational knowledge achieved in cow corner. Look at our centuries-old irrigation systems, the physical marvel of the Bruhadeeshwara temple in Thanjavur, multiple spiritual systems thriving non-antagonistically, and so on.If your only complaint is the "caste" system, I say its ongoing obsolescence jives with civilizational values and should be helped along.contd@Bhavika @itsbhavikjoshi @praveen
(DIR) Post #9y2HxIWXqDLAAfF04m by praveen@social.masto.host
2020-08-11T05:54:40Z
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@wyatwerpIgnoring caste in India is like ignoring colonialism of West. The traditional knowledge you built is also a story of exploitation of a large section of our own people. I also want caste to be abolished, but saying it is obsolete already is looking the other way.@bady @itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika
(DIR) Post #9y2HxJSKNNYr3sH98q by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-11T07:45:08.827887Z
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@praveen @bady @itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika we could ignore "caste" in India so that we can talk in jati and varna terms. If you already have identified the breach for the caste discrimination deluge, you would have to act on that - I don't understand how the civilizational system is the breach, and not colonial divide-and-rule's cooption of it and the upper classes, but that is immaterial.If the upper classes are the problem, do target them
(DIR) Post #9y2HxJwoY1woaQXUf2 by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-11T08:01:09.932893Z
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@praveen @Bhavika @bady @itsbhavikjoshi I wouldn't place faith in colonial documentation of civilizational systems. If you have faith in them, the wiki page you referenced itself says there was mobility in the varna system, there were shudra kings, and so on.I don't know when shudra became a denigratory term, but it isn't in any civilizational texts (bhagwan Veda Vyasa was born to a shudra, Krishna's best friend was a shudra).
(DIR) Post #9y2HxL0kasgrsvO9R2 by bady@aana.site
2020-08-11T09:08:04Z
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@wyatwerp @itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika @praveen What about the discrimination against Karna and Ekalavya mentioned in the Mahabharata? May be those stories were also some hijacked versions of the West?
(DIR) Post #9y2HxMeUUc4aySzP16 by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-11T13:05:55.693383Z
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@bady @itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika @praveen I didn't realize it was anything more than favouritism. I should see about that.But this is whataboutism. Do my examples not count, and yours count? If both count, isn't it implying that all are equal, but flawed humans discriminate? That would be consistent with the Mahabharat being a polemic on human society.We should #MeToo flawed humans of that ilk.
(DIR) Post #9y2HxNSpTSL5UaXbTk by bady@aana.site
2020-08-11T13:45:52Z
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@wyatwerp @itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika @praveen Is it so? To quote your own words, "All parts count, including unsavoury parts". That's your point of view, to accept everything including the unsavoury parts. But now you've just contradicted yourself, cunningly attributing the flaws of an exploitive society to some flawed individuals and not being ready to accept the unsavory parts. I'm glad that you changed your mind.
(DIR) Post #9y2HxO7x0ZETY7mRZg by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-11T13:53:35.451382Z
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@badyI think you are confused. Mahabharata ≠ Vedas. Mahabharata is full of flawed characters, in fact Vedic Brahmins (flawed too) are barely there in numbers - may not be an accident, probably a reflection of society's composition.You could voice your stand too. Do the Vedas and its derivatives have any place in your lexicon? If not, please consider what I said earlier.@itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika @praveen
(DIR) Post #9y2HxPqebqaKt3hetM by praveen@social.masto.host
2020-08-11T14:27:41Z
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@wyatwerp @bady @itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika Is Ramayana also flawed characters?
(DIR) Post #9y2HxQoZ16VVsrjVGy by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-11T15:39:56.143189Z
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@praveenWe can check (Kaikeyi obviously comes to mind first, but yeah, flawed characters seem to be fewer - in line with the trope of those being better times).Do you have a non-negative character in it saying something incogruous?@badySometime, do state your stands too. Do these civilization works have any place in your lexicons? Or are they just an easier target than colonized thinking and pushy elites?@itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika
(DIR) Post #9y2HxRbU5DdgKacZWa by bady@aana.site
2020-08-11T16:31:13Z
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@wyatwerp @itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika @praveen I'll make my stand clear. We're going thru a hard time where the elected govt is polarizing the citizens, inducing hate and violence instead of spreading harmony and peace. Anyone who supports/ignores it, purposefully or not, is joining hands with the govt to oppress the minorities, the poor and the marginalized. Inducing nationalism at the expense of rationality is part of that agenda.contd
(DIR) Post #9y2HxSOl813QnPfvKS by bady@aana.site
2020-08-11T16:41:15Z
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@wyatwerp @itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika @praveen When I see you trying to whitewash our ancient civilization, I see it as part of such nationalist agenda. Even if that's not your intention, such opinions cannot be seen as disconnected from the space and time we're in. My stand is that we need rationality without sacrificing humanity to progress further, instead of clinging on to some sacred texts or ideas that don't get updated over the time.
(DIR) Post #9y2HxU5gpszO2qlisq by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-11T17:25:45.013398Z
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@badyYou are reaching again. You haven't yet pointed out a single fact I whitewashed. I even spelled out why it is so for everything I said.You basically don't care about civilizational thought, so you don't care if it gets coopted by the right wing. You are following their playbook, otherwise you would leave civilizational thought out of your arguments. But it is easier to attack than the elites.@itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika @praveen
(DIR) Post #9y2HxUzhTdnAqYySBc by bady@aana.site
2020-08-11T17:54:24Z
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@wyatwerp @itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika @praveen Not just whitewashing (attributing casteism to the West), glorification of own country's ancient civilization along with reluctance to reject unsavory parts of it (untouchability and other forms of discrimination), spreading misinformation or information without proper reference (lokayurveda, plastic surgery) and attempts to demean the West in general by simply labelling them as elitists.
(DIR) Post #9y2HxVbHDvqkj6YSky by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-11T18:10:05.868553Z
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@badyYou are reaching ... like the guy in 'The Fantastic Four'.The West attributes to itself the conflation of jati and varna as caste, I simply recognize its impact.I didn't glorify civilizational thought, I just didn't snipe at it because it doesn't snipe back.I didn't leave out unsavoury parts - they are a parable to point out what is unsavoury. They even say it is so.contd@itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika @praveen
(DIR) Post #9y2HxWFgngAykRSjkO by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-11T18:27:11.784745Z
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@badyre: lokayurveda, I can't convince anybody about the source on the ground I learnt it from. You are right to be sceptical of an unconfirmed report, but wrong in jumping to the conclusion that it is misinformation.re: plastic surgery, is the rare instance of the West acknowledging civilizational knowledge as the source unavailable in a Web search? Pune Italian plastic surgery?contd@Bhavika @itsbhavikjoshi @praveen
(DIR) Post #9y2HxXH8zkvxvF9Pea by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-11T18:44:36.121004Z
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@badyre: Western elite, you are twisting what I said into 'the West is elite'.There is an elite class in the West. Colonized the world and has built on it on and on. It created the caste construct and coopted the native elite, who too built on it on and on.Western masses, native masses: enablers. You want the latter to be enemy too. I realize the former just don't have a civilization for reference.@Bhavika @itsbhavikjoshi @praveen
(DIR) Post #9y2HxXwyUEOW0yior2 by bady@aana.site
2020-08-11T19:13:15Z
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@wyatwerp @itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika @praveen I repeat, no one supported elitism here. In fact, calling out some people for not having any civilization and taking pride in the 'privilege' of having been born in a specific nation/location with some rich history seems to me as some form of elitism!
(DIR) Post #9y2HxYag6c9a07IWjw by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-12T04:12:22.152488Z
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@badyThe West doesn't have civilization. Stating fact is not calling out: it is the reason they can't acknowledge other civilizations' knowledge.Born among a civilizational people is a good thing, not privilege. You're hung up on location; its about peopleAncient history? That's Macaulay in your mind. See e.g. https://m.aveda.com/featured-ingredients . Knowledge the West is leveraging. Selling selenium shampoo here!@itsbhavikjoshi @Bhavika @praveen
(DIR) Post #9y2HxZx32vdqDmluFM by emacsomancer@fsmi.social
2020-08-12T05:00:10.675047Z
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@wyatwerp > The West doesn't have civilization. Stating fact is not calling out: it is the reason they can't acknowledge other civilizations' knowledge.There's civilisation in the West too, of course. The problem is that colonialism is destructive generally, and saps the civilisation of the colonisers too.@bady @Bhavika @itsbhavikjoshi @praveen
(DIR) Post #9y3Yw9MQJj1RqCVNjs by wyatwerp@fsmi.social
2020-08-12T06:06:52.051222Z
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@emacsomancerYes. My riffing off Gandhi ji's "It would be a very good idea" comment on Western civilization, and the relative lack of a body of work don't mean there is nothing. I heard Voltaire had good points to make, for example.On the other hand, Voltaire et al are not what colonial apologism has in mind - so, in context, I have hope that I am not far off the mark.@Bhavika @bady @itsbhavikjoshi @praveen
(DIR) Post #9y3YwAQiLG359nWK48 by emacsomancer@fsmi.social
2020-08-12T19:51:48.234166Z
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@wyatwerp Yeah, I get the Gandhiji reference, but the problem with Western colonialism is still the 'colonialism' part and not the 'Western' part. Japanese colonisation of India wouldn't have been any more positive. I would take the Gandhi reference to be more a dark joke about British colonialism being harmful not only to India but also to the British, given his other views.@Bhavika @bady @itsbhavikjoshi @praveen