Post 9xRDmrikf1NdRiCyS8 by flub@mastodon.social
(DIR) More posts by flub@mastodon.social
(DIR) Post #9xQZZCBNn6ukgcWk6q by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-07-25T00:24:04Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
Fuck Matrix
(DIR) Post #9xQZg8Q8B2D52sjanQ by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-07-25T00:25:43Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
Fuck MatrixFuck XMPPFuck SlackFuck DiscordFuck TeamsFuck WhatsAppFuck SignalFuck TelegramFuck YouUSE IRC
(DIR) Post #9xQaISv8PGmtd5Vtzc by moparisthebest@moparisthe.best
2020-07-25T00:32:07.212689Z
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@sir can't help but notice you over here using activitypub and not IRC.Personally I only use XMPP with a transport to talk to the backwards folk who haven't graduated from IRC yet. :)
(DIR) Post #9xQaITon4LJ6PhYLk8 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-07-25T00:33:25Z
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@moparisthebest activitypub is not an instant chat protocol, fuck off
(DIR) Post #9xQbmZGrSawtxzasbY by klardotsh@toot.cafe
2020-07-25T00:48:21Z
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@sir It's a very complicated protocol and my god running a homeserver is a headache, but it also does more, by design, than IRC, and offers features that users *want* (if they didn't, it wouldn't have been adopted from the sea of FOSS chat protocols that have flopped, nor would its proprietary analogues be success stories: Slack, MS Teams, etc.)I'm glad IRC works for you, and indeed for many devs it's all we need, but corps like Mozilla wouldn't have ditched it for no reason, IMO.
(DIR) Post #9xQbuy1zHpcX4jdrFo by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-07-25T00:51:00Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@klardotsh users who want more features are wrong to want themThe Mozilla debacle was a vocal minority screwing over an established community
(DIR) Post #9xQcoqWEP63pzeQvJo by boob@shitposter.club
2020-07-25T01:03:56.169279Z
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@sir @moparisthebest Last time you bitched about AP and I noted there's nothing else worth using you tried to conflate it with email, you really should find a narrative and stick to it if you're so religiously devoted to free protocols.
(DIR) Post #9xQdK64Ee3BzC2Evk8 by klardotsh@toot.cafe
2020-07-25T01:05:11Z
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@sir I just re-read your blog article and actually, I agree with your bit of "conservative improvements on top of existing IRC norms are much better". I think some of the UX things in Matrix are *awesome* to have inline support for (ex. uploading an image straight from the app), but would fullheartedly agree with everything boiling down to plain text before it hits the wire.Sadly, convincing my boss, for example, of that is nigh-impossible, so Slack-esque UXes and protocols are now the "norm".
(DIR) Post #9xQdez4LrJkfZPFoDQ by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-07-25T01:06:44Z
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@klardotsh you did not understand my article
(DIR) Post #9xQe4vS1vw8bsUhQMy by fleeky@prsm.space
2020-07-25T01:17:58Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@sir no seriously, tell me how you really feel about this
(DIR) Post #9xQeK2HSp7R1P3xiUK by klardotsh@toot.cafe
2020-07-25T01:13:56Z
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@sir I'm not sure why you think that when I ultimately... mostly agree with you? You laid out a midway point between Slack-esque apps and IRC that I *agree* with, but don't know how to push for outside of, well, FOSS geeks and the like.
(DIR) Post #9xQef5WpwW8jYeBv84 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-07-25T01:15:54Z
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@klardotsh I did *not* do such a thing
(DIR) Post #9xQg9xBJ7yDmbIP1yy by klardotsh@toot.cafe
2020-07-25T01:26:33Z
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@sir But.... you did?You didn't specify how the images could be *uploaded* client-side, sure, but that's a client-side concern. Similarly, you discuss code snippets in passing.The only bit I really disagreed with in there is scrollback, and that's mostly due to my usage patterns of chat apps not being *quite* as ephemeral as you root for (read: I come and go and am in rooms I need to be caught up on even after periods of absence, non-negotiably)
(DIR) Post #9xQh7jjUG5bOGUtemO by Hawk1291@fosstodon.org
2020-07-25T01:41:25Z
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@sir dont forget about Tox and Wire too!
(DIR) Post #9xQihU7Rt1W0DgiMT2 by nergal@linuxrocks.online
2020-07-25T02:09:49Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@klardotsh i was all for matrix. what has been bothering me? why make http so hardcoded into the framework that it will be hard to switch or add anything else? why use cloudflare and other cdn? why is matrix so expensive to self-host? it is very demanding. even more than jabber was when jabber got many of these features back in dialup days, when hdd were averaging 40gb. @sir
(DIR) Post #9xQkqtRzH5QZIWw3Hc by rtwx@fosstodon.org
2020-07-25T02:31:10Z
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@sir 🤔 my point of view:At least Matrix syncs with all my devices, is readily available on all the leading platforms, has notifications if I want......like, stop living in the dark ages?I don’t have a desk job and am not logged into irc all the time. That makes it useless for chat. I have to use slash commands to do anything? Who does that anymore...Also... are you OK man? If you need to talk we’re here, sounds like some shit has you down maybe.
(DIR) Post #9xQmabmRP5jtlnrgIq by joey_zozo@qoto.org
2020-07-25T02:52:05Z
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@sir looks like someone's got the grumpy dumpies :^)
(DIR) Post #9xQo3gPfMHs0URdjIu by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-07-25T03:09:51Z
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@georgiaRevolution IRC@sir
(DIR) Post #9xQy5gTz4NNUpKFi3k by klardotsh@toot.cafe
2020-07-25T05:02:16Z
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@nergal @sir As one who hosts a Matrix homeserver I will wholeheartedly agree with these concerns, too. It's a colossal pain in the ass to get going, there was a particularly nasty upgrade around the 1.0 days (especially regarding SSL/TLS), and the thing eats a ton of resources.I recall running a Prosody (XMPP in Lua) server maybe 7-10 years ago on a Pentium 4 machine with 1GB RAM and had no problems. Synapse on a Raspberry Pi is... not going to be nearly as pleasant.
(DIR) Post #9xR1YwAc7dqLk1pgky by klardotsh@toot.cafe
2020-07-25T05:04:48Z
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@nergal @sir This said, if Dendrite ever stabilizes, or another homeserver impl is written, there's hope for the "run it on a weaker box" crowd maybe. It's never going to be as CPU/RAM-light as an IRCd, let alone net I/O, though.That said, I've been considering replacing my Matrix homeserver with an IRC server with stunnel (for SSL) and maybe some bots to provide, for example, automatic creation of Jitsi rooms (to replace the VOIP bits of Matrix, which sometimes use Jitsi now anyway)
(DIR) Post #9xR1Yx9aSwcGn8MNnM by nergal@linuxrocks.online
2020-07-25T05:41:10Z
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@klardotsh psyc was on experiment -- so to speak -- in evolving irc. https://psyc.eu/it was absorbed into other technology. the features of this chat were numerous and powerful. @sir
(DIR) Post #9xR1uNcZFus8xa8HL6 by nergal@linuxrocks.online
2020-07-25T05:45:02Z
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@klardotsh psyc was on experiment -- so to speak -- in evolving irc. know of it? https://psyc.eu/it was absorbed into other technology. the features of this chat were numerous and powerful. @sir
(DIR) Post #9xR7UKIJbKICq2cT8i by tyil@soc.fglt.nl
2020-07-25T06:47:33.624739Z
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@klardotsh @sir It may be *intended* to do more, but since everything is broken by design, and there's only 1 bad implementation, that's quite expensive in resources to host, it really doesn't do more than IRC. Well, except for causing headaches and bills. It does excel in those compared to a good protocol.
(DIR) Post #9xR8GnTuO65JGC9euO by tyil@soc.fglt.nl
2020-07-25T06:56:18.941900Z
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@rtwx @sir >At least Matrix syncs with all my devicesThis was quite buggy with encrypted messages last time I checked. Perhaps they've gotten around to this. IRC did, at least. A couple decades ago by now. Using a bouncer.>is readily available on all the leading platformsWhereas IRC is readily available on *all* the platforms, not just the ones that web "developers" have deemed worthy.>has notifications if I wantYou can get this with IRC too, and with a fraction of the resource costs.>stop living in the dark agesStop pretending software is bad because it's old. It used to be called "proven" or "battle-tested". Your incapability to learn how something works because it didn't come wrapped in Yet Another Terrible JS "app" is on you.>I have to use slash commands to do anything? Who does that anymore...Err... The most popular (and only practically usable) Matrix client?
(DIR) Post #9xRDmrikf1NdRiCyS8 by flub@mastodon.social
2020-07-25T07:56:39Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sir how about email? Can offer a surprisingly good chat feature set: https://delta.chat
(DIR) Post #9xRJnZ8voj63qJAeoa by BartG95@mastodon.host
2020-07-25T09:03:56Z
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@sir What is so bad about xmpp?
(DIR) Post #9xRM9zHfVS4fCF4om8 by adz@mastodon.technology
2020-07-25T09:30:31Z
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@sir You take that blue pill.
(DIR) Post #9xRawijBFWdFOc4q6y by r@freesoftwareextremist.com
2020-07-25T12:17:37.632400Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@tejrnz SMTP is not designed for instant messaging. On top of that, most "modern" email servers also use many other complex systems such as IMAP, DKIM, SPF, DMARC, etc. All of it is just too much bloat for an IM system. Not to mention, a typical email sent from google server includes more than 4KiB of headers.
(DIR) Post #9xRbtUUznMUELrSxuq by kungtotte@fosstodon.org
2020-07-25T12:27:41Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@r @tejrnz how big is a typical message from WhatsApp, Snapchat (text message), FB Messenger, etc.? That's who Delta Chat is competing against, not IRC. Also, how much bloat do those others carry compared to Delta Chat? Since it's just a UI over email you can literally use all of your existing apps and infra, just send an email to the correct address.
(DIR) Post #9xRePkz6En0Uei3ns0 by r@freesoftwareextremist.com
2020-07-25T12:56:25.451353Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@kungtotte @tejrnz I do not have access to the source code to the mentioned systems, but wikipedia mentions that Whatsapp internally uses XMPP. XMPP is a streaming XML protocol, meaning once the connection is established, it only sends a minimal amount of required data. I'm not saying XMPP is a good protocol, cause I'm not really familiar with it. But that doesn't make email any better for IM.1595681615.png
(DIR) Post #9xRmg0IhrKKgQOUPBY by adfeno@ecodigital.social
2020-07-25T14:27:23Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sir I'm in favor of #XMPP and also #IRC, arguments in https://libreplanet.org/wiki/XMPP also apply to #IRC since both are open standards (approved by known international or national standards body).
(DIR) Post #9xRwgEPiO0dHjlVyrY by wowaname@anime.website
2020-07-25T16:21:11.126984Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sir alright but get this:okay, boomer
(DIR) Post #9xRwwhTw4zfYWWLGgy by wowaname@anime.website
2020-07-25T16:24:03.998227Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@r @kungtotte @tejrnz @flub xmpp is fine in practice, i quit being over-idealistic, as long as you stick to the mature clients and servers it's fine, and it'd be easy to focus more effort on making existing xmpp software even more mature, as opposed to building a protocol like matrix from the ground upemail is not for chat, period, fuck off, fuck delta chat, i dont want my inbox cluttered with your stupid chat requests and i'm this close to considering it as spammy
(DIR) Post #9xRxnjOHiGoxn8zBNA by wowaname@anime.website
2020-07-25T16:33:44.346111Z
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@sir i use what other people use, deal with it B)
(DIR) Post #9xSG6n1WEFbrjfZhFQ by debacle@framapiaf.org
2020-07-25T19:58:49Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@moparisthebest @sir Same here. I use IRC a lot, but via #biboumi (an XMPP transport) and #gajim (a Jabber client) 🙂
(DIR) Post #9xWPZVmzeKvK1LF6mG by merlin@hostux.social
2020-07-27T20:03:42Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@sir what's wrong with matrix? can you please explain?