Post 9xQ84d2PCFkCEkWo8e by nocko@makerdon.org
(DIR) More posts by nocko@makerdon.org
(DIR) Post #9xQ5gwk45MjqURWsNc by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-07-24T18:51:44Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
C++ is a bad programming language used by bad programmers to write bad programs.
(DIR) Post #9xQ61nCmjpOazeu3WK by abdhessuk@social.nixnet.services
2020-07-24T18:54:53Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sirBut a lot of code on #Linux is made using #C++ : not so bad
(DIR) Post #9xQ6Ax4FRK3wBfHG4W by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-07-24T18:56:03Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@abdhessuk "there's #lots of it so it must be #good" - a moron
(DIR) Post #9xQ6BnlHWZNncBoMMq by nergal@linuxrocks.online
2020-07-24T18:58:18Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@abdhessuk what code specifically? @sir
(DIR) Post #9xQ6XlEPc0Mo8euLE8 by herag@dobbs.town
2020-07-24T19:00:40Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sirOkay I've heard a few people say this. What makes it bad exactly? I have only used Python and C, I have never even looked at the source of a C++ program.
(DIR) Post #9xQ6fa74pjg5yMCpd2 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-07-24T19:01:38Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@herag C++ has no redeeming features. The answer to "what's bad about C++" is "C++"
(DIR) Post #9xQ6oa0eaW5sG1Ua5Q by loke@functional.cafe
2020-07-24T19:02:51Z
3 likes, 5 repeats
@sir C++ is what you get when you start designing a language and you realise you're digging too much deep, and you decide to climb out of the hole by digging through the earth.
(DIR) Post #9xQ73Ck1NgiGR5gbaK by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-07-24T19:04:10Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@loke I almost agree with you but it implies that the C++ designers have self-awareness
(DIR) Post #9xQ73DUoZi8wmDZyWO by allison@blob.cat
2020-07-24T19:07:54.034681Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir @loke I mean, at the very least, they definitely live in fear of what they've created.
(DIR) Post #9xQ7HAzuf1zF59mWaO by mgrondin@youdabomb.social
2020-07-24T19:10:29.284422Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir What would you recommened to someone just starting out with programing? I had started looking at C++ but since i have no specific reason to learn that over anything else i'm open to better suggestions...
(DIR) Post #9xQ7j9iszeH1Em9vQO by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-07-24T19:13:10Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mgrondin C
(DIR) Post #9xQ7uAVMQWHUqc5GfQ by herag@dobbs.town
2020-07-24T19:15:07Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sirBahaha, okay. That's fair I guess. Perhaps I should just stick to the 2 that I know. (Not that I know either very well at all)
(DIR) Post #9xQ84d2PCFkCEkWo8e by nocko@makerdon.org
2020-07-24T19:17:59Z
2 likes, 2 repeats
@sirOn one project I thought "boy, I really need to keep more careful track of these allocs. What if C++ and I used some RAII". <Fast forward 6 weeks>RAII not as easy/universal as it looks, other "features" sneak in, code unmaintainable / can't be reasoned about any more.It's a mistake I won't make again, but I wish I wouldn't have tried even once.
(DIR) Post #9xQ8B1yDPZHbIicZE0 by hyphen@anime.website
2020-07-24T19:20:35.106868Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@mgrondin @sir python or scheme tbh if you're just started out and have no previous experience. with C it's the kind of language where you have to pay attention to the little things as well as the big picture.
(DIR) Post #9xQ8XY5afsf3HqoAXA by nocko@makerdon.org
2020-07-24T19:21:24Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@sirOld me: This is hard, maybe I need more abstractions so I don't screw it up.Current me: This is hard. Maybe I'm going about this the wrong way.
(DIR) Post #9xQ8fVmX8YwYRngvPk by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-07-24T19:23:36Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@hyphen @mgrondin your first language should be C, but you shouldn't use it to start writing useful programs in right away. You should use it to learn on throw-away code.
(DIR) Post #9xQ9RJlH8D5t4DtlxY by hyphen@anime.website
2020-07-24T19:34:43.098795Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir @mgrondin I'll have to disagree. I don't consider myself a pro. Few years ago Python was the only language in my belt. So I have immediate memories of my first struggles;a nice REPL with tab completion to quickly try and explore things, a syntax that gets out of your way, and the help() function to quickly bring up docs for any function/module were important crutches that helped me a lot in my first days.if you're at a point where you're still not sure what's the difference of a function and a procedure, list and array, how to write if statements, etc.. C can be too cumbersome.i think once a thershold is passed where you can translate your thoughts to statements, learning something more proper and transparent can be a great benefit.
(DIR) Post #9xQ9U5lDdvFSVrC9ke by abdhessuk@social.nixnet.services
2020-07-24T19:35:11Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@nergal I have compiled several packages on Debian derivative OS and I have seen a lot of them created with C++ (.hpp, .cpp)@sir
(DIR) Post #9xQ9mzCKGdidf1sq4u by nergal@linuxrocks.online
2020-07-24T19:38:32Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@abdhessuk those are packages. not the kernel? would not being compilable by clang be a problem is much c++ was in kernel? @sir
(DIR) Post #9xQAP36wAPgAnjVrKS by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-07-24T19:45:27Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@loke*insert balrog meme*@sir
(DIR) Post #9xQB4C4fkIcwTR4ZSy by abortretryfail@mastodon.social
2020-07-24T19:52:22Z
3 likes, 2 repeats
@hyphenHonestly, if I had to give up REPLs, tab completion, and help functions to get good manpages of all the functions you need like C has, I'd do it.@sir @mgrondin
(DIR) Post #9xQBdVd525odG30SVU by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-07-24T19:57:00Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@abortretryfail @hyphen @mgrondin strong agree
(DIR) Post #9xQC66PDtNDVQV9vYu by hyphen@anime.website
2020-07-24T20:04:30.574032Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@abortretryfail @sir @mgrondin the manpages are nice if you have some idea what you're looking for and what its name might be (they're not as easy to guess or follow the implicit structure of). python's docs are explicitly structured.it's a general extra involvement that I'm pointing out.same thing as what's done when people are taught physics or math, they start with opaque easy to work with formulae to get their hand going, then after a certain threshold it becomes better to learn how these came to be.. as opaqueness becomes something that holds them back more than a crutch.when giving beginner advice it's good to assume nothing, even just the fact that the language is compiled, is taken for granted, right?
(DIR) Post #9xQC7f9ICh6rTBS4hM by AnianZ@mastodonten.de
2020-07-24T20:00:51Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@abortretryfail @hyphen @sir @mgrondin the sad thing is: when I learned C at University nobody told me about the man pages :/
(DIR) Post #9xQCQW6C4kEKu5zbfM by hyphen@anime.website
2020-07-24T20:08:11.933167Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@AnianZ @abortretryfail @mgrondin they dont teach people what version control is at my uni :xD:sometimes i share some of @sir's webpages to my friends. they're easy to swallow i think
(DIR) Post #9xQCXPSHAwbsKEblrs by jasper@mastodon.nl
2020-07-24T20:07:57Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir i am sure you can use a subset of C++ and be just fine..But think that is a very messy way to do things, and any addition can exit the subset.. Overall it doesn't seem like a good idea..C as a replacement though, think C does not nearly do well enough. Like you have to tell it the types when it damn well knows, and the string functions it comes with are pretty awful aswel.. The syntax is more complicated than it should be. (that goes for C++ too)
(DIR) Post #9xQCYtxJGE6BD7pr0q by hyphen@anime.website
2020-07-24T20:09:43.158197Z
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@abortretryfail @mgrondin @sir btw many of my friends develop on windows still. no manpages for them *sad violin noises*
(DIR) Post #9xQCpcf4oSgIUsHR44 by izarella@anime.website
2020-07-24T20:12:43.738621Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@hyphen @AnianZ @abortretryfail @mgrondin @sir Wait what kind of school doesn't teach version control
(DIR) Post #9xQDMVz6etF1LSKirw by hyphen@anime.website
2020-07-24T20:18:40.067501Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@jasper @sirwhich subset? and can you and the next guy agree on the same subset?also https://github.com/topics/cI think it's more than enough
(DIR) Post #9xQDcxzkHhooqoTdTc by AnianZ@mastodonten.de
2020-07-24T20:18:18Z
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@izarella @hyphen @sir @abortretryfail @mgrondin Many German Universities from what know. The field is called "Informatics" and not "IT" or "Software Engieering" and it's typical for Universities to be more academic and less practical in what they teach. So some of it is expected.
(DIR) Post #9xQDcyc1zMRYlYOD9U by izarella@anime.website
2020-07-24T20:21:37.884251Z
2 likes, 2 repeats
@AnianZ @hyphen @sir @abortretryfail @mgrondin Even from a theoretical perspective version control is important though.
(DIR) Post #9xQDzXka1lXk7C9ICu by msoucy@mastodon.social
2020-07-24T20:24:05Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sir hey, wait! I just it to... Oh. Ohhh... Yeah.
(DIR) Post #9xQE5QcNSSrHjS7Ob2 by hyphen@anime.website
2020-07-24T20:26:47.743882Z
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@izarella @AnianZ @abortretryfail @mgrondin @sir it prevents people from sharing code thru google docs and in chat messages :DUMBcat:
(DIR) Post #9xQEgaVHfOBH6eWGPo by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-07-24T20:32:16Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@hyphen @abortretryfail @mgrondin I have zero empathy for Windows users, anything bad that happens to them is their fault. Including, like, stubbing their toe or being hit by a car
(DIR) Post #9xQFr1xaXSIN6xImXY by abortretryfail@mastodon.social
2020-07-24T20:45:13Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir Microsoft stubbed its toe on C++ and Windows happened.@hyphen @mgrondin
(DIR) Post #9xQJDl4nmGNhGpClwe by herag@dobbs.town
2020-07-24T19:17:25Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mgrondinYeah, don't start with Python like I did. It screwed my whole thinking up about programming. I wish I had started with C all those years ago.@sir
(DIR) Post #9xQJNJLxhrrcBTmpsm by mgrondin@youdabomb.social
2020-07-24T21:26:03.819604Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir @hyphen @abortretryfail Well that escalated quickly...
(DIR) Post #9xQJmvjGAC3sRatrfM by mgrondin@youdabomb.social
2020-07-24T21:30:41.125572Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@hyphen @sir But see i kinda want to have to pay attention to the little things as well...that way when something is broken or blows up i know it's without a doubt my fault
(DIR) Post #9xQJuV7wx5U0Fz3hlQ by hyphen@anime.website
2020-07-24T21:32:03.400690Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@mgrondin @sir well you've read the thread, you know your options, good luck with all choices you make and make perseverance your friend!
(DIR) Post #9xQKNQcQnEEafk6rho by amiloradovsky@functional.cafe
2020-07-24T21:36:02Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sir Any PL, if used by bad programmers, then to write a bad programs. — Tautology.OTOH, no programming language can make bad programmers write good programs.
(DIR) Post #9xQKgE5nacwrKBoGiu by mgrondin@youdabomb.social
2020-07-24T21:40:38.244067Z
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@sir Follow up question if i may. Do you have some learning resources(preferably online) to start with?Just for info that no one has asked for. I have done some stuff with python in the past...nothing i could do from scratch but it wasI want to do thisGoogleCopy,PasteTweak a littleDoneI have no "need: to learn to code...like i don't plan on making a career of it but who knows someday it might come in handy...@hyphen
(DIR) Post #9xQMQAjCWyjgAHiEDo by loweel@boseburo.ddns.net
2020-07-24T22:00:08.658952Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@sir said the guy who was never able to work with it.
(DIR) Post #9xQNxxlLLIIbklOIbI by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-07-24T22:15:47Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@loweel said the idiot who thinks they understand it
(DIR) Post #9xQO2bTDeUvU3x7tKq by p@lol.dydx.moe
2020-07-24T22:18:20.030173Z
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"The only time I was wrong is when I thought I was wrong."@sir
(DIR) Post #9xQO9D6MeWG8VnaQdM by moth@collapsitarian.io
2020-07-24T22:19:32.283181Z
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@herag @sir OOP criticisms make a lot of sense to me. (Not exactly cpp specific.)
(DIR) Post #9xQOG7KgV41Ye9ZuNM by loweel@boseburo.ddns.net
2020-07-24T22:20:42.651598Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@sir your time to shine, sir: show me your amazing git repo with the wonderful code you wrote in the language of your choice.
(DIR) Post #9xQPAehDdtewL24tcG by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-07-24T22:29:55Z
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@loweel it is quite easy for you to find your own way to code I have written with little intervention on my part, get to it
(DIR) Post #9xQPJUWsoN0HPfSNaS by loweel@boseburo.ddns.net
2020-07-24T22:32:34.315600Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@sir yet another one who thinks to be a celebrity….perhaps, your code just sucks. Bye.
(DIR) Post #9xQPle6KojD5CwSpc0 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-07-24T22:34:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@loweel or maybe I have links to it in my fucking bio you dip
(DIR) Post #9xQnJ1fwUGv4pA0NWa by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-07-25T03:01:20Z
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@mgrondinUnpopular opinion: start with Java 7. It has static types, like C and C++ so it'll be easier to keep track of what is what, and it'll teach you to better structure your code. But unlike C and C++, it has a garbage collector, so you don't need to worry about allocating freeing memory.OTOH, Java is a bit too stubborn on object-oriented programming...Maybe Golang would be another good candidate? Haven't used it much though, so can't tell for sure.@sir
(DIR) Post #9xQnjLGsFmZb80pP1s by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-07-25T03:05:20Z
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@wolf480pl @mgrondin Go is one of the best programming languages around, which is not an endorsement or praise
(DIR) Post #9xQnxojxU7osZyKnOi by dave@gleasonator.com
2020-07-25T03:08:46.842676Z
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@sir I mean, that seems like both endorsement and praise. @wolf480pl @mgrondin
(DIR) Post #9xQoR4ocnROopkT8W8 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-07-25T03:09:11Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@dave @wolf480pl @mgrondin in fact it's a scathing damnation of the entire software ecosystem
(DIR) Post #9xQoaEdxcqMfv9qdkm by dave@gleasonator.com
2020-07-25T03:15:44.544126Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sir Really wish Mastodon supported emoji reacts so I wouldn't have to manually tell you I got a good chuckle out of this.
(DIR) Post #9xQudsIdF1oXVOzSyG by progo@noagendasocial.com
2020-07-25T04:23:35Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@daveUhm... lol? That's 3 bytes. :^b@sir
(DIR) Post #9xQwJlHbop7prR366y by dave@gleasonator.com
2020-07-25T04:42:24.647612Z
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@progo I mean, I could have also just used the emoji dropdown to leave a laughing emoji in response, but at that point you might as well just leave a simple like to save everybody time and be done with it. Really I commented because I think emoji reacts are a great feature that should be universally supported, but as a former Gablin I remember the time when Gab had non-standard features and also didn't federate properly, and I remember how that could create some misunderstandings.When I was on Gab I sometimes wouldn't get notifications when someone from another instance liked my post, but I didn't know about federation issues, so I thought I was being ignored, or the other person thought my posts sucked. Knowing now that it was just a misunderstanding caused by federation issues, I have to think twice about using emoji reacts because I know Mastodon doesn't support them. @sir
(DIR) Post #9xTaIs0nuCtpmvd4ca by fubar@freeradical.zone
2020-07-26T11:18:01Z
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@sir Most folks I know who write games use C++. They seem to find it a good balance between ANSI C and coding ease... Not so much anyone who codes anything else though. Perhaps it just has it's place?
(DIR) Post #9xTafqmucfUueV5bJA by fubar@freeradical.zone
2020-07-26T11:20:23Z
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@sir @hyphen @mgrondin I'd tentatively suggest that if your aim is getting into scientific programming your first language should be FORTRAN, definitely not C...
(DIR) Post #9xThg0WJ8cQ6W0LQa8 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-07-26T12:41:21Z
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@fubar game programmers are among the least skills programmers I've ever worked with and on average game code is toxic waste. A game doesn't have to be efficient, or maintainable, or simple, or elegant, or small, it just has to ship on time.
(DIR) Post #9xThzidfKWOeqhBYhs by fubar@freeradical.zone
2020-07-26T12:44:42Z
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@sir Woah, that's pretty harsh. These folks I'm talking about have always been good coders, for like 25+ years already, in gaming and in other fields (mostly math + networking) but they use C++ specifically for games, not other areas.
(DIR) Post #9xTiTKYVR3BkqMtMZ6 by fubar@freeradical.zone
2020-07-26T12:47:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir I mean doing the math underlying second life efficiently certainly required skills for example.
(DIR) Post #9xTiTLCD3QwopVT4S0 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-07-26T12:50:17Z
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@fubar yes, math skills, not programming skills.
(DIR) Post #9xTjv7dd9g6MqN6Ywi by fubar@freeradical.zone
2020-07-26T13:05:56Z
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@sir I disagree. Programming efficient mathematics requires knowledge of how information is placed onto memory, and how to parallel schedule etc. That requires a lot of knowledge of computers in general and how to exploit certain features. Either way, none of my programmer friends are average, thank goodness. From chemistry to systems to networking to crypto. They each make their own choices re: appropriate lang, and sometimes a project already has a language, so you contribute in that
(DIR) Post #9xTwC4zBT7HKzT2S80 by hyphen@anime.website
2020-07-26T15:25:08.281733Z
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@fubar @sir you guys reminded me of this talk: https://invidio.us/rX0ItVEVjHcI've been meaning to rewatch it but it slipped away from my mind months ago
(DIR) Post #9xTwemVzDpZI6N4GkC by crunklord420@kiwifarms.cc
2020-07-26T15:30:20.396745Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@hyphen @fubar @sir this video changed the way I program gayms
(DIR) Post #9xTwiKrBznFdTqgJLE by hyphen@anime.website
2020-07-26T15:30:58.433873Z
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@fubar @sir first 10 minutes of his talk is more-or-less"~70% of our codebase is C++""we try to turn off as many C++ features as possible"
(DIR) Post #9xTyN5YLtqiXqLrizY by crunklord420@kiwifarms.cc
2020-07-26T15:49:30.754445Z
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@sir @fubar don't kid yourself, application development is for mathlets. Call me when you do graphics.
(DIR) Post #9xf7TSpvjHNfRRXKuO by clacke@libranet.de
2020-07-31T13:24:48Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@hyphen @sir @jasper It is my impression that most C++ projects decide on and enforce the subset they will use.
(DIR) Post #9xfBEorbwzMFELayBs by clacke@libranet.de
2020-07-31T12:15:06Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@izarella @sir @AnianZ @hyphen @abortretryfail @mgrondin The CS curriculum of most unis was written in 1987 when Subversion wouldn't yet exist for another 13 years. Before Subversion, version control was something you didn't do unless you were a corporation, a professional-grade free software project or a masochist.If testing is on the curriculum it is NASA 60s style test planning, not automated unit testing, because that didn't become mainstream until 20 years later.Build and release automation also weren't mainstream, so they're not on the curriculum. In fact there is precious little about the software craft at all. To learn programming, vocational schools are a far better place to go than a CS program at a uni.
(DIR) Post #9xfBI8THVSIWuXnRrs by hyphen@anime.website
2020-08-01T01:36:09.108640Z
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@clacke @izarella @AnianZ @abortretryfail @mgrondin sasuga education being so slow