Post 9vVOjWQI8jVcFVSRI8 by AnneBevan@spinster.xyz
(DIR) More posts by AnneBevan@spinster.xyz
(DIR) Post #9vRviHCLmPXGaz6vxo by Ladyfat@spinster.xyz
2020-05-26T09:57:35Z
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One white woman does a bad thing and Twitter is alive with misogyny. But it’s ok, “Karen” isn’t at all misogynistic... 🙄Again for the misogynists at the back; any time you decide a group of women deserve abuse you are a misogynist, regardless of colour, regardless of sex, regardless of class.
(DIR) Post #9vRviLMQItyBVNr2Dg by Ladyfat@spinster.xyz
2020-05-26T10:06:57Z
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Yeah, absolutely no misogyny here at all... 🙄
(DIR) Post #9vRviLkspxXGjFIZLU by Ladyfat@spinster.xyz
2020-05-26T10:11:53Z
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It’s “Just black women showing their frustrations” except you know... most of the posters are young white men showing their hatred of women.
(DIR) Post #9vRviM7ZTbgRrbugi0 by Tania@spinster.xyz
2020-05-26T11:49:14Z
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I just don't understand it. If I don't want to be flattened by a term that includes me in a negative stereotype, why would I use such a term for someone else? Didn't this get taught in childhood?Instead of pretending Karen has some valid meaning, people should just say bitch. It's more honest.@Ladyfat
(DIR) Post #9vRviMQ0N4QemmXPRQ by Ladyfat@spinster.xyz
2020-05-26T12:05:36Z
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In the case of the Central Park women they are currently going after, she has obviously done a bad thing, but the moment people use a term like Karen they make it wider than criticising that one person they create a whole group that they feel are ‘ok to abuse’ and as you say you’d hope that it was covered in school how shockingly wrong that is.I don’t think it’s ever ok to manufacture such a group. I hate to see women particularly throw another group of women to the wolves.TERF is the obvious comparative term. TERFs are considered fine to abuse. @Tania
(DIR) Post #9vRviNqd3ZJtDe0BZw by Hildegarde_de_Bingen@spinster.xyz
2020-05-26T19:59:32Z
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@Ladyfat @Tania , just once, I'd like to see this conversation move towards addressing the behavior that caused this newest woman to be tagged with the name that you're upset about. Just once.Because a lot of Black people deal with white women who perpetuate the abovementioned behavior-- on a daily basis! How would you prefer that the public at large refer to these white women?
(DIR) Post #9vRviOK3IAr6gtlgRM by Ladyfat@spinster.xyz
2020-05-26T20:00:22Z
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As individuals the same way I’d prefer to see black or Asian women referred to. Individuals. @Hildegarde_de_Bingen @Tania
(DIR) Post #9vRviOaMJXtpVTOhrE by Hildegarde_de_Bingen@spinster.xyz
2020-05-26T20:03:31Z
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@Ladyfat @Tania , it would be nice if Black folks received the same courtesy-- but that has never happened. I understand your frustration, but as someone who can count on being called a Nigger Bitch at least once a year-- I'm having a bit of difficulty being particularly sympathetic. I understand where you're coming from, and I'm not saying that all white women are like this-- but again-- this is such a frequent occurrence that it's become a cliche. Hence "Karen".
(DIR) Post #9vRviOwKzpTqbdgG7E by LostInCalifornia@spinster.xyz
2020-05-26T20:26:02Z
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@Hildegarde_de_Bingen @Ladyfat @Tania The "frequent occurrence" are the people singled out by twitter. All the others are ignored.The mob singles out people based on previously held beliefs. That's the essence of the problem. Mob law is never justice.
(DIR) Post #9vRyVmpd9hZqnrDh8S by Hildegarde_de_Bingen@spinster.xyz
2020-05-26T20:57:30Z
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@LostInCalifornia @Ladyfat @Tania I agree with this, totally.
(DIR) Post #9vRzMOQEdlUERiQTQm by LostInCalifornia@spinster.xyz
2020-05-26T21:07:00Z
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@Hildegarde_de_Bingen @Ladyfat @Tania I thought you would. The tactic has been used by racists as well, as you know.I also see Trump and ilk using it, and the oblivious left denouncing him while doing the same. The tactic itself is wrong. Humans are just f*cked sometimes.
(DIR) Post #9vRzf3l9gggpre71Ae by Ladyfat@spinster.xyz
2020-05-26T20:10:48Z
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As I said I would prefer ALL were judged on their individual actions. Generalisation and prejudice is always abhorrent. I do feel it is NEVER right for people to decide that there should be a group of women that it is okay to hate and abuse. You know very well that women aren’t just called Karen for acting in a racist way, the same way women aren’t called whore for being prostituted. It’s an insult and it’s a misogynist insult. @Hildegarde_de_Bingen @Tania
(DIR) Post #9vRzf43aa9R2mojju4 by Ladyfat@spinster.xyz
2020-05-26T20:35:07Z
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Context is after all everything... @Hildegarde_de_Bingen @Tania
(DIR) Post #9vS0cX8i65Ha4OUOGm by Hildegarde_de_Bingen@spinster.xyz
2020-05-26T21:21:05Z
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@LostInCalifornia @Ladyfat @Tania , again, we are TOTAL agreement here. It''s a real medieval witch-hunt mentality.
(DIR) Post #9vS112qrqMARNDpbUG by LostInCalifornia@spinster.xyz
2020-05-26T21:25:21Z
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total agreement.@Hildegarde_de_Bingen @Ladyfat @Tania
(DIR) Post #9vS2QTZFke8nQQHa9g by AnneBevan@spinster.xyz
2020-05-26T20:15:14Z
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@Hildegarde_de_Bingen @Ladyfat @Tania I'm sorry that people call you that and it doesn't look like stopping anytime soon. Many of the men who know that that is horrible behaviour are delighted to call Karen.Does it occur to you that Charles Clymer, It's Ma'am etc, are never called Karen? It's not a calling out of entitled white privilege. It's punching down uppity white women.
(DIR) Post #9vS2QTm0zCLi40Fm2y by Hildegarde_de_Bingen@spinster.xyz
2020-05-26T21:01:02Z
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@AnneBevan @Ladyfat @Tania Well, I guess we can just start calling the woman in this particular case, "Fired"! https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qj48bm/woman-who-called-police-on-black-man-in-central-park-has-been-fired-we-dont-tolerate-racism?utm_source=vicenewsfacebook&fbclid=IwAR35g7la7E5trfEhKw50ziJlbNgXFk9yq_i1Ibk7aKwP-L-SyAQ3rhBpzFo
(DIR) Post #9vS2QU45tyoKy4iDE8 by AnneBevan@spinster.xyz
2020-05-26T21:06:40Z
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@Hildegarde_de_Bingen @Ladyfat @Tania The police said no crime had been committed. NY doesn't have an offence "Wasting police time"?
(DIR) Post #9vS2QUQmXcxW6RKKae by Hildegarde_de_Bingen@spinster.xyz
2020-05-26T21:21:59Z
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@AnneBevan @Ladyfat @Tania - I know some states are moving to make it illegal to call the police on people for no reason. People have been shot behind that kind of crap. It needs to stop.
(DIR) Post #9vS2QUpx235lMV6Qoy by LostInCalifornia@spinster.xyz
2020-05-26T21:41:14Z
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Filing a false complaint is a Class A misdemeanor. It's been on the books for some time. The person falsely charged also has the right to take this civil court for a lawsuit.The problem is that there is interaction between a black man and NYPD in the interim. @Hildegarde_de_Bingen @AnneBevan @Ladyfat @Tania
(DIR) Post #9vS3AeIECsfQ0hKubQ by Hildegarde_de_Bingen@spinster.xyz
2020-05-26T21:49:41Z
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@LostInCalifornia @AnneBevan @Ladyfat @Tania , yep. That should be criminal mischief/hate crime/intention to cause Death via Cop.
(DIR) Post #9vS4FZ4BANgzCbfmEK by LostInCalifornia@spinster.xyz
2020-05-26T22:01:48Z
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@Hildegarde_de_Bingen @AnneBevan @Ladyfat @Tania That's the accusation. It may be true.Do not file false charges against black men. Do not file false charge and use their blackness as a device to make the charge stick. That should be the social contract.However, there is a hint of don't file any charges against black men in the mob. That always leaves me hung up with black women who have a domestic violence committed against them by a black man have nowhere to go. Maya Angelou, raped as a child ending up not speaking out of guilt when the man died (not at the hands of the police, but ... ).Humans are f*cked, I don't have solutions, but I know mobs screaming about Karen won't fix systemic racism in NYPD.
(DIR) Post #9vTvRhKBmHdl1Cn9to by Alicia@neenster.org
2020-05-27T09:58:32Z
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@Ladyfat We here don't judge men on their individual actions. Radical feminism uses class analysis. That is what @Hildegarde_de_Bingen is asking for here. I HATE the Karen trope, and I see it used as an opportunity for a free pass on misogyny. But I also take Hildegarde's point about furthering discussion about race among feminists. @Tania
(DIR) Post #9vTvRkDv03PI0csh2e by grace_hawthorn@spinster.xyz
2020-05-27T14:40:37Z
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@Alicia @Ladyfat @Hildegarde_de_Bingen @Tania I have been thinking about this a lot and i'm not sure i can write it well. So let me preface by saying this isn't about any comments from today, or anyone specifically - it's the middle of some long thinking processes and I might not have finished yet....I hate the "karen" thing and when it's used by men, especially white men, it's the appropriation of Black women's legitimate naming of racism in feminism. And in the US this racism is basically grounded in apartheid, and still structurally there (South Africa, Australia, US - very similar structures around race). and then when white women object to it, we are very close to #NotMyKaren which infuriates me when men do it. It might be a legitimate rejection of the way men use it, but it also closes down the space for Black women to name racism, and that's not ok. And there's something for me about white women shutting the fuck up about racism and listening, and looking inward, hard.My huge issue with this individual woman's actions is that she individually is racist, and at the same time dog-whistled a racist state apparatus - which she can - on the basis of a lie, knowing that it would be believed. It's the definition of privilege, to call down the apparatus of the state in your defence and we see it so clearly when men do it. That not all white women do this, and not all white women would do this doesn't take away from the reality that this is a structural context, and we could. And that's where our (I think) responsibility and accountability sits. We may find it abhorrent and we also need to take on the job of challenging it head on, because this is situational and contextual and it's also situated in a space where the abuse of white women by black men was the excuse for massive abuse of black men. And in a space where white women still use their whiteness and their proximity to white power as their lever. That not all white women do it isn't enough for me (today) to disassociate myself from them. That woman, in short, is my problem.I'd like a different word. "karen" really pisses me off. But i don't object to what it represents, though i don't like it when it's used by men against feminists. It's not their word to use. So where i end up is - i will defend Black women's words to name, call out & challenge white women's racism and I will resist men's attempts to appropriate that & turn it against all of us. Thanks for listening, i think i'm done now 😉
(DIR) Post #9vTvRllzEsFioZpPma by Hildegarde_de_Bingen@spinster.xyz
2020-05-27T16:54:10Z
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@grace_hawthorn @Alicia @Ladyfat @Tania , Thank you, BadFairy , for articulating this in a way I could not. One of the things that disturbs me about this conversation is that the focus on what the white woman did to the Black man, who turned out to be an avid bird-watcher--has been derailed into a treatise on why the "Karen" label is misogynist. What seems to be forgotten is that if the wrong police officers had arrived, the man might now be dead, yet another victim of Murder-By-Cop. There is a very, very long history of this kind of weaponization of the state by (some) white women against Black men in the US. And there seems to be an inability for some white women (even Feminists) to look this issue in the face and call it what it is.
(DIR) Post #9vTvRm2eEva1eFciki by Ladyfat@spinster.xyz
2020-05-27T17:18:03Z
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Since this is obviously aimed at me and because this is likely the last thing I’ll be posting here for a fucking long time, I wanted to reiterate that I never denied that the woman in Central Park did a bad thing, she weaponised a grotesquely racist institution in a grotesquely racist country. This was never in doubt. However, I do still maintain the response to her actions were misogynistic. And with that I leave the entire conversation. Good day to you all. @Hildegarde_de_Bingen @grace_hawthorn @Alicia @Tania
(DIR) Post #9vTvRmMV37SYdouZhA by Alicia@neenster.org
2020-05-27T17:32:56Z
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@Ladyfat I'm not aiming anything at you, but rather, trying to further the discussion as our black sister asked us to do, and grateful to bad fairy for teasing out the complexity so well. @Hildegarde_de_Bingen @grace_hawthorn @Tania
(DIR) Post #9vTvRoL9h5ZYmEIWsS by LostInCalifornia@spinster.xyz
2020-05-27T19:32:17Z
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Early in my twitter career, I had a troll follower pop into my mentions and ask me why feminist organizations (implied white feminism) weren't organizing something over the death of a specific black woman in town. I asked her who she meant. She said NOW. I replied ask them, I'm not even a member at the moment. I wasn't her white woman scapegoat.What clued me off that this was a set-up, was that this was a private account with fewer than 100 followers and a black male "anti-racism" podcaster favorited her tweet. I think the reason I was targeted by "call out culture" was that I tweeted to an account named White Feminist that they were basically a running "dumb blonde" joke.Women are targeted by men online, and sometimes we are targeted by men, in my case, who want to build a career using misogyny as a tool, and specifically in my case, perceived racism as a cover.I think it's important to discuss this, I think it's important to listen, and I think it's also important to remember we all have scars.@Alicia @Ladyfat @Hildegarde_de_Bingen @grace_hawthorn @Tania
(DIR) Post #9vU7Wa2XUL0fK6dB7w by shrikefliesfree@spinster.xyz
2020-05-27T21:47:45Z
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And there is definitely an issue over how a term may have BEGUN and what is WAS used for at the beginning.............and seeing how that same term is being used NOW in a different way by people different from the ones who started using the term first. @Alicia @Ladyfat @Hildegarde_de_Bingen @Tania
(DIR) Post #9vU84D43Pw5luaNKSW by Alicia@neenster.org
2020-05-27T21:53:56Z
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@shrikefliesfree Sure, I think we had that discussion with blackilocks several weeks ago. @Ladyfat @Hildegarde_de_Bingen @Tania
(DIR) Post #9vUzMv2fwWEL5bXLRw by You_cat_to_be_kitten_me@spinster.xyz
2020-05-28T07:23:47Z
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Don't go ☹@Somethings_Not_Right@glindr.org @Camille @AnneBevan @Tania @Hildegarde_de_Bingen @Ladyfat
(DIR) Post #9vUzMvPiYqf6F4JkMi by Camille@spinster.xyz
2020-05-28T07:51:08Z
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She’s gone. I’m really pissed off.She’s never heard of “agree to disagree”??@You_cat_to_be_kitten_me @AnneBevan @Tania @Hildegarde_de_Bingen @Ladyfat
(DIR) Post #9vV25vsNt9R8cEJal6 by You_cat_to_be_kitten_me@spinster.xyz
2020-05-28T08:21:42Z
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I think we all agree that the situation was shit, no one is saying otherwise from what I've seen. We also all agree that racism and misogyny is disgusting.@Camille @AnneBevan @Tania @Hildegarde_de_Bingen @Ladyfat
(DIR) Post #9vVOjWQI8jVcFVSRI8 by AnneBevan@spinster.xyz
2020-05-28T11:38:24Z
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@You_cat_to_be_kitten_me @Camille @Tania @Hildegarde_de_Bingen @Ladyfat The thing is that she was clearly racist. What misogyny did he show?
(DIR) Post #9vVOjWij2CFpAg5A1Y by DollyCat@spinster.xyz
2020-05-28T12:09:44Z
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Well I only seen part of the conversation last night. It seems all hell broke out at one point but from what I gathered it was about the fact that she was lumped under the Karen banner. I couldn't give a shit what anyone calls a person in a certain situation but clearly the men/world/other-women are linking her bad behavior to her being a woman. The implication to me is that all Karens (read that white woman of a certain age) behave like that. It is "othering" groups of people. Like I said earlier... boomer/brexiters/karens etc. As for the individual case I don't think anyone here disagreed that she behaved really badly. But there is a transcript online that is said to have been released by the man himself as to what was said before he even turned the camera on and it was bloody weird. I think if a bloke said to me you will not like what I'm going to do (or words very similar I would have to go look it up again) and then gets dog treats out starts to call the doggie over then yeah... who knows how you would react or feel or what you thought was going on. I would hope I wouldn't react the way she did especially if I lived in a country where the police being called on POC could be deadly. So from what I seen no one is saying it wasn't racist. But they were saying there was more to it than initially met the eye (from his own account even), and it was mostly the weaponizing of the term Karen that was being discussed. He might as well of called her brexiteer... I've seen them blamed for just about everything to. This grouping of people is fucking dumbarsed and just used to shut people up. By calling that woman Karen you are making calling another woman Karen even worse than it already is. Now all Karen's are racist shits? And all middle aged white women are Karens. See how that works. Also all leavers are racist thick twats and all boomers should die I hear. Oh and any woman that questions men being in their spaces is a feminist and all feminists are fucking transphobes therefore anyone that questions is a transphobe!! Instantly dismiss whole bloody groups of people with one label. Fantastic!Now I'm off to grieve as Becs took all the bloody piggies and kitten posters with her when she went. @AnneBevan @You_cat_to_be_kitten_me @Camille @Tania @Hildegarde_de_Bingen @Ladyfat
(DIR) Post #9vVOjXDDCqdmhELVXk by Camille@spinster.xyz
2020-05-28T12:35:25Z
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@Somethings_Not_Right@glindr.org said she didn't see any racism. She said she was uncomfortable with women defending the man's actions, and then she deleted her account. I saw her make no comment on the use of the term 'Karen' - and neither did I, but I said that the actions of the woman in the film were clearly racist, because they were.@DollyCat @AnneBevan @You_cat_to_be_kitten_me @Tania @Hildegarde_de_Bingen @Ladyfat
(DIR) Post #9vVOsXUBYdlu9SZwTA by AnneBevan@spinster.xyz
2020-05-28T12:26:53Z
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@DollyCat @You_cat_to_be_kitten_me @Camille @Tania @Hildegarde_de_Bingen @Ladyfat You don't think that you would have put your dog on the leash?
(DIR) Post #9vVOsXkqYh6Cz8NFRI by DollyCat@spinster.xyz
2020-05-28T12:35:30Z
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What can I say Anne, people are pricks. Got cemetery near us where people walk their dogs (off the leads) and let them shit everywhere without picking up. The woman was a prick even before the other stuff is even considered. Lots are. I also wouldn't say it to any of them around here as I know people can turn on you when confronted (I'm in London), and as a woman I certainly wouldn't start filming them as probably end up with broken phone at best. I can't even begin to imagine filming someone and then telling them they won't like what is going to happen and start calling their dog over to me. So weather I would put the dog back on the lead or not is irrelevant. @AnneBevan @You_cat_to_be_kitten_me @Camille @Tania @Hildegarde_de_Bingen @Ladyfat
(DIR) Post #9vVOsXyJkbsHeug0R6 by Camille@spinster.xyz
2020-05-28T12:36:55Z
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Would you call the cops and say a black man is threatening me? - as opposed to a man is threatening me?@DollyCat @AnneBevan @You_cat_to_be_kitten_me @Tania @Hildegarde_de_Bingen @Ladyfat
(DIR) Post #9vVP2sVmEuuqG1FlRY by DollyCat@spinster.xyz
2020-05-28T12:38:55Z
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Already answered that earlier. @Camille @AnneBevan @You_cat_to_be_kitten_me @Tania @Hildegarde_de_Bingen @Ladyfat
(DIR) Post #9vVPJQrYI3xtQfKdpQ by DollyCat@spinster.xyz
2020-05-28T12:41:54Z
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*shrugs shoulders* I don't know then! @Camille @AnneBevan @You_cat_to_be_kitten_me @Tania @Hildegarde_de_Bingen @Ladyfat