Post 9uoRx9oT0qVRGoqkAS by Horizon_Innovations@linuxrocks.online
(DIR) More posts by Horizon_Innovations@linuxrocks.online
(DIR) Post #9unxBGR65VYhHpAJc0 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-05-07T13:31:24Z
15 likes, 35 repeats
Zoom acquired Keybase today.Keybase helped me to identify a trend in the software industry: using a pretty UI to cover up the disruption of an open ecosystem with a closed, centralized replacement. Keybase seemed cool on the face of it - making encryption easier is a laudible goal, and PGP certainly could use the improvement. But, thanks to Keybase, now I ask different questions upfront.Beware the Keybase formula:1. Integrates with an existing, open ecosystem2. May have open-source clients, but server is closed source and does not federate3. Pretty UI and good marketing4. VC funded
(DIR) Post #9unxEHlnaKEKIBHzLE by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-05-07T13:34:39Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir from zero to EEE?
(DIR) Post #9unxeboNh209yn35we by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2020-05-07T13:39:48.771036Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir Federating doesn't matters much, heck I'd rather see less federating things, specially when privacy is needed.For example: Forums, Blogs/Webcomics, IRC networks, … do not need to be federated, the client can handle multiple hosts fine. But it should speak a common client protocol and be self-hostable.
(DIR) Post #9unxf4xbJpbkNmaMqG by pettter@mastodon.acc.umu.se
2020-05-07T13:36:40Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@sir Embrace, Extend, Extinguish for the modern age.
(DIR) Post #9unxldlGqGZq3Owld2 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-05-07T13:37:02Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
Anyway, the ultimate motivations of Keybase became clear to me a long time ago, and explains very neatly all of their behavior since. I recommend conducting similar motivation-identification exercises for other tools in your life.
(DIR) Post #9unxuu9vFHMBW4tYkC by alsternerd@social.tchncs.de
2020-05-07T13:38:27Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir I ever wondered why I should use it in the first place.If I have a new key, I can distribute it on my site, alongside my mailadress or within the mails I send.You have the oppotunity to get some of sour accounts to API with it, but that wasn't that much trust, either.
(DIR) Post #9uny2MzeRFFOyIeOW0 by aktivismoEstasMiaLuo@activism.openworlds.info
2020-05-07T13:39:35Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@sir #Keybase from day one has always been trying to become a Facebook of sorts. They completely neglect many substantial security problems while chasing the shiny. Just look at the installation script that they expect root to run & be amazed at what they're getting away with. https://dev.lemmy.ml/post/31190
(DIR) Post #9uny9B2PHsCFv3BYOm by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-05-07T13:40:50Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@lanodan IRC networks are already federated, and This Is Good. Note that, importantly, I don't equate federation with activitypub. Federation also doesn't have to be automatic, like Mastodon, it can be up to the admins to have a whitelist of other instances they federate with (like how IRC works). The blogosphere also federates well with things like web rings. Federation can be simple.
(DIR) Post #9unyFuaArlyuuXBuQS by freedcreative@merveilles.town
2020-05-07T13:42:00Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir I have concerns about Open Collective due to pretty much this same list.
(DIR) Post #9unyO7v1AO5qaZrF56 by ignaloidas@mastodon.gamedev.place
2020-05-07T13:44:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir Pretty UI *is* good, but not when it covers up other points. Damn, without pretty UI we couldn't get the commoner to use E2E encyption.
(DIR) Post #9unySzxGCfKXKzEIVM by codesections@fosstodon.org
2020-05-07T13:48:26Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sir > Beware the Keybase formula:1. Integrates with an existing, open ecosystem2. May have open-source clients, but server is closed source and does not federate3. Pretty UI and good marketing4. VC fundedAgreed. And I'd pay *particular* attention to #4.With a normal company, you have to ask "can the current business model make money?" If not, it will change.With a VC-backed company, you have to ask "can the current business model make 10× returns?" If not, it will change.
(DIR) Post #9unygw2RYqqlFGIdXM by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2020-05-07T13:51:26.258143Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir I mean between each other, EFNet and Freenode do not need to federate between each other and tbh they shouldn't. It means a quite different protocol / trust-issues if you mean to federate between your trusted network or the chaos of the internet.And multiple implementations must speak a common client protocol, which for example isn't the case in the fediverse, Mastodon API is mastodon and pleroma, ActivityPub C2S is pleroma and kroeg, meanwhile [friendica, honk, …] have their own protocols.
(DIR) Post #9unypi0T6IVOKfYjz6 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-05-07T13:51:51Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lanodan I agree, but you're missing my point: federation doesn't have to mean federating with everyone. IRC _is_ federated, and it's a better protocol for it. You're adding more meaning to my use of "federation" than there actually is.
(DIR) Post #9unyyXNPzWsfyFVICO by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-05-07T13:53:11Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@lanodan IRC is federated by mutual agreement between server operators in the federation. This Be Good.
(DIR) Post #9unz01uZwu4Sxjj4eu by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2020-05-07T13:54:53.303873Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir Probably but tbh the federation part of IRC doesn't matters much, the centralisation part is more about power, most services are actually on multiple synchronised servers for redundancy.
(DIR) Post #9unz12Wf9PNF9o1Mcy by codesections@fosstodon.org
2020-05-07T13:54:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lanodan @sir > Federating doesn't matters much, heck I'd rather see less federating things, specially when privacy is needed.… But it should speak a common client protocol and be self-hostable.I'd argue that anything that follows an open protocol (and commits to keep following that protocol) *is* federated, even if there's only one implementation right now
(DIR) Post #9unz93iCcmuh9WF67E by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2020-05-07T13:56:31.295352Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@codesections @sir So Unix wall(1) is federated?
(DIR) Post #9unzHILA7X6uq2OPeC by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-05-07T13:54:58Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@lanodan I disagree, but the reasons wrt IRC in particular are subtle and I'd rather not explain too much right now
(DIR) Post #9unzOMDA7uxms41CzI by aktivismoEstasMiaLuo@activism.openworlds.info
2020-05-07T13:55:16Z
0 likes, 3 repeats
@sir indeed. Falsely positioned projects like #Keybase popup routinely. What I find most disturbing is not their existence (the free market is designed to encourage the deception), but rather ppl's inability to spot the red flags. Keybase was throwing up many easily visible red flags & so-called #privacy proponents were blind to them.
(DIR) Post #9unzShIRfs1ZQLYj4K by codesections@fosstodon.org
2020-05-07T13:59:36Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lanodan @sir > So Unix wall(1) is federated?Ok, fine, my definition was too broad :DHow about "anything that, acting as a server, exposes a public client protocol over a shared network and commits to following that protocol is federated (from the perspective of that network)"?
(DIR) Post #9unzb7DBCryY7B6tKi by imacrea@mamot.fr
2020-05-07T13:55:49Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@sir Hi Drew, I'd say that once a company accept VC funding, probability to see company being acquired is high as... this the way VC makes money! This model is rigged. That's when I stopped following Keybase. We got to innovate first on the way this whole economy works. Till it's linked with exponential growth, IMHO we're heading towards a dead end. @write_as is a big inspiration in that way I'd say. I'd be happy to hear from you about other sources of inspiration :)
(DIR) Post #9unzhdbFhVHUIpTowa by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-05-07T13:56:35Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lanodan @codesections I mean... no? It's peer to peer.
(DIR) Post #9unzsS1J5uDzZep5Zg by ailurocrat@scicomm.xyz
2020-05-07T14:02:32Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir vc funded anything ruins it.
(DIR) Post #9unzsln9aEmqtYM4I4 by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2020-05-07T14:04:47.450316Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@codesections @sir So Unix talk(1) or finger(1) is federated?public client protocol: glorified netcatshared network: Unixes on the internetcommits to following that protocol: POSIX + RFCs, maybe?
(DIR) Post #9uo08qcJPZVyUdwzJI by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-05-07T14:06:13Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@lanodan @codesections imo federation is more about distribution of political power than it is about technical design.
(DIR) Post #9uo0EHe4Le9xlgMeKu by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2020-05-07T14:08:40.247678Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sir @codesections Same, which means that to me IRC isn't because netops of the same network tends to be friends or part of the same organisation.
(DIR) Post #9uo0LMiVtFYpWaotiC by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-05-07T14:09:29Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @sir The moment they started being more than just a way to find your friends' PGP pubkeys, I lost interest. Did I miss some earlier drama?
(DIR) Post #9uo0VZuRhCDtKuGrh2 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-05-07T14:09:51Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lanodan @codesections depends on the network. For the big ones, yeah, perhaps.
(DIR) Post #9uo0ZkIozp1KjDeyVU by codesections@fosstodon.org
2020-05-07T14:12:05Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lanodan @sir > So Unix talk(1) … is federated?I'd say that talk(1) (as a technology) is straightforwardly federated, in exactly the same way email is.In practice, it doesn't get used in a way that takes advantage of the federated nature of the technology very often (ever?) which gets into the "distribution of political power" point but, imo, that's separate from whether the technology is federated (though maybe more important!).
(DIR) Post #9uo0b9hI45HrmImFE0 by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2020-05-07T14:12:48.287561Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir @codesections Yeah, EFNet is I think the only exception there.
(DIR) Post #9uo0qFrFRTPJEEdPhA by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-05-07T14:12:46Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@lanodan @codesections nah, there are others besides, I'm not deliberately not mentioning them here
(DIR) Post #9uo0rsGu6dLcelPJZI by aktivismoEstasMiaLuo@activism.openworlds.info
2020-05-07T14:15:22Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wolf480pl @sir Not sure where you enter the timeline, but my 1st look at #keybase was horrific. It's remarkable that they were able to carry on despite this history: https://dev.lemmy.ml/post/31190.
(DIR) Post #9uo0yRLwaUDBCFtaQi by samae@bidule.menf.in
2020-05-07T14:14:04.706086Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@sir also, issued cryptocurrency.
(DIR) Post #9uo1ZHv0cxNCePrqBU by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-05-07T14:23:14Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @sir Well, I started using it in 2014.I do remember the 777 /keybase incident, but the rest of the stuff listed in that post you linked is new to me.At the same time, I'm not surprised.
(DIR) Post #9uo1s8PuB85mgTJ0V6 by aktivismoEstasMiaLuo@activism.openworlds.info
2020-05-07T14:26:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wolf480pl @sir not sure when I 1st encountered Keybase, but the cool feature that sucked me in was that I could send someone with no PGP tools or capability could go a webpage, enter a msg, and get back PGP-encrypted text that can be copied into an email msg.
(DIR) Post #9uo1zPXGvgxfnvDl68 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-05-07T14:27:16Z
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@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @wolf480pl such an experience would terrify me, because it would involve writing a secret message into a web page controlled by a third party
(DIR) Post #9uo1zPodt6r8fnLdAm by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-05-07T14:27:56Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir @aktivismoEstasMiaLuo As with all JS crypto.
(DIR) Post #9uo29ds6U2KvA7qLaa by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-05-07T14:29:19Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
@wolf480pl @aktivismoEstasMiaLuo I wish it was easier to normalize the idea that JS crypto is broken, and get people to think critically about that kind of problem in a more general way
(DIR) Post #9uo2KlijdqpQgslbma by aktivismoEstasMiaLuo@activism.openworlds.info
2020-05-07T14:30:56Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir @wolf480pl That's an evolutionary step far in the future. I told ppl: no plaintext email. If they want to email me, it must be encrypted. That Keybase mechanism was one way to enable normies to msg me. This is just to get ppl to accept that they shouldn't be sending plaintext.
(DIR) Post #9uo2aW31gEyuiRlaue by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-05-07T14:34:40Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir @aktivismoEstasMiaLuo depends on threat model...I think in cases like zerobin, it's not necessairly bad. You still need to trust the service provider, but if you do, it makes it slightly harder for attackers to extract plaintext from the service provider by using software bugs or legal threats.
(DIR) Post #9uo2lQkfi9YrTZNznM by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2020-05-07T14:37:04.303365Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@codesections @sir Unix talk(1) isn't federated at all, sure it's decentralised as fuck, but it's only peer to peer.Like if everyone using email would drop the client-to-server part and use mail(1)/sendmail(1)/… (which is my email setup, with mutt(1) as an interface on top of sendmail(1))To me a federation means: Different organisations/groups of machines with potentially different implementations speaking to each others in both ways (pull and push).So, no email isn't federated, usenet is much more close to that for example (NNTP having both read and push, both of which can be used in servers). And federation tends to mean clear-text until we get something like OpenPGP which isn't a swiss army knife with all the tools and knifes open, like give me OpenPGP being done for just messaging (and with ephemeral/time-locked signing/decryption because then it should be stored in another way) please.
(DIR) Post #9uo2n85u3BvwBp7vxw by aktivismoEstasMiaLuo@activism.openworlds.info
2020-05-07T14:32:01Z
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@wolf480pl @sir I used for ppl who were most resistant to setting up crypto.. who wouldn't consider installing a tool or opening a Hushmail/Protonmail acct.
(DIR) Post #9uo2n8L98W7ux6G6j2 by aktivismoEstasMiaLuo@activism.openworlds.info
2020-05-07T14:35:58Z
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@sir @wolf480pl And in some cases, it was just a psychological tool to guage their resistence. If they also refused the keybase j/s mechanism, then I could rule out effort as being their issue. When my accountant refused to use it, it demonstrated that she had something against crypto entirely.
(DIR) Post #9uo2n8dw0f9htN370i by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-05-07T14:36:54Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @sir Interesting.Did you figure out more specifically what the accountant had against crypto?
(DIR) Post #9uo2w58aPeqpcrePhY by aktivismoEstasMiaLuo@activism.openworlds.info
2020-05-07T14:38:33Z
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@wolf480pl @sir no, she just said "I'm not doing that" in her reply, which she sent in-the-clear with relatively sensitive info about my income
(DIR) Post #9uo3LX1NsWi5LUPwYa by hj@shigusegubu.club
2020-05-07T14:43:12.551112Z
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@lanodan @codesections @sir federation just takes from country power distribution. You could say email is federated because email servers are pretty much their own structures most of the time, operated by their own bodies but connected with each other and abiding to single entity the protocol.fedi on the other hand with "we instance block you" and network ruining feels more like a confederation.image.png
(DIR) Post #9uo3WZwnL93PbcXS0O by indie@ecosteader.com
2020-05-07T14:43:41Z
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@sir Yup, perfect example of caving to the kyriarchy. Keybase.io: always useless, always was useless.
(DIR) Post #9uo3YiwMsIjs4oMUIy by aktivismoEstasMiaLuo@activism.openworlds.info
2020-05-07T14:40:06Z
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@sir @wolf480pl then she never heard from me again. I took my business elsewhere. It's a common problem too. Another accountant had an IT team capable of making the crypto work transparently for her, but she ultimately gave the excuse: "we can't use crypto b/c email will not get checked for malware"
(DIR) Post #9uo3Yj9U5XEMjUUxkW by aktivismoEstasMiaLuo@activism.openworlds.info
2020-05-07T14:42:02Z
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@wolf480pl @sir Crypto is very much appropriate for accountants, & when I impose it on them only a minority of accountants are willing to use it. Lawyers are even worse, & the need for confidentiality is obviously quite high.
(DIR) Post #9uo3YjOjArQLUld8Vc by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-05-07T14:45:31Z
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@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @sir I was suspecting some like "nothing to hide" mentality, or some "crypto<->crime" connection in their mind,but if that happens with lawyers...Like, lawyers are supposed to keep your secrets even if you tell them you did something illegal, right?Why would a lawyer be opposed to encrypting their communications with their client...
(DIR) Post #9uo3oI3qZz6jLSHaRE by aktivismoEstasMiaLuo@activism.openworlds.info
2020-05-07T14:48:19Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@wolf480pl @sir lawyers have a reputation for being low-tech. They also trust the protections of their industry. That is, interception of attorney-client priv. info is illegal and unusable. They overestimate the extent of protection the law offers, and fail to see that technical protection is worthwhile.
(DIR) Post #9uo3tUDumsUIVvTAps by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-05-07T14:49:18Z
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@aktivismoEstasMiaLuo @sir so basically, they're not disillusioned enough?
(DIR) Post #9uo495t9232ffpCFqy by lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me
2020-05-07T14:52:33.165137Z
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@hj @codesections @sir Yes, which is why it depends if it's about politics, technology or politics of technology. (latter should be much more discussed with less flamewars/shitstorms or oligarchy)The political part being reality and technical part being theory.Also I disagree a bit with this graph, international organisation (NATO, EU, UN, …) to me is federalism. I'm more of a confederation or swarm (many small states) kind of person btw.
(DIR) Post #9uo4pkk3WwNuXaHqPA by sir_tronics@noagendasocial.com
2020-05-07T14:57:55Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir thanks for the heads up; just deleted my account.
(DIR) Post #9uo5AjIO6QHg8WLcP2 by hirojin@dev.glitch.social
2020-05-07T15:01:02Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sir i'd put VC funded much higher on that listbut also: offers a way to connect people, with no perceivable moderation toolingthat seems to be an important criteria to maximise user acquisition, with no concern for "collateral damage"
(DIR) Post #9uo5RnVlgJdG8OkF96 by nergal@linuxrocks.online
2020-05-07T15:06:46Z
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@samae this was when I got uncomfortable with keybase. Not at all when the creator refuses to respond to any message on social media or the platform itself. People that I introduced it to had questions that I could not answer. For an identity system based on social media, members were not socializing at all. Felt like a harvester. @sir
(DIR) Post #9uo8QMHvi8nFHBHGlM by lambdatronic@floss.social
2020-05-07T15:38:45Z
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@sir Embrace, extend, extinguish
(DIR) Post #9uoEgt1WMvvjA3ro4u by aktivismoEstasMiaLuo@activism.openworlds.info
2020-05-07T16:50:15Z
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@wolf480pl @sir i think there's a chance the next generation of lawyers will become competent with communication. I heard that law schools have started working encryption into the cirriculum.
(DIR) Post #9uoFeCW9XAF2hrTgoq by kkremitzki@linuxrocks.online
2020-05-07T16:59:34Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sir It's like VC colonialism coming in and selling everybody on the idea of a fancy rail system from the best local natural resources to the ports
(DIR) Post #9uoHDyTbJe8PXOuFSS by rw@shitposter.club
2020-05-07T17:18:44.152825Z
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@sir I have so many thoughts about this due to my relationship with Keybase and their team that I can't share but it is disappointing to see this is the culmination of what I believe was a initially a genuine attempt.
(DIR) Post #9uoJNLaEyPjziYboKe by kawaiipunk@sunbeam.city
2020-05-07T17:41:29Z
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@sir cough Telegram, cough Github
(DIR) Post #9uoPLTiWMTfG5aySDg by puresick@imd.social
2020-05-07T18:47:54Z
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@sir Well, seems like Telegram has a similar formula.
(DIR) Post #9uoRx9oT0qVRGoqkAS by Horizon_Innovations@linuxrocks.online
2020-05-07T19:17:17Z
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@sir thank you, good to know.
(DIR) Post #9uoaRbjkYWqkCBfrNo by rugk@chaos.social
2020-05-07T20:52:55Z
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@sir cough cough #Wire
(DIR) Post #9uoeYVptIGDpjo5v6G by af@social.librem.one
2020-05-07T21:40:09Z
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@sir sounds like matrix to me!
(DIR) Post #9upLyxrW0lawDYiKbQ by momar@layer8.space
2020-05-08T05:45:23Z
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@sir I think a pretty UI & good marketing is the most important part to disrupt anything, including the closed, centralized ecosystem - if there's an open alternative which achieves that, people will use it.
(DIR) Post #9upqrDeMWf1tRfLfZQ by billstclair@impeccable.social
2020-05-08T11:32:42.944405Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@sir Well. That sucks. KeyBase finally made PGP usable by mortals. Now it’s owned by China. They’ve worked hard to make communication secure even if the server is compromised, but now we’ll have to doubt the security of every client release. Of course, you ALWAYS have to do that; security is hard. But now breaches could be intentional. Contact tracing is always a problem with a central server. But this becomes worse when the server is controlled by a state.https://keybase.io/blog/keybase-joins-zoom
(DIR) Post #9uptmy70eZC1xXPec4 by billstclair@impeccable.social
2020-05-08T12:05:31.865403Z
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@LucasMW @sir Some of KeyBase is open source, but they have so many repositories that figuring out what’s what would be a large task.https://github.com/keybase
(DIR) Post #9ur80GwRY8nIdgfUw4 by carcinopithecus@x0r.be
2020-05-09T02:19:29Z
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@af @sir explain? (i tried to use matrix for all of like 20 minutes but haven't touched it since that one time months ago because everyone i wanted to talk to was in discord or otherwise accessible elsewhere)
(DIR) Post #9usTMW0cVDczw61sv2 by BalooUriza@social.tulsa.ok.us
2020-05-09T17:52:29Z
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@sir I think the big takeaways are two fold.1) UI matters. Actually make an effort for people who aren't in your headspace to do what they need to do in your software and get out.2) I can't believe I need to say this but never, ever share your private fucking key.
(DIR) Post #9v01anQhkjzAqvqfWi by scolobb@bidule.menf.in
2020-05-13T09:20:06.475558Z
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@samae @sir OK, I've never used Keybase but thought they were fine and associated with GPG (marketing works apparently even if I'm not a user 🙄). But in fact, what you are saying makes me realize that Zoom and Keybase are actually more birds of a feather than I thought, which explains the buyout and makes it look worse because these two actors join forces.
(DIR) Post #9v0QZuOmr1i520coQS by samae@bidule.menf.in
2020-05-13T11:23:42.083285Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@sir Hey, that's close to how Wire operates, except that it doesn't integrate with an existing open source solution...
(DIR) Post #9wBYw86JG4Z45QgFu4 by kuba@toot.kuba-orlik.name
2020-06-17T20:45:57Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir good old-fashioned embrace, extend, exterminate
(DIR) Post #9wLaktTqsoWHwYtNwm by mel@soc.hyena.network
2020-06-22T16:55:07.687960Z
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@sir Holy SHIT, yeah. Another reason for me to avoid Keybase. I dislike this assimulative behavior greatly.
(DIR) Post #9wMm0V3ujNgFUyMdcW by panina@mastodon.host
2020-05-07T21:26:29Z
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@rugk @sir when you mention it, wire has been giving me the same kinds of creeps...
(DIR) Post #9wMm0VKvi7I8LkKE8u by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-06-23T06:35:37Z
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@panina I abandoned #Wire because it got blocked in China and my VPN service became so unreliable it was effectively useless. But when #PTIO delisted them for setting up a US shell company to receive money from venture capitalists, and I saw them deprioritize work on federation, that was the final nail. Using Riot now and pretty happy with it. It bothers me that New Vector are hoovering up venture capital, but at least Matrix is a federated system with a documented protocol.@rugk @sir
(DIR) Post #9wMnFehfGeS5hKkQ7s by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-06-23T06:49:51Z
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@af Really? I'll grant you point 3), but ...1) a new standard instead of integrating with an existing one2) server is free code and multiple homeserver implementations exist4) Matrix Foundation takes no venture capital. New Vector does, so I'd be cautious about using modular.im . But the juiciest data (private chats) is now E2EE by default, so not much datafarming potential. NV don't own any of the "IP" that would allow future acquirers or investors to dominate Matrix development. @sir
(DIR) Post #9wMzRc9Xm4UaiHFz84 by clacke@libranet.de
2020-06-23T09:06:02Z
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@strypey @sir @af 4) NV owns the developer base and the direction of the project. Is there good reason to consider the MF sufficiently independent from NV?2) Do multiple implementations actually exist? It was a while ago, but last time I looked, the one non-NV implementation was stalled because the protocol documentation was not up to date with the de facto protocol used by Synapse.New funding has allowed New Vector to work more on Dendrite, but will that simply replace Synapse as de facto protocol definition, or will NV keep both and the documentation up to date?
(DIR) Post #9wOEkH2fglAIXQVl9E by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-06-23T23:31:26Z
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@clacke > Is there good reason to consider the MF sufficiently independent from NV?I may be drinking the Kool-aid, but my impression is that NV are aware of the dangers of taking the investor money, and have done everything they can to put MF in charge of the protocol. Not sure who owns the copyrights and trademarks on Riot, Synapse, and Dendrite, but they could be forked at any time by anyone unhappy with the dev direction NV is taking them in.@sir @af
(DIR) Post #9wOFkpP625LJ3ypQVE by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-06-23T23:42:16Z
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@clacke Synapse code being available and Matrix being a federated protocol satisfy @sir 's requirements in point 2). But ...> Do multiple implementations actually existYes. Not sure exactly what plans NV have for Dendrite and Synapse, but there are also Construct:https://github.com/matrix-construct/construct... and Conduit:https://git.koesters.xyz/timo/conduit@af
(DIR) Post #9wOGIlfqPGtpLCqViS by clacke@libranet.de
2020-06-23T23:49:43Z
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@strypey @sir @af Cool! Looks a fair bit better than it did a few years ago then, on all fronts.
(DIR) Post #9wOGSFyH8D1PudzX4y by clacke@libranet.de
2020-06-23T09:14:12Z
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Oh hey, look at that, actually they released specs last month and at least once last year!https://matrix.org/blog/2020/05/27/room-version-6-client-server-r-0-6-1-and-federation-r-0-1-4-spec-releases
(DIR) Post #9wOGSG8YVzFGQWnk6S by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-06-23T23:50:24Z
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@clacke the spec development process for Matrix is managed by the MF, not NV, and happens in the open. So like XEP development at the XMPP Foundation, anyone who is interested can get involved. Not sure if the frequency of bits of the spec being frozen says anything much.
(DIR) Post #9wOGovcEyiohRSUmw4 by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-06-23T23:55:42Z
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@clacke Not sure how much progress has been made on getting Conduit and Construct feature-complete and production-ready, but Dendrite is neither yet. A lot of people argue that Synapse isn't really the latter, and even it's developers admit it's a rough-and-ready prototype, which is why they're developing Dendrite.@sir @af
(DIR) Post #9wOHU2wEesNk1cSFUW by clacke@libranet.de
2020-06-24T00:02:22Z
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@strypey @sir @af Yeah they seem to be betting a lot on Dendrite. IIUC, the p2p Riot is a Riot with an embedded Dendrite.
(DIR) Post #9wOg9l6Rl20TlweamG by borup@mastodon.social
2020-06-24T04:37:07Z
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@sir VC funding is always a warning sign...