Post 9udnzpP1Po0z5e4F7I by awoserra@fosstodon.org
(DIR) More posts by awoserra@fosstodon.org
(DIR) Post #9ucP7oX3qKIghAZxcu by awoserra@fosstodon.org
2020-05-01T21:51:00Z
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@kev I submitted a report on images from a very offensive domain (https://cheap.negroes.forsale/neckbeard/6dcbb9465c837d856c4b8e1ca54840d52bcebd06c28338f08f77c87399d45f1c.png) almost a week ago, have not heard from anyone. Wondering if this is a social network that lets this kind of garbage slide?
(DIR) Post #9ucP7oil8perHS3IrQ by awoserra@fosstodon.org
2020-05-01T22:08:23Z
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@kev like... how do you not have a keyword filter you can wave a wand at and make these things automagically disappear?
(DIR) Post #9ucP7osgXvb7mEhEKe by awoserra@fosstodon.org
2020-05-01T22:12:17Z
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@kev cc @mike
(DIR) Post #9ucP7p4NqQxIMWAZZA by kev@fosstodon.org
2020-05-01T23:50:23Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@awoserra few things to cover here...1) we don’t follow up with people who make reports. We receive too many for that to be feasible.2) you can filter out keywords from the preferences menu. There’s also blocking and muting.3) one persons idea of offensive vs someone else’s are different. We try not to block where possible, as we have nearly 10,000 members. We block the worst stuff, but tend to not take action against this kind of thing. That’s what personal moderation is for.@mike
(DIR) Post #9ucR8ivcMbIDVrcv2W by awoserra@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T00:13:03Z
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@kev @mike Well, something to consider from a user perspective then:1) You can automate responses based on action taken.2) Placing the onus on users to filter this stuff exposes them to it FIRST and thrusts on them the burden of blocking "too many for that to be feasible".3) This is not so subjective... advertising cheap negroes for sale is likely not just offensive, but probably illegal where your server is located.You need better policy.
(DIR) Post #9ucRliS848RDKcQVmK by mike@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T00:20:14Z
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@awoserra It should also be noted that the domain in question is not a Mastodon instance, so on our end of things we're not able to block it. @kev
(DIR) Post #9ucRwtLhtS4MJNkfTs by awoserra@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T00:22:11Z
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@mike @kev Then perhaps you can take it up with whoever maintains the server you're connected to and insist they block that domain.Just do something.
(DIR) Post #9ucSIflb4avQYcFPGK by awoserra@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T00:26:08Z
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@mike @kev Then it would seem to me you need the backend code updated to provide those mechanisms. You are responsible for the content flowing through your instance. As ridiculous as that sounds, it's also the truth.
(DIR) Post #9ucTQWvbuzL7PrF3fE by opal@pl.wowana.me
2020-05-02T00:38:48.140199Z
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@kev @awoserra @mike yet you block @wowaname be consistent and transparent, for fucks sake.
(DIR) Post #9ucTc9lbrCkH3d6kfw by opal@pl.wowana.me
2020-05-02T00:40:57.383393Z
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@awoserra @kev @mike as for you, no, a fucking third-party domain name most likely does NOT violate the law where fosstodon is located, and if you need someone to baby you, theres plenty other instances that give you the echo chamber you seem to crave. you wont be missed
(DIR) Post #9ucTscH5dLzc6dgIM4 by opal@pl.wowana.me
2020-05-02T00:43:51.464179Z
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@awoserra @kev @mike you getting offended by an instance whose name is intended to be inflammatory is adorable. YHBT YHL HAND.
(DIR) Post #9ucVCEv6H8YpQ1JhDs by sim@shitposter.club
2020-05-02T00:58:45.519751Z
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@awoserra @kev @mike "Placing the onus on users to filter this stuff exposes them to it FIRST and thrusts on them the burden of blocking "too many for that to be feasible"."Is it not better for users to be able to decide this for themselves even if it is a burden than to have someone decide it all for them? What if you don't agree with a decision made? Or what if your content gets filtered out because an admin/mod doesn't agree with an opinion you have? Not to mention that it is a burden you are placing on the admins, how can they know what every user on the instance doesn't want to see? It really helps to have individual filters for this purpose that the user can decide for themselves.
(DIR) Post #9ucXVWYb7pHJWt7AYa by hakui@tuusin.misono-ya.info
2020-05-02T01:24:39.288000Z
3 likes, 2 repeats
@awoserra @kev @mike would it be less offensive if they weren't cheap
(DIR) Post #9ucXoSEJRCcdbweXvk by awoserra@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T01:14:40Z
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@sim @kev @mike It's simply not so subjective... you don't even have to target particular examples if you have a disallowed word list to preempt obvious shit like this. All you have to decide from a policy standpoint is what goes into it. And that is only one mechanism I can think of off the top of my head.But, if what you are advocating for is freedom to be offensive toward a particular race, as in this instance, then defend not doing anything about it...
(DIR) Post #9ucXoSRQeR78Gcn1NI by sim@shitposter.club
2020-05-02T01:28:04.268512Z
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@awoserra @kev @mike What about posts that get caught in the crossfire because of a word filtered out? What if you use one of the words but your post vanishes even though it wasn't what the filters were meant for? Plus, in the case of this one... you can't read minds about what people will create as a domain name. Before you catch it to filter it, users will already be exposed to it. It might even be a requirement so that someone can report it if mods don't get to it first. It does seem like a lot of work for a small team of people to do, and often admins and mods are moderating as volunteers. They don't get paid. It doesn't seem fair to put extra burdens on them, especially when you have the tools to sort out what content you see for yourself.It really is subjective. What is acceptable content to you won't be acceptable to someone else out there. In fact, your very opinions could be seen as offensive to someone out there. If that were the admin, then you'd see your posts filtered rather than filtering out what you don't want to see or be burdened with. It's very easy for rules like this to turn against users.
(DIR) Post #9ucZM4KIurjFHB32HY by awoserra@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T01:34:53Z
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@sim @kev @mike You're conflating very different issues. If a moderator/admin/w/e wants to "shape traffic", you'll probably not even know it.If a moderator/admin/w/e transparently says, "that's offensive, I'm banning that domain"... These are different cases entirely.
(DIR) Post #9ucZM4W0DN5PrSWNW4 by sim@shitposter.club
2020-05-02T01:45:21.080467Z
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@awoserra @kev @mike I'm not really sure how different those are given that you'll probably not notice until it is too late when a domain is banned or a post filtered. You don't even have to be transparent about these things as an admin. At the end of the day though, you are burdening admins with making the choices you want them to make. But it's not as though they can read your mind to know what you don't want to be burdened with seeing and then catch it all in advance. Not to mention that someone else on the instance might want to be burdened with content you don't want to see. That might even end up being the admin who is choosing what to filter. But what happens if it isn't to your liking? Isn't it better to be able to decide this for yourself? Why vote for something that can easily be turned against you so you can't even participate when you have the tools to filter your own timeline to your liking so you can participate?
(DIR) Post #9ucc3yzMK60bN4JoXo by awoserra@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T02:08:30Z
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@sim @kev @mike This grabbed my attention in your textwall rationalization: "you are burdening admins with making the choices you want them to make."Incorrect, I am adding my voice to every other rational being that say "WE will not tolerate this".Freedom does not imply freedom to oppress and abuse others based on race.You wanna be another head in the sand while they burn bodies upwind, I'll take my leave.
(DIR) Post #9ucc3zJD8Ht8MdbfUG by sim@shitposter.club
2020-05-02T02:15:41.827974Z
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@awoserra @kev @mike What is the difference? You still want the admins to figure out what you want to filter so you aren't burdened with doing that. Even though you are burdening admins with doing it for you.What about the freedom to oppress and abuse you if you don't go along with whatever the admin wants to filter? That's where it could lead. The fact it hasn't been filtered could even mean the admin doesn't want to and you are against that. How does this work? I still think it is far better to give you the freedom to filter what you don't want to see and let others have that freedom to decide than to decide for everyone.
(DIR) Post #9udKraZDnASS5iYbp2 by awoserra@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T02:09:59Z
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@sim @kev @mike It starts somewhere. This place is good as any to stop it.
(DIR) Post #9udKrapAprDatC1Lge by awoserra@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T04:21:02Z
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@sim @kev @mike Like seriously, check your priorities... is being edgey on the internet from behind an avatar worth lowering our guard against the hate history has shown us can take hold?
(DIR) Post #9udKrb43wV7zdMzEtU by sim@shitposter.club
2020-05-02T10:37:40.476118Z
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@awoserra @kev @mike Maybe you need to check your priorities. Are edgy posters who will probably be gone in a few weeks when they realise no one is giving them the attention they crave worth the potential that these measures can be used to abuse or oppress minorities and everyone else? Are you positive it will only ever be used how you want it to be? And what if that is actually abusive towards minorities?The fediverse has been around a long time. Edgy people get bored and go where they know they will get a reaction. Give it to them and they stay until they aren't fed. As someone else said: "The trash takes itself out." All you have to do is ignore them. Give them nothing to talk about. They move on. It's really not worth admins deciding who to block or filter for you which can be heavily abused. What was mentioned to you is really the best case scenario, giving that power over to the users to decide for themselves. Users are empowered to filter in the way that best suits their use-case rather than admins butchering that. Because no admin can get it right for every user. Why don't you want users to be empowered in this way?
(DIR) Post #9udL0yDjDd503ayf7g by 1iceloops123@shitposter.club
2020-05-02T10:39:23.065736Z
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@awoserra @kev so what leave them bee
(DIR) Post #9udLCVD4uAOrYdAjsO by 1iceloops123@shitposter.club
2020-05-02T10:41:27.721349Z
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@sim @awoserra @kev @mike if they are offended they should join more asinine instances like mastodon.social or this side the ones that keep blockinge everyone.
(DIR) Post #9udLjTuKlfVf4h894q by 1iceloops123@shitposter.club
2020-05-02T10:47:25.700698Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@awoserra @sim @kev @mike meet me in gay baby jail bruh.
(DIR) Post #9udnXnPzCS64pL9TKC by geekgonecrazy@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T05:46:23Z
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@awoserra @mike @kev this is the beauty of mastodon. If you don't like it there are smaller instances that might be more suited to your tastes. Or even your own if you want to control everything But mastodon isn't twitter. Its not centralized. You can't just expect the instance admins to block everything you don't like.
(DIR) Post #9udnXnzn3KjkcNu48G by awoserra@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T15:24:33Z
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@geekgonecrazy @mike @kev @pcrock Sure a lot of rationalizations for not directly confronting racism.I generally attribute this to a) cowardice or b) indifference.
(DIR) Post #9udnXonm3Uif7PHz2e by geekgonecrazy@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T15:50:03Z
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@awoserra @mike @kev that’s a link to a minio instance a place files are hosted. Not a mastodon instance. If it were I can imagine it would be blocked as that control is available to the admins. Even if they blocked the domain at server level to prevent the server from being able to see it.. you would still see it. This is just how mastodon works.This isn’t twitter where everyone jumps on bandwagon and feels they must show outrage. If you want to do something about it, do it like suggested
(DIR) Post #9udnXq7f92DrDNbNgG by awoserra@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T15:52:43Z
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@geekgonecrazy @mike @kev They can warn the people who are linking to the site, and ban them if they persist.There are lots of mechanisms here, doing nothing is the worst choice a server admin can make.
(DIR) Post #9udnXqtAIQDhahpJiq by awoserra@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T15:54:20Z
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@geekgonecrazy @mike @kev And yes, if they can block the domain at the server level, they should. People will stop hosting images on a domain that doesn't actually get to send bits.
(DIR) Post #9udnXrkh5P2QGis49o by kev@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T15:58:39Z
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@awoserra so where does it stop? Shall we block Google at a domain level because there's likely to be racist images on their domains somewhere?Shall we block Imgur? Reddit? Facebook? Twitter? DuckDuckGo?Get a grip.@geekgonecrazy @mike
(DIR) Post #9udnzpP1Po0z5e4F7I by awoserra@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T16:03:51Z
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@kev @geekgonecrazy @mike If doing nothing to confront clear racism on the services you administer is your conclusion, it is you who should get a grip.
(DIR) Post #9udoDXMxG9PtDNdau8 by kev@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T16:06:23Z
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@awoserra if you don't like how we manage the instances, you're welcome to move - that's the beauty of Mastodon.@geekgonecrazy @mike
(DIR) Post #9udoNoozEBKkEmeTXE by awoserra@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T16:08:17Z
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@kev @geekgonecrazy @mike I'd rather impress on you the obligation to confront racism and indifference to racism. (Like I am doing here)
(DIR) Post #9udoznRKoQiKxOhL7o by awoserra@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T16:14:44Z
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@kev @geekgonecrazy @mike If the problem turns out to be backend code or admins who wanna dictate their own little microcosm, then moving instances is going to accomplish what exactly?
(DIR) Post #9udpFggzfPVefCbFmi by kev@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T16:17:43Z
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@awoserra I don’t know, and I don’t really care if I’m honest.Who knows, maybe you will be lucky and find an instance that has an admin who is willing to block half the Internet for fear of their being racism, or any other form of badness anywhere.Good luck.@geekgonecrazy @mike
(DIR) Post #9udpNWiYdXX82n4MhE by awoserra@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T16:19:09Z
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@kev @geekgonecrazy @mike Text book indifference... maybe you shouldn't admin a social network.
(DIR) Post #9udpUOmsWI6xTYMpZg by awoserra@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T16:20:01Z
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@kev @geekgonecrazy @mike No, you twist and manipulate the issue... I'm asking for action one one particularly offensive host, not the "half the internet". Fuck, be reasonable at least.
(DIR) Post #9udpagkCfZhcuC7CYC by awoserra@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T16:20:34Z
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@kev @geekgonecrazy @mike No, you twist and manipulate the issue... I'm asking for action on one particularly offensive host, not the "half the internet". Fuck, be reasonable at least.
(DIR) Post #9ue43RpEcCgEOL4my8 by awoserra@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T16:23:24Z
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@kev @geekgonecrazy @mike You've spent far more time defending inaction to me, rather than just issue a single warning and insist that users who continue using it are no longer welcome to be a part of a social network that will not tolerate racism.
(DIR) Post #9ue43RzryfBevK3HXs by dwagenk@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T17:23:30Z
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@awoserra @kev @geekgonecrazy @mike This really is devastating! I was glad when fosstodon got the CoC and one prominent clarification in there was, that fosstodon is not a free-speech-zone, yet the request to block a racist URL is opposed by the admins sounding like the "free speech is more important than XYZ" arguments.I get, that it's hard moderating an instance that has become big, but what I read here doesn't sound like "Provide a friendly, safe, and welcoming environment" (CoC)
(DIR) Post #9ue43SBDIUGFUVMLE8 by kev@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T19:03:46Z
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@dwagenk we always moderate that kind of thing within the fediverse. We block instances and accounts that violate our CoC. This particular post was not that. It was a meme of a joke about COVID.Bad taste, yes, block worthy? No. Like I said earlier, the rationale we take is to only block when necessary. Personal moderation as to what you find offensive is key here. That’s why personal moderation tools exist - so people can tailor the experience. 1/2@awoserra @geekgonecrazy @mike
(DIR) Post #9ue4Gl66H1N5vYJPIO by dwagenk@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T17:29:03Z
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@awoserra @kev @geekgonecrazy @mike I like it here on fosstodon for the most part, but every now and then there's occasions like this, that make me consider moving to an instance that is stricter in this regard. The CoC is good, but achieving the goals therein requires activly making it safe and welcoming and not just hoping it's safe and welcoming enough and people use the block or mute function enough to keep it that way.
(DIR) Post #9ue4GlGNenawRR7cJs by kev@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T19:06:13Z
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@dwagenk We take our CoC seriously, but that meme is hosted on a site outside of the fediverse, there’s nothing we can do about that.The person who posted it has posted some stuff that I would consider border line, so I’ve added them to my watch list last week.To reiterate - there’s absolutely nothing we can do about a domain name that is hosted outside of the fediverse.So can we all just chill out now please? FFS.@awoserra @geekgonecrazy @mike
(DIR) Post #9ue4Hs69jJPlvhrvSi by kev@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T19:06:29Z
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@dwagenk @awoserra @geekgonecrazy @mike just to add, the person is also NOT on Fosstodon.
(DIR) Post #9ue4TMwvMmgMnY27Yu by geekgonecrazy@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T19:08:18Z
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@kev @dwagenk @awoserra @mike big distinction! Even less you can do about it. Those people are not bound by code of conduct of this instance
(DIR) Post #9ueCY68M75Dpj7970S by dwagenk@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T20:07:50Z
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@geekgonecrazy @kev @awoserra @mike Thanks for continuing this thread in a calmer way than before. Some aspects just became clear to me with the last few posts.
(DIR) Post #9ueCY6OJ9lyyWabqs4 by mike@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T20:38:59Z
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@kev @dwagenk @geekgonecrazy @awoserra I'm going to summarize this, hopefully for clarity, in an effort to put this whole thread to bed. For the record, this is exactly why we don't discuss reports.A report was sent to us on an offensive domain name. The user in question was not on Fosstodon, and did not themselves host the domain.The image was not hosted on Fosstodon.<1/?>
(DIR) Post #9ueCp8qVHbzd3pvHQe by mike@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T20:42:09Z
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@kev @dwagenk @geekgonecrazy @awoserra Mastodon does not currently have tools to block specific strings of text from appearing in Toots on an instance level.The suggestion that we make changes to the base code of Mastodon to do this isn't a feasible solution in the long term, and has real consequences from a censorship perspective.The unwillingness to make changes to the base code of Mastodon to remove strings from toot does not imply we don't find this domain name offensive.<2/?>
(DIR) Post #9ueD3HhHAgi4ZBLnIu by mike@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T20:44:41Z
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@kev @dwagenk @geekgonecrazy @awoserra What was done? One, we reported the domain to the service hosting it. We don't know if they'll take action against the domain since the content hosted isn't the offensive material, just the domain itself.Two, we reported the domain to the registrar that was used to register the domain. Again, we can't make any promises that action will be taken by them.<3/?>
(DIR) Post #9ueDDYQznTBJN9dHrk by mike@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T20:46:34Z
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@kev @dwagenk @geekgonecrazy @awoserra Hopefully this puts all this to bed. If you have any questions about what we did and why, please feel free to DM either Kev or I.If you feel that the actions we've taken are not appropriate or insufficient, I'm sorry to hear that. We all are doing our best to keep Mastodon and Fosstodon specifically a great place to be. We'll continue to do that to the best of our abilities moving forward.<4/4>
(DIR) Post #9ueQuLKrfm8CbSUxzU by awoserra@fosstodon.org
2020-05-02T23:19:55Z
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@mike @kev @dwagenk @geekgonecrazy I like to think mechanisms like that can include requisite reporting/auditing.You'll never find solutions in code, only how people wield it.