Post 9ttugdd3VEbECQ0u8G by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
(DIR) More posts by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
(DIR) Post #9tspwz1t0gr0HBduLo by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-04-10T00:13:46Z
5 likes, 7 repeats
Matrix is a classic walled garden - it can connect to other systems, but provides no means for users of those other systems to connect to it. Matrix users can join IRC channels, but IRC users cannot join Matrix rooms.And people wonder why I hate Matrix users on IRC, with all their dumb Matrix square-peg-round-hole nonsense messages
(DIR) Post #9tsqD6WEvpiq8cWkrI by 0orpheus@niu.moe
2020-04-10T00:17:29Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir I'm not sure I understand the argument, outside of the fact that Matrix/IRC bridges are pretty shitty for IRC users.Would you expect XMPP users to be able to join IRC channels and vice-versa? Or being able to send an email to a Mastodon account?
(DIR) Post #9tsqYqKpmfYaJbYgEK by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-04-10T00:21:22Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@0orpheus it's rather that Matrix users are themselves shitty IRC users. The client is not well behaved on IRC and does not fit into the IRC model properly, and it makes Matrix users stick out like a sore thing and annoys IRC natives.If you're gonna interop with something, you should try to avoid annoying the people you're interoping with.
(DIR) Post #9tsqhk9E9oGFjSNCm8 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-04-10T00:22:03Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@0orpheus oh, and that it only goes one way says a lot about their priorities for interopability. They're not trying to interoperate with IRC, they're trying to subsume it.
(DIR) Post #9tsqn2NPoIVBiRXAQa by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-04-10T00:23:19Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sheogorath it's really goddamn convenient that they can prioritize features which bring IRC users to Matrix but not features which bring Matrix users to IRC
(DIR) Post #9tsqxa3rQVSJ5BPmkK by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-04-10T00:23:41Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sheogorath it's really goddamn convenient that they can prioritize features which bring Matrix users to IRC but not features which bring IRC users to Matrix
(DIR) Post #9tsrJ4B0eacoZ50Ioi by 0orpheus@niu.moe
2020-04-10T00:29:46Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sir Yeah no, Matrix users in IRC is definitely an unpleasant experience. It's actually why I specifically don't use an IRC bridge on my server.On the other hand, I feel like some of that is related to the fact that IRC is an old protocol and system that, like it or not, didn't age quite as well as a lot of people hoped in the sense that it doesn't support many features that "modern synchronous chat systems" support as a base measure. You can see it by comparing the experience of the IRC bridge versus almost any other (double-puppeting) bridge: IRC is shitty for other IRC users, every other bridge the matrix user is entirely unnoticeable.
(DIR) Post #9tsrPZzdH1ZeymmvAm by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-04-10T00:30:44Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@0orpheus the features which define a "modern" chat "experience" are not desirable on IRC, and I am glad that they are not present
(DIR) Post #9tsrQzxuCATrouemhM by 0orpheus@niu.moe
2020-04-10T00:31:12Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir I don't think that's in good faith towards Matrix; no one asked that of XMPP to my knowledge.
(DIR) Post #9tsrVGpZQoGvHnnMzw by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-04-10T00:31:56Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@0orpheus XMPP never tried to force itself into the IRC ecosystem as a cancerous extension of it
(DIR) Post #9tsrW4MDIEUwtERdBI by 0orpheus@niu.moe
2020-04-10T00:32:07Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sir That's fair, and as someone who uses both I agree that there's reasons to not have those "features". That's why I put "modern synchronous chat systems" in quotes. Unfortunately, pragmatically speaking, those features are what a lot of users expect.
(DIR) Post #9tsrdZoejEXoU6KPZY by 0orpheus@niu.moe
2020-04-10T00:33:28Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sir Fair, I get what you mean, though I'm don't share your sentiment for it.
(DIR) Post #9tsriK6uY5pvDr88qO by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-04-10T00:32:34Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@0orpheus I don't know why people feel that this argument is meaningful or that I should give a fuck about what users expect
(DIR) Post #9tssPV2XmxyBZWfxCK by 0orpheus@niu.moe
2020-04-10T00:42:07Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@sir Honestly "expect" was probably a bad word choice and "want" is a better one.But yeah, you don't have to give a shit about what users expect. But software without features users expect or want ends up being a pretty user-less, masturbatory experience. I think the IRC bridge makers should work harder to be better citizens in IRC, but the doesn't make the whole project shitty or a walled-garden.
(DIR) Post #9tssYm8RbBLPCKrHiy by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-04-10T00:43:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@0orpheus okay, walled garden has a specific definition and it's questionable to call Matrix one. But Embrace/Extend/Extinguish is very obviously applicable to Matrix
(DIR) Post #9tssqujAOKa13igU0u by 0orpheus@niu.moe
2020-04-10T00:47:05Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir I don't know how applicable it is, but I think yeah if the bridge makers (specifically for bridges like IRC which is Matrix team approved) keep being bad citizens that's getting obviously into EEE territory.I'll give that I've been comparing it to XMPP but as far as I know XMPP never had a bloody marketing team behind it.
(DIR) Post #9tssxOwWxo8CVa1pei by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-04-10T00:47:37Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@0orpheus Matrix's behavior and faults make sense if you understand how the organization works. I will probably write up a blog post at some point
(DIR) Post #9tstCN8JyUxpEsgLs8 by 0orpheus@niu.moe
2020-04-10T00:50:58Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir I look forward to reading it!
(DIR) Post #9tstgFQ5DZb80HEggC by Lucky@kiwifarms.cc
2020-04-10T00:56:23.046264Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sir @0orpheus Synapse is also poorly designed and terribly buggy according to every single person I meet running a matrix synapse instance.
(DIR) Post #9tsvZ7mdPX5ECXW0pM by trobador@mastodon.social
2020-04-10T01:09:36Z
0 likes, 2 repeats
@sir to be honest I find things like Matrix and Slack quite stressful, mostly because of one being always reachable and ones messages being eternally available. IRC is more like a pub, where you can go when you want to have interesting conversations with strange people or just have a good time with your mates. Oh yes... back then logging chats was considered rude by most 👴
(DIR) Post #9tswaAKRX6ByL5OC5g by progo@noagendasocial.com
2020-04-10T01:25:16Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir Does Matrix peer with IRC networks to relay messages as coming from the original sender's name? Does it join IRC with a limited access relaybot that prefixes all forwarded messages with the original sender's name as part of the message body?
(DIR) Post #9tswgnAk1hdmY10kWu by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-04-10T01:25:37Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@progo the former, which helps a lot tbf
(DIR) Post #9tt1OxuRrnDwPHi1cu by feoh@cybre.space
2020-04-10T02:21:52Z
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@sir Also is about as user hostile as they come.
(DIR) Post #9tt1m98IIx8hsMEsDI by haskal@cybre.space
2020-04-10T02:26:16Z
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@sir if matrix allows bridging to other services i really don't see how it's a walled garden ?this is the whole point of matrix, it allows you to use matrix while still retaining the ability to connect to other services. interoperability is like, one of their major goals
(DIR) Post #9tt1rsIVoJFPOqkXvU by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-04-10T02:26:46Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@haskal it can connect OUT to other services, but other services cannot connect IN to it. I can't use my IRC client to connect to Matrix, but I can use Matrix to connect to IRC.
(DIR) Post #9tt2DolbcObkouoz5c by oats@mastodon.social
2020-04-10T02:30:58Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir sorry, not sure I understand. What do matrix messages bridged to IRC do that's irritating?
(DIR) Post #9tt2drqOnd2xtSU7HM by amolith@social.nixnet.services
2020-04-10T02:36:44Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@0orpheus @sir As do I!
(DIR) Post #9ttB23R29iKaQQfGRU by me@s.pnn.sh
2020-04-10T04:07:33.632255Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir @haskal What would stop you to write an IRC -> Matrix bridge? Like https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc but the other way around.This is possible since the protocol is documented but it would just take a lot of time to write for not much utility IMHO... pretty much the same reason the only decent working server Matric implementation is synapse :/
(DIR) Post #9ttB23ksxuD7Pzx7Nw by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-04-10T04:09:51Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@me @haskal having zero desire to talk to Matrix people would stop me from wanting to do that
(DIR) Post #9ttHoDsjDYwERxyDFw by jlhertel@mastodon.technology
2020-04-10T05:25:44Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sirLooking forward to read a blogpost about it.I started to get very uncomfortable with Matrix when I saw they are receiving investments from venture capitalists (read: they need to grow infinitely)@0orpheus
(DIR) Post #9ttOV8DkjwVT4PeEPg by ptman@social.librem.one
2020-04-10T06:39:57Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sir there exists a matrix client that presents as an irc server: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-ircd . It's not like it's impossible, someone just needs to write the code. And for matrix the spec is open, so it's easier than reverse engineering the many systems that matrix can bridge.
(DIR) Post #9ttP5qlSbZpRe2vHwO by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-04-10T06:48:19Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sirThere are gateways that let XMPP users join IRC channels though... and XMPP was intended to have gateways (called "transports") to all kinds of protocols, from AIM and ICQ to Skype and Facebook Messenger.@0orpheus
(DIR) Post #9ttPb21an2HtXqKxxA by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-04-10T06:53:57Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sirReally? They have an s2s link between IRC servers and matrix's IRC gateway? I thought Matrix just makes multiple client connections, one for each user.@progo
(DIR) Post #9ttQI86c3ZxWrBEhkG by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-04-10T07:01:45Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sirHas anyone thought Matrix's plan is not EEE? I think back in its early days, their stated goals on their website heavily kmplied that they want to be the ultimate chat protocol that brings together all the other protocol and eventually replaces them.@0orpheus
(DIR) Post #9ttQUHU3117lPuzYJc by rumpelsepp@mastodon.social
2020-04-10T07:02:38Z
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@sir @haskal it matrix is an open spec. Annoying clients are not matrix' (= the spec) fault. It's the clients which need to be fixed in order to be less annoying for irc users.
(DIR) Post #9ttQlFVVcJNCD5lZeC by wowaname@anime.website
2020-04-10T07:07:01.062090Z
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@sir @sheogorath construct is supposedly solving the "connect to matrix like an irc daemon" use case some people seem to want
(DIR) Post #9ttR2bYCues7V3IvEu by wowaname@anime.website
2020-04-10T07:10:10.817086Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@trobador @sir some groups on irc are still adamantly against logging
(DIR) Post #9ttRE2mE1kMP7qJd1U by wowaname@anime.website
2020-04-10T07:12:13.662937Z
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@ptman @sir the spec may be open but i think it hasnt been set in stone, and matrix has been out for how long now?they should settle for something so that all the software implementing the spec can finally get out of alpha and beta maturity stage
(DIR) Post #9ttRH06QQUFnhUAqPo by wowaname@anime.website
2020-04-10T07:12:46.731379Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wolf480pl @sir @progo it isnt s2s
(DIR) Post #9ttWjOpWaEHIGod6Su by ptman@social.librem.one
2020-04-10T08:09:39Z
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@wowaname The spec is versioned and version 1.0 was released https://matrix.org/blog/2019/06/11/introducing-matrix-1-0-and-the-matrix-org-foundation
(DIR) Post #9ttWjTKVqxRUE59uK0 by wowaname@anime.website
2020-04-10T08:13:55.719735Z
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@ptman >in 2019about time
(DIR) Post #9ttsNJ5pQm7D687tei by kline@cmpwn.com
2020-04-10T12:16:25Z
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@wolf480pl @sir @0orpheus the plan was originally to be a common backhaul that would allow anyone to speak to anyone, via their client/protocol of choice.In actual fact, a lot of their funding became dependent on growth of the protocol, it grew a client and front end of it's own, developed features that didn't interop with other services, etc.It says a lot that such a large proportion of their developer effort is spent on the Riot client, and things like voip and video calling that have no plans or roadmap for non-matrix2matrix use.Matrix went from a servant protocol to considering the others in the ecosystem it meant to bind together as second class.
(DIR) Post #9ttsUJlfJvSLDZ2R7Y by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-04-10T12:17:42Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@kline @sir @0orpheus one matrix to rule them allone matrix to find them allone matrix to bring them all together and in the darkness bind them
(DIR) Post #9ttsWy6aJldStw5SUq by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-04-10T12:18:11Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@kline @sir @0orpheus also, xkcd standards
(DIR) Post #9ttsyaKyHQNrIJz7bc by kline@cmpwn.com
2020-04-10T12:23:09Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@wolf480pl @sir @0orpheus yeah, it's relevant.I don't agree with elsewhere in the thread where it was asserted that IRC hasn't aged well - I think its longevity and staying power past fads like XMPP show the opposite.That's not to say that IRC isn't lacking in some areas. There is no doubt that clients are still sharp objects - there's no reason for example that most interactions should be through slash-commands rather than sensible gui flows. I should be able to paste an image into my client, and it automatically uploads it to my image host of choice, and then drops the resulting url into my message box. Client understanding of services so people don't have to faff with nickserv, etc.But none of these things require that the protocol changes, nor the character of IRC use. The issue is that by the time you are capable and qualified to write an IRC client, you've already internalised the sharp edges and don't see why things like Nickserv are challenging to new users.
(DIR) Post #9tttdaFBX2AQsUpOVM by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-04-10T12:30:34Z
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@kline @sir @0orpheus Regarding NickServ, I haven't seen a network that didn't support IRCv3 SASL for 5 years. So that one is more-or-less dealt with.Assuming other rough edges - file/image, reactions, custom emoji, and such - get smoothed out in the near future, the only issue left will be chat history.And I've seen some IRC daemons add limited support for room history. Wonder how well that goes in the long term.
(DIR) Post #9tttg1z9MRelUmUjc8 by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-04-10T12:31:02Z
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@kline @sir @0orpheus I miss MemoServ though.
(DIR) Post #9ttu5MRSRPAOBDoVhw by kline@cmpwn.com
2020-04-10T12:35:35Z
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@wolf480pl @sir @0orpheus SASL doesn't have anything to do with IRCv3, but yeah, SASL is a good thing *once you've managed to walk someone through a stateful process with a bot in private messages*.Room history (serverside) and out-of-band images (clientside) are fairly easy kills.Custom emoji/reactions are somewhat more controversial, and also require protocol changes that need agreed upon and then rolled out across both clients and servers.
(DIR) Post #9ttuMdhRWvK4cwWtoe by kline@cmpwn.com
2020-04-10T12:38:43Z
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@wolf480pl @sir @0orpheus SASL is a good thing *once you've managed to walk someone through a stateful process with a bot in private messages*.Room history (serverside) and out-of-band images (clientside) are fairly easy kills.Custom emoji/reactions are somewhat more controversial, and also require protocol changes that need agreed upon and then rolled out across both clients and servers.
(DIR) Post #9ttugdd3VEbECQ0u8G by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-04-10T12:42:10Z
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@kline @sir @0orpheus hm... so either standardized in-band registration, or web registration would be necessary.As for emoji reactions, if the server implements message-tags[1], and passes through client-only tags intact, clients can go on and implement things like +react[2][1]: https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/message-tags[2]: https://ircv3.net/specs/client-tags/react
(DIR) Post #9ttun2QiCrcGr6I9Vg by kline@cmpwn.com
2020-04-10T12:43:29Z
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@wolf480pl @sir @0orpheus so yeah, requires both server and client changes to support a protocol extension, and is debateable if it's even a worthwhile addition compared some other changes for less effort and more reward.
(DIR) Post #9ttvD6WFcoFJ4FJOV6 by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-04-10T12:48:12Z
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@kline @sir @0orpheus UnrealIRCd and InspIRCd already support message-tags. It was required for earlier IRCv3 extensions server-time, so chances are any server that tries to keep up with IRCv3 already had those a while ago.
(DIR) Post #9ttvGGPzHFhAdZt9wu by kline@cmpwn.com
2020-04-10T12:48:46Z
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@wolf480pl @sir @0orpheus Yes
(DIR) Post #9tuBvJp37jXOKpD3k8 by Cambria@fosstodon.org
2020-04-10T15:54:17Z
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@sir Also looking forward to reading.
(DIR) Post #9tuMpH6pOiLxg6qWNk by roka@pl.smuglo.li
2020-04-10T17:57:39.926113Z
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@sir @0orpheus good post :gib:
(DIR) Post #9tub3cMaZQiL0dx3PE by kline@cmpwn.com
2020-04-10T20:37:05Z
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@wolf480pl @sir @0orpheus it doesn't even have to be standardised, mind. Hexchat could add a gui that takes the info required for the top-5 irc networks and just hardcode in what needs done with it, and you've covered something like 90% of all new irc users.
(DIR) Post #9tufawC2GS0Hsp9uVs by 0orpheus@niu.moe
2020-04-10T21:27:57Z
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@kline @wolf480pl @sir Standardized, in-band user registration and management seems like a must to me. It helps both the new user onboarding process and moderation tooling; two fields that IRC is sorely lacking in and involved in why large projects like Mozilla/Moznet have moved off of IRC.
(DIR) Post #9tufhZAqFQG2W8lGDI by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-04-10T21:29:08Z
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@0orpheuswhat do you mean in terms of moderation?@kline @sir
(DIR) Post #9tugcMZ1nsilum9nFY by 0orpheus@niu.moe
2020-04-10T21:39:25Z
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@wolf480pl User/Abuser moderation. Matrix supports message redaction, more effective kick/bans, server ACLs,fine-grained user permissions, report system, etc.@kline @sir
(DIR) Post #9tuh6bDvrawG4JhvBQ by kline@cmpwn.com
2020-04-10T21:44:51Z
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@0orpheus @wolf480pl @sir I wish I could say I was particularly enamored with matrixes acl and permissions system.For all it's benefits, I think there has been some mixed responses to the idea of empowering people to re-shape the history of conversations on IRC as well.
(DIR) Post #9tuj9Pf3Vc66z8raym by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-04-10T22:07:47Z
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@0orpheusHow are Matrix'es kicks/bans more effective?As for the report system, who do the reports go to?As for redacting other people's messages - no, I don't think we should allow this.@kline @sir
(DIR) Post #9tupOG4s1RcVKZOs1w by 0orpheus@niu.moe
2020-04-10T23:17:43Z
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@wolf480pl I mean, evading IRC channel bans is relatively easy in general due to NickServ not being an effective user management system, in my opinion. But I don't have any hard data off hand to back this up since I've never run a large IRC channel/server or a large Matrix server. I'm sure there's better examples in the Moznet migration talks somewhere.Reports are just an API call; they can be handled however the server feels like (i.e. alerts room mods, server admins,etc)Message redaction I'm not a fan of either, but I can see its uses and I'm sure some organizations would want the feature.@kline @sir
(DIR) Post #9tuqLFmalIWDVAyvOi by kline@cmpwn.com
2020-04-10T23:28:21Z
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@0orpheus @wolf480pl @sir I think the bigger issue isn't so much about nickserv not being an effective user management system (a point that can be argued either way), but instead that - certainly on freenode - we have a pretty strong leaning towards our network being low-barrier-to-entry. We really don't want to have to make signup a requirement to participate.It should be, in our minds, a choice that you can make to get more out of the network (such as a persistent identity to build relations with people and groups, the tool that gives you the keys to tooling such as channel registration, cloaks that declare an affiliation with projects, etc)
(DIR) Post #9tur0BwFxWHhS71TpA by 0orpheus@niu.moe
2020-04-10T23:35:46Z
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@kline Quite frankly I think a lot of people would argue IRC is by default high-barrier-to-entry. Hell, people have used that as an argument against me today haha.Still, I think that's an admirable goal and I'm not here to make said argument. IRC has a lot of positives to it and if that's what's working (giving the option to have a persistent identity) all power to it. @wolf480pl @sir
(DIR) Post #9tur9KI8Gy5fxrbwVE by kline@cmpwn.com
2020-04-10T23:37:25Z
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@0orpheus Absolutely agree and I've made threads about it in the past, and today argued that nickserv is frankly too hard to use for new people.That said, requiring registration immediately foists that issue on new users, and is also a cost that cuts across to experienced users who just want to go to #python to ask why <weird bug #173> isn't going away.
(DIR) Post #9tvQgIhsgMVf0A76FU by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-04-11T06:15:33Z
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@klineOr, more importantly, people who have a half-broken syatem and want to go to #archlinux and ask how to fix it@0orpheus
(DIR) Post #9tw6jT0h1jartu6ZNo by 0orpheus@niu.moe
2020-04-11T14:06:45Z
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@wolf480pl @kline To respond to both of your concerns, I looked into it more, and Matrix does have the concept of guest accounts which are closer in terms of ease-of-access I believe.But I'd have to play around with the API and see, I never bothered with it before (Public rooms were useful enough for me)