Post 9tmAXwpLrmW2rbGHT6 by smays@mastodon.technology
(DIR) More posts by smays@mastodon.technology
(DIR) Post #9tmAXwRxGlnhh2Jb04 by SpindleyQ@mastodon.social
2020-04-06T14:24:05Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
More and more I feel like the thing I loved about computers growing up was that using computer programs taught you thingsand this spirit is... completely missing from all modern software, commercial and free alike
(DIR) Post #9tmAXwpLrmW2rbGHT6 by smays@mastodon.technology
2020-04-06T16:22:00Z
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@SpindleyQ I wonder if that's true for all sufficiently "mature" technology. I've heard people express that feeling about old cars. Growing up they learned about the cars by working on them, something no longer possible (for most)
(DIR) Post #9tmAXxmCKzaTo6nHBw by SpindleyQ@mastodon.social
2020-04-06T17:45:42Z
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@smays There is definitely an element of that, for sure - both things getting more complex over time, and also the sheer necessity of simplicity when a tech is new and unproven.I think also a big factor must have been that developers had to assume that the person on the other end of their software had never touched a computer before and was probably terrified of it.
(DIR) Post #9tmAXyJAMPxVSMDbZw by smays@mastodon.technology
2020-04-06T18:12:32Z
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@SpindleyQ I wasn't an IT guy but did a lot of support during the early days of the web. I learned early on that most folks didn't care how things worked; weren't much interested in how to make it work better; they just wanted it to work.
(DIR) Post #9tmAXzDsxXKSIGktzE by SpindleyQ@mastodon.social
2020-04-06T18:44:27Z
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@smays I'm certain that's true. It just feels like we are in a place where software either assumes you are totally helpless (and will happily exploit you), or assumes you are already an expert, or willing to put in serious time and effort to become one. The bridge between the two seems to be random YouTubers. Seems pretty far from ideal.
(DIR) Post #9tmAZkmNdCgg4ojUO0 by friend@linuxrocks.online
2020-04-06T15:03:18Z
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@SpindleyQI still often get that feeling on Linux. Especially since you can really go as deep as you want and tweak something on every corner – all the way down to the source code, if you feel like it.
(DIR) Post #9tmAZlAqAGFlIgB1Vo by SpindleyQ@mastodon.social
2020-04-06T15:12:17Z
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@friend Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm definitely still learning with and about computers all the time - but I often feel like learning about software is a very different activity than using it.The best software of my youth was accessible to an ignorant but curious kid, gave me the ability to accomplish things I couldn't without it, _and_ helped me develop new skills and new ways to think about things. Thought and care put into the experience of coming to understand the software.
(DIR) Post #9tmAbI6tC4XXjw3i2i by SpindleyQ@mastodon.social
2020-04-06T15:41:01Z
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I often think about @leonardr, in our podcast interview*, talking about about repeatedly doing the interactive tutorial for a piece of budgeting software as a kid.That sort of aggressively accessible software, where even someone with no practical use for it is welcomed to it, can learn from it... that's what I wish there was more of.* http://fringe.games/episodes/ep5-leonard-richardson.html
(DIR) Post #9tmAc6WTlCic5mPqs4 by SpindleyQ@mastodon.social
2020-04-06T15:44:56Z
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There was tons of software that was alien to me that I couldn't understand, too. I was crushed when I got my first C compiler and the online help didn't teach me how to do things with C like QBasic taught me how to do things with BASIC. I remember trying to use database programs with no success. Often even computer games would give me that feeling. Ultima VI might as well have been a C compiler, for how big and imposing it was, how lost I felt.
(DIR) Post #9tmAdBVkhQwnqvaiXY by SpindleyQ@mastodon.social
2020-04-06T15:48:34Z
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Just feeling like, there was a fertile middle ground between "don't make me think" and "RTFM", and I don't want to forget it.
(DIR) Post #9tmAem0eU7tVL8nmJE by brennen@mastodon.social
2020-04-06T16:24:38Z
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@SpindleyQ my gut feeling is that in some essential way, RTFM was (and is) fine advice when there was a manual.i probably wouldn't be a programmer if qbasic hadn't enfolded me in its warm and gentle embrace. for all my disgust with microsoft as an entity, i do my best to remember that this is an axis of user freedom that someone there once got right. a little crack in the austere walls of a 1980s/90s DOS installation, light spilling through into the darkness.
(DIR) Post #9tmAfXjd2inXMFCrRI by RobF@mastodon.social
2020-04-06T17:25:12Z
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@SpindleyQ yeah, I had lots of stuff to prod at from stuff like The Quill to VU-3D (http://www.bioeddie.co.uk/Spectrum/vu-3d.htm) and all manner of database software, rudimentary game creators and that.I'm trying to encourage just faffing around with things to the kids, doesn't matter what they do with it just if they fancy prodding at something, it's there. Definitely difficult with the way platforms are siloed now but doable.
(DIR) Post #9tmAhKbIqZ5nCZAHNA by SpindleyQ@mastodon.social
2020-04-06T17:53:54Z
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@brennen Some manuals, definitely! We used to have some really good, comprehensive, approachable manuals for things!Part of what set me thinking about this was looking at gamedev tools for my 12-year-old to mess with. Looked at Godot, and the first sentence of the "Tutorial" section in their docs is:"Regular 2D nodes, such as Node2D or Control both inherit from CanvasItem, which is the base for all 2D nodes."and.... there is a very specific person who this helps, and it is not my son.
(DIR) Post #9tmAi1jySCZuzuYJMG by SpindleyQ@mastodon.social
2020-04-06T17:56:07Z
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@brennen He's messed around with Scratch and RPG Maker, so, it's not that he doesn't have access to easy-to-use tools. But he's interested in learning more and digging more deeply into scripting, and the gulf between Scratch and anything else seems wider today than ever.
(DIR) Post #9tmAj49ixXCgmJ5mNc by SpindleyQ@mastodon.social
2020-04-06T18:06:03Z
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@RobF Yeah, that's probably a good way to do it. I just wish I had a good list of stuff that was good to faff around with. I'd love to get my kid up and running with approachable music making tools, for example, but that whole scene seems like a nightmare beast that I'm progressively more intimidated by every passing year, let alone a 12-year-old who's played the trumpet a bit at school
(DIR) Post #9tmAkKh4xOEMMLIWCO by emptyfortress@mastodon.social
2020-04-06T18:15:19Z
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@SpindleyQ @RobF music-making software is probably the poster-child for awful discoverability (as in "learning by fiddling with things"), I've seen people with musical training physically recoil the first time they see or try a recent DAWif you can find a very early version of fruity loops I'd recommend that, that's the only approachable thing I can remembersame with publishing, what happened to publisher? it was perfect for zine-making
(DIR) Post #9tmAlbvKNlZK5PZVsO by SpindleyQ@mastodon.social
2020-04-06T18:19:00Z
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@emptyfortress @RobF it’s bad enough that I kind of just want to give him Impulse Tracker because at least then I can show him stuffGod I loved making bullshit zines with Publisher
(DIR) Post #9tmAm9Mm2k8Bo5fOjo by packbat@dragon.style
2020-04-06T18:44:49Z
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@SpindleyQ In university, my system spent a fair chunk of time reading the built-in documentation for MATLAB, talking about the strengths and limitations of its algorithms; and as an amateur game dev, stuff like LÖVE and PICO-8 and @candle's domino have given a kind of structure to look at things like the game loop in games programming and coroutines in Lua and CSSbut we've also stumbled over a lot of walls - software where there's no documentation, and it's figure out how to hack it yourself or navigate asking a Discord server full of people to take time to help youit feels like there's sparks of programs teaching you things out there, but they're uncommon- Packsnek
(DIR) Post #9tmAmBRoIzLeGI2Rrk by SpindleyQ@mastodon.social
2020-04-06T18:56:04Z
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@packbat @candle yes! I love the observation that a simpler approachable tool can help you understand more broadly-applicable ideas and give you mental tools to take with you. PICO-8 is a really good example I’d forgotten about, actually.
(DIR) Post #9tmBZHYoMldjPUj1OK by HarneyBA@pleroma.site
2020-04-06T19:13:50.192575Z
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@SpindleyQ @smays Yep. Felt the gap growing more sour as age piles on now. Still think back to costing the family over a hundred dollars worth of inkjet tanks from printing a quickly cancelled copy of the Game Maker version 6-8 manual from an online wiki page. I think the job was cancelled at about page 74 from some 200+ pages. Also the same sense as an alien form in Reaper for the first time. Still not a very smart person now.Feels like the "intuitive" programs and sites have become more restrictive and hostile for the alleged reason of "streamlining". Last time I heard that idea was when the budgets of games had a near-exponential explosion upwards.