Post 9tZPqYR7gjC9bTMXqa by leroycepearson@social.librem.one
(DIR) More posts by leroycepearson@social.librem.one
(DIR) Post #9tYGUbTuap4vvmAJOK by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T02:01:33Z
11 likes, 14 repeats
Abolish copyright.You can charge for material things - paper, ink, packaging material, the time of the workers to prepare it. You can even charge for bandwidth, server upkeep, and electricity. But information has no material cost and therefore cannot be sold.Exercise civil disobedience: it's your obligiation as a good citizen to be a pirate. We can negotiate again when they change the law to make copyrighted works enter the public domain within our lifetimes.
(DIR) Post #9tYGXI8Oys6KnQNzY8 by alex@gleasonator.com
2020-03-31T02:03:31Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir Agree 1000% đź’Ż
(DIR) Post #9tYGqJT4FQAmQw7dwm by aeveltstra@mastodon.social
2020-03-31T02:05:44Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sir Also charge for the time to compile the information and the experience it takes to transform that into an educational or entertaining source.
(DIR) Post #9tYH2ivhPJ0AsQQrq4 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T02:08:22Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@aeveltstra you can charge for the time if someone will pay you for it, but you can't keep charging for it once it's done.Also note that you can charge people anything they'll pay. You can charge more than the cost of printing of a physical book, so long as someone will pay you that much. Or more than the cost of the bandwidth. Or you can ask your audience to support you voluntarily, which is becoming an increasingly effective approach for thousands of creators.
(DIR) Post #9tYHel57r1cmYUygu8 by alcinnz@floss.social
2020-03-31T02:12:36Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir Personally my only disagreement is that I think piracy only justifies a modern copyright regiem.You cannot enjoy mainstream entertainment without supporting or justifying these laws in the eyes of the state, so see what else is out there! I'm really pleased with what I've found!
(DIR) Post #9tYHw8jn9h5WqVHsJc by cirno@pl.smuglo.li
2020-03-31T02:19:14.137679Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@sir I agree along with all forms of patents, for example: https://www.rawstory.com/2020/03/italians-3d-print-key-ventilator-piece-for-just-1-to-help-battle-coronavirus-so-medical-company-threatens-to-sue-them/ literally throwing people who need ventilators under the bus because they don't want to lose profit, or the entire EpiPen monopoly
(DIR) Post #9tYIPfkpTkrldwr3dg by LogicalDash@cybre.space
2020-03-31T02:23:31Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir this is sort of like those people who object quite reasonably to tipped labor and therefore, never tip
(DIR) Post #9tYISTDWY3c3d2busq by kumicota@weeaboo.space
2020-03-31T02:25:04.620159Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@cirno I was reading this and one of the links posted it was on the verge and when they contacted the creators and the company for clarification they saw that the company didn't tried to sue them but that https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/17/21184308/coronavirus-italy-medical-3d-print-valves-treatmentsbut I wouldn't be surprised if they did, it wouldn't be surprise if they were sued @sir
(DIR) Post #9tYIeB6XiTPAvcvanQ by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T02:26:30Z
3 likes, 1 repeats
@LogicalDash I walk the walk. Among other things, I support many creators through LiberaPay, Patreon, GitHub Sponsors, of many kinds of works, I buy DRM free and lossless music on bandcamp for well over the asking price, I donate to many free and open source software projects, I buy merchandise and stickers knowing the margin is used to pay the bills, and I reach out to many creators directly asking how I can support them better.Don't be so presumptious to assume I'm devoid of morals simply because I disavow copyright and encourage dissenting against a broken system. There are alternatives and I put my money where my mouth is.
(DIR) Post #9tYJFD3PQn8pgn7Vg0 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T02:32:30Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@LogicalDash oh, and yes, I fucking tip at restaurants.
(DIR) Post #9tYKYyNBp9sJu2MNlI by aeveltstra@mastodon.social
2020-03-31T02:46:52Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir Agreed!
(DIR) Post #9tYKvW2HLbocg1KQG8 by ajroach42@retro.social
2020-03-31T02:51:29Z
1 likes, 2 repeats
RE LB: People tend to think that paying artists and abolishing copyright are mutally exclusive. They are not. Pay the artists! Artists are good. It's publishers I'm taking issue with. Publishers are the entities that benefit from copyright, not people.
(DIR) Post #9tYLQKdtl0nQJncR4S by portpupper@social.sakamoto.gq
2020-03-31T02:58:18.106898Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@aeveltstra @sir Source is free; binaries are $75
(DIR) Post #9tYLbJaa0xmQEiItwe by aeveltstra@mastodon.social
2020-03-31T03:00:01Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@portpupper @sir Not bad: it does take time and effort to learn how to compile source code into binaries. Having that returned over time in $75 increments may work out nicely.
(DIR) Post #9tYLgXm8hHXdgOChwe by portpupper@social.sakamoto.gq
2020-03-31T03:01:13.846527Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@aeveltstra @sir I know #Ardour and #ZynFusion both use that model. IIRC, Ardour specifically calls out the Mac binaries are difficult to get properly tuned in a "good luck compiling it yourself" note.
(DIR) Post #9tYLiNSE2fLiFdlPjU by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T03:00:48Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@portpupper @aeveltstra that works. It also keeps you honest, because if you put adware or spyware into your binaries, I'm going to patch them out of your source and offer the binaries for free
(DIR) Post #9tYNwwr5Q0rE0YT4iG by LogicalDash@cybre.space
2020-03-31T02:57:01Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ajroach42 if we get a really robust socialized arts funding program going then I am down with screwing over publishersWithout that, I think you're advocating that artists survive on, essentially, tipsWhich, while not strictly impossible, isn't something I'd wish on anybody
(DIR) Post #9tYNwxOPQ7Vpfu3geW by ajroach42@retro.social
2020-03-31T03:01:20Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@LogicalDash Obviously we could not abolish our current copyright system without implementing something else to ensure artists get paid. Obviously independent creators and corporate creators exist on a different spectrum. Artists aren't getting paid now, by and large. Attempting to consider the rights of both artists and publishers at once is how we end up with the system we have now, which is broken to the point that the "feeling" of a piece of music can be copyrighted.
(DIR) Post #9tYNwxmVyUnKsfKwE4 by LogicalDash@cybre.space
2020-03-31T03:04:45Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ajroach42 you boosted a post that specifically and explicitly exhorts the reader to pirate things as a way to pressure the system into reforming copyrightI think this approach will hurt artists in the short term and motivate the development of even more restrictive publication models in the long term
(DIR) Post #9tYNwyEAJgueGQH1KC by ajroach42@retro.social
2020-03-31T03:09:25Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@LogicalDash Yep, I did. Because pirating things from publishers doesn't hurt artists who are small enough to be hurt. It just hurts publishers. Most media that is consumed comes from 6 companies. We should absolutely stop giving any money to those 6 companies. If you're looking for something made by someone small enough to be hurt by piracy, buy it. To me, that's obvious. But it also doesn't matter a whole ton because most media comes from 6 companies.
(DIR) Post #9tYNwyk4P4QvrNCV3Q by ajroach42@retro.social
2020-03-31T03:10:43Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@LogicalDash But it's a big world, and full of lots of grey areas. No sweeping generalization is going to cover all of them. I'm not interested in having this conversation beyond the two points I've tried to make: - Pay artists - Starve publishers
(DIR) Post #9tYNwzJWHGn1dJmoJE by emacsomancer@fsmi.social
2020-03-31T03:25:04.731985Z
0 likes, 1 repeats
@sir @ajroach42 @LogicalDash Two relevant Twitter threads I participated in recently:- https://twitter.com/cyborgyndroid/status/1244196825642471424- https://twitter.com/AbrahamHanover/status/1244040784564776960Guess whose book I bought another copy of?
(DIR) Post #9tYPxYFea1ZJtmNH0K by oneway@oneway.masto.host
2020-03-31T03:49:06Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir @alex or at least cut it down to very short time like originally intended. I am trying to challenge. I'm publishing EVERYTHING (movie, tv show, music, books, etc) created pre 1964 and next year will do 1965 and so on every year thereafter. https://youtu.be/unlKc7ZjV0chttps://www.gorf.tv/
(DIR) Post #9tYQTAnnIdTYRFQDKq by icedquinn@blob.cat
2020-03-31T03:54:50.310979Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@ajroach42 @LogicalDash publishers are there for the artists to outsource the non-art concerns.they need to be reformed but they still have a purpose.
(DIR) Post #9tYRIPZ6AeREzfyq0W by judgedread@freespeechextremist.com
2020-03-31T04:04:06.770916Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@oneway Leave out the Youtube links for reposts.
(DIR) Post #9tYTyUhHgEHcyu0Gqe by ThreeOneThreeChris@freespeechextremist.com
2020-03-31T04:34:07.705232Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@judgedread @oneway Or instead just rip the video from youtube and post it direct like I do.
(DIR) Post #9tYUuA5KTQifqjkSA4 by judgedread@freespeechextremist.com
2020-03-31T04:44:33.025317Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@ThreeOneThreeChris @oneway I operate on the assumption that Google has the most advanced proxy breaching machine fingerprinting technology in existence.The Tor documentation discusses CSS based machine fingerprinting exploits that even Tor's filters can't yet block.So... no.
(DIR) Post #9tYVoHwoQZf6S4Wn20 by RyuKurisu@fosstodon.org
2020-03-31T04:53:34Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir I'm curious to know @mwlucas thoughts about this as a writer 🙂
(DIR) Post #9tYaKvzbTafbjTei6i by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-31T05:44:59Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@portpupper what about:* source is free* binaries are free for non-commercial use (to build product awareness and #NetworkEffects)* binaries for commercial use are $60 a yearThis actually solves a problem, where businesses who understand the value of the #FreeCode software they use want to contribute financially, but find it a headache to account for those contributions in their bookkeeping (are they charitable donations? Tax-deductable expenses? Other?).@sir @aeveltstra
(DIR) Post #9tYbf5tMTqRWBFuebQ by mort@fosstodon.org
2020-03-31T05:59:10Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir Remember, the GPL wouldn't work without copyright.The copyright system is fucked, but I think it's good that if I write software (or a book or whatever), I get to choose if corporations get to make money off it or not. Abolishing copyright must come with bigger systematic changes.But absolutely reduce copyright from death of the author + 70 years down to something reasonable.
(DIR) Post #9tYdaEjAP0Vw2mxJmi by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-03-31T06:21:45Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mortJust make copyleft the law@sir
(DIR) Post #9tYdlqQGapCu8feOHo by ajroach42@retro.social
2020-03-31T04:20:12Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@icedquinn @LogicalDash I'm not sure what this adds to the existing conversation. Existing major publishers are parasites. The few good bits that these publishers currently do could be replaced half a dozen different ways without the parasites we have now.The indies are always going to be an exception that the major publishers hide behind to justify continuing and increasing the laws that let the major publishers screw over creators. I dunno what else there is to say.
(DIR) Post #9tYdlr6o2fEcGbYMam by LogicalDash@cybre.space
2020-03-31T04:23:10Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ajroach42 @icedquinn encouraging piracy won't really hurt major publishers because they can always afford to beat pirates where it counts: convenience. It is just easier to pay monthly than to navigate the vagaries of torrents. So most people will.Indie publishers can't necessarily afford that, though.
(DIR) Post #9tYdlrmzVoykNRI3LU by icedquinn@blob.cat
2020-03-31T06:23:51.800929Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@LogicalDash just keep in mind that its ultimately the customers' game to lose.you might be one of the few who chooses to pay slightly more to go to the ethical store who does everything above board and gracefully endures crises while everyone else is on fire, but statistically you're still reliant on the larger mass of idiots who couldn't care less about the slave factory that made their latest crapfone to get paid to afford it :blobcatdead:
(DIR) Post #9tYeZL2zWJ8RJDMdai by papa@mastodon.sdf.org
2020-03-31T06:31:41Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@sir Reform, don't abolish.Disney doesn't deserve to have the Mouse protected to Kingdom Come, but ordinary authors deserve reasonable protection of their work.
(DIR) Post #9tYflIgCFTp3OXyBl2 by LogicalDash@cybre.space
2020-03-31T03:17:45Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@ajroach42 I took it in the context of the internet archive's latest thing, which a lot of small creators believe is hurting them
(DIR) Post #9tYflJ7UbzemlCjzIu by ajroach42@retro.social
2020-03-31T03:21:48Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@LogicalDash ... They removed the wait list from the DRM protected ebooks you can borrow from their library. So maybe more than one person might have a copy of the ebook durring the same two week period, at the end of which it will self destruct. That's the least exciting thing to be worried about. The only people I've seen complain have had less than 50 people check their books out from IA in sum total. It's a boring molehill, and also not a thing that I was talking about.
(DIR) Post #9tYfo9IDbYoR9R72SO by ajroach42@retro.social
2020-03-31T04:36:39Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@LogicalDash @icedquinn Have you ever tried to pirate an actually independent work? Shits basically impossible. If something isn't popular, it barely exists in peer-to-peer services. I'm still not sure if your misunderstanding me or choosing to ignore the parts of what I say that don't align with the arguments you want to make. Either way, I find this conversation unproductive and I don't wish to participate in it any further.
(DIR) Post #9tYjSd3se0r0vIOrcu by aeveltstra@mastodon.social
2020-03-31T07:27:25Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@strypey @portpupper @sir Wouldn't an annual fee imply a support effort from the provider? And wouldn't that imply that the binary provider is the same party as the software engineer? We'd need good contracts to cover when that isn't the case, wouldn't we?
(DIR) Post #9tYpZWJMjuBLjvJQdE by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-31T08:35:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@aeveltstra > Wouldn't an annual fee imply a support effort from the provider?Not unless there is a service level agreement between the customer and the provider. It's just a commercial license to use the binary, as downloaded from the official website. But I'm presuming a model where a new stable version comes out every year, and customers click-and-pay when they update.@portpupper @sir
(DIR) Post #9tYpo0x7c3YipGorGy by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-31T08:36:28Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@aeveltstra > Wouldn't an annual fee imply a support effort from the provider?Not unless there is a service level agreement between the customer and the provider. It's just a commercial license to use the binary, as downloaded from the official website. But I'm presuming a model where a new stable version comes out every year, and customers click-and-pay when they update. Like what the developer of Illumination Software Creator did.@portpupper @sir
(DIR) Post #9tYpwpvbyEMvEzJsMS by strypey@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-31T08:39:13Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@aeveltstra > And wouldn't that imply that the binary provider is the same party as the software engineer? It wouldn't achieve the intended goal if the engineer(s) didn't get the lion's share of the revenue. But I can imagine a #PlatformCooperative, owned by a group of developers, which take cares of the business side of things for a percentage of revenue.@portpupper @sir
(DIR) Post #9tYqj8M2lUUiHyiGES by ssokolow@qoto.org
2020-03-31T08:48:05Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir I used to act that way.These days, I'm so massively behind on the DRM-free games and used novels I've collected that it'd feel wrong to shun what I paid (almost nothing) for to pirate something instead.(It also lets me feel satisfaction in knowing that companies can't whine about piracy being why they didn't get my money, because I neither pirated nor paid for whatever it is they're unwilling to offer on my terms.)
(DIR) Post #9tYseuMV2zG5dq2Tvk by chloekek@floppy.tokyo
2020-03-31T09:10:38Z
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@wolf480pl @mort @sir Beware that in some cases it is important that modification can be prohibited: of works that voice opinions. This counters framing and putting words in people’s mouths. Hence my text-only toots are CC BY-ND, not CC BY-SA.
(DIR) Post #9tYvFgPg4Sbz0GBlmy by byllgrim@mastodon.xyz
2020-03-31T09:39:44Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
You can charge for anything that you own. And you can own anything that you can bar others from accessing. It's only a question of might and desire, init?
(DIR) Post #9tYxy5ViJwIdUWJWGu by herag@dobbs.town
2020-03-31T10:09:00Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir amen
(DIR) Post #9tYy6vR39KBGqkLX5E by herag@dobbs.town
2020-03-31T10:10:57Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sirAgainst Intellectual Propertyby N. Stephan Kinsella https://cdn.mises.org/Against%20Intellectual%20Property_2.epub
(DIR) Post #9tZ5fdiBjipjhBrYKu by apetresc@fosstodon.org
2020-03-31T11:35:27Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sirShould I feel morally obligated to post a PDF of the Wayland book? :thaenkin:
(DIR) Post #9tZ5mLjeyDBryDkbNw by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T11:35:40Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@papa no, they don't.
(DIR) Post #9tZ5rgQdSdeBb4OaBc by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T11:37:39Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mort GPL is a hack which uses copyright to deal with a separate problem: that closed source code is legal. Bonus: if copyright were abolished, reverse engineering would get stronger
(DIR) Post #9tZ64OzzZk93IuzwhM by ssokolow@qoto.org
2020-03-31T08:52:07Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@papa @sir I remember reading that 90%+ of revenue is made within something like the first 10 years and the rest peters off at a rate which makes it not worth the cultural hit to protect.Beyond that, bear in mind that copyright was never intended to protect fiction or music or the like.
(DIR) Post #9tZ64QIojEnVLaoUgC by ssokolow@qoto.org
2020-03-31T09:00:07Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@papa @sir Here's a quick history of copyright law:The Statute of Anne (1710) was the first government-regulated act in the western world and it boiled down to a pact with the printing guilds trading monopoly for censorship.The U.S. constitution (1787) tried to salvage the idea by granting congress the power "to promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts". ("useful Arts" meaning maps ant the like)That's why the Copyright Act of 1790 only protects "maps, charts, and books" but not things like music or newspapers.Also, it was intentionally designed to allow American to ignore foreign copyrights and that was key to the U.S. becoming the cultural juggernaut that it is today.(On a side-note, Hollywood is in California because it was beyond the reach of Thomas Edison's patent lawyers.)From what I remember, the modern scope of copyright involved a chain of legal goalpost-moving where they first managed to argue that a book of sheet music was a book and thus managed to get rid of the "musical compositions aren't protected" and then managed to argue that, because a piece of sheet music is protected, a recording of that sheet music should also be protected.Examples of things still not copyrightable include clothing designs, jokes, and recipes.
(DIR) Post #9tZ6AFoWdbf2YTQPiq by ssokolow@qoto.org
2020-03-31T09:03:51Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@papa @sir Rick Falkvinge (founder of the Swedish Pirate Party) wrote some *excellent* articles on TorrentFreak on the topic:https://torrentfreak.com/author/rick-falkvinge/He points out things such as how authors and artists are technically entrepreneurs and we should question thoroughly the idea that a special class of entrepreneurs should get to free-ride off a small amount of work for the rest of their lives while no other class of entrepreneurs get to do that.(Work is supposed to be trading something scarce, like the worker's time, for something scarce, like money. Copies of a recording are non-scarce. Performances are scarce.)
(DIR) Post #9tZ6HhDd94f1ZpiTM8 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T11:42:40Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@apetresc yes. There's no DRM on the Wayland Book for a reason
(DIR) Post #9tZ6dpNfTpuNGGxrU0 by mort@fosstodon.org
2020-03-31T11:46:33Z
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@sir Sure, make closed source code illegal and split up the Disneys and Amazons of the world, maybe put something in place to protect individuals from corporations (but not the other way around), and I'm all in favour of getting rid of most forms of intellectual property. That's the "bigger systematic changes" I was talking about.
(DIR) Post #9tZ8bNaK3Nn2NoqNSy by apetresc@fosstodon.org
2020-03-31T12:08:27Z
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@sir Well then, I admire your consistency (truly), though I disagree on the object level.
(DIR) Post #9tZF8qe5cuxPnKwr0S by codesections@fosstodon.org
2020-03-31T13:22:29Z
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@sir > Abolish copyright.Strong disagree (at least without many other changes)I release all my software as #foss. I do so because that will let the most people use the code, and (so far) I've been able to make the financials work in a way that keep me writing code.But I don't beleive anyone has a moral *obligation* to release code in the way that benefits the most people. It's how *I* live up to my values, but others can make there own choices.(1/2)
(DIR) Post #9tZFL4m6v5lP5iWxkG by codesections@fosstodon.org
2020-03-31T13:24:45Z
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@sir > it's your obligation as a good citizen to… pirateStrong disagree. Respect others' choices.I recently bought 4 of @mwlucas's books. Releasing those under a free license would've been great, but he chose not to; presumably, the financials for doing so don't work out (even with patreon/etc).I'm glad those books exist; copyright allows them to. Huge social changes might get us those books without copyright, but right now "civil disobedience" would just mean doing without them
(DIR) Post #9tZFhM7T78PjFs91Ga by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T13:28:43Z
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@codesections @mwlucas in response to your first post, I was going to ask you to respond on the same terms as I levelled my argument - on the intrinsic value of the work.I would like to point out that there are many business models for which the financials don't work out. It's not always the role of law to step in and restrict the rights of private citizens to enable a certain business model to exist. We also need to improve social support systems so that getting a working business model is never in the way of getting food on your table or a roof over your head - so that you don't have to worry as much about finding a way to turn your passions into profits.Have you asked @mwlucas if he has tried publishing books under creative commons (which - for the record - does not mean giving them away. You can sell people a CC e-Book or a CC print book) before resorting to copyright?
(DIR) Post #9tZG3DJ0Z3lII2xrsG by wizard@spacewizard.space
2020-03-31T13:31:29Z
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@sir Yes, this makes total sense, because of course every copyright holder is an evil megacorporation out to deprive you of the culture you richly deserve, as opposed to an independent artist struggling to put food on the table.
(DIR) Post #9tZGAhNJAKtzZkXqzo by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T13:32:29Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@wizard why are you questioning my rejection of copyright, instead of the system which makes authors depend on copyright to get FOOD?
(DIR) Post #9tZGd8vIKsdF7h0OEi by mewmew@blob.cat
2020-03-31T13:39:16.327289Z
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@LogicalDash @ajroach42 instead of paying for the copyrighted thing, just donate to the artist directly.
(DIR) Post #9tZHX2X1HoePW6IwbI by masterofthetiger@theres.life
2020-03-31T13:49:22Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@codesections @sir @mwlucas It isn't about forcing people to freely license their property, it is about that "property" not actually being property to begin with.
(DIR) Post #9tZIULiVbDeM6WxXVI by newt@stereophonic.space
2020-03-31T14:00:07.880075Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@sir alright, I'll start using GPL code in my proprietary projects from now on without releasing the source code.
(DIR) Post #9tZIfh9mE8Ajmg7k6i by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T14:01:01Z
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@newt I know this is sarcastic, but this does not follow from what I said. What actually follows is that the copyright of your proprietary software ought to be invalid, too. If I get your source code, I'm gonna leak it, and if I get your binaries, I'm going to reverse engineer them.
(DIR) Post #9tZIiZrBp8fA0rnvUG by newt@stereophonic.space
2020-03-31T14:02:42.142473Z
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@sir this actually wasn't sarcasm. Copyright laws work both ways. GPL is a form of copyright specifically designed to abuse it for the sake of free software.
(DIR) Post #9tZIj5kZFINavax5bk by codesections@fosstodon.org
2020-03-31T14:02:43Z
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@sir > [could you] respond on the same terms as I leveled my argument - on the intrinsic value of the work.I didn't respond at that level because that level is, bluntly, a bit incoherent.Items don't have "intrinsic value" —there is no fact about the *item* that determines its value.There's just people, and what sort of use/enjoyment we get out of the item. SSH Mastery had value to *me*—more value that the $9.99 I paid.We had this argument in the 1700s, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_value_(economics)
(DIR) Post #9tZItRaqt64bZNLOb2 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T14:03:33Z
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@newt no, but you're still not getting it. Copyleft is a hack which uses copyright to subvert copyright. In a world without copyright, copyleft would not be necessary.
(DIR) Post #9tZIvnQcg0dprvgHvE by newt@stereophonic.space
2020-03-31T14:05:05.014902Z
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@sir no, I'm getting exactly what you are saying. I'm just disagreeing with you.
(DIR) Post #9tZIwuIWccA9SnQINc by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T14:05:09Z
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@codesections the intrinsic value comes from scarcity and labor. There is a finite amount of material, and you have to pay people to obtain the material, assemble it into a product, and deliver the product to you. The bottlenecks inhernt in this also introduce a scarcity on the product itself. Intellectual labor has value, but it's more subtle, because the result of that labor is information - which has no value.
(DIR) Post #9tZJ0WTb8C7Ik0KIjo by codesections@fosstodon.org
2020-03-31T14:05:51Z
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@sir > We also need to improve social support systems so that getting a working business model is never in the way of getting food on your table or a roof over your head - so that you don't have to worry as much about finding a way to turn your passions into profits.Agreed 100%. And, if/when we get to that point, the discussion about copyright will be pretty different. Not *entirely* different—they'll still be questions about how to create the most art/software—but very different
(DIR) Post #9tZJEJlZBTW3NKJDwu by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T14:07:34Z
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@newt let me try another angle. Another effect of the GPL is to require the disclosure of source code. This is not really related to copyright, but more of a contractual agreement which depends on copyright. If copyright ceased to exist, then yes, this would cease to be effective.However, I think that this requirement to disclose source should ALSO be covered by law, as a separate matter. We can abolish copyright AND require disclosure of source.
(DIR) Post #9tZJJkfWaXvGGB4eoq by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T14:09:19Z
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@codesections how do we get to that point? Why can't we discuss copyright under those circumstances now? What if the abolishment of copyright is an argument in favor of universal food sufferage? The fact that we don't have universal food sufferage today does not mean that my arguments about copyright are invalid, it means that the system is fucked in two ways.
(DIR) Post #9tZJLe8zom14bSlLV2 by codesections@fosstodon.org
2020-03-31T14:09:34Z
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@sir > the intrinsic value comes from scarcity and labor.Like I said, we had this debate in the 1700s; that's basically the Labor Theory of Value. But it doesn't work; I could spend a lot of labor turning scarce resources into crap no one wants, and that wouldn't make the crap have "high intrinsic value" (or, if it does, "intrinsic value" is pretty meaningless).Producing crap with expensive materials and lots of labor just means I made some pretty poor choices
(DIR) Post #9tZJYQtUOPnbH0bevQ by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T14:11:42Z
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@codesections that doesn't accurately capture the nuance of my point. My point is that products do not gain value because of the labor that went into them. The labor itself has value, because your time has value. You can spend your time however you wish, but you might also accept payment for spending your time in a particular way.
(DIR) Post #9tZJb309gHOA2ayGo4 by newt@stereophonic.space
2020-03-31T14:12:32.835974Z
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@sir I know where this is going since I've had this argument before. I'm also old enough to remember the wild west we had with software licensing mere 25 years ago.I agree that the copyright system we have right now is ugly and abused as hell, and this has to be changed. Invasive DRMs must not be a thing. Endless copyright extensions must be stopped and reverted to something sane, maybe several years after the product release. But I'm also saying that no copyright system isn't better. It is already a pain in the ass for a small software shop or indie devs to make a living from making software. With no copyright it probably wouldn't be possible since warez sites would kill it.
(DIR) Post #9tZJt8W9uW4EMTZ9pA by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T14:15:05Z
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@newt maybe you shouldn't be questioning the abolishment of copyright on the grounds that it's a necessary means for people to make a living, and instead question why people need copyright to _make a living_. Why is the human needs for food and shelter contingent on having a viable business model? Should we infringe upon the individual rights to share information for the sake of making that business model more viable - or should we maybe make sure that people's basic meets are met, period?
(DIR) Post #9tZK4qXKacNi4LhLRg by codesections@fosstodon.org
2020-03-31T14:17:49Z
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@sir > Intellectual labor has value, but it's more subtle, because the result of that labor is information - which has no value.Even under the idea that "intrinsic value comes from scarcity and labor" this doesn't follow and you've provided no evidence.Information has tremendous value. When I read SSH Mastery, I learned something, and that learning was hugely valuable.(1/2)
(DIR) Post #9tZK7ZtqtvoTL8XDVo by newt@stereophonic.space
2020-03-31T14:18:25.586377Z
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@sir oh, people don't need copyright to make a living in the exact sense. I mean, I could flip burgers in McDonald's and get paid enough to get by, and so could you. But if I want to continue maintaining my lifestyle, then sure, having my work protected is nice.
(DIR) Post #9tZKA3MALwN5HFxUO0 by codesections@fosstodon.org
2020-03-31T14:18:46Z
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@sir Information has value. What it lacks is *exclusivity*: my learning about SSH didn't take knowledge away from Lucas.That is tremendously powerful, and exciting: Lucas can figure something out, write a book, and make the world a better place–not just for one person, but for thousands.That non-exclusivity is why FOSS is so powerfully good, and why I release my software under free licenses. But it is precisely because the information *does* have value that any of this works.
(DIR) Post #9tZKdsVJGbKSJ3SOqO by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T14:22:02Z
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@newt no one is entitled to a viable business model or a certain lifestyle. I believe you are entitled to basic human needs, including happiness, and that this extends to authors as well as everyone else. With this axiom in place, the whole economic model of the human experience changes. I'm getting kind of tired of explaining this (fourth time today)... but try to question your assumptions and build up an internal model of how you might survive and achieve happiness under these constraints. It's possible.It's not the role of the law to limit rights to make more businesses viable. If it were, we wouldn't be able to take a piss for lack of someone to charge us for the pleasure.
(DIR) Post #9tZKhqD3jstoLgoIYC by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T14:24:32Z
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@codesections I have to reframe my thinking to address this, but I don't think it makes my arguments less correct. To give a succinct example, in your 1/2 you mentioned that you learned something valuable. How did you apply that value? To the creation of more information which, according to my principles, has no intrinsic value? To the more efficient application of your time? That second one might have a more indirect kind of value, sure.Anyway, I have work to do, so at some point I have to stop arguing about this (not just with you, btw, I have like 6 ongoing discussions in my notifications).
(DIR) Post #9tZKsjyDHGguBP3zGK by herag@dobbs.town
2020-03-31T14:25:15Z
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@sir I was reading your discussion here and thought I'd comment it if turn with something more productive. I don't know if you are coming from my point of view, but the way I see it is that copyright is the enforcement of Monopoly by the use of force by any entity, not just the govt. They just have more guns than most other entities do.#Piracy4Life
(DIR) Post #9tZKxl7ARxe1BEe1tg by newt@stereophonic.space
2020-03-31T14:27:51.374413Z
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@sir happiness is a very subjective thing. Am I entitled to a dozen hookers if only they can make me happy? Even in your space communism fantasy this won't work.Then again, I could argue that you aren't entitled to my source code either.Btw, I'm quite happy right now. I have a nicely paying job which is partly based on the fact that software is copyrighted. So yeah, you see where I'm going.
(DIR) Post #9tZL5rWMW04rMkIErY by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T14:26:37Z
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@herag good take.Also, let's bring the piracy back into piracy. We could stand to use more gun in our assertion of public right to intellectual "property" /s
(DIR) Post #9tZLCPpBt6NPUiE0Zs by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T14:28:40Z
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@newt happiness is subjective, but let's not open that can of worms. I was using it as a shorthand for the lifestyle you argued that you are entitled to.
(DIR) Post #9tZLD8pQZ4Iv4TgKh6 by realcaseyrollins@gameliberty.club
2020-03-31T14:30:37Z
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@sir What terms would you be willing to agree to in the negotiation?
(DIR) Post #9tZLJdcazQUmJNmH8y by herag@dobbs.town
2020-03-31T14:30:34Z
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@sir hahahaha, I don't disagree at all. I do my part as well as I can. I hate to say it so much, but I think this is one of many areas the govt only gets involved because they gain enormous power through this avenue.I haven't purchased a book or music or movie for more than 10 years unless it is offered drm free or unless it is something that I feel merits payment because I think the artist deserves a good tip.
(DIR) Post #9tZLVKUrv864TMjqFs by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T14:33:53Z
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@realcaseyrollins I would be open to discussing a middle ground where copyrighted information enters the public domain before it becomes obsolete (5-10 years?), let alone before anyone who ever saw it in its original form is dead. It would be necessary to defend fair use even inside of that time period, and to roll back some obnoxious interpretations of copyright which lead to things like mashups or even the opening beats to "Ice Ice Baby" being cause for suit. I would also demand the abolishment of DRM.
(DIR) Post #9tZLa4HZdI9TdGmNLk by newt@stereophonic.space
2020-03-31T14:34:46.779101Z
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@sir I didn't say I was entitled to it. I don't even thing I'm entitled to anything for that matter, the whole concept doesn't really make much sense to me. But I'm able to maintain my lifestyle, and I consider this a nice thing.
(DIR) Post #9tZLgTILY9f0wdC6Ai by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T14:35:15Z
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@newt if you (and anyone else) could achieve that lifestyle without copyright, would you still argue for copyright?
(DIR) Post #9tZLrsnJ5HVrDO7J5M by jcbrand@mastodon.xyz
2020-03-31T14:36:55Z
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@sir @wizard A society without copyright (or patents) and with universal basic income sounds pretty good to me.
(DIR) Post #9tZLzGTHS5d4fuGmSO by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T14:36:58Z
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@newt oh, and I would point out that demanding the legal right to sue people for copying your copyrighted work is the same as being entitled to it
(DIR) Post #9tZLzydlEU9lf9Vltw by newt@stereophonic.space
2020-03-31T14:39:27.771962Z
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@sir I would probably agree with you here. The right to sue for a breach of contract is a much better thing.
(DIR) Post #9tZMH8BWzzmmBiUFcW by realcaseyrollins@gameliberty.club
2020-03-31T14:42:33Z
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@sir This is interesting! I find it interesting that you would argue for copyright protections only * after * a certain amount of time, not before; this is a fascinating concept.I hate DRM. But I would argue for time-based DRM in this scenario, so the limitations are imposed after it's out of the public domain.
(DIR) Post #9tZMNtAHF4kFdA7fKy by newt@stereophonic.space
2020-03-31T14:43:47.008559Z
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@sir if I could achieve this without copyright while doing what I enjoy doing (writing software as a part of a small company in this case), then sure. But I don't see this happening without some form of legal copyright protection.
(DIR) Post #9tZMOxJ5KN0SlakdEG by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T14:43:16Z
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@realcaseyrollins sorry, I don't think you understood me. I'm basically arguing for a return to the original intent of copyright here.
(DIR) Post #9tZMZoGBItZJtTZJdg by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T14:44:06Z
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@realcaseyrollins oh, I see the confusion.>copyrighted information enters the public domain before it becomes obsolete (5-10 years?)Better phrased as: copyrighted information enters the public domain such that the time when it enters the public domain is prior to the obsolecense of that information
(DIR) Post #9tZMfy0609gBqCyrbM by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T14:44:39Z
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@newt that's because you're viewing it through the lens of an economy which has not been adjusted to account for the lack of copyright.
(DIR) Post #9tZMnahgVF05u50L4a by newt@stereophonic.space
2020-03-31T14:48:25.724306Z
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@sir perhaps. But then again, the system you are trying to describe probably can be abused as hell too.
(DIR) Post #9tZMumLRcSDS2G1sKO by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T14:49:01Z
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@newt well, we haven't tried, so who's to say
(DIR) Post #9tZMvO9156qzGiVUES by oneway@oneway.masto.host
2020-03-31T14:49:49Z
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@judgedread @ThreeOneThreeChris I do not believe that youtube has any special way of detecting your IP if using normal VPN. i have spoken with the some very good security ppl about this specifically and that is not a thing. they said watching a youtube video is the same thing as watching a video on brighteon or anywhere else (not talking about like p2p) except for who gets your ip, view history etc. I never post youtube links when you are in post.
(DIR) Post #9tZMws4FJVhcMYyyZM by oneway@oneway.masto.host
2020-03-31T14:50:06Z
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@ThreeOneThreeChris @judgedread most are too long.
(DIR) Post #9tZN2wpOWkpUrfvwGG by wizard@spacewizard.space
2020-03-31T14:49:13Z
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@sir Hey, if you can abolish capitalism so artists can get paid without the copyright system, awesome, that is a great alternativeLet me know when you've got that done OK?
(DIR) Post #9tZN4N7sEltoiTFwHY by newt@stereophonic.space
2020-03-31T14:51:27.686102Z
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@sir we haven't tried many things. Doesn't mean they are all good.
(DIR) Post #9tZNAzyAjNLcvOsUim by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T14:49:35Z
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@wizard capitalism is not incompatible with feeding people
(DIR) Post #9tZNImx90gW2s56zg0 by wizard@spacewizard.space
2020-03-31T14:51:07Z
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@sir what?
(DIR) Post #9tZNOuyi5LYdUylbsG by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T14:51:36Z
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@wizard I'm saying that abolishing capitalism is not a prerequisite for making sure authors can make a living without copyright
(DIR) Post #9tZNUFNxdfpuEr7R32 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T14:51:59Z
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@newt well, what we are doing now isn't working. So we know that it's not good, and we ought to try something else.
(DIR) Post #9tZNWGqfAe4HM4Vcdk by newt@stereophonic.space
2020-03-31T14:56:30.214137Z
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@sir again, isn't working for whom? It works for me. It works for a lot of other people.
(DIR) Post #9tZNdoDrU76ktFxF8S by wizard@spacewizard.space
2020-03-31T14:56:54Z
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@sir ok, whatever that is you are planning to do to make sure artists get paid anyway, let me know when you've got that done and I'll totally get onboard with a general abolition of copyright.Cause there are hella problems with copyright but there is no alternative for ordinary working artists right now and copyright abolitionists don't seem to prioritize it and don't seem to acknowledge that not every copyright holder is fucking Disney
(DIR) Post #9tZOSaCzLetcC9kzpI by judgedread@freespeechextremist.com
2020-03-31T15:07:02.844918Z
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@oneway @ThreeOneThreeChris The way Youtube does it is they obtain your MACHINE FINGERPRINT. If they can get that and one of their covert probes is active on a site that you browse without a proxy they can retroactively decloak you.So I minimize exposure to Google files at all times.
(DIR) Post #9tZOuCUZ7SCEkR9CuO by realcaseyrollins@gameliberty.club
2020-03-31T15:12:01Z
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@sir So...I'm guessing that the #MCU #Marvel movies would be copyrighted, under this rule? Are they "obsolete"?
(DIR) Post #9tZPqYR7gjC9bTMXqa by leroycepearson@social.librem.one
2020-03-31T15:21:10Z
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@sir @codesections I disagree with the statement that information has no value. It does have value. However, it is also exceedingly cheap to copy. I think the point is that copyright 1) has given large companies a stranglehold on culture and 2) doesn't help artists as much as one might think.
(DIR) Post #9tZPuoFYpsoJo3z2Tg by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T15:22:34Z
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@realcaseyrollins not yet, except maybe some of the older ones.
(DIR) Post #9tZQ6NgHRdDEsZ00Aa by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T15:24:06Z
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@newt it's not working for the commons. Public domain is a joke. No one is alive today who was alive the last time something entered the public domain. It's working for you in only the most short sighted and immediate sense.
(DIR) Post #9tZQ7rk1AOroOnSHlg by realcaseyrollins@gameliberty.club
2020-03-31T15:25:38Z
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@sir Like the first #IronMan?
(DIR) Post #9tZRZxbf3NHmeUVUH2 by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T15:41:57Z
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@realcaseyrollins aye, and for sure its source material
(DIR) Post #9tZRi2gc3Bvqivg132 by realcaseyrollins@gameliberty.club
2020-03-31T15:43:26Z
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@sir I like this idea.
(DIR) Post #9tZSoorhw2Ovq7f5Ki by newt@stereophonic.space
2020-03-31T15:55:52.860949Z
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@sir public domain has always been a joke. It's not even a thing in some countries. Again, I agree that the current copyright system isn't ideal and is readily abused by big players like *cough* Disn *cough*.
(DIR) Post #9tZV1fZfzOcGhJTzk0 by oneway@oneway.masto.host
2020-03-31T16:20:36Z
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@judgedread @ThreeOneThreeChris Yeah, i get what you mean but honestly, not to be negative but google is literally on 90% of sites and fingerprinting from sites with google analytics is easier than watching a video. all anons need be behind proxy all the time. and i always suggest have multiple devices.
(DIR) Post #9tZVGiGoFUtfOypbMm by gbear605@mastodon.greenwichmeanti.me
2020-03-31T16:23:06Z
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@sir @newt I agree with your principle, but that’s... not true? There’s a lot that entered the public domain this year - see “Entering the public domain in the United States” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_in_public_domain
(DIR) Post #9tZW1BVHtLJlOAlLPs by 361.xj9@social.sunshinegardens.org
2020-03-31T16:31:25.694661Z
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@wizard @sir sell physical records, merch, tour, &c. streaming royalties and digital sales are still possible without copyright. it is equally possible to pirate, but this is already true. especially for media, we are de facto post copyright. law just needs to catch up with reality.
(DIR) Post #9tZYOq4DRaP5lLVUki by feld@bikeshed.party
2020-03-31T16:58:24.512577Z
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@sir fun idea: implement something like a 90% tax on patent licensing, IP transfers, and money made from copyright defense after 2 years on the market. that money goes to fund UBI. eventually they'll all get pissed off and stop using the system.
(DIR) Post #9tZYiN8KjCFhonkNnc by craigmaloney@octodon.social
2020-03-31T17:00:54Z
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@sir
(DIR) Post #9tZZ5A1ncTbbpiYcHw by exprez135@fosstodon.org
2020-03-31T17:05:59Z
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@masterofthetiger @codesections @sir @mwlucas It's almost like the entire fabric of economy and livelihood has changed to be easier throughout history (we can all survive with relative ease by technology in agriculture, medicine, etc.), but instead of then providing that ease to everyone, which would allow us to freely spend time thinking, writing, building, and sharing, we've allowed a transformation in which these ideas just become another commodity. It's an artificial system.
(DIR) Post #9tZZyzwAKA9ukmY09Y by patrick@georgi.family
2020-03-31T16:34:14.234259Z
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@sir @newt https://web.law.duke.edu/cspd/publicdomainday/2020/
(DIR) Post #9tZa7HiS6gbED65J8i by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T17:14:09Z
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@patrick @newt Finally!!!
(DIR) Post #9tZbAkJeKTXvjahJVg by e@anime.website
2020-03-31T17:29:27.200114Z
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@feld @sir that's an absolutely awful ideado you really want copyright abusers to have "we pay for your welfare" as a badge they can wear?
(DIR) Post #9tZbTwpM2Jz62WgR8q by wolf480pl@mstdn.io
2020-03-31T17:32:54Z
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@sir @newt while you're at it, also make sure to make trade secrets and NDAs illegal.
(DIR) Post #9tZd4KmQYe9khuEETI by namark@qoto.org
2020-03-31T17:50:42Z
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@sir @portpupper @aeveltstra No that will not work. If people can get something for free they will, cause they are not stupid, so the only way that will work is if there is something legal(buildyright?) or physical(computing power) preventing building software. If you say yes to that it will be abused.Warranty on binaries is the answer and that has been known. For example GPL specifically allows adding warranty for that exact purpose. People need to start taking software more seriously (like cars, home appliances or other engineering products) and prefer/demand warranty. There should be international standards and regulation in place. Low quality, obscure and buggy software should not be accepted as the norm.
(DIR) Post #9tZew3yZLq80BK5k2K by wizard@spacewizard.space
2020-03-31T18:06:01Z
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@xj9 @sir Actually selling physical records without copyright doesn't make any sense because copyright is the only thing establishing that the artist has an exclusive right to sell their digital records. Same with streaming royalties, without copyright the streaming service has no reason to pay you royalties. And digital sales: you only ever get to sell one copy, after that people can openly offer it for distribution without penalty. Same with merch. All this *requires* copyright.
(DIR) Post #9tZew4FaKZjt263KYi by 361.xj9@social.sunshinegardens.org
2020-03-31T18:11:32.811741Z
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@wizard @sir it really doesn't
(DIR) Post #9tZf5CttXUI4T1GVyC by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T18:13:08Z
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@namark @portpupper @aeveltstra human beings are not robots driven to the perfect behavior in their best self-interests. Human beings are complex moral creatures who posess empathy and reason. And in fact, it's *not* in their best interests to skirt the fees, because it means they won't have access to reliable updates.I agree that offering warranties is a good approach, though, but that's a separate thing.
(DIR) Post #9tZf7IzNsBvPvgpjZg by wizard@spacewizard.space
2020-03-31T18:03:48Z
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@xj9 @sir The fact that it's fairly easy to invade people's privacy doesn't mean we are "de facto beyond privacy" and penalties for stalking, doxxing, involuntary porn, etc need to be eliminated. "It's very easy to do a thing, and difficult to keep people from doing a thing" doesn't mean "that thing is OK and laws against it need to be eliminated."
(DIR) Post #9tZf7JKeb6wGzemijA by 361.xj9@social.sunshinegardens.org
2020-03-31T18:13:16.582974Z
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@wizard @sir i'm pointing out that piracy is easy because despite the ease artists are able to make money.
(DIR) Post #9tZfL7kSSkCT7ZRPn6 by jorge_jbs@mastodon.cloud
2020-03-31T18:13:30Z
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@sir Many of the concerns raised in the replies could be solved by reading Marx.
(DIR) Post #9tZfWA0kOFePKAK58y by sir@cmpwn.com
2020-03-31T18:14:12Z
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@xj9 @wizard this. It literally does not require copyright to sell CDs. Yes, someone else can burn and sell the CDs, too, but you have already made the CDs and are already selling them.
(DIR) Post #9tZffM8Eh8KDWSD6x6 by wizard@spacewizard.space
2020-03-31T18:18:24Z
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@sir @xj9 OK, an artist technically has the ability to sell a CD of their (or anyone else's) work, and people can buy it from the artist (or anyone else). Great, that really helps.Still reduces the artist to hoping their fan club is sufficiently benevolent to voluntarily support them at a sustainable level. Which, well, sometimes they are.
(DIR) Post #9tZhsMEdp0R1W2XACO by namark@qoto.org
2020-03-31T18:44:29Z
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@sir I'm not sure what's robotic there or even complicated. I didn't say the are galaxy brained I said they are not stupid. If you have the option to buy something or just download for free, and there is provably no difference between the two, you don't need to be a calculating machine to make that choice. If you want to support the devs do that through the "empathy and reason" that you indeed possess, but not through some perverted illusion of shopping you are addicted to (I'm looking at you, me!). I don't see the connection between reliable updates and selling binaries, quite the opposite, those fit better in the warranty model/idea. I don't care if you need to update the binaries or whatever else, I just need it to work and be fit for its intended purpose. Otherwise, what? All it takes for you to charge me another $75, is declare the project discontinued and rename/reskin/repackage it?The idea of just selling binaries goes against what you originally posted, and I think you should stand your ground and don't give in on that front: one can't sell "thin air", and such practices should not be normalized. @portpupper @aeveltstra
(DIR) Post #9tZiayAi8Sndupy55c by rune@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-03-31T18:50:53Z
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@sir Any chance the arguments make it into a blog post?I'd love to read it in a structured way, since it seems like you put a lot of thought into it. Not just copyright law, but the whole societal support of humans without forcing false scarcity.
(DIR) Post #9tZj88OHABI1AI7wg4 by namark@qoto.org
2020-03-31T18:58:37Z
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@LogicalDashI'm curious if you are speculating or sharing personal experience. Are you and artist or know artists that benefit from copyright?In my limited experience there are two general groups of artists: those with established fan base, that would support them regardless, and those without, who mostly earn money by providing service(creating art for a client) or selling physical art (not selling digital art). Because of this I'm under the impression that abolishing copyright will not hurt most artist much, even less so if it is just weakened, which is the negotiation point of the OP. @ajroach42
(DIR) Post #9tZkonwLApBk92yHAm by meta@libranet.de
2020-03-31T19:17:30Z
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@namark @aeveltstra @sir @portpupper Loads of offices offer free coffee, yet people still go to Starbucks.
(DIR) Post #9tZlmrNLWrvqAvEueG by namark@qoto.org
2020-03-31T19:28:23Z
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@byllgrim I think "can" here is meant more like "may"... that's English for you... though no there is at least one other language that does that... but also at least one other language that doesn't...If that's not what got you, then maybe it's the implied notion that while crime is always possible, one should not normalize and legalize what one considers criminal.
(DIR) Post #9tZmSATFRFM1GqhHu4 by byllgrim@mastodon.xyz
2020-03-31T19:35:51Z
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@namark Hm, I didn't consider it like that. Also, I think those normative "should"s are a bit childish, and would prefer "if-then". That final point of yours is something I needa think more about
(DIR) Post #9tZnApllFiSE67efh2 by namark@qoto.org
2020-03-31T19:43:55Z
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@sir @mort To elaborate a bit on why something like GPL will not be necessary if copyright is abolished, and why the problem is not as separate as it seems.Classic free software argument is on this is "you would not hide source without malicious purpose, there is no other incentive". The only argument that was able to stand any kind of ground against that is "I want to protect my copyright". If copyright goes, closed source goes with it, by common sense or common sense turned into law if necessary (but I don't think it would be necessary).
(DIR) Post #9tZoeWGoPkcqGPtjEG by namark@qoto.org
2020-03-31T20:00:26Z
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@codesections Information is valuable. The lack of exclusivity is what makes it immoral to sell. Trade is based on fair exchange. You can argue semantic nuances as much as you want, but that is how an average person sees it, and if you break the rules of exchange you are abusing that person.@sir
(DIR) Post #9tZpFenLgMSZPwpDXc by reykjalin@fosstodon.org
2020-03-31T20:06:06Z
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@sir @newt I think Tom Scott’s video on the YouTube copyright system [0] would be a good addition to this discussion, and I think many of the points he makes can also be applied to software.Super short abstract: the system is broken, but it’s the best we’ve got right now. It should be fixed, but doing so properly is difficult and will take a long time because of how copyright systems can be - and are - abused.I’m inclined to agree with his assessment.[0] https://invidio.us/watch?v=1Jwo5qc78QU
(DIR) Post #9tZpsXvBAkIVOQ20ye by pixelherodev@fosstodon.org
2020-03-31T20:13:08Z
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@sir I agree with a lot of what you said, but I do have a major point of contention (though you've probably heard it): there's a difference between production cost and value. Your post was effectively free to produce. However, there's value to debates, so your post has value. Your conclusion depends on your value system, which others can reasonably disagree with.I completely agree with the idea of limiting copyright, but I haven't spent much time considering it so I'm not sure to what extent.
(DIR) Post #9tZsixXdMUdDor8equ by namark@qoto.org
2020-03-31T20:46:07Z
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@meta I don't see the analogy. You might be a bit out of context. Do the offices offer the full range of Starbucks coffee? Do they offer it to general public in quantities that can satiate the demand? Is drinking coffee in an office that you are not invited to the accepted norm in society? Now if Starbucks offered their full range of products and services either free or paid, that would be an analogy fitting the context here.@aeveltstra @sir @portpupper
(DIR) Post #9tZts3JXMuVoHcRdrc by judgedread@freespeechextremist.com
2020-03-31T20:59:00.356595Z
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@oneway @ThreeOneThreeChris The goal is to grow a right wing movement away from Google's eyes. That means adopting a massive zero tolerance meme that will reduce their access.10% of US internet users have a VPN but those seem to be mostly corporate VPNs. Of those VPN users who are private persons most don't know how to prevent machine fingerprinting.What everyone wants is to retain normal habits. That is more important to them than victory and that is why they always lose.
(DIR) Post #9tZwQ1iK1ZlF4fMjFA by mark@metalhead.club
2020-03-31T21:26:19Z
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@sir #Copyright is the modern equivalent of Enclosure Acts : stealing resources that everyone should freely have access to.
(DIR) Post #9ta3p0yYbaOnhgp0s4 by oneway@oneway.masto.host
2020-03-31T22:50:28Z
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@judgedread @ThreeOneThreeChris right, i get it. i have spent years bldg solutions and lots of $ but you are living in fantasy world on several points.If only 10% of US uses a VPN that proves they dont care about privacy. it is a small ask to get them to use a vpn for THEIR own privacy. asking them to give up youtube is ridiculously huge ask for such people. baby steps. for now use enemy signal to boast our message for free.youtube is just small part of prob. all sites use G analytics.
(DIR) Post #9ta43GUJjBT1rtTLSy by judgedread@freespeechextremist.com
2020-03-31T22:53:04.962356Z
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@oneway @ThreeOneThreeChris If you won't give up Youtube you are not going to impact politics. You are not a serious player.Lenin is the model here. He gave up EVERYTHING but politics. That level of fanaticism is required, at least in the leadership. Followers must obey without question. If the leader commands that all minions throw their smartphones into a blast furnace to be cleansed in the fires of purification, SO BE IT.
(DIR) Post #9ta8bvSqHkKscGZ7kO by oneway@oneway.masto.host
2020-03-31T23:44:09Z
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@judgedread @ThreeOneThreeChris youtube has been co-opted by the right. thei rmodel has been so overloaded with right content that they now have to load every video with 2 minutes of ads to survive. they are killing themselves to cleanse of the virus which is us. we are cancer that is invading every cell of the evil. they keep giving themselves of chemo to survive, which will eventually kill them. they have been put into a damned if you do and double damned if you dont.
(DIR) Post #9ta97jgrazHNMoIANs by judgedread@freespeechextremist.com
2020-03-31T23:49:54.950512Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
@oneway @ThreeOneThreeChris You are clueless. They have completely shadowbanned the right and the police state we live under at this very moment was conditioned and engineered by social media amping up feminized memes and suppressing anything masculine.
(DIR) Post #9ta9VFJuABEU7olQ1I by oneway@oneway.masto.host
2020-03-31T23:54:09Z
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@judgedread @ThreeOneThreeChris shadow banning has nothing to do with it. repository, free bandwidth and streaming platform.
(DIR) Post #9ta9Z9LMKGBikPIzsu by oneway@oneway.masto.host
2020-03-31T23:54:51Z
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@judgedread @ThreeOneThreeChris there is no difference between intel and big tech. they are one and the same with the same agenda.
(DIR) Post #9ta9bkHhwzvlthpr2u by judgedread@freespeechextremist.com
2020-03-31T23:55:20.350028Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@oneway @ThreeOneThreeChris Exchanging perfect 24/7 intel on your real life for 'free bandwidth' is retarded.
(DIR) Post #9ta9gAA3gScNJKMcAC by judgedread@freespeechextremist.com
2020-03-31T23:56:08.259457Z
1 likes, 1 repeats
@oneway @ThreeOneThreeChris We disagree. A normie white guy NSA spook doesn't masturbate to the extermination of white people. Sergey Brin does.
(DIR) Post #9ta9p7QZDWavRFM8Rs by oneway@oneway.masto.host
2020-03-31T23:57:44Z
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@judgedread @ThreeOneThreeChris you are peraching to the choir. my point is that you are naive in your thinking about your expectations for people. you have to be realistic. these are same ppl with smart phones running with facebook and twittter apps running. they do NOT care about this. so then what? deal with reality. use them battering ram.
(DIR) Post #9ta9wtuLMooDpAzimO by judgedread@freespeechextremist.com
2020-03-31T23:59:09.754835Z
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@oneway @ThreeOneThreeChris They're only a battering ram for the administrative state.See: Covid19 reacts.I am providing a blueprint for the BARE MINIMUM of how an effective right wing org would be built from the ground up.If these protocols are not followed every attempt will go the way of the cuckbox.
(DIR) Post #9taA7EEgdtMHlbR0LI by oneway@oneway.masto.host
2020-04-01T00:01:01Z
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@judgedread @ThreeOneThreeChris i am all for leaving big tech behind but gotta have equal product. these ppl will sacrifice nothing but they will leave for greener pasture.
(DIR) Post #9taAA7vQYsuD3zoAJU by judgedread@freespeechextremist.com
2020-04-01T00:01:33.173044Z
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@oneway @ThreeOneThreeChris People who will sacrifice nothing will achieve nothing.
(DIR) Post #9taAYYyfdKgbulyeCe by oneway@oneway.masto.host
2020-04-01T00:05:57Z
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@judgedread @ThreeOneThreeChris true. these ppl dont care about achieving anything except making it through the day will all desired fulfilled. revolutions are won by 1% or .5% not the majority but you have to steer the majority. if you can't win them to your side get them to suffocate the enemy.
(DIR) Post #9taAbDpqhEfbDC7QrQ by oneway@oneway.masto.host
2020-04-01T00:06:26Z
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@judgedread @ThreeOneThreeChris it is like starting a stampede in a western.
(DIR) Post #9taBKidJ2PpFlCwkSm by judgedread@freespeechextremist.com
2020-04-01T00:14:40.336056Z
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@oneway @ThreeOneThreeChris I write to give a heads up to anyone who cares to achieve something. If anyone following along wonders why the right has accomplished nothing, knowing that Google actively disrupts and monitors all right wing organizing via their totalitarian network is a significant factor.Understanding the interception/disruption system is essential.
(DIR) Post #9taBOZXCo7xIhUvkdU by judgedread@freespeechextremist.com
2020-04-01T00:15:22.113640Z
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@oneway @ThreeOneThreeChris The stampede is to beg for the antifa yoke.
(DIR) Post #9taBsA8VnnWmcIURPM by oneway@oneway.masto.host
2020-04-01T00:20:42Z
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@judgedread @ThreeOneThreeChris anyway. it doesnt matter. you are not going to get these ppl to stop. they dont care. that is reality. i am bldg options they can use. for the frogs that want to stay in the pot they best I can do for them is turn the heat up. that is what i do.
(DIR) Post #9tbzkYLz4K3OH6Jg92 by meta@libranet.de
2020-04-01T21:12:52Z
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@namark @aeveltstra @sir @portpupper Some offices do offer Starbucks coffee, yes. And the general public and invites are red herrings to try to obscure the fact that plenty of people who can get free coffee as good as Starbucks, sometimes even Starbucks coffee, will still go to Starbucks, because the company is selling more than just the coffee -- they're offering added value (pleasant surroundings, social space, etc.)Whereas companies selling movies (for example) often subtract value (ads, restrictions on where you can watch the content, and so on).
(DIR) Post #9tc6men8npHcV4y9I0 by namark@qoto.org
2020-04-01T22:33:03Z
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@meta My questions for access and normalization of free office coffee were to show that you have no statistical argument, in case that's what you were trying to present. I think I see what you mean now, and my point was that only added value you can offer with software is warranty. Unless it's something completely unrelated like "buy our binary and get a plush toy of our mascot", but at that point you might as well just sell the mascot, I don't see the point... and I have to admit I do want a plush baby gnu. Also I have a little bit of a problem with the slight (unrelated) implication that people who need space for socializing are pressured into drinking specific brand of coffee by socioeconomic (I guess) norms. If you need a pleasant space you should pay for pleasant space, to people who make spaces pleasant. Not always possible in real world, due to scarcity, but should be in software - there is plenty of space for everyone, and there is no need to invent arbitrary boundaries. @aeveltstra @sir @portpupper
(DIR) Post #9tdvlxPpMaKGnBRqQi by meta@libranet.de
2020-04-02T19:39:03Z
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@namark @aeveltstra @sir @portpupper I wasn't attempting a statistical argument, no. Which providers can scale and which can't isn't really very important when you have a competitive marketplace. It's bad when you have monopolies, though.
(DIR) Post #9tfsIH6ZD3Ewte84XI by DHeadshot@vernunftzentrum.de
2020-04-01T10:34:11.476546Z
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@ajroach42I found my single on a pirate site, yet so far about 10 people have bought it total!@LogicalDash @icedquinn
(DIR) Post #9tfsIHnSdZYF2gCKOW by ajroach42@retro.social
2020-04-01T14:40:59Z
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@DHeadshot @icedquinn @LogicalDash sure, edge cases happen. I think I covered that elsewhere in this thread. No experience is universal. All generalizations are lies. But if we step away from anecdotes and look at trends, an independent single on a pirate site is pretty unlikely to get downloaded. Which, for peer to peer downloads like torrents, means it won't stick around long. A major label release is more likely to be pirated or purchased.
(DIR) Post #9tfsIJllIrNf9zQ01Y by ajroach42@retro.social
2020-04-01T14:43:48Z
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@DHeadshot @icedquinn @LogicalDash For most artists obscurity is a much more significant problem than piracy. And, maybe more importantly, every study I've seen on pirates shows that they're also usually the folks that spend the most money on media. So when someone does pirate something from an independent creator, it can frequently lead to future sales. The way we fund the arts is broken. Media piracy is a symptom of that brokenness, not it's cause.
(DIR) Post #9tfsIKEpYmdIc91DKi by LogicalDash@cybre.space
2020-04-01T14:45:34Z
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@ajroach42 @DHeadshot @icedquinn I pirated The Mandalorian and don't feel bad about itI think it's a bad idea to regard piracy as activism because I've seen a lot of people responding to independent artists who ask to be paid for their downloads by calling them class traitors or whatever
(DIR) Post #9tfsILIlbdNLudrs6i by ajroach42@retro.social
2020-04-01T14:54:35Z
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@LogicalDash @DHeadshot @icedquinn Right. This is what I was saying earlier. If we try to judge independent players and major publishers by the same rules we look like monsters. And major publishers use this vast power disparity to point to all the independent artists that they claim would be hurt by piracy or relaxed copyright laws as a shield to continue to expand their oligopoly. But nuance is hard to convey, so maybe I screwed that up.
(DIR) Post #9tfsIMo00zx8ZnUKQa by LogicalDash@cybre.space
2020-04-01T14:56:35Z
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@ajroach42 @DHeadshot @icedquinn Technically it wasn't you who screwed that up, it was Drew DeVault, who you boostedWhen you lead with "Abolish copyright," nuanced discussion is just not going to followDon't boost stuff like that, please
(DIR) Post #9tfsINX1JbxupQYHbM by ajroach42@retro.social
2020-04-01T15:06:21Z
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@LogicalDash @DHeadshot @icedquinn I will boost whatever I feel like boosting, and I'd thank you not to dictate how I interact with this platform. Where do you get off telling me what I'm allowed to do?
(DIR) Post #9tfsIOZXRjZe3WjoAK by LogicalDash@cybre.space
2020-04-01T15:07:05Z
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@ajroach42 @DHeadshot @icedquinn i'm not dictating shit, i'm just pointing out that your actions have naturally lead to the thread going where it did
(DIR) Post #9tfsIPW1wGMUyw6WKu by ajroach42@retro.social
2020-04-01T15:10:19Z
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@LogicalDash @DHeadshot @icedquinn "don't boost stuff like that" I boosted it. Then I commented on it. Then you ignored most of my commentary to attack the wording of the original post? Modern copyright law is broken and should be dismantled and replaced. If we agree on that, the rest is semantics. If we don't, the rest is useless.
(DIR) Post #9tfsIQOGgbkNh9TpsO by DHeadshot@vernunftzentrum.de
2020-04-03T11:58:01.162507Z
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@ajroach42I didn't expect this many replies when I replied, it must be said...I'm not really an "independent artist" as "artist" doesn't really cover one experimental track. I'm just amused anyone bothered to list it on a piracy site. Interestingly, YouTube are now auto generating videos for it as a "topic", which leads me to wonder if I used it on a stream, would *I* be kicked. Copyright is very broken...@LogicalDash @icedquinn
(DIR) Post #9tfsIQsOsZqlCbZtqK by icedquinn@blob.cat
2020-04-03T18:09:31.093413Z
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@DHeadshot @ajroach42 @LogicalDash would have to be registered with someone who participates in content id.amusingly you can post your own music through one of such internet labels, then use the music in your own videos, and even if your video gets marked to split revenues you still end up getting a percentage because your label claims your own content.this was written about in a video called "copyright amputation" on youtube.