Post 9rV7ftHU5GpRKFxFOS by caseyp@letsalllovela.in
 (DIR) More posts by caseyp@letsalllovela.in
 (DIR) Post #9rV7ftHU5GpRKFxFOS by caseyp@letsalllovela.in
       2020-01-29T17:55:54.699348Z
       
       4 likes, 0 repeats
       
       I like-- understand the "trans people in sports is bad" bit, but I dont understand it as a "first corruption". If you wanted leagues to be fair, you'd have to do a hell of a lot. /They aren't currently fair/. So only jumping to that conclusion once trans people are introduced is just blatant transphobia, but its annoying because I wish people were this motivated to fix problems (sports being unfair, in this case) when it wasn't a minority involved. Why can't we instead kill all the rich to make sports fair or something that sane people would do :umu:
       
 (DIR) Post #9rVEo59GXoMW7yxnsW by abs@satania.space
       2020-01-29T19:03:55.222633Z
       
       1 likes, 0 repeats
       
       @caseyp "Fairness" in sport is super weird anyways. Even just based on genetics, some people have to work less than others to get the same result. Some people do a sport from early childhood on, whereas others come upon it only in their late teens or even later, simply based on their environment. Why is not controlling for these factors fair or unfair? It seems very tough to argue for that without saying "We've always done it that way".
       
 (DIR) Post #9rVEo5heTxrrqd3GTY by caseyp@letsalllovela.in
       2020-01-29T19:15:48.420864Z
       
       0 likes, 0 repeats
       
       @abs It's trivial to argue, actually?There is clearly a difference between genetic lottery and "my daddy has lots of money and got me private lessons 8 hours a day with a professional". In fact, some leagues even tend to be split in order to balance out the genetic factors (ie grouping schools based on population size, for example). But clearly a school of 1000 rich kids has the advantage over 1000 poor kids.Doing sports early on vs late teens is a choice, so it is clearly "fair", in some respects. In the same way, I can simply choose not to practice (which is what you are literally doing).
       
 (DIR) Post #9rVVjNLj91T0Ll8ML2 by thomate@ihatebeinga.live
       2020-01-29T22:07:44.192034Z
       
       0 likes, 0 repeats
       
       @abs @caseyp A lot of sports culture is infused with a hatred of the athletes, usually expressed as a search for "fairness" or sportsmanship. The fairness is presented as platonic; you always need to ask "fair for whom?"Rarely if ever is it fair for the athletes. They're seen as chunks of meat. Once you couch things in those terms, I think the question of trans people in sports becomes simple (yes, of course!). Abs is absolutely right with the class angle, too.Put another way: a socialist society's sport will look fundamentally different from what we see today.
       
 (DIR) Post #9rVVjNhLqclRQpFd2m by epi@ihatebeinga.live
       2020-01-29T22:22:25.566005Z
       
       2 likes, 0 repeats
       
       @thomate @abs @caseyp under space anarcho-communism sports will be BANNED
       
 (DIR) Post #9rVc5MI6MNf9AAIsVM by thomate@ihatebeinga.live
       2020-01-29T23:01:57.001803Z
       
       0 likes, 0 repeats
       
       @epiConsistent socialist anarchists end out as leninists, if the friends of derruti taught us anything.So yeah, under space capitalism, they'll ban sport, I can believe that.@abs @caseyp
       
 (DIR) Post #9rVc5MYPNkhryjvtvE by caseyp@letsalllovela.in
       2020-01-29T23:36:39.108885Z
       
       0 likes, 0 repeats
       
       @thomate @epi @abs get off my timeline, tanky
       
 (DIR) Post #9rVdCSh33R5z06vI9o by mrjunge@outerheaven.club
       2020-01-29T23:49:09.329164Z
       
       1 likes, 0 repeats
       
       @caseyp This is pretty much my stance on the whole debate honestly. It would be interesting for me to get much more in the weeds of "sports ethics" too since sports ethics is basically the ethics of competition: under what conditions is undergoing competition "fair"? Of course this also involves ethics and aesthetics of play, since sports are typically competitive play (well, not that I have a good approximate definition right now)-- and does *play* really care about fairness? Is something play if it's also tied to extrinsic reward? etc. This is fundamental, before we even start any discussion about sports inclusivity-- which I nonetheless already accept as one of my initial values (which transphobes in this debate seemingly do not value quite as much..). All very interesting stuff, of course, tho my ethical research is elsewhere right now. :blobcry: I'd love to hear what other philosophers are saying though in a cursory way.
       
 (DIR) Post #9rVdF1ek2Cj2104C8W by abs@satania.space
       2020-01-29T19:23:24.798964Z
       
       1 likes, 0 repeats
       
       @caseyp What's the difference between being born into good genetics and being born into wealth? Both lie outside the athlete's control.Coming to a sport late isn't necessarily a choice. You first need to even have the idea (and infrastructure) to try a sport before you can decide to take it up. There's a huge difference between having parents who like doing sports (or even that particular sport) themselves and having once who don't for that, for example, so it's not "purely" choice.
       
 (DIR) Post #9rVdKN8dakJW5ZbFBo by caseyp@letsalllovela.in
       2020-01-29T23:50:35.102884Z
       
       1 likes, 0 repeats
       
       @mrjunge Agreed :bunsmile: