Post 9qy8aOMFmh5pIsWWPI by anomaly@radical.town
(DIR) More posts by anomaly@radical.town
(DIR) Post #9quJQs3EquQ5MaS6T2 by anomaly@radical.town
2020-01-11T23:11:23Z
0 likes, 3 repeats
So, there's this concept of "implicit feudalism" in online communities. Essentially, the vast majority of online communities - from old-school forums, to facebook groups, to large platforms like Twitter and Facebook themselves, even to fediverse instances - they're all run as dictatorships by default. It's built into the software - you'll have a top admin who has full, unconstrained power, they might delegate mods who have some limited powers, and anyone else has to listen to what these dictators and lords tell them. We talk about "federating" here in the fediverse, but each individual community - as far as I'm aware of - is a little dictatorship. A federation of dictatorships is not a free society, anymore than the UN, an international body composed of "liberal democracies" and authoritarian regimes is truly democratic. We need a way to start governing online communities through actual forms of democracy. boosts++
(DIR) Post #9quJQsI7xYKU6lPzfs by publius@mastodon.sdf.org
2020-01-11T23:43:12Z
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@anomaly At a certain point, all of these Social Media Entities are reflections & outgrowths of the personality of an individual, or at most a small group, with other people coming in & participating because they see something they like. When you reduce the size of the Entity to the individual, their actions are, I suppose, by definition, democratic, but that's just a kind of limiting case, & I'm not convinced it means anything.
(DIR) Post #9quLojBLgAmIiLkWJ6 by lightweight@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-01-12T00:01:10Z
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@anomaly Interestingly, Plato said the best form of government was a "benign dictatorship"... The problem is finding a benign dictator... I think that communities can have benign dictators when the opportunity for real power or vested interests is limited... which is why I think the Fediverse is our greatest hope. The dictatorship model is forced upon us by the relative scarcity of technically competent people to run communities.
(DIR) Post #9quUP5IJk5wLLwr8YC by lightweight@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-01-12T00:01:25Z
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@anomaly Then, one day, when everyone understands this stuff, we can distribute power more broadly.
(DIR) Post #9quXHmgqoXVpUKXfRQ by lightweight@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-01-12T02:17:05Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@tejrnz @anomaly I'm coming around to a similar conclusion, Tom. Will read the reference you provided with interest.
(DIR) Post #9quoMDibxnxVh74BRQ by greenjon@hub.spaz.org
2020-01-12T05:29:00.811962Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@anomaly One think I like about Matrix is that it can have any number of admins, and none of them are above any other. On the Matrix Rooms that I’m most active on, most everyone is an admin.
(DIR) Post #9qusd1q3mlCnaaoxRQ by lightweight@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-01-12T06:10:14Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@tejrnz @anomaly that's very kind, Tom. I look forward to seeing more of what you have to say for vimself ;) (very good)
(DIR) Post #9qvKJ1MwcSBF3dRyyG by nitox@fosstodon.org
2020-01-12T11:27:49Z
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@anomaly who cares it's dictatorship or democracy if they not do any harm but do a really good and healthy job? The whole computing is done about some component depending from other, the whole system and the world itself is built that way.You can't change this, but you can always delegate responsabilities to more people, so the power is not always on 1 wo/man, and there is multiple Point Of Failures.Separation is not that bad, as long as you always have something to share.
(DIR) Post #9qy8aNakdJ5yvYIaMi by trwnh@mastodon.social
2020-01-13T19:50:44Z
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@anomaly i'm not sure "federation of dictatorships" is exactly correct here, since federation is more about sovereignty. you can be the "dictator" of your own little island, and maybe it's only for you? there's also the implicit delegation of authority from users to admins, since not everyone *wants* authority. what we really need is to maximize freedom of movement to allow moving to different providers if you don't like your current one.
(DIR) Post #9qy8aOMFmh5pIsWWPI by anomaly@radical.town
2020-01-13T19:53:27Z
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@trwnh yeah I mean, I understand this argument, but what if you found a community you really liked, it grew and became it's own thing, and the person who created it just kinda went rogue or changed or was revealed to be bad? Now everyone just has to leave. To me part of the point of democracy, anarchism, socialism, is that people aren't atomized individuals. Communities are real things, collective choices are real things, and they should be made in a democratic and egalitarian fashion, even if you do have freedom of movement and choice (which we have on fedi, and which people say you have in capitalist nation-states but you don't really).
(DIR) Post #9qy8aP4v6cp1XPQC1o by trwnh@mastodon.social
2020-01-13T19:56:23Z
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@anomaly i do agree minimizing the *reliance* on power is generally good, but also governance model is really not the end-all-be-all. look at social.coop or sunbeam.city which are cooperatively run and have also had issues among their communities. sometimes you just want shit to get done.or maybe you don't want a "community" per se, you just want service. that's also valid.
(DIR) Post #9qyFYInQBvqN9bBKTI by douginamug@mastodon.xyz
2020-01-13T21:16:39Z
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@lightweight @tejrnz Gosh, that's quite a long ref, but I'm curious to read something more from the Mises institute, it's been a while.Have either of you read the 'An-aargh-chy' paper? https://www.peterleeson.com/An-arrgh-chy.pdfThis was a very enlightening and empirical investigation into practical democracy for me.
(DIR) Post #9qyFYPdkkHGkNdiCsC by lightweight@mastodon.nzoss.nz
2020-01-13T21:18:01Z
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@douginamug @tejrnz yes - I wasn't immediately able to see the kernel of relevance, I must admit.
(DIR) Post #9r0GZ5tI9BLVgkmy2q by douginamug@mastodon.xyz
2020-01-14T20:23:47Z
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@tejrnz @lightweight I read it :)A nice Bible revision session! And nice to read something pre-WWII.I do wonder what Nock would make of our modern social data scraping! Perhaps not so hard to find the Remnant... or should I say, the Remnant you're looking for.The Remnant concept seems most topical within the climate-collapse frame: those who read the science and understand the implications are preparing in different ways while society churns on.Hmm. Thanks.
(DIR) Post #9r0pfx0H5LlyY13mGe by vishnuvk@mstdn.io
2020-01-15T03:12:38Z
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@publiusI agree; the original post is based on a false equivalence between the instance owner and the users. The admin has full rights to conduct their instance however they want (this right, however, is diluted if they accept and receive donations). The federation allows for every individual to have their own instance, and so has the capability to contain a "democracy". It is just irony that the people chose not to exercise that freedom.@anomaly
(DIR) Post #9r2G2wqobuoUhXDpQW by anomaly@radical.town
2020-01-11T23:19:40Z
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here's an article on this idea an its implications (people get socialized into feudalism/authoritarianism by the internet): https://osf.io/gxu3a/?view_only=11c9e93011df4865951f2056a64f5938
(DIR) Post #9r2G2xBjM9XlkP0X1k by LydiaConwell@social.bau-ha.us
2020-01-12T08:51:14Z
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@anomaly If you read that article, regarding democracy it says "Governance systems that seek to inscribe authority within commonly agreed-upon rules ... generally through the capacity to transfer that authority to someone else.Democratic practices can emerge within feudal technologies, such as when all-powerful moderators feel pressure to respect the values of their communities in how they exert authority."Is this not the fediverse?
(DIR) Post #9r2G2xUAFcHyfZdFlA by KitsuneAlicia@octodon.social
2020-01-13T19:43:42Z
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@LydiaConwell @anomaly It's pretty much everything we've come to expect from capitalism too. There's not one non-feudalistic/authoritarian form of government out there atm because we've all been conditioned to expect that representatives in a congress or parliament is the only way.
(DIR) Post #9r2G2xjPKwTxQqlQWG by KitsuneAlicia@octodon.social
2020-01-13T19:47:41Z
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@LydiaConwell @anomaly We still give them authority to create rules on our behalf, and those rules more often than not, favor the people that seek to oppress us with no repercussions given for this betrayal of our trust by the populace at large.If we wanted, we could leave creating and voting on new laws to ballot initiatives and other directly democratic means and reduce congress/parliament "politicians" to bookkeepers.
(DIR) Post #9r2G2xwWYAyS5Wttxo by KitsuneAlicia@octodon.social
2020-01-13T19:49:27Z
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@LydiaConwell @anomaly It's really not as complex as the capitalists make it out to be. It'd actually serve to simplify laws and regulations, as well as force more universal standards instead of the shitty "means testing" crap that capitalists force on the poorest in order to let the richest have an extra cent or two.
(DIR) Post #9r2G2y9zk5kWlJCexc by shellkr@mstdn.io
2020-01-15T19:42:49Z
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@KitsuneAlicia @LydiaConwell @anomaly In Sweden most politicians have regular jobs. Only the top politicians have it full time. You both get paid and have a right to take leave from work to do political or union work. Like tending a meeting. It's kinda like a hobby and many don't really have time for it. They chose to do other things instead.On G+ you could have co-creators. A problem on internet is trust. It takes time build. So you need at least a body that takes care of spam.
(DIR) Post #9r2Go9Zf7hGTlwhxYm by ebel@moytura.org
2020-01-12T08:59:29Z
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@anomaly you are putting into words what I've been thinking about lately. 🙂
(DIR) Post #9r2Go9ouD1SSXDq8Js by holly@social.v.st
2020-01-12T10:59:40Z
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@ebel @anomaly You can create an instance of one.. just yourself, and federate with whomever you want. There are people who do this. I’m currently on an instance of two. But you also have the choice to pass the labor of managing an instance onto someone else and join a larger instance if you choose. And you don’t have to stay on a large instance with an admin you disagree with. This is pretty anti-authoritarian imho.
(DIR) Post #9r2ISaW2TT1GrqrF9U by shellkr@mstdn.io
2020-01-15T20:09:51Z
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@anomaly @trwnh Users doesn't really do the work so you can't really say it is a feudalism. They utilize the services and others do the work. The workers of the fediverse is really the ones in power.The organization you suggest would mean those who do not work will decide over those who do. That in reality is the order of dictatorship.The biggest question though is the one about trust. People take all kinds of liberties when they are not their physical body.
(DIR) Post #9rzwh8737ObY6Czhc8 by mlncn@social.coop
2020-02-13T14:48:51Z
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@shellkr @KitsuneAlicia @LydiaConwell @anomaly Yes, we need a group which decides what information is high enough quality for everyone to see, in order to have the baseline common knowledge needed for any kind of democracy.And like people still having regular jobs but given time and money to engage in politics, this group shouldn't be a separate, specialized class.On how: https://social.coop/@mlncn/103648509626662975
(DIR) Post #9s0Tzh1DNI523diyI4 by elmiko@mastodon.technology
2020-02-13T21:02:00Z
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thanks @shellkr , this is really thought provoking to me.on some level i'm having this image of the power-hungry sysadmin hobgoblin who lives inside me shouting "yes! finally the workers have the power!".but on a deeper level, when i think about the nature of the social relation created by a group of people who create a platform for others to use, and the related power dynamics, i'm just fascinated. is there an equivalent in meatspace?@anomaly @trwnh
(DIR) Post #9uAlcJexEXVbgsdALQ by trwnh@mastodon.social
2020-01-13T19:58:33Z
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@anomaly i think the software is not actually that limited, it's just a social issue. the "admins and mods" model of power is what we have because power is defined by privilege. fundamentally it's about the authority to take action, which can be managed however you want.there's no getting around the social aspect of it.
(DIR) Post #9uAlcJuuHEGkUM5uD2 by shellkr@mstdn.io
2020-04-18T15:50:48Z
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@trwnh @anomaly I would say the fediverse is as free as is possible. The privilege of decision making is more about who want to put in the work.. Same as I can not order you to work you can not order me. This goes the same when it comes to an admin. As an idle user you must either earn the trust or put in the work on your own instance.. No one can force anyone... which is as it should be.