Post 9qtWvKdkEFbAxnQI7c by technomancy@icosahedron.website
(DIR) More posts by technomancy@icosahedron.website
(DIR) Post #9qSlCLSVKWlTOgHwDQ by cwebber@octodon.social
2019-12-29T16:31:26Z
2 likes, 1 repeats
Programmers should plan for lower pay https://www.jefftk.com/p/programmers-should-plan-for-lower-pay" Programmers are paid surprisingly well given how much work it is to become one... we don't really understand why programmers are paid this well, and especially why this has persisted."
(DIR) Post #9qSlCM590rfnKWMnRY by amsomniac@mastodon.mit.edu
2019-12-29T16:34:19Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cwebber how much you get paid seems pretty proportional to how much you help US empire
(DIR) Post #9qSlCMyRhFuQ62Exdo by cwebber@octodon.social
2019-12-29T16:35:28Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@amsomniac lots of other non-programming jobs that help the US empire more but which don't pay as much (eg serving in army/navy/etc)
(DIR) Post #9qSlCNcVIJx46Gyx4y by amsomniac@mastodon.mit.edu
2019-12-29T16:40:17Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cwebber I guess it depends on what you include-- you can make a lot of money automating union-busting at uber, but that's not US empire, exactly. VCs will fund unprofitable ideas if they think it'll help somehow down the road (or shut down something they dislike now) vs like alduril, which is paying, as far as I can tell, "only" 90k-ish?
(DIR) Post #9qSlCOJOiqGMFJ3CwC by cwebber@octodon.social
2019-12-29T16:41:32Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@amsomniac 90k is a heck of a lot of money, approximately 2x what most people make https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States
(DIR) Post #9qSlCOysEdRKJwSKaO by feld@bikeshed.party
2019-12-29T16:42:30.824128Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
90k is breadcrumbs when you consider cost of living
(DIR) Post #9qSmlx2tfsH23oqwWu by toast@toast.cafe
2019-12-29T17:00:10.377672Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@cwebberCEOs are paid surprisingly well given how little they actually do, we really don't understand why CEOs are paid this well, and especially why this has persisted.on a more serious note"amount of self-sacrifice" is a ridiculous metricno job should require sacrificing yourself, and other jobs requiring this is something to be improvedfurther, lots of programming positions *do* require self-sacrifice, talk to any game developera much better metric (as an example), is "impact"a good developer (as opposed to a bad developer) can save/make a company billions, and positively affect millions of people in a single hour of worka lawyer, similarly, could win a precedential case that affects every life in that country from that point onwardan MD (non-researcher) would only improve a few families' lives an hour at a time, which isn't insignificant, but a much smaller impact overall (though indispensable (i.e invariably high demand), which is why *they* get paid well)
(DIR) Post #9qSoDphIglNTKgbt5s by cwebber@octodon.social
2019-12-29T16:42:50Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@feld which means most people are living on half of breadcrumbs
(DIR) Post #9qSoDq5lDowYYY3QDg by feld@bikeshed.party
2019-12-29T17:16:23.821769Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
not always true; often different circumstances. it's all relative in my experience. when you have millions you tend to have free time AND money. everyone else does notlow income:- cheap housing- few luxuries in life- likely live close to work or short commute because literally cannot afford otherwise- maybe work multiple jobs, little free time- diet is terrible, which grates on your healthhigher income:- more expensive housing because it's more expensive where your job is- likely more expensive vehicle because if you commute you absolutely need something reliable. commute eats up your free time.- working 40+ hours at the job, probably lots of overtime or not if salaried; job seems to have no boundaries or work/life balance- better diet, but you're paying out the ass for it because you don't have time to cook for yourselfetc etcit's all relative. you end up with nice things but you're not really healthier or doing better. obviously there are extremes like homelessness but you can see what I mean.where I live the cost of living is low, but my income is somewhere around 4-5x the median around here. I keep my housing cheap because I know housing/property is generally a scam. I have two electric cars that most people couldn't afford, but reliability is tantamount with my wife's 25 min commute to a cafe we own and my other car was acting up and old; I can't in good conscience put money into a car that isn't electric in 2019. (and lol small businesses make NO money in this economy).by the way I don't have health insurance (soon! via my S-Corp, which is insane) because if you're self employed like we are it is ~$1200/mo for good insurance through the exchangemy wife is gone before I wake up in the morning and combined with a 2hr workout she's not home until about 6:30pm. so I get to see her awake for 2.5hrs ( until about 9pm) blacks she blacks out. 6 days a week, she's only off on Mondays but I'm working on mondays. and I'm not generally done with my own work until 5-6pm anyway. so where does that leave free time for chores, shopping, cooking, leisure? honesty considering maid service to clean my condo. I probably spend $2500+/mo on food because healthy food is expensive and if I want to have more time to spend with her I buy food instead of cook my own.in my experience more money comes with more responsibility and generally a lack of free time which complicates things further. but if I want to have any hope of a retirement, that's the game I have to play.it's a goddamn rat race of more money and more consumption and few people are winning the game of life and getting to enjoy the experiences life has to offer or share in meaningful company with the ones they love.we need a major cultural shift in this country.(btw I love what I do, and she could choose to not work and we'd be fine and probably happier because of more free time but she's fulfilling her dreams whilst having them crushed by this economy. and she does NOT want a housewife lifestyle.)I think the biggest thing when I look around at strangers, friends, and family -- including family on SNAP -- is that we mostly have the same struggles except I get to avoid eating processed trash 24/7 and I'll have a retirement.money doesn't make your stresses go away it just moves them to a new column you have to worry about or if you fail in your career you'll fall back to the old stresses.idk, that's a weird long rant but outside those literally dying in poverty it's my experience that we're all victims of runaway capitalism
(DIR) Post #9qSogxnndNfarpXZxY by moonman@shitposter.club
2019-12-29T17:21:40.538333Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@toast the first couple comments are better than the article
(DIR) Post #9qT1M5vLXdK3NZRwvI by deutrino@mstdn.io
2019-12-29T18:32:34Z
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@feld lol @ expecting a retirement plan based on the capitalist casino to exist / mean anything by the time most GenXers & younger will be of age to theoretically cash it in@cwebber
(DIR) Post #9qT1M6JS60bYaKjCUq by feld@bikeshed.party
2019-12-29T19:43:34.154457Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
it's the only hope right now, so you gotta just roll with it until we get some massive changes pushed through. I just don't like how we wait until things are terrible. America is very reactionary, never proactive (except war)."Americans can always be trusted to do the right thing, once all other possibilities have been exhausted.”
(DIR) Post #9qtWlQs2D2CXOJO29Q by technomancy@icosahedron.website
2019-12-29T17:04:47Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cwebber one of the biggest factors that the post doesn't mention is that no one has a way of measuring how skilled a programmer is; everyone calibrates pay grades based on gut feelings rather than data
(DIR) Post #9qtWlRJgYEJqm4K7FY by cwebber@octodon.social
2019-12-29T17:12:47Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@technomancy excuse me we have a perfectly tuned system for figuring out your worth as a programmer, kthxplease solve this obscure programming problem in this programming language you don't use live on this whiteboard while I stare at you sweating
(DIR) Post #9qtWoILENPj3o7PLjU by rick_777@cybre.space
2019-12-29T17:17:21Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@cwebberI see your whiteboard test, I raise you:Please create this software suite in this obscure programming framework you've never used and we need to have it by N days according to this terribly done estimate made for (someone with years of experience) in mind.We also accounted for zero hours of testing and debugging.@technomancy
(DIR) Post #9qtWvKNnBYq2AJxYG0 by Lofenyy@mastodon.technology
2019-12-29T17:43:34Z
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@technomancy @cwebber I mean, I know a guy who was a sysadmin for an old Unix machine that they refused to pay him more to admin. He ended up quitting and now they can't find another admin. Sometimes it's more than just a gut feeling.
(DIR) Post #9qtWvKdkEFbAxnQI7c by technomancy@icosahedron.website
2019-12-29T17:55:52Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Lofenyy @cwebber I don't understand; sounds like the same thing
(DIR) Post #9qtWvKthGwMJlGt1zE by Lofenyy@mastodon.technology
2019-12-29T18:01:12Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@technomancy @cwebber You may have a gut feeling that a programmer/admin is only worth minimum wage. However, you'll soon find out that's not the case if you were to try and hire one.
(DIR) Post #9qtWwhjLrfaarnhTA8 by technomancy@icosahedron.website
2019-12-29T18:04:29Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@Lofenyy sure; I mean, my point was that the pay is never based on data about the skills of the person being paid.
(DIR) Post #9qtWwi3CfrT7rMzK6a by Lofenyy@mastodon.technology
2019-12-29T18:08:36Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@technomancy It never really is, for all jobs.
(DIR) Post #9qtWzOIWZUMHSxQu24 by darius@friend.camp
2019-12-29T17:06:05Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@cwebber I've been thinking about this for months, ever since my husband started working as an EMT (an actually socially necessary job!) and making 15 an hour.
(DIR) Post #9qtWzOomdYA950WfJY by mbybee@mastodon.social
2019-12-29T23:26:50Z
0 likes, 0 repeats
@darius @cwebber So your thinking is not that EMTs should be paid a lot more? 🤔
(DIR) Post #9qtWzP55evCrta9gjQ by darius@friend.camp
2019-12-29T23:32:06Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@mbybee @cwebber I think EMTs should be paid more and programmers should be paid less. Not sure how you came to your conclusion from what I said.
(DIR) Post #9qtX2dO8vBHd8abjCC by pnathan@social.seattle.wa.us
2019-12-29T19:34:42Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@cwebber Hard disagree. Programming has almost no capital investment, and very good returns on a successful product. Entire industries get downsized from the effects of programming. Enormous sums are made by the VCs and institutional investors. That justifies the pay- along with a competitive job market.But that doesn't negate the reality that there are structural efforts to reduce compensation and SWEs should manage risk there.
(DIR) Post #9qtX65n1mYLO5jtch6 by lordbowlich@hackers.town
2019-12-29T21:36:48Z
3 likes, 0 repeats
@cwebber In my ten years now working professionally I've seen a massive increase in the complexity of tasks expected for a programmer.2008, you could still find good FT work just fixing up client's Wordpress site and writing some plugins in PHP and a smattering of Javascript. That was easy entry-level work that has almost completely dried up as people moved on to various SAAS offerings or just rely on a Facebook page.The feeling to me is that us existing SWE built systems to pull the ladder up behind us. If you weren't on that ladder when it went up you now have a much harder time scaling your skills to the new ground floor everyone is working on -- Javascript SPAs etc.I'm scared that the next ladder is being built right now, and how do I find it and get on it before I get left behind?
(DIR) Post #9qtXzXAbgUPUwAMU7c by cwebber@octodon.social
2019-12-29T21:38:21Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@lordbowlich I think learning fundamentals can keep you more "eternally fresh / malleable". SICP is a good place to start.Main problem with that route is that you can learn enough to realize how terrible everything is, and become grouchy...
(DIR) Post #9qtYFb2v2c4BakQPQ0 by lordbowlich@hackers.town
2019-12-29T21:41:21Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@cwebber Isn't SICP one of those infamous books that everyone has a copy of, but no one has read. 😜 Certainly my copy of Art of Computer Science is occupying that space on my desk right now.
(DIR) Post #9qtYGV1mu0R5DSKIQi by cwebber@octodon.social
2019-12-29T21:45:30Z
2 likes, 0 repeats
@lordbowlich I've gone through it!HOW TO ACTUALLY GO THROUGH SICP (a tutorial): - Maybe go through The Little Schemer First. Not strictly necessary! - First, read over a section in SICP. Don't spend too long if you get confused, just read it - Now, watch the lecture https://archive.org/details/SICP_4_ipod - Now, read the section again and try to enter in some of the exercisesNow you're finally going through SICP! (It took me about 3 years of on / off again to make it through.)
(DIR) Post #9quYk2nkbe4pWEoC7E by emsenn@tenforward.social
2020-01-12T02:23:54Z
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@cwebber (What's SICP?) @lordbowlich
(DIR) Post #9quYk30rosZKAuwfYm by clacke@libranet.de
2020-01-12T02:29:48Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@emsenn @cwebber @lordbowlich The Wizard Book, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicp , one of the best books on programming ever. I was lucky enough to have it as course literature.In my boxes of books I have Knuth and also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concepts,_Techniques,_and_Models_of_Computer_Programming , both of which I'll probably get around to reading once I retire or semi-retire.
(DIR) Post #9quZRrkV3ms1yxBSlM by phoe@functional.cafe
2020-01-12T02:32:30Z
1 likes, 0 repeats
@emsenn It is the subject of a massive amount of memes about anime girls holding a certain programming book, as well as the classic "Have you read your SICP today?" and the https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdj6deraQ6k inspired by Touhou.@cwebber @lordbowlich